Is she testing the waters?

[Beware of Junk Psychology...]

I have 3 kids and a SD. I was the sole provider in the family and my wife was a SAHM, we were on a tight budget. At the time I didn't think she would leave, she had no work and couldn't support herself financially. She was calling me abusive in every imaginable way, I checked the phone records before she left and she was calling women's shelter and mental health facilities.

She said she was moving out so I said sure. We had separated several times for periods of about a week maybe for about a month over 8 years. I didn't know about BPD, I thought there's no way she's going to be able to support herself let her run her course and work this out of her system. She's be back in a couple of months tops.

Anyways, she was having an affair and about 3 weeks after she moved I get an e-mail "Just so you know I don't you to find this out through the kids, I have a bf". I wanted to get a separation agreement so that if either of us spent money and took a lot of debt in the 12 month period before getting a divorce, we're both responsible for it. She was not good with money and I was worried she was going to spend a lot of money I can't afford.

She was ignoring calls, texts, emails etc and was avoidant when I would come and get the kids. I could tell she was uncomfortable and didn't want to look at me. This was about a couple of months after the same person was aggressive and baiting to pick fights she couldn't bear to look at me or be in my presence - she was always uncomfortable, nervous. It's not the same person that I knew.

I told her if she was not comfortable than we can get a third party, a friend and do this in a public place. Her response to the legal separation ( I was trying to do this on my own with no L's ) "Mutt there's a thousand of other ways of communicating and we can do this by email" I thought how many messages back and forth was it going to take? We can take 20 minutes to get this done instead of 100 emails.

I recall I was trying to take care of something in regards to the marriage and I was frustrated because she wanted the divorce and wanted nothing to do with actually trying to get divorced. I was angry with her on the phone and went over to her place and she was playing with the kids in the front and she simply looked at me and shook her head no and looked like she on the verge of tears.

Two years later I pick up the kids she's hiding in the doorway of the door. She doesn't talk, won't say "Hi". She did try rapprochement once. I know she "no contact" caused her pain and she had come to my place to drop something for the kids and said "Mutt, it's been 2 years already" and I got upset. I felt angry at how she left, was avoiding me and the communications that I did receive after she had left were blaming, threats and scary. I felt so invalidated and I mentioned her boyfriend and the affair and she quickly turned around and left.

She wished me a "happy birthday" this month and I had not heard her wish me that in 2 years.

I think she understands what she did, I also think that she feels a lot of shame and guilt for her actions and it's difficult for her see the pain she caused to someone else. I recall she had given me hotline numbers for suicide not long after she left because she said she was worried that I may harm myself.  The depression had not hit me by this point. She said "Get help and talk to someone" It showed that she cared.

I saw her recently at a clinic with the kids. I suspect she's getting bloodwork done because she's pregnant from his baby and I told the kids to go say hi to mom. She couldn't look at me or say "Hi" I notice she looked sad while she was looking at the kids and again she seemed like she was on the verge of crying. As I was about to leave with the kids, I say "Hi" and left.

[Mutt]

I have 3 kids and a SD. I was the sole provider in the family and my wife was a SAHM, we were on a tight budget. At the time I didn't think she would leave, she had no work and couldn't support herself financially. She was calling me abusive in every imaginable way, I checked the phone records before she left and she was calling women's shelter and mental health facilities.

She said she was moving out so I said sure. We had separated several times for periods of about a week maybe for about a month over 8 years. I didn't know about BPD, I thought there's no way she's going to be able to support herself let her run her course and work this out of her system. She's be back in a couple of months tops.

Anyways, she was having an affair and about 3 weeks after she moved I get an e-mail "Just so you know I don't you to find this out through the kids, I have a bf". I wanted to get a separation agreement so that if either of us spent money and took a lot of debt in the 12 month period before getting a divorce, we're both responsible for it. She was not good with money and I was worried she was going to spend a lot of money I can't afford.

She was ignoring calls, texts, emails etc and was avoidant when I would come and get the kids. I could tell she was uncomfortable and didn't want to look at me. This was about a couple of months after the same person was aggressive and baiting to pick fights she couldn't bear to look at me or be in my presence - she was always uncomfortable, nervous. It's not the same person that I knew.

I told her if she was not comfortable than we can get a third party, a friend and do this in a public place. Her response to the legal separation ( I was trying to do this on my own with no L's ) "Mutt there's a thousand of other ways of communicating and we can do this by email" I thought how many messages back and forth was it going to take? We can take 20 minutes to get this done instead of 100 emails.

I recall I was trying to take care of something in regards to the marriage and I was frustrated because she wanted the divorce and wanted nothing to do with actually trying to get divorced. I was angry with her on the phone and went over to her place and she was playing with the kids in the front and she simply looked at me and shook her head no and looked like she on the verge of tears.

Two years later I pick up the kids she's hiding in the doorway of the door. She doesn't talk, won't say "Hi". She did try rapprochement once. I know she "no contact" caused her pain and she had come to my place to drop something for the kids and said "Mutt, it's been 2 years already" and I got upset. I felt angry at how she left, was avoiding me and the communications that I did receive after she had left were blaming, threats and scary. I felt so invalidated and I mentioned her boyfriend and the affair and she quickly turned around and left.

She wished me a "happy birthday" this month and I had not heard her wish me that in 2 years.

