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Author Topic: Parental alienation a byproduct of ex's insecurities? Do I respond?  (Read 476 times)
Ulysses
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« on: January 29, 2015, 08:37:03 PM »

Hello,

I think I'm venting but I also really welcome feedback and help on the best way to handle my situation this weekend.

My kids have two school events this weekend. S11 has one that is all day, and he "performs" three times.  The first time he had this, last fall, kids were with ex that weekend.  We all went (not together) and D6 spent time with ex, with me, and did a lot of back and forth sitting in our laps.  Seemed good to me for her to feel comfortable moving freely.  The second time they were with exH and I didn't go because I was working.  This time, I asked ex if he could bring D6 homework because she and I had talked about how we would see each other and could do her homework.  There are usually other siblings her age there that she knows, and she spends time playing with them if possible.  I admit I might have overstepped in asking about the homework.  I just figured it would be like before, where we had a few hours and 15-30 minutes of the day could be spent reading or doing math (exH won't do homework with D6, and she used to cry Monday mornings when she found her homework folder and unfinished work in her backpack).  Her teachers told me she needs to advocate for herself.  I could bring a book for her to read.

Second event is in the afternoon/evening.  It's a school event with about 400 attendees.  Last year I was in charge of the event (and the school principal told me it was a success, thanked me for it, etc.).  It's a free-flow thing with crafts, activities, puppet shows, etc., dinner, and a performance.  S11 is part of the performance again this year, and since I'm a musician I've been asked to help with his group. 

Ex sent me an email that "he's concerned" that I want him to "bring activities [for D6] to do with you."  He doesn't know if he'll keep D6 at her brother's event (I believe his girlfriend has an apartment nearby).  He also said, "It's my time with them and while I understand that you want to support them and be present for their activities (even when they're on my time), I'm not comfortable with the idea that they should be hanging out with you instead of me during that time.  It's one thing to attend something so you can watch [S11], it's another to come to an activity on my time and expect to hang out with them."   At the evening event he'd "like it clear that they're going to come and go with me and eat dinner with me.  If they want to talk to you or show you the craft they made, of course that's fine, but I don't want to lose my time with them because you come to activities on my weekends."

This feels not right to me.  Am I way off base?  It seems like at least at the evening activity they should be allowed, encouraged, whatever, to be with whichever parent, move between parents, etc.  S11 will probably be running around with his friends anyway, which is what he usually does.  What if D6 and I want to do a craft or watch a puppet show together?  Do I put myself in a glass box with a sign that says ":)o Not Touch?"  Does he attach a leash and collar to each child to keep them away from me?

I forwarded his email to my attorney. 

Do I respond?  Do I contact the kids' therapists?  Do I respond and cc the therapists?  What about giving the child a voice in this situation (like, I'd rather stay here with mom than be babysat by girlfriend)?  What about chilling out and letting the kids do whatever they want to do?  What's normal in this situation, and what's the best way for me to handle Saturday?  Radical acceptance with a chaser of beer?

By the way, last weekend D6 sang at church and exH didn't come, didn't tell D6 before the event whether he'd be there as far as I know, but I didn't ask or say anything about it.

As always, thank you for reading and offering any wisdom you can.

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rarsweet
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2015, 08:56:31 PM »

It's the kids time not the parents. And its not losing out by the kids interacting with the other parent.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2015, 10:33:11 PM »

I totally understand and sympathize. My uNPDexh does the same thing. He also sent me an email telling me that "when I am at activities on his time I can greet the children (12 yo twins) hello and a quick goodbye, but I am not to call them over, etc". The children KNOW, too, what is expected of them. They are very uncomfortable. Any hugs they give me are half hearted if he's nearby, and they look over their shoulders to see if he's watching. It is so sad! But I don't push it. It'll only hurt them. I, on the other hand, do not put any restrictions on them. They can go and sit with him, etc.

I'm just thankful that uNPDexh is stupid enough to put his alienating behavior in writing! I have a file about 12" thick with sinilar garbage.   

I believe my ev is gearing up to try to get increased parenting time. We currently share 50/50. My lawyer can't wait! Everyone sees the alienation - lawyer, therapist (mine and son's), PC, etc. I also have some contempt issues that need to be addressed. I'm just biding my time, saving for the retainer. I just hope it won't be too late! 
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« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2015, 06:14:29 AM »

I have this as well and it's gotten worse.  Until I filed my last Petition, my ex really didn't show up to activities when I had the kids.  UNTIL, I tried to completely disallow that we both attend activities at the same time due to the fact that, the few times that she did show up on my days to watch, she casually, but actively engaged the children, or made a spectacle of herself to the point S7 is asking me, "why is mommy being so loud," during the soccer game.  So I tried to change this, along with many other things.

