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Author Topic: Please no custody litigation again...  (Read 481 times)
ennie
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« on: January 29, 2015, 07:40:41 AM »

We are heading for some rough times, and the kids are already in them.  We have been hearing little hints of something brewing with the kids BPD mom for months... .little references by SD10 to where she lives and how much, BPD mom saying she "has to talk to" DH about something, in a special meeting, but never doing so.

Now, SD 10 got shingles, which only happens to kids when their immune systems are totally compromised or under severe stress.  After 2 weeks with mom, she is back here for 2 weeks, and last night took 3 hours to fall asleep.  At first she was crying and crying about missing mommy, and DH tried to put her to bed.  I was at a wake, so did not make it home until 9:30; she was still awake and wanted me to lay down with her.  At first she would not let me touch her at all (usually when she is having a hard time sleeping she wants me to rub her back).  After talking about how much she missed her mom for awhile, she started to sob harder and talk about how last night, just before she left her mommy, she took an extra candy and mommy became furious with her.  She talked about how she needs to always be grateful for mommy and how bad she feels for ever not being grateful. 

She also mentioned a lot of things about judges and custody and so forth.

During the last custody battle, 3 or 4 years ago, it was terribly stressful for her because she says she loves all the parents equally.  SD14 is totally enmeshed with mom, so she picked sides, but SD10 did not and mom was terribly mean to her... .black coal in her stocking at xmas, telling her she is bad.  She just could not lie, and it cost her enormously.

Now, she is gearing up to pick mom.  Mom has clearly been talking to the kids about this for months, as they have been all keyed up since before the holidays.  She has not said anything to DH, except that she wants to talk with him. 

The kids have not been seeing counselors; SD10 does not want to see her counselor because mommy slammed her verbally in front of the kids; SD14 has refused to see that counselor after mom spoke ill of her, and I have been pushing DH to get a counselor for 2 years, but he has been dragging his heels. 

SD10 says the only person she can really talk to is her sister, and her sister is nice... .but her sister's position is that how you deal with mommy is give up everything for her, sacrifice your self and all others.  SD10 cannot really do that because she loves us and depends on us too much. 

I have been feeling like I have been and DH has been letting the kids down lately.  We are both really busy and stressed, and I am way less available for them.  The past year things have been easy, and so I wanted to focus on my work and my life for the first time in 8 years.  I think that has been really hard on the kids, me not being home various evenings and being more stressed when I am home.  Fewer special times. 

At any rate, I am scared.  I just feel like SD10 will NOT let what happened last time happen again.  She will side with mom to prevent feeling like she is a horrible person, but it is tearing her apart.  Her body just cannot handle the stress.  SD14 can split more, just buy into mommy's stuff at mom's and then enjoy us when with us, but SD10 feels terrible guilt when she talks bad about us, and she knows that if she was at mommy's all the time she would always be the bad, unimportant one, while her sister is the good, important one.  I fear we have inadvertently reinforced that here, as SD14 is a teen and very motivated, so she gets a lot of privileges just because of her age that SD10 does not get, but at mom's, it is clear that is because she is the golden child.

I just feel so sad for how this is affecting SD10 already, and it has not even started.  I am so powerless.  SD10 loves her mommy so much, and wants so much to be loved back that way, but it just does not happen.  Now she thinks that to keep mommy's love, she needs to give up our safer, daddy and ennie love... .not as yummy as mommy love to her, but way more reliable and easy to get.  She feels terrible guilt, but cannot see another way, I fear. 

Last night, once she talked about mommy being angry and about the judges, SD10 wanted me to hold her and rub her back.  She relaxed, and I just told her about how she has so many people who love her, and about how special she is and understandable her feelings are,  and that no matter what happens, she will still have all that love. 

It is just so hard to see how hard it is for this little girl I love so much.  Her sister seems at ease, capable of handling it... .whatever it is.  I just feels so TIRED of BPDmom's games, terrifying the kids so she has support to try to get custody, then when they are stressed and falling apart after months of this, she will blame it on us... .saying they need their mommy more... .and without regular counselors, we have no third party who can show that this is all her trip, and that having her as a full time mom would be a nightmare. 

