skype first time - ground rules for toddlers?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

The ex now wants to Skype.  Phone calls have been irritating because he always has a litany of complaints - I 'interfered' in the calls, for instance, if I tried to hold the phone for the kids (who are very young).  Ex sometimes also likes to call and then not say anything for a long time, so the kids don't even know he's on.  Ergh.

I have avoided answering the question.  I said there will need to be ground rules.

Any suggestions for how long, and any other ground rules?  Once we start on this, there's no going back.

[momtara]

The ex now wants to Skype.  Phone calls have been irritating because he always has a litany of complaints - I 'interfered' in the calls, for instance, if I tried to hold the phone for the kids (who are very young).  Ex sometimes also likes to call and then not say anything for a long time, so the kids don't even know he's on.  Ergh.

I have avoided answering the question.  I said there will need to be ground rules.

Any suggestions for how long, and any other ground rules?  Once we start on this, there's no going back.

[Turkish]

The mom of D2 and S5 wanted that. I said no. Your Ex and mine are the ones with the object constancy issue. Though of course our children affect our emotions, they aren't responsible for them.

She asked again when she left overseas for 11 days on a vacation which turned into a honeymoon. I told her that this wasn't a necessary trip and it was her choice to go on it. I told her which days we'd be available (10 hours behind her) and to call, that I would answer, but she only called once.

She tried again last night (an unnecessary call, I wasn't sure if it was her or if D2 asked to call me). She implied it would be easier to show me what S5 was drawing. I let her Skype comment slide by without responding.

The possible twist in your situation is if he gets the kids to ask you for him. Why do you hold the phone, because the kids will start punching buttons and hang up on him? D2 used to do that.

[livednlearned]

Can you just tell your ex no?

[momtara]

Livedandlearned, you made me laugh.

That's too easy!

I hold the phone because the kids drop it, accidentally hang up, etc.  They are toddlers so they don't really have much patience for the phone.

Maybe I will tell ex that this is something to discuss in front of the parent coordinator.

There's nothing in our agreement about it.  LnL, you are right.  I think I am going to put him off, at least.

[livednlearned]

Livedandlearned, you made me laugh.

That's too easy!

I'm glad you can laugh  I think I went a whole year without laughing. I remember laughing one night at dinner with friends and they all stopped talking like I had burped at the table or something. My face felt weird! It had been a long time using those muscles. I didn't even realize how long it had been until friends pointed it out.

Skype and Google Hangout multiply the communication grief by a hundred, in my experience. Both of those systems used to crash my computer, and of course I was accused of doing it on purpose. N/BPDx also did this thing where he kinda made S13 stay on longer than he wanted to. N/BPDx would start cooking and S13 felt like he had to sit there like he was at his dad's, watching him in the kitchen. Anytime S13 said he had to go, N/BPDx would say "tell your mother to go to hell."

And on and on. I got messages after like, "S13 looked very tired and undernourished. He has dark circles under his eyes and was yawning. I have repeatedly asked you to put him to bed at a reasonable hour each night."

He would make also make comments like, "I see you have new furniture. I hope you enjoy everything I am buying for you at my expense."

Fortunately, my PC put an end to all that. She had strong opinions about kids being with the parents they are with, and not using technology to blur the lines. It was a relief to end those calls. 

[momtara]

Yeah, all those things are what I'm afraid of.

"Both of those systems used to crash my computer, and of course I was accused of doing it on purpose."

Oh, my ex has solved that.  He claims he has already talked to Skype and they said there should be NO problems on my computer!  hahaha.

[livednlearned]

Oh, my ex has solved that.  He claims he has already talked to Skype and they said there should be NO problems on my computer!  hahaha.

Then make sure he talks to AT&T and Time Warner or whoever your provider is, and sorts that out too. He should probably call Microsoft and Apple too, just to be sure.

[Turkish]

Fortunately, my PC put an end to all that. She had strong opinions about kids being with the parents they are with, and not using technology to blur the lines.

This is a good line to use. I'll keep it in mind for next time. "According to professional opinion... ."

[livednlearned]

Fortunately, my PC put an end to all that. She had strong opinions about kids being with the parents they are with, and not using technology to blur the lines.