I think she understands what she did, I also think that she feels a lot of shame and guilt for her actions and it's difficult for her see the pain she caused to someone else. I recall she had given me hotline numbers for suicide not long after she left because she said she was worried that I may harm myself.  The depression had not hit me by this point. She said "Get help and talk to someone" It showed that she cared.

I saw her recently at a clinic with the kids. I suspect she's getting bloodwork done because she's pregnant from his baby and I told the kids to go say hi to mom. She couldn't look at me or say "Hi" I notice she looked sad while she was looking at the kids and again she seemed like she was on the verge of crying. As I was about to leave with the kids, I say "Hi" and left.

[Splitblack4good]

I have 3 kids and a SD. I was the sole provider in the family and my wife was a SAHM, we were on a tight budget. At the time I didn't think she would leave, she had no work and couldn't support herself financially. She was calling me abusive in every imaginable way, I checked the phone records before she left and she was calling women's shelter and mental health facilities.

She said she was moving out so I said sure. We had separated several times for periods of about a week maybe for about a month over 8 years. I didn't know about BPD, I thought there's no way she's going to be able to support herself let her run her course and work this out of her system. She's be back in a couple of months tops.

Anyways, she was having an affair and about 3 weeks after she moved I get an e-mail "Just so you know I don't you to find this out through the kids, I have a bf". I wanted to get a separation agreement so that if either of us spent money and took a lot of debt in the 12 month period before getting a divorce, we're both responsible for it. She was not good with money and I was worried she was going to spend a lot of money I can't afford.

She was ignoring calls, texts, emails etc and was avoidant when I would come and get the kids. I could tell she was uncomfortable and didn't want to look at me. This was about a couple of months after the same person was aggressive and baiting to pick fights she couldn't bear to look at me or be in my presence - she was always uncomfortable, nervous. It's not the same person that I knew.

I told her if she was not comfortable than we can get a third party, a friend and do this in a public place. Her response to the legal separation ( I was trying to do this on my own with no L's ) "Mutt there's a thousand of other ways of communicating and we can do this by email" I thought how many messages back and forth was it going to take? We can take 20 minutes to get this done instead of 100 emails.

I recall I was trying to take care of something in regards to the marriage and I was frustrated because she wanted the divorce and wanted nothing to do with actually trying to get divorced. I was angry with her on the phone and went over to her place and she was playing with the kids in the front and she simply looked at me and shook her head no and looked like she on the verge of tears.

Two years later I pick up the kids she's hiding in the doorway of the door. She doesn't talk, won't say "Hi". She did try rapprochement once. I know she "no contact" caused her pain and she had come to my place to drop something for the kids and said "Mutt, it's been 2 years already" and I got upset. I felt angry at how she left, was avoiding me and the communications that I did receive after she had left were blaming, threats and scary. I felt so invalidated and I mentioned her boyfriend and the affair and she quickly turned around and left.

She wished me a "happy birthday" this month and I had not heard her wish me that in 2 years.

I think she understands what she did, I also think that she feels a lot of shame and guilt for her actions and it's difficult for her see the pain she caused to someone else. I recall she had given me hotline numbers for suicide not long after she left because she said she was worried that I may harm myself.  The depression had not hit me by this point. She said "Get help and talk to someone" It showed that she cared.

I saw her recently at a clinic with the kids. I suspect she's getting bloodwork done because she's pregnant from his baby and I told the kids to go say hi to mom. She couldn't look at me or say "Hi" I notice she looked sad while she was looking at the kids and again she seemed like she was on the verge of crying. As I was about to leave with the kids, I say "Hi" and left.

This is interesting mutt I was in LC with my ex for about 2 months after the b/u she rang me out the blue Xmas eve when my replacement wasn't with her and seemed upset about something and told me that she had fallen out with all her freinds and had no one left other than my replacement she wouldn't directly admit I was right about her falling out with everyone like I predicted and going out with these new freinds was a major part of us breaking up as she had done this before she chose new freinds over me all the time and caused us to break up back in the summer and when they all dropped her due to her BPD I stupidly took her back I knew I was wasting my time trying to get her to see the same thing would happen again so I let her get on with it . The fact she rang me crying and telling me she fallen out with everyone was a clue she's not happy and abit of regret ther and told me she wants to be freinds and get on with me with no hard feelings it's amazing how she went from hating me and blamed me for everything and being smug to loosing everyone except my replacement and all of a sudden talking to me calmly and wanting to be friendly I sensed she wants me a backup !ironic thing is a month prior to this she couldn't wait to rub my nose in it that her replacement was freinds with this new group of freinds she slowly but surly has fallen out with one by one and was cocky and smug about and ignored me . I think the call was more of a test to see if I was still here and how I felt about her as she's insecure to the fact that her new bf is still freinds with everyone that she now has made enemies and poss knows will abandon her . A few weeks after this I found out she cheated on me so I text her and called her out on it she denied it at first followed by saying she doesn't want to be freinds now and to fu*k off ! Sure sign of guilt and shame . An hour later I got a text that said ( you all win I'm alone now good bye ***** ) and have not heard from her since so my guess is she's riddled with guilt and shame and is in to much pain to even see me or text again . Funny thing is she told our mutual freind that I keep contacting  her by text in front of my replacement knowing that he would tell me but the truth is ive been NC since that day so I'm guessing she was baiting me into texting her and playing games as she will not contact me due to the shame I beleive she would ignore me if I did text her but would show I'm still here but im not going to do that and staying NC.