Another scary thing is how enmeshed SD10 is with SD14.  She only wants to listen to her sister in these times, and SD14 is full of advice for how to be enmeshed with mom and not care about daddy and ennie.  It is just terribly painful to see, particularly as SD14 is only really nice to her sister when her sister is missing mommy. And SD10 LOVES her sister, who has been pretty mean to her as she hit teen years. 

I also am not sure I can do professionally what I am doing if this heats up... .just WAY too much stress for me, not to mention how this is for the kids.  How we survived before is by me working on home stuff full time, both of us having lots of special time with the kids, good counselors, and lots of witnesses to her scary actions.  This time, we have just been living our lives, ignoring the scary stuff, and not replacing the counselors mom scared off last time.  It is a small town, there are only so many good ones!

I am just saying a prayer that these girls get what they need to grow into women who know that they are lovable for who they are, and who know what is real in themselves and do not sacrifice all to be loved by someone who is not really capable of seeing them as separate people.  Let's just hope that the love DH and I have and give, despite our business and grumpiness and stress is enough for them to see that it does not have to be so dangerous as it is with mom--love can be good, supportive, and not scary.  I just wish I could wrap them in a golden bubble that protects them from harm and fear.  I really see how powerless I am hear, and it hurts.
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Ishenuts
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 10:02:32 PM »

What is the change in circumstances that would warrant a change in custody?

I have the same fears as you. My uNPDex (currently share 50/50) would love to have more custody. Our twins are 12 yo. He has mentioned to our PC that he thinks he should have the kids more during the school year because he helps them with their homework and I don't... .as much! He expects me to quality check their work and make them correct it. I want them to be responsible, which is what their teachers are saying, also. I am not afraid.

Our DS is very enmeshed with the ex. All centered around sports. He has him convinced that I don't support his budding NFL/NBA/MLB career! No, I don't want our son doing sports 6-7 days a week (three sports at a time), so I do put some restriction on it. But it's still 5-6 days a week! Our DS is beginning to exhibit some narcissistic behaviors, also. I believe the uNPDex is trying to convince him that soon he can decide where he lives.

DS does have a therapist who "gets" it. But ex doesn't think he needs to go, and has convinced DS that he shouldn't have to go, either. So it is a real fight to get him there, and I just end up being the "bad guy" who thinks there's something wrong with DS, but daddy thinks he's fine! Another alienation tactic.

I just think without a good reason, changing custody should be difficult, no?
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ForeverDad
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« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2015, 08:52:43 AM »

Since counselors and therapists typically won't or can't speak to the court about custody (in my state they could lose their license if they exceeded the limits of their licensing) they often don't want to talk to court at all.  However, my understanding is that they can and will talk and share their records with custody evaluators who do have that ability to make recommendations.

I think a custody evaluation would be necessary if/when it goes to court.  You'd need an excellent and perceptive evaluator, one who would discern the long history of obstruction and manipulation of the children, where the children feel there is no other option but to side with one parent.

I wonder, it might not even work, but consider the current situation.  If you're certain bio-mother will file for more time or full custody, then your 'defense' would be to oppose change or ask for change in the other direction.  Defense might get a stalemate but not a win most likely.

Thinking outside the box, would you be any worse off to be 'proactive'?  Start the girls, especially the younger one, in counseling now with an excellent perceptive counselor.  Mother will of course obstruct and then go to court, with documentation of how bio-mother is obstructing and alienating the children and so H is the one asking for custody and more parenting time.  Make it less about the children's choices - it is usually not good to put the children in the middle choosing one parent over the other - and more about what is best for the children, or ought to be.  Hmm?  Even if the judge says No, it's likely that bio-mother won't get things to swing her way either and you could end up with the current status quo and her impending scheme thwarted?

Just a thought... .knowing that a large part of bio-mother's case will be that "the children want to live with me".  You need a strategy to shift the focus onto what is best for the children and that H and his home/family is able to do that.

Edit:  In my state a Change of Circumstances case and Custody Evaluation can easily take a year to a year and a half.  So even if the outcome is a lousy one, it might at least be delayed.
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 11:33:02 AM »

To clarify, I'm not saying you should litigate.  What I was pointing out is that if litigation is a virtual foregone conclusion and ex is prepping for it by being MOTY, then why not see if the framework of the case can be framed and focused from the start on her undue influence, pressure, subtle and not-so-subtle alienation, etc, on the children rather than on ex's claim's that the children want to be with her, etc.

