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Author Topic: My husband, my room mate  (Read 637 times)
Notwendy
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« on: February 02, 2015, 08:25:09 AM »

My H is very territorial about what he believes is "his" stuff. That's fine with me to a certain extent. We should all have our own personal stuff and areas, including the kids. I don't take my kids' toys, clothing, etc, I don't want anyone taking my personal belongings.

However, he behaves more as if we were room mates than a family. I remember in college that it would be a problem if one room mate ate everyone else's food, without contributing to the cost or buying some too. However, we are a family and the food budget includes all of us. I do understand that my H would want to have some of his own favorite foods, I do too, but I found that the best way to manage this is for him to have an extra fridge that is his, and his own shelves on the pantry. If anyone takes something of his, he is sure to notice and to ask " who ate MY ______?".

I don't work that way. With a family, especially older kids, I have no idea who eats how many cookies and it isn't an issue for me as long as they eat healthy meals and they are in good health, normal weight, at the doctors, which they are. So I have no need to monitor the cookies. I can understand if my H is disappointed when someone eats the cookies he likes, but if I notice that the cookies are gone, I just think well, time to buy more.

The more he gets his own space, things, the more the boundary moves to more things. He hasn't raged at me in a while, thanks to the lessons here. However, it's a cycle which means when he gets irritated, he starts poking at me to get a reaction so he can let it out and blame me for it.

It was mentioned on another thread that caretakers are attracted to people with BP that they can rescue and it gives them a sense of "power up". My H is an enigma in that he is both. He has to have power up, which results in him saying things that are condescending and judgemental to me. If I react, then that opens the road for a full blame me for it rage, keeping him in the blameless power up position. To everyone else- at work and his family, he is the "hero" the rescuer, the good guy, but with me, he wants to be taken care of: cooked for, nurtured, loved, but he is not so willing to do this in return as this make him feel as if he is being told what to do like a servant in his mind. He wants to be the one served.

So yesterday, he was irritable and pushing buttons. I didn't bite. He was aggravated that we were out of paper towels. I was not aware that we were, nor was I aware that he had bought some of them. However, he then announced that he had bought some and that someone had taken his paper towels (huh? that was news to me, I thought paper towels were just there and would buy some when I went out. ). He did go to the store and buy some- and they are his towels. Now, I suppose I will need to go get some more and leave his alone.

He also was poking at everything I said. I asked a question about one of our kids, to which he replied "You already asked about kid" yes, I did, but I wanted to know more information. So I just dropped the subject. We drove by a neighbors house and I remembered that the kid had been attending college and so I said, just to make conversation, "He's at college X now" to which the reply was " I told you that two months ago, do you not remember that? ". Well no, I had heard about the college but I had heard it from friends, his family and other people too. I was not making some kind of statement he didn't know, but just chit chatting" I simply replied that I appologize for not remembering"  and let the conversation go as it wasn't worth getting into it or explaining (JADE).

So, great, no escalation because I didn't bite the bait. I really don't care enough about the neighbor kid or the paper towels to make it into anything. He can think what he thinks ( he's going to regardless).

I don't get the room mate thing, except that his FOO is enmeshed and I think he keeps all kinds of barriers to avoid feeling that. However, our home is slowly being divided into his stuff/the family stuff(me and the kids) and the boundary keeps moving. In the grand scheme of things, I don't much care. He can have his own house if he wants to have everything in his space all to himself ( He's not going to move though) as long as we have our family space too. It's just wierd to me.