Since then she avoids me at all costs her shame and guilt must be to intense .

[Mutt]

Funny thing is she told our mutual freind that I keep contacting  her by text in front of my replacement knowing that he would tell me but the truth is ive been NC since that day so I'm guessing she was baiting me into texting her and playing games as she will not contact me due to the shame I beleive she would ignore me if I did text her but would show I'm still here but im not going to do that and staying NC.

Since then she avoids me at all costs her shame and guilt must be to intense .

I think your right. I think she's testing the waters. On the one hand she either looks at people as all good or all bad? She may feel bad denigrating you to friends and now she's being nice? It may make her have to explain herself?

It makes me wonder what my kids go through when mom and dad aren't friends. I can tell that it confuses the youngest one ( S3 ) If I mention anything remotely connected to her actions, her defense mechanisms take place.

I don't want the kids to be mediator for either of us later on. I look at it as "ground zero" a base-point. I can see she may be testing the waters and fears abandonment with her bf, perhaps that's why she's having his baby or maybe she believes she's in love and he's the one. I'm not sure and it's her life-choices.

She's been trying to invite me to social settings on her time with the kids and I suspect with him there as well. In Dec the Christmas plays at school have passed and they have them in the afternoon or in the evening and she invited me to go on when she was going with her friends and family. I wanted to go to that one as I couldn't make the afternoon one due to work and I thought at the time, it's one thing that you dissociate and to be around people where she's called me abusive and the stories is another thing. Then the simple birthday wish followed  with an invitation for me to a hockey game with the kids on her time and I declined as she wanted me to go with while the bf was there and not her?  

She's secretive and I think she's trying rapprochement as awkward as it is because she's dissociated 8 years.  I see it as an opportunity to bridge a gap between mom and dad for the kids and see try to be friendly for the kids. This is how she copes, she has impairments and poor social skills and I also understand that she feels fear internally, distrustful and rejected.

I thought ground-zero is a good place to start and I'm not impaired. I don't speak of our history. It's difficult when someone that was a significant part of your life ignores you or tries to run away. That said, whatever it takes for the kids.

[Splitblack4good]

I don't know what her intentions were by saying that in front of my replacement i was at that point 13/14 days NC here's what she said exactly to our mutuel freind - ( can you  tell c**** to stop texting me and ringing me his number has been blocked now and is staying that way ! We are over and the sooner he gets that in his head the better ! ) like I stated ive been NC since I called her out on her cheating on me up till this point we were in LC and a few out the blue calls from her and she even made a point of texting me saying sorry as per post above to show me I was unblocked she even unblocked me on what's app 2 days prior to her saying those things she knew that I would clearly see Id been unblocked on what's app as her contact imfo appeared and she wouldn't even need to say anything on there to show me Id been unblocked . The only thing I can think off is she feels touch shame and guilt to communicate with me first and was hoping I'd text her to get attention ? Who knows ?

[myself]

Mutt, I admire how you and others here try to get along with your exes for the sake of the kids. But I do want to say that sometimes that can send the wrong message to children. Well-intentioned but not as true to yourself? Kind of like showing them it's OK to be pals with your bully/someone who has wounded you. My parents divorced when I was pretty young, and it always stood out to me that they weren't still friendly. Looking back from where I am now, I see that they were basically NC with each other unless something really important came up. Which I'm actually glad for, knowing that my dad had been abusive with my mom and it was good for her to get out of the situation. It taught me a better lesson that she stayed away from him than if she had tried to just put on a happy face/deny the real reality between them. I hope things work out and you find a calm way through this, but don't feel you have to put on a show of things for your kids (or your ex).

[Mutt]

I'm sorry to hear about your parents songbook. Divorce must of been hard?

You triggered memories of family court. I went upwards to 20 times for shared custody. I like to show up early for appointments etc.

As I sat and waited outside the court room with many other people waiting, I noticed some people were emotionally attached to their exes. It begs to question why in family court?

I recall one person distraught and talking to her L and saying stories like the father was crazy, a drug user and she was really getting worked up.

I saw another person where she came in and her ex must of had a new girlfriend and anger and pain washed over her face - if looks could kill.

My point, I saw an awful lot of conflict outside and inside of court. I was nervous being there because you don't have control and it's scary to have your personal life exposed to the public, court clerks and the judge.

I had my head down and focused on the kids and to be their voice and not point fingers and blame because conflict is secondary.

The biggest impression for me with courts was the emotional attachment some people have with their exes as I'm in there for the kids right to their unconditional love for me.

What we had is over? She won't validate or own her part, that's on her. I'm not happy with how it ended, it wasn't fun and the worst I think is over. She may be triggered with something else down the road.

I still have another 15 years until the youngest is of age. They look up to mom and dad for guidance and love both and I think they wish that things were back to how it was.  I think I can control myself and be civil with her. It's not to say that I'll do blended family things anytime soon.

We are two different constellations, I have my family with the kids and she has hers. It's not for me to get enmeshed in her stuff.

[jhkbuzz]

Wow Mutt, I've often thought about how difficult it must be to have children with an exBPD partner.  My ex wanted to have a baby right away.  Out of all the things I'm most grateful for these days, at the top of the list is that we never had children.