The Master's solution was, it is fine that you both attend the activities, but, when not on your time the other parent should, "keep your distance."  Hmm.  Now what exactly does this mean to a BP?  Nothing.  And there's nothing to do about it.  engaging the BP at an event is simply eliciting a scene as BPs are very good at making you look bad.  My ex now has her bf bring the kids to activities without her taking it even  step further. This is one of those areas where you just have to grit your teeth.

In your case the tables are kind of turned and your BP is feeling threatened with your presence and interaction with kids during the activities. 

To answer the question, I wouldn't respond.  But I would also prepare for the possibility of you being confronted the next time this happens.
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« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2015, 06:35:02 AM »

As nons, we know how to behave. We put the children's best interest first. I could be in their face, demanding attention, but knowing how their father will react, and how uncomfortable it will be for them (later), I just keep my distance. I just think it is so horrible that they are encouraged to ignore me (us) when he has them. Just alienation.

And why are they always there, front and center, even on our time? Makes them look like "parent of the year" for all to see.

I wish there was a cure for their behavior!
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livednlearned
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« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2015, 09:59:48 AM »

Do I respond?  Do I contact the kids' therapists?  Do I respond and cc the therapists?  What about giving the child a voice in this situation (like, I'd rather stay here with mom than be babysat by girlfriend)?  What about chilling out and letting the kids do whatever they want to do?  What's normal in this situation, and what's the best way for me to handle Saturday?  Radical acceptance with a chaser of beer?

Smiling (click to insert in post)

If your ex is not doing homework with D6, that's something to document. If D6 keeps showing up on Monday with unfinished homework, that's a pattern to pay attention to. By the way, the teacher telling you that D6 needs to advocate for herself is well-intentioned, but ignorant. Kids with a mentally ill parent tend to be less emotionally immature, and it takes a lot of emotional resilience to assert themselves with someone like her dad.  Advocating for herself is not likely something she will be able to do with a lot of ease for a long time, and a lot of coaching.

I don't know what is normal with these situations. S13 performed in the church pageant at a church I joined after I left N/BPDx. It wasn't a place I wanted to ever see N/BPDx, and he has always been very anti-organized religion. So I didn't tell him about it or invite him. The day of the event, N/BPDx showed up. He made a big deal about it in court, and said I was excluding him from S13's life, that I never asked permission to take S13 to church, and on and on. The judge barely blinked. He said it was up to me if I wanted S13 to attend church (especially because N/BPDx said he was raised in the same faith), and that it was my time with S13.

But I got the feeling that the judge already saw the pattern of control, and that's what he was responding to more than anything. Something that is different about my case, too, is that we were in court a lot. N/BPDx was representing himself (he's an L too), and that was starting to get on the judge's nerves. It also made it so that the judge could see N/BPDx's distorted thinking more clearly. 

I think the bigger issue is that when you blur the lines of the custody order -- even if it's better for the kids -- you will encounter this kind of thing with your ex. Which is wrong. Any time you adjust the boundary, which to your ex is the custody order, then he will roll over you.

He doesn't just want control, he wants the appearance of control. That will be his undoing, though, because over time the pattern that he cares more about controlling you than doing what's best for the kids will begin to show. So you lose the immediate battle, but you advance in the overall, long-term strategy.

That's the only thing that helped me deal with this stuff, was having a long-term plan to get more custody, especially sole legal custody.




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Ulysses
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2015, 10:59:11 AM »

So a couple of more pieces of information that I feel  clarify our situation.

Last spring D6 had a performance weekend with rehearsals.   I was involved to fulfill volunteer hours.  I asked exNPD/BPDh if S11 could be with him and he said no, "because it's your weekend."  We didn't have any custody agreement or anything at that point.  It was weird.  S11 sat alone doing homework, etc., for a couple of days.  Now I know, after having seen his bank account information at my L office, that he was out that weekend with his girlfriend. 