In my court both GAL and magistrates have always liked counseling for my child, now almost a teen, and yes he too is resistant to talk of restarting counseling.  However, counseling is a concept court likes.  I think that may be so in your area too.  One stance in court, if you end up there, is to highlight that H has always supported counseling while ex has effectively sabotaged it.
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 10:22:43 PM »

Hi Ennie,

Welcome back it's been awhile  

We seem to be living in a parallel universe.  When I first met my SO his daughters were 10 & 14.  They are now 14 & 18.  :)18 until recently was the Golden Child and D14 not so much  

Now, SD 10 got shingles, which only happens to kids when their immune systems are totally compromised or under severe stress.  After 2 weeks with mom, she is back here for 2 weeks, and last night took 3 hours to fall asleep.  At first she was crying and crying about missing mommy, and DH tried to put her to bed.  I was at a wake, so did not make it home until 9:30; she was still awake and wanted me to lay down with her.  At first she would not let me touch her at all (usually when she is having a hard time sleeping she wants me to rub her back).  After talking about how much she missed her mom for awhile, she started to sob harder and talk about how last night, just before she left her mommy, she took an extra candy and mommy became furious with her.  

She also mentioned a lot of things about judges and custody and so forth.

During the last custody battle, 3 or 4 years ago, it was terribly stressful for her because she says she loves all the parents equally.  SD14 is totally enmeshed with mom, so she picked sides, but SD10 did not and mom was terribly mean to her... .black coal in her stocking at xmas, telling her she is bad.  She just could not lie, and it cost her enormously.

Excerpt
Her body just cannot handle the stress.

.

I don't want to scare you but my SO's younger daughter got into a similar place.  She was much like your daughter she wanted both parents in her life but uBPDmom worked hard to alienate both girls from their dad. Eventually all the chaos, drama, stress, lies, pressure, multiple evictions and instability pushed D14 to make suicide threats last year.  She went inpatient Psych for 2 weeks.  That was the bad news and that was the good news.  She had two weeks when the "FOG" could clear a little bit, where she received good psychological care (her regular therapist picked by mom... .bought mom's BS), where she learned some coping skills, was put on medication for depression.  

Since then she has a new therapist (working in her best interest) and she has been attempting to create some boundaries regarding her mom. She has begun to confront her mom about things and tell her what she really thinks.  Needless to say mom and D14 have been engaged in some conflict, but D14 is doing what she should be doing reaching for her independence. Besides the new therapist she has a school counselor that has been a true godsend, and she has a small group of supportive good friends that she is close to.

Excerpt
The kids have not been seeing counselors; SD10 does not want to see her counselor because mommy slammed her verbally in front of the kids; SD14 has refused to see that counselor after mom spoke ill of her, and I have been pushing DH to get a counselor for 2 years, but he has been dragging his heels.



IMO therapy is very important and should be started again.  It is key that SD10 has a neutral person that she can talk to and someone that can give her some tools to deal with what's going on.  Even if those tools just help her deal with the stress.

Excerpt
SD10 says the only person she can really talk to is her sister, and her sister is nice... .but her sister's position is that how you deal with mommy is give up everything for her, sacrifice your self and all others.  SD10 cannot really do that because she loves us and depends on us too much.

 

Excerpt
Her sister seems at ease, capable of handling it... .whatever it is.

Excerpt
Another scary thing is how enmeshed SD10 is with SD14.  She only wants to listen to her sister in these times, and SD14 is full of advice for how to be enmeshed with mom

In our case my SO's older D18 was a parentified golden child and was back up mom to D14.  That has proved to be a mixed bag.  I think when they were younger D18 was trying to care for D14 because she saw her mom as a victim.  I should say too that D18 was enmeshed with mom... .she could "deal with mom". As they became older and D14 started to assert herself she found that she was up against mom and her sister who took the path of least resistance and sided with uBPDmom.