1.  You said "I think she understands what she did, I also think that she feels a lot of shame and guilt for her actions and it's difficult for her see the pain she caused to someone else."  I agree with that assessment.  The sad fact is that there's nothing you can do about her avoidant behavior.  It's sad that the children see it, but it's not within your power to change.

2.  You also said, "It makes me wonder what my kids go through when mom and dad aren't friends. I can tell that it confuses the youngest one ( S3 )... ."  My feeling is that YOU could manage a 'friendship' (or at least normal, calm interactions in front of the kids) - but she can't.  Unfortunately this is also out of your control as well.

3.  You also said, "I don't want the kids to be mediator for either of us later on. I look at it as "ground zero" a base-point."  I agree with this - it puts the children first.  However, you can only work on that from your end.  If you do, you children - especially as they grow older - will come to view you as a stable, solid person of integrity.  They will also eventually see that their mother is unstable. That is how it will play out, and the only effect you can have is between you and your children - not between you, your ex and your children.

4.  You also said, "I still have another 15 years until the youngest is of age. They look up to mom and dad for guidance and love both and I think they wish that things were back to how it was.  I think I can control myself and be civil with her. It's not to say that I'll do blended family things anytime soon." This sounds like solid reasoning, and healthy.  I am not sure that the "blended family" thing will ever be possible with a disordered individual.  Down the road SOMEWHERE will be some sort of drama in that kind of triangle... .it's part and parcel of the emotional instability.

I think simple, honest explanations for children are the best. Something along the lines of "I love your mom but we can't be in a r/s anymore.  I know that's hard for you, and I'm sorry about that, but we both love you very much" is sufficient.  Yes, it's hard for the children - but it's outside of your power to "fix" your ex and "fix" your r/s - and so "fix" what is causing pain for your children.  This is the reality, though very hard, and very sad.

Can I ask:  what exactly do you think needs to happen between you and your ex in order for your children to be happy?

And are any of these "things" within your power to implement/change/affect?

[Mutt]

Here's a little back story.

When she told me she was pregnant ( kids say she's having the baby in summer ) she's likely in her 2nd trimester. I thought that she was showing and I didn't say anything. I think she may of been pregnant from him in the marriage as well and had a miscarriage.

I made a call to a lawyer. I have known her for 10 years and in that 10 years she's had an unstable work history, she gets in trouble with management and co-workers and I wanted to find out how child support was going to change because she's going to stop working and I'm seperated and not divorced. A good time to divorce? That said. The L I talked to is seperated from his ex and he suspects she's BPD as well.

I pay a substantial amount in support and I'm also bankrupt from the marital debt she walked away from and the money she was contributing was gone. Our budget was very tight with a family of 6. Post break-up I had a deficit every month and it was crushing when I have shared parenting. I don't have a disposable income or the means to be tied up in court for whatever may come up. She has the means being low income to have a public lawyer with a very low fee to take me to court. Not fun!

The lawyer didn't paint a pretty picture financially. What stuck out in the conversation was "Can you negotiate?" and I quickly retorted "No" I was upset for a couple of days and stressed and thought why can't I try negotiating with her? I understand she has poor coping skills, she doesn't articulate well and it's up to me to change.

On the other hand, I validate the valid, I use SET and I use BIFF for boundaries. With ground zero in mind I told her the kids were sad that they didn't get a gift for dad and it was my miss on my part and if she'd like she can take the kids to get me a present and I'll do the same she her birthday comes up.

She didn't articulate the hockey game well. I understand that I can be clear and concise with questions due to her social skills. I was under the impression he was going to be there with my son and my daughter. She said he steps up on her time ( all good ) to take the kids to special nights with the scouts at a hockey game.

She later said he was stepping aside and letting me take my son on her time ( I'm all bad ) Can I be specific when I question? "Is your boyfriend taking our son?", "I understand you want me to take our son?"

She got a present from the kids, a picture frame and said sorry I forgot to get you a coffee card.

Keep in mind, I have a SD15 and I'm friends with her SM and they had chaos for 15 years. I asked her if my ex flip flopped with her and she said "She's an odd duck! She flip flops all of the time!" She said "Mutt your lucky, she never let us have SD15 on her time and she never got SD15 to call her dad. She asked you to take the kids on her time and got you a birthday present?" What I mean with flip flopping is if her ex was on the "ins" or "outs" with them or splitting good and bad.

Her ex engaged her and to his credit he didn't understand BPD whereas I do. He had a very difficult post break up with visitation with his child.

So the contrast is different, he had a difficult 15 years, I've had some progress in areas where he failed?

I'm just short of 2 years post the break-up and had some success where's had no success in 15 years. The difference? I changed and he was emotionally attached mired in conflict.

[jhkbuzz]

I'm sorry Mutt, this is a little difficult to follow.

What exactly do you think needs to happen between you and your ex in order for your children to be happy?

And are any of these "things" within your power to implement/change/affect?

[Mutt]

I'm sorry Mutt, this is a little difficult to follow.

What exactly do you think needs to happen between you and your ex in order for your children to be happy?

And are any of these "things" within your power to implement/change/affect?

I'm sorry.

Co-parenting for the kids.

Parallel parenting is to stop the bleeding.

Moving away from parallel parenting to co-parenting.

