Is 'no more cold sex' a boundary?

[vortex of confusion]

I think that anyone living with s pwBPD had been subjected to coercion in so many areas of our lives. Why expect the sex life to be different? I perfectly well why one would want the sex life to be different, for obvious reasons.

My experience is that everything is a fight for a pwBPD, until a different situation has been established. Especially if there is an obvious problem, or even a "complaint".

If you are going to try and establish a situation where there is no guilt-trip, no coaxing, no sulking (i e abuse) before fun-time, then i think you end up with two options:

1. Scheduled sex.

2. Sex with a non BPD person.

Are you implying that our only options are to accept the abuse or leave? If the situation were to involve hitting or screaming? What would members be advised to do? Would they be advised to accept it or would they be advised to set boundaries to protect themselves and stop the abuse?

I may be misunderstanding the lessons. There is a lesson on Surviving Confrontation and Disrespect: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913191#msg913191

Lots of good stuff there!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[hergestridge]

I think that anyone living with s pwBPD had been subjected to coercion in so many areas of our lives. Why expect the sex life to be different? I perfectly well why one would want the sex life to be different, for obvious reasons.

My experience is that everything is a fight for a pwBPD, until a different situation has been established. Especially if there is an obvious problem, or even a "complaint".

If you are going to try and establish a situation where there is no guilt-trip, no coaxing, no sulking (i e abuse) before fun-time, then i think you end up with two options:

1. Scheduled sex.

2. Sex with a non BPD person.

Are you implying that our only options are to accept the abuse or leave? If the situation were to involve hitting or screaming? What would members be advised to do? Would they be advised to accept it or would they be advised to set boundaries to protect themselves and stop the abuse?

I may be misunderstanding the lessons. There is a lesson on Surviving Confrontation and Disrespect: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56206.msg913191#msg913191

Lots of good stuff there!

you made a post where you made a definition of abuse very different from "hitting and screaming". And i'm not saying you should accept your BPD partner as he/she is, but it's good to have realistic expectations.

[sweetheart]

For me there is an importance distinction to be made between sexual behaviour that is coercive and sexual behaviour that is emotionally immature, needs led, and lacking intimate finesse.

Again for me any abuse whether it's linked to sex, aggression, ST, swearing or verbal threats when combined with BPD can of course be difficult to move beyond because of FOG and maybe FOO issues. I don't believe it is a separate issue in and of itself as much as it is a part of the disorder for which the skills and tools for dealing with it will be the same.

[vortex of confusion]

you made a post where you made a definition of abuse very different from "hitting and screaming". And i'm not saying you should accept your BPD partner as he/she is, but it's good to have realistic expectations.

I am not defining abuse. I am providing links to information sources that define abuse.

Here is a message that lists all lot of the different types of abuse:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=61403.msg580701#msg580701

This isn't about accepting the BPD partner. This is about protecting oneself from abuse. Period.

One cannot accept something that he/she is unwilling to acknowledge. The first step is acknowledging the situation as it is rather than what one wants it to be or wishes it was. This site has lots of really good resources about protecting oneself and dealing with abuse.

[sweetheart]

voc,

That it was the skills, tools and lessons teach us all about how to deal with abusive behaviours in all their forms within the context of a relationship with someone who has BPD.

[vortex of confusion]

For me there is an importance distinction to be made between sexual behaviour that is coercive and sexual behaviour that is emotionally immature, needs led, and lacking intimate finesse.

Exactly! It can be very difficult to tell the difference if one is caught up in FOG.

Initiating by saying "I'm horny" or dangling male parts is immature and annoying but is NOT abusive.

Pressuring a partner to have sex when she is ill (recovering from a bladder infection) and giving the partner the ST because she didn't agree to have sex is abusive.

It is up to each individual to determine which one is being dealt with in the situation. It isn't always easy to tell when things have crossed the line between annoying and immature and abuse.

I have found it helpful to review the articles on Twisted thinking that are found in Lesson 5: Putting it all together.

There is an article on Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56199.0

And its counterpart: Ten Ways to Untwist Your Thinking: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=56200.0

I have referred to those articles to help ME identify whether or not I am making more out of a situation than needs to be made or if I am minimizing a situation because I am in denial or caught up in FOG.

When talking about sexual issues in a marriage, it really helps to sit down and journal things so that you can get a better grip on what is really going on. Because this topic relates to sex, there has been a lot of tiptoeing around things.