This is a good line to use. I'll keep it in mind for next time. "According to professional opinion... ."

It may be age-dependent, though. My son was 11 when we had a PC. 

[Turkish]

My T, also a child counselor, felt it wasn't necessary. His words would be, "the children aren't responsible for her feelings."

I saw D2 last night, yet she called me this morning. I still don't feel the need to skype. Opening that door might not be good, as the BPD/npdOP can take advantage of it, as in the story of your ex in the kitchen  

[momtara]

I predict that he 'already talked to them.'

I wouldn't completely rule out Skype, as I may want to use it when he's got the kids some day - always have to keep the reverse in mind.  But I will proceed cautiously.

[momtara]

He clarified that FaceTime would be ok.  That sounds easier - it's just seeing the kids' face on the phone, rather than tying up my computer.  Anyone have misgivings about that?  I still will set ground rules in advance. 

[GaGrl]

Think about those ground rules. Will you hold the phone for them the entire conversation? What if the children are done and he is not? If the children hold the phone so you aren't accused of controlling the conversation, what happens when they put the phone down and wander away? How many days per week?

[Turkish]

FaceTime is still a video call.

[livednlearned]

One of the things that is hard for us is negotiating what seems reasonable, knowing that reasonable will likely be exploited by someone with BPD. People who are controlling and manipulative are likely to use even innocuous things like nightly calls to stay negatively engaged and keep you on your heels.

What if you agree to upload asynchronous videos of your kids to a password-protected video sharing site.

[Nope]

One of the things that is hard for us is negotiating what seems reasonable, knowing that reasonable will likely be exploited by someone with BPD. People who are controlling and manipulative are likely to use even innocuous things like nightly calls to stay negatively engaged and keep you on your heels.

What if you agree to upload asynchronous videos of your kids to a password-protected video sharing site.

We had to change the call time this past weekend because SD11 was going to a friend's house to sleep over and DH didn't feel it was appropriate to make SD11 do the mandated call at the friend's house in the morning. He texted his ex about the change and got angry responses about how he isn't allowed to block access and that was blocking her access. She ignored the part of the order that says calls need to be worked out around the kid's schedules and then said that only applies to their after school activities.    If you decide to allow Facetime be prepared for anything he liked about it to become the "new rule" that you can't ever take away. (Well, you can, but be prepared to have to potentially explain yourself in court.)

As for the idea of video uploads, I thought about doing that for the kid's mom, but then I thought it might be triggering rather than helpful. And even if it wasn't triggering, again there is yhe problem of the "new rule" mentality.

[Rubies]

Don't even start with it!   Xh gave DD a much needed laptop for Christmas a few years ago, which of course had Skype so they could "keep in touch" since she never answered her cell phone.  The poor kid couldn't get online to do her school work without him trying to pop in her face every time she opened it.  We had it removed.

There was my time, and there was his time.  DD did not appreciate him attempting to intrude into our space.  It's MORE than just a place, it's head space and sanctuary.

Really Momtara, let the toddlers push buttons, hang up the phone and leave it on the floor.  Pick it up, block his number and put it away, end of phone call, you're done.  He's your kids' playmate.

[momtara]

My fear is, then next time they're at his place, I will try to call them and HE may block the call, etc., etc., and claim the kids dropped the phone.

But as our last parent coordinator said, "He will anyway."

[Rubies]

My fear is, then next time they're at his place, I will try to call them and HE may block the call, etc., etc., and claim the kids dropped the phone.

But as our last parent coordinator said, "He will anyway."

So why do you need to call your kids while they are having Dad Time?  That's Tara time for you.  Go do something good and healthy for you that does not involve your xh or your kids.

[Swiggle]

I feel for you momtara. The phone thing was a pain in the a$$ in the beginning for us. Maybe my experience will help you or give you some other ideas...

My kids were D7 and S3 when we divorced. In the agreement it stated that the parent that did not have the kids was allowed one phone call per day as agreeable with the parents and kids were allowed to call the other parent whenever they wanted. Things have changed a few times as the years went on.