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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2015, 09:42:33 AM »

He has to have power up, which results in him saying things that are condescending and judgemental to me. If I react, then that opens the road for a full blame me for it rage, keeping him in the blameless power up position... .He also was poking at everything I said. I asked a question about one of our kids, to which he replied "You already asked about kid" yes, I did, but I wanted to know more information. So I just dropped the subject. We drove by a neighbors house and I remembered that the kid had been attending college and so I said, just to make conversation, "He's at college X now" to which the reply was " I told you that two months ago, do you not remember that? ". Well no, I had heard about the college but I had heard it from friends, his family and other people too. I was not making some kind of statement he didn't know, but just chit chatting" I simply replied that I appologize for not remembering"  and let the conversation go as it wasn't worth getting into it or explaining (JADE)... .So, great, no escalation because I didn't bite the bait. I really don't care enough about the neighbor kid or the paper towels to make it into anything. He can think what he thinks ( he's going to regardless).

This scenario plays out at our house when my husband is itching to start an argument with me. It's ironic that he has the memory of a gnat when it comes to things that he's not interested in, but if I repeat myself or forget some bit of trivial information, then he becomes imperious, in a similar fashion as your husband's comment, chastising me for not remembering. I think that he enjoys the "one-up" moments when he's felt that I've been critical or judgmental about him (often only in his imagination).

In my husband's case, I think it's due to the excessive internal self-flagellation he regularly inflicts over inconsequential things. For example, a couple of days ago, he was going to the market and he asked if I needed anything. I know better than to give him a list of several things (that can cause a meltdown), so I said I'd need frozen peas (just one item). Yesterday morning I was planning dinner and looked in the freezer for the peas, which weren't there. "I thought you bought peas," I said. He apologized profusely and I know he felt really badly over something that to me was of no importance since my errands would take me near a grocery store anyway. I asked what else he needed at the store and left. When I returned, he was very sweet, but it was almost "guilty-sweet"--my sense was that he was relieved that I didn't seem bothered that I had to make an extra trip to the store because he forgot the peas. I know he regularly beats himself up for really unimportant stuff and that's why he's so pained by anything that even resembles criticism.
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2015, 09:46:50 AM »

 

Might be worth a "help me understand... ." conversation about what stuff is his... .ours... .and yours... .etc etc.

After he is done drawing his boundaries... .if some are clearly being drawn around "family" things as his... .I would send it back his way... .with a "help me understand where we can compromise here... ."

don't suggest a compromise... let him suggest it.  

Or let him be clear that there is NO compromise... .if that is his position... .(you guessed it... )  back to needing help understanding which paper towels are his and yours.  

I would demonstrate flexibility... extreme flexibility by offering to get two rolls of towels... one he can use... and one for you.

Why "feed" this?  

Well... .you either will get crystal clear boundaries... .yet ridiculous ones... .or... he will see it as ridiculous... .and compromise... or back down.

If you get crystal clear... but ridiculous boundaries... .and then he starts disregarding them... .back to needing help understanding why his boundaries aren't any good anymore.

How is it that you respect his boundaries... but he doesn't respect his own
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2015, 09:56:09 AM »

Might be worth a "help me understand... ." conversation about what stuff is his... .ours... .and yours... .etc etc.

After he is done drawing his boundaries... .if some are clearly being drawn around "family" things as his... .I would send it back his way... .with a "help me understand where we can compromise here... ."

don't suggest a compromise... let him suggest it.  

Or let him be clear that there is NO compromise... .if that is his position... .(you guessed it... )  back to needing help understanding which paper towels are his and yours.  

I would demonstrate flexibility... extreme flexibility by offering to get two rolls of towels... one he can use... and one for you.

Why "feed" this?  

Well... .you either will get crystal clear boundaries... .yet ridiculous ones... .or... he will see it as ridiculous... .and compromise... or back down.

If you get crystal clear... but ridiculous boundaries... .and then he starts disregarding them... .back to needing help understanding why his boundaries aren't any good anymore.