If my husband says, "We never have sex." but I can sit down and identify that we have sex x number of times in a given period, then I can use that to reassure myself that he is using black and white thinking. If he says "We never have sex." and I sit down and see that we are only doing it once a month, than I can say, "Oh crap, there is definitely some validity to his claim." If I say, "It seems like all we ever have is cold sex.", then I can sit down and try to objectively identify how often it is actually happening. If we have sex every other week and it is only cold one out of three times, then maybe my expectations are skewed a little.

In the article, Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking, it identifies some ways that we mislead ourselves:

2. Overgeneralization - You see a single negative event, such as a romantic rejection or a career reversal, as a never-ending pattern of defeat by using words such as "always" or "never" when you think about it. A depressed salesman became terribly upset when he noticed bird dung on the window of his car. He told himself, "Just my luck! Birds are always crapping on my car!"

3. Mental Filter - You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively, so that your vision of reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors a beaker of water. Example: You receive many positive comments about your presentation to a group of associates at work, but one of them says something mildly critical. You obsess about his reaction for days and ignore all the positive feedback.

4. Discounting the positive - You reject positive experiences by insisting that they "don't count." If you do a good job, you may tell yourself that it wasn't good enough or that anyone could have done as well. Discounting the positives takes the joy out of life and makes you feel inadequate and unrewarded.

5. Jumping to conclusions - You interpret things negatively when there are no facts to support your conclusion.

I think it is really, really important to make sure that we are not misleading ourselves. In my case, I was misleading myself because I refused to acknowledge that things were as bad as they were. In other people's cases, I think it would be helpful to make sure that that they are not reacting in the opposite direction and making a bigger deal out of this than needs to be made. I don't think I, or anybody else on this site, is capable of identifying that for another person. That is where using the tools and seeing a therapist really helps.

[Crumbling]

I don't feel abused.  I feel neglected, ignored and invalidated, and if you want to define abuse that way, then, you can... .but I do better at looking at why I am allowing myself to let needs go unmet than labelling the situation.  

I feel caught up in a drama I can't find my way out if.  But my BPDh is a very gentle man.  He doesn't share his feelings, and that makes him explosive sometimes.  He's self-abusive more than anything else, and turns anything negative into an excuse to degrade himself.  

The more this comes to light, the farther he falls into self hate.  I am giving him love and comfort when I can but, it is only in the ways I can give, and not in the bedroom.  I just can't.  I'm not going into details, but I am definitely having a physical reaction to the idea of having sex the way we always do.  We need to do some heavy bonding.

, c.

[sweetheart]

I can't remember whether you have a T crumbling or are waiting for one.

Identifying that for you there are issues around your sexual relationship and realising that this is not something you can continue with in this way is really positive. I'm all for us validating ourselves as well as our SO. It can be and I hope it is a healthy starting place for you to redefine what works for you both.

We say it all the time on here that change starts from us.  

[vortex of confusion]

I don't feel abused.  I feel neglected, ignored and invalidated, and if you want to define abuse that way, then, you can... .but I do better at looking at why I am allowing myself to let needs go unmet than labelling the situation.

That is a step in the right direction.

The more this comes to light, the farther he falls into self hate.  I am giving him love and comfort when I can but, it is only in the ways I can give, and not in the bedroom.  I just can't.  I'm not going into details, but I am definitely having a physical reaction to the idea of having sex the way we always do.  We need to do some heavy bonding.

What are you doing for you? Are you giving yourself love and comfort?

Have you identified ways that you can bond outside of the bedroom?

Shining light on any issue is very, very uncomfortable. Seeing your partner deal with negative feelings and self hatred is difficult especially if you feel like you are the cause of those feelings. (Speaking for myself here.)

I know that you are not big on labeling. I am not either. I do know that I was able to distinguish between what was abusive and what was annoying. It wasn't easy but at one point I told my husband that some of his behaviors were abusive/manipulative, especially things like laying on guilt trips when I didn't give him sex. It was very difficult for him to hear. We both went through some really, really dark periods. I didn't feel like I was being abused either. I felt a lot of the same things that you did. I felt neglected, invalidated, and ignored.

My husband is a gentle person too. I know that he isn't going to hurt me on purpose. I can say that he would never deliberately abuse me. I was able to shine light on certain issues by sharing information with him about the more subtle forms of abuse. He hated himself (still does at times) but it gave him an awareness that he didn't previously have. How can anybody fix something if they don't know it is broken?

Now, when he starts pouring on the guilt trips, I can tell him, "I feel manipulated and pressured when you say that." Sometimes he takes it okay and sometimes he doesn't. I can validate his desire for sex but I can also set a boundary and not let him say and do things that are coercive/abusive.