Excerpt
Last night, once she talked about mommy being angry and about the judges, SD10 wanted me to hold her and rub her back.  She relaxed, and I just told her about how she has so many people who love her, and about how special she is and understandable her feelings are,  and that no matter what happens, she will still have all that love.



I can feel the  love  you have for this little girl loud and clear.  She's lucky to have you in her life.    

Excerpt
I am just saying a prayer that these girls get what they need to grow into women who know that they are lovable for who they are, and who know what is real in themselves and do not sacrifice all to be loved by someone who is not really capable of seeing them as separate people.  Let's just hope that the love DH and I have and give, despite our business and grumpiness and stress is enough for them to see that it does not have to be so dangerous as it is with mom--love can be good, supportive, and not scary.  I just wish I could wrap them in a golden bubble that protects them from harm and fear.  I really see how powerless I am hear, and it hurts.

I couldn't say it better myself!  I think this is what all of us co-parents/step-parents pray for.

I wish I had the perfect answer to fix things.  All I can say is do your best to validate SD10, try to get her outside support... .therapist... .school counselor... .doctor (help with the shingles - according to my mom very painful  :'(), and do what you can to fight for her.

Things with my SO's daughters and their mother have changed drastically over the last year.

D14 has been standing up to mom and gaining self confidence.

Enmeshed D18 believed her mother when she told her there was a "family trust" to pay for her dream private college across the country even though dad told her the reality of their financial situation.  :)18 went had her first semester and over Christmas Break was told by the school that they were still owed $15,000 for the first semester and she wasn't invited back.  She made ":)ean's List" but can't even get her transcripts because of non-payment and now has $15,000 debt.  I wouldn't wish this on anyone, but something this bad was the only thing that was going to make D18 see what her mother is capable of.

Hot on the heals of the school debacle uBPDmom was charged with felony check fraud and also had a civil suit against her.  She has since failed to appear in court and now has a warrant out for her arrest.

Both daughters have had enough and both have refused to see their mother for the last month.  In response mom painted them both black.  Right now there is some low contact but that's it.

I guess sometimes we just do the best we can.  We offer an alternate universe that is available to the kids, validate them, give unconditional love, teach them coping skills, support them and sometimes we have to let them take it from there.
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ennie
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2015, 09:34:37 AM »

Thanks, all.  As to litigation strategy, we are really not there yet.  The only "changed circumstances" are that the kids are older... .although for us there are other real ones, as since the last custody eval., mom has made false allegations of abuse about grandma, ones the Court staff have determined to be false (not forensic psychologists, so whatever, but the court did order the mediators to interview kids on this and report to the court, and they came back with a resoundingly clear "this never happened." and that mom had a DUI during her parenting time, but at 6 in the morning while they were at home, on a school day).  But the main change is SD14 is now older and still enmeshed and would say she wants to live with mom... .though really, I do not think she does.  She loves it here, has a lot of freedom because we live rurally and it is safe, and her friends love coming out here, and she gets a lot of support from us.  She adores her mom, but spends her time taking care of her at mom's house, so she never talks about wanting to live with mom when here anymore, unless she is mad at us for setting a boundary... .

It is not the outcome I am worried about.  It is the process.  It is terribly stressful on the kids because mom tells all to them, we do not, and mom's way of seeing the world is so dark and full of fear that it is really horribly scary to the kids... .mom gets them to think we are going to take them away from her unless they are totally on her side, but then they also are sort of on to her, so also terrified and guilt-ridden that if they support mom, they will lose us... .so it is very scary for them.  Anything we say to balance things out ("I trust your parents will work this out, even if they do not agree the best decision is one that takes into account both of their opinions about what is best for you, because they love you." is perceived as saying mom is a liar, because she says... .


So it is rough.  And like you said, can last years.  We do not have extra money, and in our last custody battle spent all savings and used all the family resources his and my parents could spare... .so we really do not have the means for a protracted legal battle with representation, and custody evals are expensive.  We have our old one, but a new one will cost. 

At any rate, not sure what is the best choice.  But we are not there yet, and mom loves conflict but has TERRIBLE executive function... .she cannot keep a job for more than a month or two, enrolls in school only to drop out a month later, etc.  She has terrible follow through.  Only if she has a backer, a free attorney like last time; or a boyfriend who does not know this, which she might have this time.  Her last boyfriend knows us, so would never fund litigation against us as he knows we are better parents even though he loves her (they are still close).