Last fall daughter sang at church.  I didn't expect to sit with ex and S11.  Next day S11 said he had wanted to sit with me but exH told him it was too crowded to find me, he wouldn't text me.  I felt it was no skin off my back because frankly I didn't want to sit by ex.  Now I wonder if that's not good that exH wouldn't let him try to find me?

In December S11 asked about the service D6 would sing in, and sitting by me.  I told him to talk to his dad about it, and told him which service I'd be at.  S11 opted to wait alone in the pew for me that morning (yes I was running late and barely made it on time) and sit with me rather than his dad.  That was the time exH brought his girlfriend.  To church.  Divorce not final.  Ick.  Jan service exH didn't show up, who knows why, perhaps because it wasn't, "his weekend."

I took the initiative in the summer to set up an online family calendar and input the kids' activities and let exH know password, etc., so he could access it and sign up for reminders. 

I think at this point my issue is learning how to not feel knocked down for a day or two after interactions with him.  It's emotionally draining.  I have to figure out how to spend my time tomorrow without interacting with my kids in a natural way (as a mom, of course I bring activities if I'll be out all day with a 6 year-old child, which I'll bring, but not push on her).  Stay calm.  Love my kids.

I feel like there are times he won't be with the children because "it's not his weekend."  So he wants me to also be that way.

There will also be parents at the events this weekend who know about his cheating, pornography, anger, etc.  I think it's difficult for exH to feel he's seen in anything but a positive light.  (It probably doesn't help his mood, I just found out last night, that he's had some huge trouble at work, it's in the public eye, etc.)

I'm going to continue to try and be calm, and remember that so much of his junk comes from inside of him and isn't a reflection of my worth.

All of your feedback is valuable, and it's been valuable to vent here.  I need to be able to feel the frustration and upset without losing my mind or worrying too much about my children.  And it helps me to be here because others have gone through this and worse, so I can find the strength to get through this with grace and aplomb.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2015, 11:38:15 AM »

I need to be able to feel the frustration and upset without losing my mind or worrying too much about my children.  And it helps me to be here because others have gone through this and worse, so I can find the strength to get through this with grace and aplomb.

You are doing a remarkable job, Ulysses. It's challenging to focus on your values, what is important to you, when someone else is bent on thwarting you. You aren't escalating the conflict, you're trying to figure out how to neutralize it while sticking to your boundaries, and that's hard.

I don't know how to stop worrying about the kids. If you figure out how to do that, please let me know  Smiling (click to insert in post)



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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2015, 11:47:35 AM »

I don't really see it as alienation.

I personally would be upset if we planned to take SD10 to an event and her uBPDbm showed up and demanded that SD10 spend time with her instead of us. This is the time that we have to bond with SD10. uBPDbm has her own time to bond with SD10 without interrupting ours.

Of course... .there is a big difference between an uBPDbm and a non in the way they handle these situations. If my SD10s mom was healthy then I would have a different opinion on the situation. Heck maybe we'd all go together and have a good time. But she isn't healthy.

So yes, you are thinking as a healthy parent who is like "It's cool, the kids can go back and forth and whatever, no biggie". But these pwBPD have black or white thinking, so I don't think they can handle that in an easy-going kind of way. I know our uBPDbm is very "your time" versus "my time".

I think in any divorce situation (with a healthy person or not) there is going to awkward encounters like childrens events or church or whatever. The important thing is to make the kids feel it is ok to be with and love both parents. It sounds like your ex is doing an at least decent (maybe not perfect) job of making the kids feel it is ok to ask to see you when you're there.

Also, the "other parents" probably don't need to know about any cheating or pornography. I hope this information isn't coming from you.
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Ulysses
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2015, 01:53:43 PM »

Quoting Thunderstruck:

Excerpt
I don't really see it as alienation.

Thanks for your opinion, I'm also not sure it is alienation.  I'm exploring what I'm experiencing and value all of the opinions here. 

Excerpt
I personally would be upset if we planned to take SD10 to an event and her uBPDbm showed up and demanded that SD10 spend time with her instead of us. This is the time that we have to bond with SD10. uBPDbm has her own time to bond with SD10 without interrupting ours.

Of course... .there is a big difference between an uBPDbm and a non in the way they handle these situations. If my SD10s mom was healthy then I would have a different opinion on the situation. Heck maybe we'd all go together and have a good time. But she isn't healthy.