I can only control myself and with how I act or react. So as an example, if she's dysregulated in an email it's not for me to take on her feelings and enmesh in her stuff. I'm her ex.

If she's baiting or attacking I can re-direct a question and package the truth with SET, validate feelings then the T when she feels better in a few hours, a day etc and not validate the invalid - the attention seeking. She feels different depending on what's going on in her life and sometimes she directs her frustrations, feelings and tries to project on me. My interactions are minimal day to day stuff about the kids, I don't divulge personal things although she does sometimes and I can't control that.

De-personalize the behaviors and not be emotionally attached to her behaviors. I understand I can't control her or anyone else. I have boundaries if she does X and I respond with Y.

That's my power.

[jhkbuzz]

I'm sorry Mutt, this is a little difficult to follow.

What exactly do you think needs to happen between you and your ex in order for your children to be happy?

And are any of these "things" within your power to implement/change/affect?

I'm sorry.

Co-parenting for the kids.

Parallel parenting is to stop the bleeding.

Moving away from parallel parenting to co-parenting.

I can only control myself and with how I act or react. So as an example, if she's dysregulated in an email it's not for me to take on her feelings and enmesh in her stuff. I'm her ex.

If she's baiting or attacking I can re-direct a question and package the truth with SET, validate feelings then the T when she feels better in a few hours, a day etc and not validate the invalid - the attention seeking. She feels different depending on what's going on in her life and sometimes she directs her frustrations, feelings and tries to project on me. My interactions are minimal day to day stuff about the kids, I don't divulge personal things although she does sometimes and I can't control that.

De-personalize the behaviors and not be emotionally attached to her behaviors. I understand I can't control her or anyone else. I have boundaries if she does X and I respond with Y.

That's my power.

What do you envision "co-parenting" to look like?  (Concrete examples, I mean). Decision making together?

Holidays together? What would it look like to you?

[Mutt]

I don't recommend not having a court order. I think you need court appointed boundaries for ground rules for both parents if it's high-conflict. It's incredibly difficult when a parent is fulfilling their needs above the families needs.

I got a court order Jan 2013, all of the holidays are already in the court order to remove ambiguity and chances for potential conflict - black and white.

Parallel parenting is both houses parent the children in a sort if parallel line with little to no meeting in the middle where you can clash. She raises them her way and I raise them my way. One parent us in charge of medical the other school. A kind of, low contact for high conflict couples...

Now by removing this system, I can have softer boundaries and fall back on hard court appointed boundaries. So, my child my S7 has Dr's appointments to get checked for autism, one way is we collaborate separately, another is try to collaborate together. My daughter wants to extend visits over the summer holidays, instead of spending one week at a parents house, she wants to spend two weeks.

Instead of having to go to court each time, a choice can be to try to co-parent or at least give it a try. Take the system that's in place out, there's court boundaries and see if it benefits both families instead of court costs or lost opportunities for the kids. She can be overly competitive at times because she has low self worth, I could give her the impression she has an advantage over me by giving her a little more in support. The goal is also to try to negotiate with her with support costs to level the playing field in both houses as it currently stands one suffers financially ( mine ),whereas her's gives the impression things run more smoothly.

That said, wouldn't it make a little more sense to have monies go directly to the kids instead of having to go to court and waste thousands there on lawyers?

The proof is in the pudding. I accomplished more with trying the tools I learned in 2 weeks where her ex couldn't make it work for 15 years?

[jhkbuzz]

I don't recommend not having a court order. I think you need court appointed boundaries for ground rules for both parents if it's high-conflict. It's incredibly difficult when a parent is fulfilling their needs above the families needs.

I got a court order Jan 2013, all of the holidays are already in the court order to remove ambiguity and chances for potential conflict - black and white.

Makes sense.

Parallel parenting is both houses parent the children in a sort if parallel line with little to no meeting in the middle where you can clash. She raises them her way and I raise them my way. One parent us in charge of medical the other school. A kind of, low contact for high conflict couples.

Makes sense.  Sad, but it makes sense.

Now by removing this system, I can have softer boundaries and fall back on hard court appointed boundaries. So, my child my S7 has Dr's appointments to get checked for autism, one way is we collaborate separately, another is try to collaborate together. My daughter wants to extend visits over the summer holidays, instead of spending one week at a parents house, she wants to spend two weeks.

So it sounds like you want to "ease up" on the strict parallel parenting so you and your ex can communicate about your children's needs. Is your ex capable of this on a consistent basis?

Instead of having to go to court each time, a choice can be to try to co-parent or at least give it a try. Take the system that's in place out, there's court boundaries and see if it benefits both families instead of court costs or lost opportunities for the kids. She can be overly competitive at times because she has low self worth, I could give her the impression she has an advantage over me by giving her a little more in support. The goal is also to try to negotiate with her with support costs to level the playing field in both houses as it currently stands one suffers financially ( mine ),whereas her's gives the impression things run more smoothly.

That said, wouldn't it make a little more sense to have monies go directly to the kids instead if having to go to court and spend thousands there?

Of course it makes sense!  But my question remains - is your ex capable of being stable enough for this kind of co parenting?

[Mutt]

I think she may. I can give her the chance. Everyone's ex is different, BPD is a spectrum disorder. I can be less triggering? It's not easy and it's not an impossibility with her. It's understanding she's wired differently and instead of expecting her to understand me I can adjust and communicate in a way that's smoother for both. Communication really goes a long way and changing how one communicates in different settings. Where I was inflexible and rigid she taught me to be flexible. It's helped me in every aspect of my life, personal and work.