So really it is the current stress on the kids I am feeling, and as discussed in my other responses, the kids are actually really resilient and after 2 days here, are healthy, happy, and relaxed.  It feels almost magical.  So I am less stressed now... .but more later, as we are in the thick of it!

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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2015, 09:44:12 AM »

Hi Ennie,

Welcome back it's been awhile  

Thanks, Panda, for all your great comments.  It has been awhile, mainly because the kids have been great, and we all have just learned how not to have BPD mom's ongoing craziness get us down... .which is a miracle and amazing life skill!  I find visiting these boards gets me more wrapped up in obsessing about the drama of it, which is also sort of just responding to the general fluff BPD mom stirs up, which mostly is not really REAL, if you just ignore it.  With a good parenting plan, we have been able to ignore most of it, just to make choices that reflect our values regardless of the drama. 

And, we are in a parallel universe!  And the idea that SD10 may one day go through similar stuff is not news to me, I think this all the time and am constantly brainstorming for helping her get what she needs now so she does not go there... .the main ingredient being just loving her lots and letting her know, asking her what she loves about herself, and constantly making clear that my upset feelings are MINE, and do not mean she is bad... .it is in me, not about her.  

I think SD10 is really at that place where she is considering "if you can't beat 'em, join em!" with mom and sister... .and honestly, I do not blame her.  I just do my best to make that choice a little more transparent without giving her too much... .just validating that we will love her no matter how she chooses to deal with that pain and fear, that we are with her.  Paradoxically, giving her permission not to love me as a stepparent always seems to lead to her feeling totally loved by me, and loving me more, trusting me more.  Just that "I love you, I trust you to do what feels good to you in your body, and this is hard stuff, so it is not an easy choice."  And helping her to feel her own feelings, know and trust herself, not to fake it to herself.  

She is young, and not as introspective as SD14 was at this age, but I think she gets it.  She is very intuitive and not such a rescuer as SD14, so she has a tendency toward heartbreaking honesty and integrity anyway... .just needs to know she is a good and lovable being.  

Your words are helpful, Panda.  Really helpful.  

--ennie
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« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2015, 11:45:51 AM »

Thanks, all.  As to litigation strategy, we are really not there yet.  The only "changed circumstances" are that the kids are older... .although for us there are other real ones, as since the last custody eval., mom has made false allegations of abuse about grandma, ones the Court staff have determined to be false (not forensic psychologists, so whatever, but the court did order the mediators to interview kids on this and report to the court, and they came back with a resoundingly clear "this never happened." and that mom had a DUI during her parenting time, but at 6 in the morning while they were at home, on a school day).  But the main change is SD14 is now older and still enmeshed and would say she wants to live with mom... .though really, I do not think she does.  She loves it here, has a lot of freedom because we live rurally and it is safe, and her friends love coming out here, and she gets a lot of support from us.  She adores her mom, but spends her time taking care of her at mom's house, so she never talks about wanting to live with mom when here anymore, unless she is mad at us for setting a boundary... .

It is not the outcome I am worried about.  It is the process.  It is terribly stressful on the kids because mom tells all to them, we do not, and mom's way of seeing the world is so dark and full of fear that it is really horribly scary to the kids... .mom gets them to think we are going to take them away from her unless they are totally on her side, but then they also are sort of on to her, so also terrified and guilt-ridden that if they support mom, they will lose us... .so it is very scary for them.  Anything we say to balance things out ("I trust your parents will work this out, even if they do not agree the best decision is one that takes into account both of their opinions about what is best for you, because they love you." is perceived as saying mom is a liar, because she says... .


So it is rough.  And like you said, can last years.  We do not have extra money, and in our last custody battle spent all savings and used all the family resources his and my parents could spare... .so we really do not have the means for a protracted legal battle with representation, and custody evals are expensive.  We have our old one, but a new one will cost. 