In the beginning Ex and I agreed that whoever didn't have the kids would initiate the call. Most times he would not call them at all, I actually still have phone call logs from the first 12 months. He would accuse me of not calling them, so I started documenting... .just in case. There were times I would get busy and by the time I though of it, it was to late but that didn't happen often.

Then I suggested that whoever had the kids would have them call the other parent so that it would not interfere with what they might be doing. I did this because so many times I would call them and he wouldn't return my call and claim they had been busy. This was PITA to because as the kids got older, things were more busy and sometimes we would really just forget. They wouldn't think of it and quite frankly neither would I. He would get so angry (I think it triggered him because, if they weren't calling, in his mind it meant none of us were thinking about him) if the kids would forget to call or I would forget to have them call. Sometimes I would mention "hey call daddy" and they would shrug it off, they didn't want to" I stopped pushing. My DD had a phone and was capable of calling. I realized that no matter what I did he would roadblock, wouldn't reciprocate and do what he wanted anyway.

At some point a year or more back. Dad made it very clear to the kids that they "needed" to call him. His excuse was that he didn't want to interrupt them if they were busy. If they would forget to call he would send me hateful texts (but only sometimes) and then make the kids feel bad. But you know what he didn't do in those instances? Pick up his phone and call them! I didn't get it, if it was so important to talk with them why not call them? Well it was a control thing.

A few times the kids would say we have to call daddy, he said he won't call because he might interrupt what we are doing with you. I simply started replying "daddy is free to call whenever he wants to talk to you, if we are available we'll answer and if not we will call back" I made sure at pick up once that I stated this directly to dad in front of the kids. I wanted there to be no question that he could tell them I said he can't call.

Now I knew with each of these situations there would be the chance that dad would retaliate and obstruct them talking to me. So I had a convo with the kids that went something like this. When you guys are with dad I want you to have the best time you can and get as much dad time as you need. sometimes when mom calls you might not want to talk to me and that is ok, I know your just enjoying time with dad. So how about we agree on what you guys want and let me tell you how I feel... .of course I miss you when your at dad's and like calling to ask about your day but from now on I may not call you all the time. If something comes up that I really want to say I'll call, if not we'll talk when your back with me in 3 days. Now if at any time you want to call me you can, I won't mind and if I'm not available i'll call you back. As always when your with me, you can call dad whenever you need to and daddy is welcome to call here if he wants. I don't want you to ever feel pressured to call/talk to me when you don't want to or can't at the time.

Boy did that convo have a huge impact on the kids! From that moment things changed, with the phone... .ex had not control over me about the phone. And I let go of being worried that I might not get "my" phone time when they were with him. It was hard at first but it gave us so much to talk about when they came home because we hadn't already talked about it over the phone. The kids were more relaxed because I gave them permission to have one less thing to stress about which was calling/talking to me. They still get it from dad sometimes but I can't control that, I can only control not making the phone thing a big deal for them. I think this helps them learn also that they should have a say because it isn't there job to call a parent and be responsible for their emotional health.

I know your kids a younger but you could certainly reframe a conversation that they could understand about phone time. When my ex realized his antics weren't getting to me any longer and that I wasn't all up in arms about not getting to talk to the kids he stopped playing games with not answering, not calling back, saying the kids didn't want to talk to me or whatever. It was so nice.

Funny thing now he rarely ever calls them when they are with me. Every once in a blue moon he'll make a point to call each night then for weeks he won't talk to them. I often wonder during those times he calls if he is low on supply and needs the kids to stroke his ego. The other thing he does is sometimes instead of just calling, he'll text and say have the kids call me. It's like it makes him feel important if the kids do the initiating. I usually ignore those texts unless he has tried calling and we couldn't answer for some reason. 

[momtara]

Those stories are all so helpful.  Thanks.  I left the burden on him because yeah, I don't want to be accused of not calling.  He's gotta call.  Usually he does.

I sent him an email last night saying that I want to see our calls go more smoothly for a little longer before we go to video, and also we should set ground rules.  I do feel like a bit of a hardass, because he dropped the idea of Skype and just wants Facetime, which is just pretty much him seeing the kids' faces on my phone.  Still makes me a wee bit nervous as it's a bit of a privacy invasion.  However, he has so little parenting time that I can understand him wanting to see their faces.  Plus, they like to show him things they're making with Legos and sometimes they just mumble and it's even hard to tell which kid is talking, so Facetime would help in that respect.  I just want to set a few ground rules first.