I guess I disagree with some of what you're saying.  I'm interested in the words you use in your post like "interrupting" our time and a mother "demanding."  I'm not sure that I see taking a child to an activity primarily as bonding time for the parent or stepparent.  I see it as the child's activity and their time to grow and learn, intellectually, socially, whatever, depending on the activity.

I'm wrestling with whether I demanded.  It wasn't my intention and I don't think I did.  I sent an email telling him how great it was he had already signed them up for the evening event (thanks LnL for reminding me to offer positive reinforcement), in that I also forwarded information about the events that I knew he hadn't received, so he could be filled in on it, and I asked if he could bring her homework.  Certainly exNPD/BPDh can do whatever he wants to do, I'm working on how to handle it in a way that I feel good about.  And trying to figure out if I should speak up or let it go.  At this point I'm going to let it go and concentrate on my end of things.  I visualize sitting in a row boat on a river and dropping the oars.  Of course, I'll be the one to wipe the tears when D6 hasn't completed her homework and feels bad about herself after she gets another bad grade on her spelling test after a weekend with him, but I can handle it much better now.  I keep doing what I think is right and let my kids see what their life is like with me, and what it's like with their dad, and they can make their own decisions.  And I'll make a ton of mistakes along the way, I'm sure, and that's ok too.  And this site has helped me reach that point in my thinking.

I also have to say, and this is probably for a different thread, that sometimes, for me personally, it's interesting to read a stepparent's posts, especially when he/she refers to the child's parent as undiagnosed BPD.  I might even say it triggers something in me.  Maybe I shouldn't post what I'm going to write, but I do feel it might be helpful, at least to me, and maybe to others.

I think lots of people wish they could act better during the breakdown of a marriage and during divorce.  I lived for years with a NPD/BPD, borderline sociopath (according to a psychologist who met with him individually), who ran a distortion campaign against me.  There are plenty of people my ex has spoken with who think I'm a total nut job.  Which I'm not.  I was isolated and abused emotionally, psychologically, financially, and physically (if you count not mentioning to me the unprotected sex with his affair partner, which I very much do count, and I'm very, very blessed to have not contracted anything).

In my opinion, a stepparent needs to take a back seat to a parent, and if that other parent seems crazy, well, let the kids and the other parent figure it out and you can all deal with it in a loving, mature way.  Maybe trying to limit a child's access to the other parent at a school event is not the way to handle it?  I don't know your personal situation or how many times you've had to put up with something that was uncomfortable for you, so perhaps you've tried letting go of controlling the situation, and it didn't work.  Personally, I can't imagine letting a boyfriend or new husband limit my kids' access to their dad at a school activity.  Let my ex make a fool of himself if that's what he's going to do.  In fact, last spring at an activity where we were dressed nicely, while the adults were talking, ex started jumping and trying to climb a lamp post.  Bizarre.  Kids were there and saw it.  I ignored him and kept on talking with teachers and other parents.  His bizarre acting out isn't my concern, in the sense that I can't stop it.  It's my concern in that I deal with the result on the children.

Recently I got my children cell phones.  There have been times when my kids are with me on the weekend where my D6 has spent lots of time texting her dad.  I think that's ok.  I don't see it as robbing my bonding time with her.  I see it as, at this moment in her life, this girl wants to know her dad is there for her.  It's at most 20 or 30 minutes of time during her weekend with me.  And if it were longer, I would let it go on and watch and see how it progressed, then I might talk with her or her therapist about it to see if she's needing something different for awhile.  It took me a few minutes of feeling my annoyance when she kept texting him, and resisting the urge to say, "hey!  you're with me!  close it out soon!" but I did resist it, and I'm ecstatic and proud that I didn't say anything and she feels comfortable communicating with her dad whenever she wants to (except e.g. at dinner or something like that).

In no way do I view it as he's interrupting "my bonding time" with her.  I'm not sure I can even wrap my head around that concept yet.  Maybe I will see things differently in the future/maybe I'm not seeing the big picture yet.  Bonding can happen anytime, and I don't think I've ever thought about trying to limit it to "his weekend" or "her weekend" (turns of phrases I don't agree with).