At any rate, not sure what is the best choice.  But we are not there yet, and mom loves conflict but has TERRIBLE executive function... .she cannot keep a job for more than a month or two, enrolls in school only to drop out a month later, etc.  She has terrible follow through.  Only if she has a backer, a free attorney like last time; or a boyfriend who does not know this, which she might have this time.  Her last boyfriend knows us, so would never fund litigation against us as he knows we are better parents even though he loves her (they are still close).

So really it is the current stress on the kids I am feeling, and as discussed in my other responses, the kids are actually really resilient and after 2 days here, are healthy, happy, and relaxed.  It feels almost magical.  So I am less stressed now... .but more later, as we are in the thick of it!

Not to scare you, but DH was primary and had pretty much had a very minor change in circumstances (moved into neighborhood across street into bigger house; mom moved to another city with her first real job), BUT BPD mom still managed to convince then DSD 13 (and younger brothers) to say she wanted to move in with mom (although we could tell she didn't want to... .she often said later she just wanted to temporarily try it out).  It was a nasty 4 year process where we ended up "saving" the boys but losing her totally because she is such a caretaker and BPD mom is an EXCELLENT manipulator.

After what we went through, I would just suggest counseling, counseling, counseling.  Not just as a litigation strategy (no, the counselor cannot determine custody, but the counselor can inform the GAL about the dynamics observed over time), but as a way to build resiliency for your DSD--even if she is pretty resilient, the counselor can reinforce those skills as an outsider, and outsiders always know more than parents, ya know.   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2015, 09:43:30 AM »

I think my point is not that a lot can happen, but just that we have also been through 8 years of this, and two custody litigations, and that we know the drill.  But there are different ways of relating to this, and the past two times something has come up we have been more self contained and less intense in our response, and it has worked out without litigation.  The problem is that if we over-prepare, then it is motivating to BPD mom to prepare, whereas otherwise she may not get around to it.  And, when we have put lots of energy and money into it, we have just secured 50/50, not really had a great outcome given that she has had DUIs, a custody evaluation calling her unstable, etc. 

The point I am making is that the possible harm is not just her "winning" custody litigation, it is her making the kids miserable for years with litigation.  She loves being the victim, and litigation is a great place for her to spin that story.  The kids feel bad for her, want to rescue, are miserable because she needs them to choose between daddy and mommy, and they know mommy needs them more, but also that mommy has more secrets and bad stuff that they can never reveal, but that make them afraid she will lose (or win).  So it is a mess for them, a mess for us, and would be great if avoided!

I think the best change to avoid litigation is for us to not make a big deal about it, and for mom to just drop it at some point. 

Something new to come along.

Something to change so she has less pressure, and blames us less with it.  A new house, boyfriend, job, something. 

It is not like we are just hoping things will not get hard.  It is that over time, we have learn that just letting her problems be her problems and not getting so wound up is just better for us and more likely to result in her dropping it.  Sometimes we have to take action... .but often, we don't. 

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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2015, 01:19:10 PM »

It is not like we are just hoping things will not get hard.  It is that over time, we have learn that just letting her problems be her problems and not getting so wound up is just better for us and more likely to result in her dropping it.  Sometimes we have to take action... .but often, we don't.  

When there is such an obvious target -- a mentally ill and abusive or negligent parent -- it takes so much strength and emotional maturity to disengage from the conflict. I wonder sometimes what winning in court has really accomplished for me and S13. In my case, the judge terminated visitation. N/BPDx is effectively wiped out of S13's life. And yet, my son is struggling with moderate to severe depression. I don't know if there is a cause/effect, and will probably never know, but if I am to be brutally honest with myself, I have to admit that eliminating N/BPDx from S13's life did not fix everything. It did not make my son feel better.

I think it's hard to convey how razor thin the line is between standing up for yourself and contributing to the conflict. When I started this divorce/custody battle with N/BPDx, I was flooded with fear and anxiety day and night. Somewhere along the way, I got tired of feeling that way. That's when I started to feel better, even though the litigation marched on.

It was really hard to start focusing on myself when N/BPDx provided such an unending source of conflict. I'm tired of indignation and being mad at something that is so broken and illogical like N/BPDx's disordered thinking. He taught me a lot about emotions, more so than anyone else in my life.