[Skip]

One cannot accept something that he/she is unwilling to acknowledge. The first step is acknowledging the situation as it is rather than what one wants it to be or wishes it was. This site has lots of really good resources about protecting oneself and dealing with abuse.

So are you saying that you feel punished by the silent treatment which you feel rises to the level of abuse (going back a few posts)?

Are you saying that a cooperative solution is a bit out of reach and you need something more forceful?

And are you saying you want to use boundaries - specifically "I will not accept _______" - to protect yourself?

Can you desribe what it is that you want from this "boundary action"? Are you feeling that you want to fight back? Do you want to do something that will teach him a lesson?  :)o you want something that gives you empowerment?

An example might make this clearer.

Can you role play a scenario where your partner wants to have relations and you have a bladder infection - showing how it would work - how he hopefully will respond?

[vortex of confusion]

So are you saying that you feel punished by the silent treatment which you feel rises to the level of abuse (going back a few posts)?

Yes, I have felt punished by my husband's behaviors and actions. In a very recent incident, he was posting online ads looking for women because he was lonely at work. This followed me setting down a boundary about him not calling/messaging/texting me so much during the day. It wasn't said directly, but I felt like I was being punished for not talking to him so much during the day. He has done this with sex as well. If I go too long without taking care of him, he turns into a real jerk. As soon as I take care of him, he is suddenly super nice and has a sunny outlook and thinks that everything is great and wonderful again.

Are you saying that a cooperative solution is a bit out of reach and you need something more forceful?

Right now, we are able to work more cooperatively. It took a lot of time to get where we are right now. When I started on this path, there was little or no cooperation on his part. I felt like everything I said fell on deaf ears. Or, we would have these really long talks that felt great and wonderful and he would acknowledged stuff and we would talk about solutions. After the discussion ended, nothing changed. I would hold up my end of the deal but he would not follow through and would act confused as to why I was doing something different.

And are you saying you want to use boundaries - specifically "I will not accept _______" - to protect yourself?

Yes! That is exactly what I am saying. One specific boundary that I implemented was, "I will not accept that the only way to get you excited is to talk about being with another man." I did it to protect myself because the whole thing left me feeling very dirty and used.

Can you desribe what it is that you want from this "boundary action"?

I do not want to be pressured to talk about or do things that make me uncomfortable. I want to be able to choose to have sex without doing it because I am responding due to FOG. I want to give myself to my husband in a sexual manner without the fear, obligation, and guilt getting in the way.

Are you feeling that you want to fight back?

I don't want to fight back. I want to stop the fighting and disagreements that have occurred around sex. I want my husband to want me in a way that does not leave me feeling abused, neglected, or ignored.

Do you want to do something that will teach him a lesson?

I have no desire to teach him a lesson. This is about ME, not him. I want to find a way that we can have a sexual relationship that is mutually satisfying to both of us.

Do you want something that gives you empowerment?

Yes, I want to feel like I am in control of my own body. I want to feel like my body belongs to me and that I can make choices about what I do with my body without being afraid of having to face possible consequences for making those choices.

Can you role play a scenario where your partner wants to have relations and you have a bladder infection - showing how it would work?

I am not sure how to role play this. In my case, he would probably be okay with me saying no in the moment. The problem for me comes later when he is grumbling about and complaining about not getting any. I think that is one of the really difficult things with trying to set boundaries around relations. It is the pressure and stuff that happens outside of the bedroom that really makes it difficult to figure out how to address it with something like a boundary.

[Crumbling]

I said no this morning.  He has been picking at me, pointing out faults, got mad about something I did seven years ago, anyway, you get the drill.  

A few minutes ago I asked him once again to stop picking on me, and finally just said, I get it, I was wrong, I said no to sex and that is not allowed in this house, now just stop punishing me and move on.  He's been quite withdrawn ever since.

I still haven't gotten my back rub.   :'( But I'm not making things worse... .dont think... .

blessings,

c.

[Grey Kitty]

The more this comes to light, the farther he falls into self hate.  I am giving him love and comfort when I can but, it is only in the ways I can give, and not in the bedroom.  I just can't.  I'm not going into details, but I am definitely having a physical reaction to the idea of having sex the way we always do.

If you feel you can't... .If you would feel harmed... .then saying no is the right thing for you to do.

And your husband did honor your refusal. He gets some credit for that. I wish he had been able to do it nicely, instead of the way he did.

He's been quite withdrawn ever since.

How did you say no?

Did he react immediately, or did his being difficult start later in the day?

[Crumbling]

Here's what went down:

He said, can we have sex today.

I said, I'd love to, but I don't know if I can.  If we did something intimate first it may help get me there, like that nice back rub, wink, wink.