How is it that you respect his boundaries... but he doesn't respect his own

Good advice, Formflier. My husband has his own studio. I make no decisions there about how he keeps it. If he wants to let the dust bunnies grow big as rats, so be it. I think a lot of pwBPD were so damaged by FOO stuff that they need to have extra autonomy about stuff the rest of us take for granted (like sharing paper towels).
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2015, 09:59:36 AM »

FF, I do indulge his boundaries. I've cleared shelves in the pantry that are clearly his, shelves in the fridge, and he even has his own food stash and small fridge in his man den. This started because I do buy healthy food, and he likes junk food and that was tempting to the kids. I don't mind them having some treats, either, I'm not really a control freak when it comes to food, but it became evident that they needed to know which cookies were ours, and which ones were his.

It's the moving boundary without warning. I just kept the towels in the pantry. I usually don't run out, but we've been busy. That isn't a crisis, - we have cloth dishtowels and paper napkins until I get to the store. However, today I learned that I got into his towels. It may not even be about the towels but him looking to pick a fight.

Boundaries are important, especially relationship boundaries and personal items, but I also consider the relationship and what is worth picking about. Things like paper towels, I could care less about. If we run out, so what, I'll get more. The cost of ruining a relationship to me is much higher than the worth of a paper towel- even with a room mate- so this kind of thinking - who took my paper towels- is entirely foreign to me.

But I don't think any of this is really about the towels, or the food, because if it was, then the separate fridge, pantry space and even keeping two rolls of towels doesn't solve it. The boundary keeps moving. I think it is finding some way for him to deal with feeling either not important ( I should remember his questions, his stuff, his paper towels) or some other bad feeling. The way the conversation went yesterday was all about this ( you didn't remember what I said, you took my paper towels, if you cared about me, you'd have bought towels... .)

Cat said "I know he regularly beats himself up for really unimportant stuff and that's why he's so pained by anything that even resembles criticism."- my H does this and so did his dad get all over his case for everything, so he is always beating himself up about something. Sometimes I get to be the one he thinks is beating him up. I tend to get sensitive too, since mom would blow up sometimes at anything she perceived to be someone persecuting her.
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2015, 09:59:55 AM »

 

This is not an issue that I would ever advise a "non" to pursue out of the blue... .

But... since her hubby is bringing it up... .and "pushing it"... .go with it.

If he pushes back... ."why bring it up?"... .it was his choice to bring up issue.

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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2015, 10:01:22 AM »

My H has a man den in the basement, and his own office, his own small fridge, his own closets, his shelves on the pantry and in the fridge where he has his food.

I have half way joked about how we should consider a duplex- with one side being his, the other side ours.
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2015, 10:04:49 AM »

FF, good point, but yesterday he was rumbling to rage... and so anything I said back would have lit the fire.

He was also acting needy. He came to me for instructions to heat up some leftovers. He knows how to do this. I've showed him many times. It does irritate me, and so, I might have replied with a sense of being irritated, but that would be taking the bait.

I just showed him one more time how to do it, and then went on and did my own thing. I know what set him off. I was on the computer a lot doing things for work. He hates that. I could see him getting irritated. He also hasn't been given a good outlet to blame me for a rage and was poking at me.  Hoewver, we did go out later in the afternoon and watch the superbowl, so I didn't ignore him all day.
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2015, 10:05:00 AM »

 

notwendy,

I wouldn't drop the towel issue... .I wouldn't let him pick a fight about it either.

He's made it a boundary issue... .stick with that... .make sure you let him "fully explain it"... .since you love him and want to support his boundaries... .

Then... .it will be your turn... . to fully explain one of yours.

It has nothing to do with the paper towels... .it's about the concept.  He handed you a golden opportunity to "illustrate" the emotionally healthy way to conduct a r/s... .I recommend going for it.

I have had success by "running with" some things that my wife has brought up... .but were too perfect to let go.

Now that I have the knowledge... .I can use that to manage the conversation... and keep it positive... .or leave.

I have the persistence to keep bringing it up... .because it matters to her... .and I want to support and "understand" her position... .
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2015, 10:07:27 AM »

FF, good point, but yesterday he was rumbling to rage... and so anything I said back would have lit the fire.