I believe it's Bill Eddy who says family court is very similar to BPD, which is pretty profound when you think about it. If you treat family court like you treat the mental illness, and if you apply the same tools (detachment, wise mind, radical acceptance), I think you can minimize the conflict. Maybe not eliminate it, but certainly turn the volume down low enough that it isn't deafening.



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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2015, 03:45:14 PM »

When there is such an obvious target -- a mentally ill and abusive or negligent parent -- it takes so much strength and emotional maturity to disengage from the conflict.

I have also really been pondering this lately.  I had a little reality check on this the other day.  As discussed earlier, SD10 came back from mom's with a sickness that is rare in children and doctors thought was due to intense stress.  She also had head lice, was dirty, not cared for.  I was frustrated and angry at BPDmom.  

Then, yesterday, SD10's best friend's mom spent an hour complaining to me about SD10's "constant" lice (she had it several times over the summer, I think because mom was not treating it well and they all sleep in the same bed; once in the fall, and once now--which is not constant, but fairly normal for 10 year olds who have a lot of sleepovers and share hairbrushes, etc.).  I explained what we did to treat it, explained what was happening over the summer, to the best of my knowledge.  She then angrily told me "You really need to get your communication with BPD mom in order if that was happening last summer!  You need to go over there and help her clean her house!"  This was so hard to hear because DH and I spent YEARS trying to develop good parenting communication, finally deciding that written was best... .and so DH sends weekly reports, mom does not, and the communication involves less yelling and abuse, but no more information.  I feel like that is unhealthy for the kids, but that we have no real ability to impact more than our own side of it, and we have tried!  10 months of co-parenting counseling, etc... .no effect.  

I realized that this poor mom was blaming me in the way I blame the kids mom.  The best friend's mom loves and trusts me, knows BPD mom's problems, but feels powerless as HER kid keeps getting lice, twice in the past year from my SD10 as they are best friends, she SEES that mom does not take care of her all the time, and she feels powerless and wants to put anger and blame on me.  It is reasonable, she was not at all abusive, but it still felt bad to be the target for anger over something I have little power to control.  

Likewise, BPD mom is doing her best.  She does not have the executive control to keep her house clean or the money or time to wash all the laundry when there is lice.  We do.  She does not know how to set limits or be peaceful when her kids are angry--what she CAN do is sleep with the girls and love them, keep them out of school when the feel bad, worry about them, etc.  I can choose to be critical about that or not, but it does not change the limits of her capacity.  I think parents (DH) ARE responsible to assess if their child is being poorly cared for by the other parent, and to take action and do what they feel it is right to do, but we cannot know what will be the effects of our actions.  

Is your child depressed because they miss their other parent, or were deprived of some ability to actualize their evolving feelings about that parent?  Would SD14 be less aggressive if we had obtained more custody of the kids?  Would SD10 have lice this week if she had been with us?  Would the kids be sick less if they only lived with us?  All those questions, those what ifs, we cannot know.  That does not limit our need to act on our deep concern for the kids' well being.  

In our case, DH felt that he did not know what was best for the kids, so through the past two custody litigations, he trusted "the experts."  He told the custody evaluator last time that he thought what was best is for BPDmom to get counseling and have the kids 50/50, but if she would not, then for him to have them more... .so the evaluator wrote that counseling should be mandatory for mom to maintain 50/50.  When BPD mom got a DUI, he went to the evaluating agency, and gave them information about her alcoholism, though BPD mom had convinced them this was the first time she had been drunk since being a parent (NOT!).  So the court ordered random alcohol tests, but only if DH ordered them.  She had one ordered, but called in sick, and sobered up for 3 days before taking the test.  There is always a way around the rules for a disordered person.  The consequences then seem like the world being mean, and so the anger and blame turns into parental alienation, as BPD mom has power to influence the kids by telling them how mean daddy is.  Then we deal with weeks of raging teenage feelings, "why are you so mean to mommy?  She did not do anything to YOU!"  