Let me ask this. Is there one recipe with a pwBPD with co-parenting ( cutting the person out of your life ) or perhaps different recipes?

[jhkbuzz]

I think she may. I can give her the chance. Everyone's ex is different, BPD is a spectrum disorder. I can be less triggering? It's not easy and it's not an impossibility with her. It's understanding she's wired differently and instead of expecting her to understand me I can adjust and communicate in a way that's smoother for both. Communication really goes a long way and changing how one communicates in different settings. Where I was inflexible and rigid taught me to be flexible. It's helped me in every aspect of my life, personal and work.

So part of this is determining both what you're realistically capable of, and what she's realistically capable of. Makes sense.

Question:  if it doesn't work... .if something blows up or goes wrong... .will your kids be worse off for it, do you think?

[Mutt]

Question:  if it doesn't work... .if something blows up or goes wrong... .will your kids be worse off for it, do you think?

As opposed to mom and dad not talking in front of the kids indefinitely? What if they're graduating in school or are getting married what then?

[jhkbuzz]

Question:  if it doesn't work... .if something blows up or goes wrong... .will your kids be worse off for it, do you think?

As opposed to mom and dad not talking in front of the kids indefinitely? What if they're graduating in school or are getting married what then?

I was just asking... .I don't know the dynamic of your r/s, or what your ex is capable of.  Just trying to cover all the angles... .I got very good at doing that with my ex.  

Do you think she has gotten past her shame?  It's hard to negotiate or "reason" with shame... .it's a pain that makes people simply run for the hills - as you're well aware.

[Mutt]

Question:  if it doesn't work... .if something blows up or goes wrong... .will your kids be worse off for it, do you think?

As opposed to mom and dad not talking in front of the kids indefinitely? What if they're graduating in school or are getting married what then?

I was just asking... .I don't know the dynamic of your r/s, or what your ex is capable of.  Just trying to cover all the angles... .I got very good at doing that with my ex.  

Do you think she has gotten past her shame?  It's hard to negotiate or "reason" with shame... .it's a pain that makes people simply run for the hills - as you're well aware.

I agree. From what I can tell she's dissociated 8 years that we had and if I mention anything remotely about the marriage it's a trigger. Our marriage is done no reason to revisit old stuff?

She's also not comfortable around me, shame based? What I do notice is a solid block of being split black is not so black anymore. Why are there intermittent windows where she's trying to do things? I'd say it's a dark shade of grey right now. It flip flops. So, as I see it I don't want to trigger Queen or Witch I've seen how punishing Witch can be. Having been punished by Witch twice is this something I need to learn again? No thanks.

What I see is an oppurtunity, a possibility, not a certainty and I didn't have this for nearly two solid years and to not take her behaviors personally and keep my distance. If I look at the actions of both, he's not going anywhere anytime soon? They're having a kid maybe get married have more kids? Who knows.

He was emotionally supporting her in separation, high conflict custody, my SD acting out with SI , before I got to bpdfamily I was very briefly on a divorce site. The advice "expose the affair" and I emailed and messaged all of her family and friends exposing the affair and he stayed put and I know he thought differently because he told me "why did you tell everyone we're having an affair?". Talk about adding fuel to the fire when you're in a distortion campaign, granted I still hadn't clued in she may be disordered. I was furious at both for sneaking around and having fooled me. He's comfortable in his spot. That said he keeps the chaos away from me.


I can't control her shame or splitting, I can make things less triggering and hopefully be able to bridge a gap for the kids. The kids look to her as mom. She is their mother and they don't look at mom as having a PD. It's too complicated at their age.

SD15 is split black because she's doing adolescent stuff, rebelling against mom.  I don't agree with how she puts herself in front of the kids. Sometimes it's girlfriend followed by mom and not mom followed by girlfriend. He's on a pedestal and I can't control that. The kids love is unconditional and they'll go through their pov with mom on their own terms later on.

She is the mother of my children.

What if this window closed and she was rejected? I don't want to maybe wait another two years of being treated as all bad. For now I'm sometimes good and mostly bad in her eyes. It's better than all bad or nothing. I can't control her splitting I can control how I react to it.

My kids are young, they're hurt that mom and dad aren't together, I'd hate that I got in the way of lessening emotional pain. Maybe they wonder why are mom and dad not talking to each other? As I said with weddings, it would be awkward for one parent to not attend or avoidance in front of the new in-laws. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture and I understand maybe that's far ahead - the children's landscape.

That's my angle or logic. A chance at a possibility to bridge a gap, things I may miss if I'm angry at mom. She made an impulsive choice and abandoned me before she thought I abandoned her - self destruction. She'll likely self destruct this r/s as well, unstable inter-personal relationships. It's done all that's left - parenting and try to make it as smooth as possible.

As far as I can tell. I'm the most emotionally mature person in both families and I can grow and change, she's stuck at a level of a 2 - 4 year old emotionally and her bf? He walked in the middle of all this and he has no idea what he's in for, two things happen it either consumes you or you find yourself. I'm in the latter camp. It's really up to me to make the move. I think she's trying the best that she can, she has impairments. I can try to meet her as far as she can go. I have three young kids, I put the kids in front of me.