Hopefully you are feeling confident enough... .that if the fire lights... .you know what to do. 

It's not your fault... .in way... avoiding a possible light... .could be enabling... .that is complex... .so not always the best course.

But... .if he is going to light it about something like paper towels... .don't stand in his way... .

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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2015, 10:07:46 AM »

Good point. I will buy some more towels, put his in his space and validate his need for this. Then I can also ask him. It was an opportunity, but I could tell he was disregulated at that moment, and there is nothing that gets through to him at that time. I also agree not to just let these things go.
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2015, 10:16:36 AM »

I agree that all the separation and going along with it is a form of enabling, but I really don't care how he wants it. If this is what he needs to deal with his fears of engulfment, then that's his issues. I guess it depends on the relationship goals for both of us. I have found that we get along better when he has some degree of separation. This kind of thing bothered me initially because I had some vision that a married couple would be closer, but getting too close to him usually results in an unpleasant situation for me. So this is also something that benefits me.

I don't think that relationships like this are going to fit our ideas of what is normal, but we can decide what our priorities are. We do honor the basic tenents of what a marriage is. I expect to be treated in a certain manner- not raged at, no verbal abuse. So if his keeping a lot of things separate allows us to maintain that, he can have it, even if I think it's a bit odd.

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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2015, 10:30:02 AM »

I'm also aware that he's rumbling for a rage and is so finding some kind of fault in things that I do, like finding some meaning in a question about a neighbor's child as evidence that I'm not listening to him ( doing something to him). If he's going to rage, he's going to rage... the best I can do is handle it.

I'm mostly trying to understand this behavior- living in a family almost as someone not related to the family- as if we had a person renting part of the house and not sharing things like food and paper towels. Has anyone experienced this?

My mom is super possessive too. Heaven help us if she finds we put something in the wrong place when we are at her house. It turns into that we did it on purpose- out to get her- instead of just accidentally putting something back in the wrong place. It is more peaceful if we don't stay there at all, since she will find something we did if we do.
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2015, 10:36:23 AM »

I agree that all the separation and going along with it is a form of enabling, but I really don't care how he wants it. If this is what he needs to deal with his fears of engulfment, then that's his issues. I guess it depends on the relationship goals for both of us. I have found that we get along better when he has some degree of separation. This kind of thing bothered me initially because I had some vision that a married couple would be closer, but getting too close to him usually results in an unpleasant situation for me. So this is also something that benefits me.

I don't think that relationships like this are going to fit our ideas of what is normal, but we can decide what our priorities are. We do honor the basic tenents of what a marriage is. I expect to be treated in a certain manner- not raged at, no verbal abuse. So if his keeping a lot of things separate allows us to maintain that, he can have it, even if I think it's a bit odd.

When my husband and I started the big addition to the small house I built years ago, I was the one who decided that he should have his own studio and I'm glad I did. At the time I realized that it would drive me a bit crazy to live with someone after so many years of being on my own. I wanted to be able to put something down and find it in the same place and I didn't want my piles of stuff to be messed with and I didn't want somebody else's piles of stuff to intrude upon my organizational system. (I was aware of my OCD before I could understand that I had it.)

Now I'm so glad that we have our own spaces. I insisted that there be no TV in the house, no big stereo system. I like quiet and nature sounds when I open the windows. I don't want human-created noise. It's not that I don't like music or TV, it's just that I don't want that to be the background noise of my life--and that's where my husband and I differ. I like tuning into my internal states, being with myself, thinking my thoughts, feeling my feelings. I'm my own best friend and I love myself.

My husband, on the other hand, is always muttering expletives under his breath. When I used to ask him what's wrong, he'd tell me that it was just something he did, or thought or forgot. So I can understand his constant need for distraction through TV, movies, books, magazines, music. It's not comfortable just sitting alone with his thoughts. Even when he used to meditate, it had to be a highly complex system--one that he was proud of how much he knew. (UGH--spiritual pride is the worst!)