Regarding your comment that I need to hide the truth about my ex from other people, well, I did that for years.  On the advice of my marriage counselor I finally opened up to the women in my community when I filed for divorce (he actually had urged me to talk to others much sooner).  I asked for their help and they were happy to give it.  I even got to know two women in similar situations, who were further along the road, who have been great resources.  While I don't agree with all of their decisions regarding custody, etc., it's great to find others I can relate to.  When I reached out, I finally received support that I wasn't getting because I had become completely isolated.  If you'd like to read my original posts you are welcome to.  What my ex did, all the while coming off in public as a moral, ethical, upstanding, Sunday-School-Directing good guy, blows my mind.  I accepted his view of things for many years, and now I'm trying to once again decide things for myself with the knowledge that not only is he not always right, but he kind-of has a warped sense of reality at times.  Maybe I do too, who knows.  If I can be completely honest here, your comment of "I hope this information isn't coming from you" is very similar to how my ex talks.  Probably triggered something in me when I read it.  Thank you for posting it, it gives me yet more to think about!

I imagine my exNPD/BPDh's girlfriend has heard lots of nasty things about me and thinks I'm crazy/angry/worthless.  I don't really care anymore.  I can only imagine what kind of woman gets involved with a man who isn't divorced yet, and perhaps lives with him, and tries to parent his children (all against the advice of D6 therapist), and draws tattoos all over the D6 in ballpoint pen, including in her bathing suit area (stomach/hip area).  That, in my mind, is unfortunate judgment and poor boundaries, maybe even more, but I'm still trying to figure it all out.  And while I don't gossip (never have, usually walk away from groups - sorry to say they're usually women - who do gossip), and I don't spread my personal life via phone tree, and I won't go to his bosses and the local media about his illegal/unethical activities (that would be vengeful and I'm not vengeful), I won't keep silent anymore if I need support from other mothers in my community.  In all I think I've told four other women.

So, thank you for sharing your perspective.  It's very enlightening to hear from a stepmother who says she wants to protect her bonding time with her stepchildren.  I think it's great when a stepparent can be there for the good of a stepchild and not malign the other parent in the process.
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Ulysses
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2015, 02:11:37 PM »

Excerpt
The important thing is to make the kids feel it is ok to be with and love both parents. It sounds like your ex is doing an at least decent (maybe not perfect) job of making the kids feel it is ok to ask to see you when you're there.

Um, is that how it works?  My children have to ask permission to see me at an event?  That doesn't sound right. 

No, my instinct tells me that children need to move freely and not be worried about asking permission to spend time with one parent or another at an event.
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2015, 02:23:02 PM »

LivednLearned:

Excerpt
If your ex is not doing homework with D6, that's something to document. If D6 keeps showing up on Monday with unfinished homework, that's a pattern to pay attention to. By the way, the teacher telling you that D6 needs to advocate for herself is well-intentioned, but ignorant. Kids with a mentally ill parent tend to be less emotionally immature, and it takes a lot of emotional resilience to assert themselves with someone like her dad.  Advocating for herself is not likely something she will be able to do with a lot of ease for a long time, and a lot of coaching.

Yes I agree, thanks for stating this.  It's one battle at a time, one little step in one battle at a time.  My next step in this is the school counselor.

Excerpt
I think the bigger issue is that when you blur the lines of the custody order -- even if it's better for the kids -- you will encounter this kind of thing with your ex. Which is wrong. Any time you adjust the boundary, which to your ex is the custody order, then he will roll over you.

He doesn't just want control, he wants the appearance of control. That will be his undoing, though, because over time the pattern that he cares more about controlling you than doing what's best for the kids will begin to show. So you lose the immediate battle, but you advance in the overall, long-term strategy.

We actually have it in our custody agreement that we're each free to attend children's activities.  I guess I didn't realize he would want a line of demarcation.  He does want the appearance of control, perhaps because inside of him there exists seething primal rage he can't control?  I'm working at remaining calm with each new turmoil/battle, and behaving in a way I want to and I would be proud of, say, my daughter behaving if she were in my position, and keeping the long-term goal in mind, which is putting my life back together in a way that I can support myself and two children while engaging in intellectually stimulating and socially rewarding work, which I did before I had children.
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2015, 03:01:49 PM »

Again I'm in a very different situation, just trying to give you a different perspective.

We've had to fight tooth and nail for each and every day we've gotten to spend with SD10. In the beginning, it was zero days in four months. My DH was so depressed and miserable. We've spent thousands and it's taken 2 years but right now we're at 50/50. uBPDbm has actually been alienating SD10, to the point where she would scream her head off when DH went to school to pick her up for the weekend. So bonding time (without uBPDbm's interference) is important to us. It strengthens the positive relationship between DH and SD10 and reminds SD10 that her dad loves her very much.