[jhkbuzz]

Question:  if it doesn't work... .if something blows up or goes wrong... .will your kids be worse off for it, do you think?

As opposed to mom and dad not talking in front of the kids indefinitely? What if they're graduating in school or are getting married what then?

I was just asking... .I don't know the dynamic of your r/s, or what your ex is capable of.  Just trying to cover all the angles... .I got very good at doing that with my ex.  

Do you think she has gotten past her shame?  It's hard to negotiate or "reason" with shame... .it's a pain that makes people simply run for the hills - as you're well aware.

I agree. From what I can tell she's dissociated 8 years that we had and if I mention anything remotely about the marriage it's a trigger. Our marriage is done no reason to revisit old stuff?

She's also not comfortable around me, shame based? What I do notice is a solid block of being split black is not so black anymore. Why are there intermittent windows where she's trying to do things? I'd say it's a dark shade of grey right now. It flip flops. So, as I see it I don't want to trigger Queen or Witch I've seen how punishing Witch can be. Having been punished by Witch twice is this something I need to learn again? No thanks.

What I see is an oppurtunity, a possibility, not a certainty and I didn't have this for nearly two solid years and to not take her behaviors personally and keep my distance. If I look at the actions of both, he's not going anywhere anytime soon? They're having a kid maybe get married have more kids? Who knows.

He was emotionally supporting her in separation, high conflict custody, my SD acting out with SI , before I got to bpdfamily I was very briefly on a divorce site. The advice "expose the affair" and I emailed and messaged all of her family and friends exposing the affair and he stayed put and I know he thought differently because he told me "why did you tell everyone we're having an affair?". Talk about adding fuel to the fire when you're in a distortion campaign, granted I still hadn't clued in she may be disordered. I was furious at both for sneaking around and having fooled me. He's comfortable in his spot. That said he keeps the chaos away from me.


I can't control her shame or splitting, I can make things less triggering and hopefully be able to bridge a gap for the kids. The kids look to her as mom. She is their mother and they don't look at mom as having a PD. It's too complicated at their age.

SD15 is split black because she's doing adolescent stuff, rebelling against mom.  I don't agree with how she puts herself in front of the kids. Sometimes it's girlfriend followed by mom and not mom followed by girlfriend. He's on a pedestal and I can't control that. The kids love is unconditional and they'll go through their pov with mom on their own terms later on.

She is the mother of my children.

What if this window closed and she was rejected? I don't want to maybe wait another two years of being treated as all bad. For now I'm sometimes good and mostly bad in her eyes. It's better than all bad or nothing. I can't control her splitting I can control how I react to it.

My kids are young, they're hurt that mom and dad aren't together, I'd hate that I got in the way of lessening emotional pain. Maybe they wonder why are mom and dad not talking to each other? As I said with weddings, it would be awkward for one parent to not attend or avoidance in front of the new in-laws. I'm trying to look at the bigger picture and I understand maybe that's far ahead - the children's landscape.

That's my angle or logic. A chance at a possibility to bridge a gap, things I may miss if I'm angry at mom. She made an impulsive choice and abandoned me before she thought I abandoned her - self destruction. She'll likely self destruct this r/s as well, unstable inter-personal relationships. It's done all that's left - parenting and try to make it as smooth as possible.

As far as I can tell. I'm the most emotionally mature person in both families and I can grow and change, she's stuck at a level of a 2 - 4 year old emotionally and her bf? He walked in the middle of all this and he has no idea what he's in for, two things happen it either consumes you or you find yourself. I'm in the latter camp. It's really up to me to make the move. I think she's trying the best that she can, she has impairments. I can try to meet her as far as she can go. I have three young kids, I put the kids in front of me.

I could be wrong about this (because it's difficult to be certain via reading versus an actual conversation), but you sound emotional in these posts... .and if that's the case, I think you should sit on the decision for a little while.  If I'm wrong, I apologize.  I just know that when I'm feeling emotional I always wait before making decisions - and I never regret it.

If you decide to attempt this, I would think that it would be smart to map out your boundaries beforehand. Might even be smart to share them with her - for example, you're not comfortable with the "one big happy family" outings.  Sharing your boundaries upfront may even clue you in about whether or not she can handle what you're proposing.

If I were in your situation, I know that I might find it hard to maintain my boundaries. As a reasonably healthy adult, I believe in compromise - it feels kind of awkward to have hard and fast "rules" (unless they about my values and morals - then I don't compromise at all). 

The "blended family" thing, for example.  I would imagine that that's a boundary for you to safeguard your own mental health.  I would do the same in your situation.  But I would also be tempted to bend that boundary if she pushed - and then I'd be sacrificing my own mental well-being, which is what I did in the r/s for a long time and don't ever want to do again.  But there's the kids to consider, so it's hard.

Wow, it's complicated.

[Mutt]

No need to apologize. I've been waiting to talk to my T. It helps to share here. She's triggered feelings of loss. Thankfully, I'll be talking to him next week.

You raise important issues. Mental health well-being, self-care, and not compromising your values. I don't agree with these big family outings she's proposed. She may dissociate and the stories she said about me about abuse in her distortion campaign. It doesn't sit well with me showing my face in front of her family and friends. It's taking care of myself and my own mental health. You're right - boundaries.