Anyway, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but I think there is something important about your husband having his own stuff--some kind of identity issue apart from you and the kids. And yes, being in a working relationship with a pwBPD is going to be odd--no doubt about it. It's almost like your husband is individuating like he is a teenager developmentally. So I really think you're onto something by labeling it as a roommate issue. Maybe you can start writing his name on a portion of the eggs. (Snark)  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2015, 10:46:10 AM »

LOL, he has his own eggs!

Yes, I agree. His family is enmeshed. I've noticed this with my teens- their need to have their own space, their own stuff. However, I am the family cook and so far, nobody wants me to not share what I cook... .they love to eat it.

My kids know how to cook, but my H flat out refuses and also will hardly offer to cook for anyone but himself. He will grill steaks, and scramble eggs- and offer to cook some for me if he is cooking for himself. However, me making food for him is a big deal. His mom took total care of his dad that way, and also was very stoic, so food=love in his FOO.

This explains why he feels loved if I heat up his leftovers, and also feels rejected if I refuse. This may play into having his own food too. Maybe if he shares his food, it's something like enmeshment to him.

I don't mind that he has his own space ,or that he spends time pursuing things on his own. I've come to appreciate that space too, since it is more peaceful for me.

I'm completely opposite- pretty laid back about whose food is whose. Even when I was in college, I was fine with sharing, unless it got to the mooching stage, but that rarely happened. Mostly I had room mates who pitched in and shared too.
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2015, 10:49:08 AM »

 

Cat... .I'll continue the hijack!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I hate tv... .and distractions... .and my wife love it.  Right now... .she is "winning.". and the tv is on way to much.

But... .I count myself lucky... .a visit to her foo is about everyone being in same room to watch tv together...

Then... .when they really want to bond... .the decide which rooms to go to together... to watch "their own" show.

That's closeness.

Actually having an undistracted conversation in that family is a rare thing...

Sigh...

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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2015, 10:53:12 AM »

If this is what he needs to deal with his fears of engulfment, then that's his issues. 

One comment... .if you are fine with this... .then let it rest.  But... .I suspect since you mentioned it... .you are really not fine with it.

If you don't "appease" this... .or you go along with this in a manner that makes him have to explain himself... .or deal with his frustrations... .he just may get some T... .and move things forward.  Or... .he may not.

My point... or my strategy... .is that whenever my wife hands me an issue... .I try to run with it for all it's worth... .as long as I am running towards a more emotionally healthy place.

But... that is my strategy... .it has severed me well up to this point.

It may... .or may not be something you can blend into your strategy.

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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2015, 10:57:40 AM »

This explains why he feels loved if I heat up his leftovers, and also feels rejected if I refuse... .I've come to appreciate that space too, since it is more peaceful for me.

I'm completely opposite- pretty laid back about whose food is whose. Even when I was in college, I was fine with sharing, unless it got to the mooching stage, but that rarely happened. Mostly I had room mates who pitched in and shared too.

My husband does the "helpless" thing too when he wants me to do stuff for him--like make him an espresso or figure out how to get the stain out of a shirt. I've told him countless times how to do a variety of things, but then he always "forgets"--funny how that's OK, but if I don't remember what he said, it's a big deal. Like the other day, I mentioned what a neighbor had said about doing the road repair on our private road as a starting point and he rudely interrupted me until I said, "Yes, but I'm just introducing the topic because there's more information you haven't heard yet."

I don't have the patience of a saint and the pettiness and helplessness occasionally drives me crazy, particularly when the tolerance is not reciprocated.
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2015, 10:58:04 AM »

I'll hijack it too.

Actually having a conversation about anything is a rarity in my H's FOO.

But they all eat together, sometimes in silence, but they eat. Sometimes they have a competition over who can eat the most rolls. Who gets to the food first and who gets the most is a competition. Sometimes they make snarky comments to each other to see if they can get a reaction out of them.