You might take advantage of the fact that your bond with your kids is natural. You can feel their love and they feel yours. You're secure in that and so it's ok if you don't have their complete attention at all times. It seems to me that the pwBPD cannot actually feel love in that way so they look for the attention from the kids. Sometimes with their black or white thinking they may think "either you love mommy or you love daddy". They can't imagine the gray area where kids love both parents. So they struggle more with sharing.

I disagree about step parents, especially when a disordered parent is involved. But everyone has a different situation. In mine and DH's relationship, we are always on the same page. We discuss the issues we have with uBPDbm and we set up boundaries together. I help and support DH. I don't tell DH what to do. I don't tell SD10 what to do. I don't tell uBPDbm what to do.

And I was concerned about spreading knowledge about the personal relationship with your x, because sometimes it can fall on the kids. For example, our uBPDbm made up false allegations that DH was sexually abusing SD10. Then one day in school (a year after it was proven to be 100% false) DH overheard another parent telling their child not to play with SD10. Rumors get around, they might even get back to the kids and it's something that they shouldn't have to deal with.
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2015, 03:10:48 PM »

Excerpt
The important thing is to make the kids feel it is ok to be with and love both parents. It sounds like your ex is doing an at least decent (maybe not perfect) job of making the kids feel it is ok to ask to see you when you're there.

Um, is that how it works?  My children have to ask permission to see me at an event?  That doesn't sound right. 

No, my instinct tells me that children need to move freely and not be worried about asking permission to spend time with one parent or another at an event.

I think you read into that too much.  Smiling (click to insert in post) I used that wording because you stated D11 asked his father to see you in church. What I mean is it seems like he isn't telling them straight up "NO, you cannot see your mother" and it seems to me that while he may not be doing a perfect job of it, he's seems overall to be not completely restricting the kids. 

Being able to move freely between parents is a healthy way to view it. I agree. I always wished that was possible with my coparenting situation.
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2015, 01:34:06 AM »

Hello,

So here's an update about my day.

First, thank you for this:

Excerpt
To answer the question, I wouldn't respondBut I would also prepare for the possibility of you being confronted the next time this happens.

This helped me remember that often exBPD/NPDh is either looking for a reaction/response from me, or maybve triggers a feeling in me that I need to respond.  For over a year now, I've tried to either not respond right away, or not at all.  This time I didn't respond.

I also thought about preparing, not only for this to happen again, but also, preparing myself mentally and emotionally for today, what I might encounter, how I want to handle it, etc. 

Also, this was helpful:

Excerpt
It's the kids time not the parents. And its not losing out by the kids interacting with the other parent.

I agree completely and it was nice to have someone else express this.  I feel like it gave me strength to not crumple and wilt.  I didn't feel guilty being at my kids' activities.

Ex ended up missing 2 of 3 of S11 performances.  Girlfriend took D6 to a morning sport activity, even though D6 has an injury and if I were making the decisions I wouldn't have taken her, based on her diagnosis this week.  D6, ex, and girlfriend showed up at S11 event and catch the last performance/competition.  When the person running it asked for a volunteer to assist, girlfriend jumped right in to do it.  There were parents there who were experienced and wanted to do it.  She put herself squarely in the middle of the activity and everyone, including S11, had to pay attention to her given the nature of her assisting.  I thought, goodness gracious, I think ex found another NPD.  Or else that's that whole projective identification thing going on again.  S11 did great and won every time.  D6 spent time with me, time with her dad, and it all seemed pretty comfortable to me.  I don't know what ex thought and I realized I don't care.  If he's uncomfortable he can speak up, I don't need to try and read his mind or decipher his longings anymore.  I don't need to alter my behavior or push away my daughter when she comes to me so that he feels better.  I actually felt great when I left the daytime activity.