I think her life and r/s is complicated and fragile. Mine is with my 3 kids, they're young and require a lot of time, attention and work. The changes in my life is working around a court order and the changes with separation and divorce. My life, not as complex as hers. It's two separate ( families ) constellations and  not getting enmeshed in hers   I think her ask with doing stuff together as a big family is over the top for me with her distortion campaign. Her friends, her sister, exBIL etc were going to be there and I'm not comfortable with that.

[jhkbuzz]

No need to apologize. I've been waiting to talk to my T. It helps to share here. She's triggered feelings of loss. Thankfully, I'll be talking to him next week.

I sensed that you were triggered... .and thank God for our therapists, right?

You raise important issues. Mental health well-being, self-care, and not compromising your values. I don't agree with these big family outings she's proposed. She may dissociate and the stories she said about me about abuse in her distortion campaign. It doesn't sit well with me showing my face in front of her family and friends. It's taking care of myself and my own mental health. You're right - boundaries.

YES.  The question is, do you feel strong enough to set them and maintain them if you "dive back in," so to speak? I am only 6 months post b/u, so I know I would struggle with this - but you've been apart much longer, so maybe it wouldn't be as much of a struggle for you.

I think her life and r/s is complicated and fragile.

Yes, this is my concern for you.  I know you can work all the "tools" on your end, but sometimes even that isn't enough - things can implode/explode.

My life, not as complex as hers. It's two constellations and not getting enmeshed in hers  

And that, my friend, is tricky.

I think her ask with doing stuff together as a big family is over the top for me with her distortion campaign. Her friends, her sister, exBIL etc were going to be there and I'm not comfortable with that.

I understand, and I think you should follow your gut on that one.

But just imagine how interesting it would be when her friends & family realize that she is now inviting the very person she vilified... .I would think it would make them question her stability, at the very least. Especially if you're polite and friendly.

[Mutt]

I agree. I haven't seen my T for some time and it's good to check in, it gives validation and gives me a boost.

I feel great. The kids have commented that dad sounds happy. I feel better than before I met her. Part of it is doing the work here, grieving the r/s and marriage. Owning my part and finding my qualities and new strengths like boundaries and a strong sense of self. Understanding to take care of me and not taking on other peoples feelings. Knowing my limits and self care. It's not to say these are things that I don't work on, it's something I work on ever day.

Yes, I agree. I was vilified and her family and friends may take a double-take. She owns that and its on her and maybe they'll start thinking there's something wrong and maybe not. I think some in her family are scared of her, they bury their heads in the sand. It's really on her though.

That's a good question. Will it implode? It may or may not. I can take it one day at a time and if it doesn't work, she's too difficult I can put the system back in place. She's attached and detached. She seems indifferent and I am happy with the little gains with facilitating the kids needs.

So far, so good. She was dysregulated in a couple if messages. I didn't patholgize, I simply didn't take it personal. It's miles away from where I was before when I was emotionally attached. For example it made me recall how sometimes fights would spill over from the home to the workplace. I'm sorry I can't remember the details ( her dissociations confused the context ) and I do recall times where I looked at the replies and I'm embarrassed. Somewhere in the ballpark of 50 replies of back and forth. It made me fill sick.

As far as diving back in. I've outgrown her. She's caused much too much pain, hurt and destruction. I can have compassion with boundaries. I'm not the type to return back into a relationship with an ex. It's how I am if she's disordered or not, we broke up for reasons and reasons are enough for me. I don't have a taste for revisiting if there's passion for someone.

She may want to keep me close, she may not. She's secretive and it's not to say there may not be other guys? I don't know. If it falls out between him and her, I'll worry about how she reacts then or maybe there's nothing to worry about? There may be another lover. What I see is he seems committed as dysfunctional as he is with my kids.

I do know from being with her, I've never heard her go back to an ex. She was a single mom with SD for many years and not such a large family. I don't think it's the size of the family anymore. When she said we're done I didn't think she'd find someone with all of our kids. I understand now it's not an issue. Some people will accept everyone. My impression from him, I don't think he's coping with the kids it's not to say someone else won't. The thought did cross my mind that she may think she can come back if she's in a corner. She copes day to day, she's resilient and will manage.

For now be present and not worry about the possibilities of a future that's yet to develop, that causes unnecessary anxiety and stress. If there's one thing she taught me about life, anything can happen. I didn't think 10 years ago I'd be a single dad and I'm happy doing it on my own. I'm closer to the kids and vice versa.

I have gotten some little gains without having to drag her into court, letting me keep my pension and having an extra week for both families with visitation. I can sign the papers and not move at the glacial speeds of the system. Small victories. I think that's what's important and not if she may or may not be looking for covering her behind if their r/s is on the rocks or not. Been there done that with her.

No thanks. We had our time, it's place is in the past. My future is mine, I have control of where I want to take it. I'm the type that grieves a loss as unpleasant as it may feel.

I really needed help this time because it was excruciating pain and I was worried that this emotional wound was something I may not be able to work through having suffered much pain and abandonments in life. Thank god I found this board.

Everywhere I look at I see lessons. I thought, I think she's simply trying to make amends for the kids in her way. I thought you know what I've missed so many tells in the r/s, it may be good to pay attention. I don't think she's trying to be malign, I do know her ways are hard on the kids and at the same time, she has shown apathy, sympathy and empathy towards them in her way. It's there I had to look closely.