So through that process, we got a great parenting plan, for our lives.  It is not perfect, it does not fix BPD mom or change who we are.  It also did not do what is best for the kids; I really believe that.  I am not sure that it would have been worth the price it would have cost our family to GET a plan that would have been "best" for the kids (I think 60/40, 80/20, with mom having to prove progress in counseling to get more time would be best).  The price would have been litigation stress on the kids for 1 more year, lots of conflict, probably needing to sell our land for money; it would have been too much to pay. To get a court to really understand the pervasive impacts of BPD on kids and families is impossible, and many people who have been willing to live with a BPD person do not have the willingness to ask for an order that would be devastating for the person with BPD.  The kids BPD mom is not physically abusive to the kids much (some pinching, but not much other stuff), drinks but is cagey about it so that is not provable; does not have a bad drug habit, and wants to be with the kids... .so with those things, it is really hard to convince a court that we should have more custody.  

In the end, I think we are realistic about the cost and benefit that is likely to come from the means DH has to act on his concern for the kids. And I think what we have learned is that the amount of energy we spent in planning for and being in custody litigation was better spent in having fun and giving love in our home when the kids are HERE, rather than creating a stress-filled, impoverished, fearful home for them to walk into upon transition.  

When we see the kids in pain, we want to control what is causing pain, to stop the pain.  But I think that the biggest lesson I have learned is that I cannot stop the kids pain; but I can help them be strong and feel loved and provide tools for them to be able to cope with the pain.  And that I am WAY better at doing this when I am not trying to gather evidence for their mom's failings, but when I am focused on what is great about life, what I can give to them that is beautiful and wonderful that is stronger than blame and anger and pain.  There is more to life than that, and that is what we can provide.  

Livednlearned, I sure appreciate your humility and openness to questioning the effects of your actions.  It is not the same for me as I have less power over our custody situation, but I also question whether we should have fought harder for more custody, whether I should have pushed DH to get more custody rather than trying to support him in getting information to help him make his own decision.  I guess where I go with this is just that I am grateful for what we all have right now, and that there is room to act on my feelings right now if I want to do things differently.  I think for me right now, that focus is on learning to deal differently with my frustration when DH plans poorly, or when SD14 is rude because she is a teen.  How to not get so depleted that I cannot handle my own frustration without blame.  And how can I support my family while making time and space for what is important to me?  I would rather do that than litigation, and I think If we stay focused in that place, it is likely that BPD mom will go with the flow because she is not great at initiating or follow through.  

Thanks for your great support and self-awareness.  I think the most important things in all of this are much more subtle than we think at first.  We all have to make the big choices--litigation or no litigation, etc.  But then there is the daily little stuff--how do I deal with the anger I feel?  How to I support my stepchild without trying to do it for them? How do I be present in the face of intense stress?  How do I find out if I am getting enough of what I need to be able to make good decisions?  And so forth.  These are the life skills a child needs to be able to be with a BPD parent without falling apart, so by doing these things we are being great role models. They are also skills that take practice, and after the BPD created drama has come and gone, I am left with great skills for handling the hard stuff in life, so I can be left with more gratitude than resentment. 
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2015, 06:54:12 PM »

How do I deal with the anger I feel?  How to I support my stepchild without trying to do it for them? How do I be present in the face of intense stress?  How do I find out if I am getting enough of what I need to be able to make good decisions?  And so forth.  These are the life skills a child needs to be able to be with a BPD parent without falling apart, so by doing these things we are being great role models.

Do you think some of this is about the intensity we bring to boundaries? A lot of people like me (nons married to BPD spouses) couldn't spot a boundary if our lives depended on it, at least during the marriage. Then divorce hits. I think I overshot on a lot of my boundaries out of fear. It was awkward, and I was afraid, maybe applying more force to my boundaries that was needed. I struggled with this in the first few years after leaving my ex.

Everything felt very intense, very reactionary, and fear-driven. After years of not knowing how to protect myself, suddenly it was raining boundaries, but I wasn't any less fearful. Court makes it hard to relax because so much is invested, so much is at stake, and there isn't really a whole lot of control, even when you win.

It feels like I made a slow shift to focus on real boundaries. My boundaries. Not the court's boundaries. And not just the boundaries, but the feelings that go with setting them and enforcing them. I think that's what you mean by focusing on the daily stuff, the things we have control over? That's what counts in terms of parenting.

I know many of us have to invoke court proceedings because it's the last resort. But I do wonder where things would be if I had not been so afraid. I made a lot of decisions out of fear.  

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