In the evening activity, ex got the children there so late that D6 missed all of the activities geared for her age and playtime with her friends.  When I walked by them lining up for the buffet dinner she was crying and another mother from the school was trying to talk with her.  Ex and girlfriend were standing there.   D6 saw me and I asked her if she wanted to come and sit down for a minute.  I think that that might have been overstepping my line of demarcation.  My instinct was, get her to a quiet area in the next room to cry, express her feelings, have a hug, and then back to public so all her friends don't see her cry (S11 was teased a lot at that age for crying).  She came with me around the corner.  Ex came out and said, "Hey!  What are you doing?"  I don't know if I should have ignored him.  I quietly said, "She's crying so I'm sitting here with her for a moment."  She then wouldn't sit in my lap.  She sat across from me and he knelt next to her.  I gave her a napkin to wipe her nose (as I was doing this ex wiped her nose with his hand) and when I found out she was upset at having missed the activities/crafts, I tried to validate by saying, "Yes, that probably doesn't feel good to have missed those things."  (I really think I need to work on that aspect of things.)  At that point girlfriend came out and did her usual skulking nearby, close enough to hear things, not really being part of the conversation.  I'm beginning to wonder if she's recording things.  It's weird that she does that.  D6 got herself together and went to dinner with them.  I was busy volunteering so went and did that.  It's very difficult as a parent to walk on by when your child is crying.  I don't feel bad that I didn't just walk on by.

The rest of the evening I spent volunteering with other mothers, and helped on stage.  I realized I have a lot to offer and while I miss my kids beyond measure, and I wish so much I could have had a family, and I have a ton of guilt that I can't provide that for my children, I don't miss ex.  The way he interacted with girlfriend (holding hands during S11 performance/competition in a tiny room where we were all sitting close together, except when she was assisting), the way girlfriend interacted with him (it's hard to explain, submissive and care-taking is the closest I can come to it - yuck), I don't want to be part of that kind of thing.  I want to be independent and I'm getting there.  I want emotional space.  I don't have to concern myself with his emotions, confusion, trying to control situations and people.  I'm done and I feel relief.

I cried on the way home.  It was awful in some ways and great in others, and I don't even know what all I was crying about.  Mostly missing my kids and having a family and everything not working out.  But then I got through it and I feel good.   

So there's my update.  I'm happy with how I handled everything.  Thank you for your responses and thank you for reading my very long posts.  This has helped me immensely to get through today.
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2015, 02:09:58 AM »

Oh!  I just realized something. 

When exNPD/BPDh and girlfriend and kids came to the evening activity, I was volunteering backstage.  S11 had to bring things back there and D6 wanted to come too and stay there with me.  I talked to her about she didn't need to wait there, she could go enjoy the event, dinner, etc., and she was adamant that she wanted to be backstage with me.  Ex stepped in to tell her she had to come with him.  She reluctantly went, and it was only a little later I found her crying.

Should I have done something differently?  Ex made it pretty clear in his email that she was with him for the evening.  I could have started a conflict and invited her to "hang out" with me, but I didn't.  I wonder if it would be helpful to talk to her T about this.  I'll talk to mine because I really don't know what the right thing was to do for her.  I figured in the moment the right thing was her going to dinner with her dad, even though I would have rather had her with me.

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livednlearned
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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2015, 02:39:00 PM »

Should I have done something differently?  Ex made it pretty clear in his email that she was with him for the evening.  I could have started a conflict and invited her to "hang out" with me, but I didn't.  I wonder if it would be helpful to talk to her T about this.  I'll talk to mine because I really don't know what the right thing was to do for her.  I figured in the moment the right thing was her going to dinner with her dad, even though I would have rather had her with me.

This stuff is so tough. I feel for you. It would've broken my heart  :'(

Our kids are going to encounter behavior in their lives that has some similarities to the BPD parent. I think all any of us can do is to think about the healthy skill we want them to learn when stuff like this comes up.

I'm not sure how I would handle it, but probably something like, "S13, your dad has different values than I have, and when you are here with him, he has a hard time if you spend time with me. I have a different way. When you are with me, it's ok to find your dad and spend time with him. We have different values, and that probably doesn't feel fair, because you don't feel like you have a choice. I can't control what your dad believes or does, but I can control how I respond. And you can too. Why don't we think of ways we can feel close even when we aren't near each other?"

My son and I do this goofy thing with made-up sign language. When he's milling around with kids at an event, and I'm in the audience, he'll look over at me and send these signals. It used to crack him up trying to get me to respond because some of the signals are ridiculous, and I'd have to figure out a way to work them into whatever I was doing. One of them is bring both index fingers together without looking at my hands, which I cannot for the life of me manage to do.

The main thing is to validate how your D feels, and I think it's ok to say that you have different values than your ex. My T helped me figure out how to show that I was different without making it seem like we were pitted against each other, and talking in terms of values somehow managed to keep S13 from feeling like he was in the middle.

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