He got upset and started going on how he has to jump through hoops before he can get anything. 

... .

I gave him full permission to masturbate and even left to let him do his thing.  Once he was done, he came in the room I was in looking like a scared little boy.  I held him, told him I was sorry, told him we could hug and cuddle now.  He just wanted to sleep.  I gave him about an hour to himself again, then came up to cuddle with him.  He got out of bed mad that I was 'disturbing' him. and it just went on from there.  At that point, I was completely painted black.

... .

He is really holding back, or so it feels.  Three times through the day he said 'do you want your back rub now' and I answered, 'I have never stopped wanted it, love, anytime you feel ready.' 

Still nothing. See, I don't push him, I give him the option, and he rejects it.

... .

Last night, laying in bed, I asked him if it was intentional, and said, I would understand if it was, I just want to know.  He said because I'm a selfish pr!ck.  I just said, that's what I was afraid of... .I couldn't say no, he is being a selfish jerk!  This may have been hurtful to him, but after many hours of being picked on, I'd had enough.

... .

[123Phoebe]

This may have already been addressed within this thread... .

If the "whole" of the relationship is wobbly and unsteady, then it stands to reason that the sexual aspect will be also.  Intimacy has to be created, not demanded, and for me, for us, it starts way outside the realms of the bedroom... .

In what ways are we creating a safe place for ourselves as well as our partners?

Rejection stinks, I know the feeling first hand; we went through some trying times way back when... . I was focusing too much on "sex" bringing us or keeping us closer together, when what we really needed to build up was a foundation of trust and intimacy aside from sex, with sex clinching the deal.

Abuse in any form should never be tolerated.  But then, why does this feel abusive?  Is it because the rest of the relationship doesn't feel quite safe?  So the sex we're experiencing is reflecting the "whole" of the relationship, which might have an element of emptiness or unfulfillment?

Anytime I've focused too hard on one particular thing, there's usually a host of other issues leading up to it, i.e., can't see the forest for the trees.

Create don't debate

[Skip]

Here's what went down:

He said, can we have sex today.

I said, I'd love to, but I don't know if I can.  If we did something intimate first it may help get me there, like that nice back rub, wink, wink.

He got upset and started going on how he has to jump through hoops before he can get anything.  

I'm not sure it is helpful to see this as what went down today - although I greatly appreciate your frustration.

You both came to the day with "triggers" and before the day was over, set each other off.

This problem didn't occur in a day and it is not going to resolve in a day.

This is a cycle of conflict - it takes a real effort to stop the cycle.

[Crumbling]

  , thank you all for the input.  I agree, this present situation IS an accumulation of years of facing this issue.  We both have bad habits, and I am hoping that there is light on the other side of the tunnel if we can eliminate the bad habits and move forward.

This has become an extinction burst, I think.  Just to update you, I eliminated a key 'favourite' sexual activity of his about three months ago.  Sex has been a roller coaster ever since.  I haven't made this activity a NEVER AGAIN thing... .just simply that I'm not in a place where I can do this now, I'm not emotionally strong enough.  (I was molested as a child, and what happened then is the same thing he wants.  I'm okay with it in small doses, but he has taken advantage of this generosity... .he has admitted it... .for a long while.) 

He has been trying to respect my requests, but just like what I described in this last situation, his 'trying' is very trying on me... .I do acknowledge that he is respecting my requests and I do give him affection for doing so. 

He moves into totally rejecting any affection at all, off and on, a lot over these past few months.  Like he is taking away what I want because I 'took away' what he wants.  It did come to a head very late last night, which I didn't have time to get to earlier.

Anyway, after we started that help me understand conversation last night, I just then said that it was too bad it wasn't something he had control over, because maybe then, we would have a chance.  He hummed and hawed, I did too.  He said I'm going to try harder.  I started pouring out confirmations, I love you, I want to be with you, I am not planning a great escape, or seeking out other men,... .on and on and I ended with 'and if it takes me living somewhere else for the two of us to get healthier, I am willing and able to do it, because I need to stop doing what we are doing now.  Because right now, when you 'try', I get hurt."    No one said anything for a while, then we shared our normal good nights.

It's hard to tell, because I only saw him for a short while this morning, but he may have been kicked back into regulated by this conversation. 

I just want everyone here to know that I would not have the courage to face this without your support and guidance.  I am so grateful.     

c.

[Turkish]

We're going to close this thread.  We left it open well past the 6 page limit because it was a very good conversation - reaching into some very difficult areas.  It had some tense moments, but everyone came together in the end.

Good efforts.