I heard a lot about SKype from people.  Anyone have qualms about Facetime?

[livednlearned]

I heard a lot about SKype from people.  Anyone have qualms about Facetime?

It's splitting hairs 

[Swiggle]

Those stories are all so helpful.  Thanks.  I left the burden on him because yeah, I don't want to be accused of not calling.  He's gotta call.  Usually he does.

I sent him an email last night saying that I want to see our calls go more smoothly for a little longer before we go to video, and also we should set ground rules.  I do feel like a bit of a hardass, because he dropped the idea of Skype and just wants Facetime, which is just pretty much him seeing the kids' faces on my phone.  Still makes me a wee bit nervous as it's a bit of a privacy invasion.  However, he has so little parenting time that I can understand him wanting to see their faces.  Plus, they like to show him things they're making with Legos and sometimes they just mumble and it's even hard to tell which kid is talking, so Facetime would help in that respect.  I just want to set a few ground rules first.

I heard a lot about SKype from people.  Anyone have qualms about Facetime?

If this were me talking I would want someone to say to me... .swiggle is it your responsibility to bend and twist because he only has x parenting time, Are there concrete things he could be doing to help for him to have more parenting time that he isn't doing and is it your job to feel badly he doesn't see them that often and to help him feel better by seeing them?


I feel that sometimes things like this should happen more organically, does that make sense? Like if he truly wanted to do facetime with the kids (for the right reasons), wouldn't he just do it, instead of asking? It would be his choice to initiate and your choice to accept or decline. We know the NPs don't ask for things like this out of the kindness of their heart, I think they ask as a means to elicit reactions and engagement so it isn't really about Skype or facetime but another thing to engage you on.

Without even having a conversation with him about rules and what not, you could try it once or twice and if it doesn't work then you don't keep doing it, if it works and they kids are more engaged and there is less stress on your part with the phone interactions then great. It feels like it doesn't need to be a conversation between the two of you.

[momtara]

Yeah - Well, I think we both have to turn it on to do it.  But no, he's not doing what he should be doing if he wants more parenting time.  He's got to prove he can handle the phone calls better than he has been, before I use Facetime.  No whining about me "interfering" just because he's in a bad mood.

I do think Facetime is much less of an interference than Skype, which would require me to sit the kids at my computer.  That said, I'm saying no until he proves it will be smooth sailing.

[livednlearned]

I'm saying no until he proves it will be smooth sailing.

This seems like a good plan. Reinforce positive behavior.

[momtara]

He responds with an email saying that his lawyer says all of our guidelines pertaining to phone calls pertain to video calls, and I can't restrict access.  He always claims his ideas are coming from a lawyer.  For so long I used to believe it.  I doubt he talked to his lawyer at all.

[Turkish]

He responds with an email saying that his lawyer says all of our guidelines pertaining to phone calls pertain to video calls, and I can't restrict access.  He always claims his ideas are coming from a lawyer.  For so long I used to believe it.  I doubt he talked to his lawyer at all.

"That's hearsay, ExH."

He probably wouldn't get it 

[Rubies]

He responds with an email saying that his lawyer says all of our guidelines pertaining to phone calls pertain to video calls, and I can't restrict access.  He always claims his ideas are coming from a lawyer.  For so long I used to believe it.  I doubt he talked to his lawyer at all.

He needs to stop occupying your time and produce the court order specifying his bs.  He will either stop it or go for the court order.  Print out his emails, texts and phone logs to show how much of your time he is taking demanding the children perform tasks they are not yet capable of doing.   Let the judge explain it to him for you.

[momtara]

agreed.  i spend so much time trying to figure out how to respond to him that i don't spend as much on the kids or myself.  sometimes it takes me over an hour to figure out how to respond.

[Rubies]

agreed.  i spend so much time trying to figure out how to respond to him that i don't spend as much on the kids or myself.  sometimes it takes me over an hour to figure out how to respond.

You don't need to respond at all, or jump through any of his hoops.  Get on with your life and parenting your biological children.