The family did grow up poor, with just enough food at the table for everyone to get some. However, to get seconds you had to eat the fastest and get there first. It's odd now that they are adults and nobody thankfully is starving. In fact, there is a ton of food at the get togethers. Most are fortunate to have high metabolisms.

Maybe this plays into the nobody gets my food thing. In his FOO, he who has the most food wins. Maybe taking someone's food has some kind of emotional meaning.
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2015, 11:00:04 AM »

I would say that my H forgets a large part of what I say to him. He will ask me where my meeting is, what time it is, no matter how many times I say it. But heaven help me if I forget something he said to me... .or thinks he said.
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2015, 11:05:07 AM »

I would say that my H forgets a large part of what I say to him. He will ask me where my meeting is, what time it is, no matter how many times I say it. But heaven help me if I forget something he said to me... .or thinks he said.

Isn't that amazing? It's like we're soo disrespecting them if we don't remember every mumbling or mind read every thought they have. Mine gets upset if I can't hear something. I'll be running the blender and he'll say something and I'll ask him to repeat it because I didn't hear and that's enough for him to get irritated.
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2015, 11:05:17 AM »

 Notwendy,

I've got a thought... .

What if you doubled... .or tripled down on "doing food" for your hubby... .think of it as exponential validation.

Do you think that would soften him up... make him more flexible in areas that you want some changes?
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2015, 11:07:34 AM »

Notwendy,

I've got a thought... .

What if you doubled... .or tripled down on "doing food" for your hubby... .think of it as exponential validation.

Do you think that would soften him up... make him more flexible in areas that you want some changes?

If he's anything like mine, it just re-sets the level of expectations. I had to quit cooking for a while because he took it for granted until he had to start making things himself. Yesterday he made guacamole for his SuperBowl snack. He had no idea how time consuming it was all the years I did it for him.
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2015, 11:08:29 AM »

Actually, FF, over time, I have become more detached to my H's issues. I would like to understand him better- from the standpoint of being his partner and also so that I don't take things as personally as I did. If I know that his abandonment issues are his issues, then I can let go of them.

I used to feel the need to ask him about these things, but he has iron clad boundaries. Any personal question- sometimes any question- will feel like a violation to him. Maybe its a male/female thing. I don't mind as much being asked why I think or do something, but that question to my H does not work, and after years of trying, I realize it hurts me more to ask than to let it go.

I think you are striving for some sort of intimacy with your wife, and I agree with that. However, my wishes for that kind of thing didn't lead to anything that I consider happy for me- just awful rages.

My goal now is to accept that intimacy is going to be on his terms, since he can only do what he chooses to do. I'm more concerned with not being raged at or subjected to verbal abuse.
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« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2015, 11:13:10 AM »

Same as Cat said.

In fact the more I behave as the loving domestic caring wife, the more contemptuous he behaves. The more caring behavior I indulge him in, the more hateful he acts towards me.

This is the hitch. He identifies with his dad, but his mother is codependent and controlling- plays the role of the all loving mom, but with enmeshment and control. My H finds that being in his father's role- the gruff king of the house with mama scuttling around waiting on him hand and foot, is validating to him. However, when I step into mama's role, his reaction is to separate from me, and push me away.

I get to be either mom or dad to him in his mind.- the critical invalidating dad, or the endulfing mom. I try to just be me.
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2015, 11:20:21 AM »

Same as Cat said.

In fact the more I behave as the loving domestic caring wife, the more contemptuous he behaves. The more caring behavior I indulge him in, the more hateful he acts towards me.

This is the hitch. He identifies with his dad, but his mother is codependent and controlling- plays the role of the all loving mom, but with enmeshment and control. My H finds that being in his father's role- the gruff king of the house with mama scuttling around waiting on him hand and foot, is validating to him. However, when I step into mama's role, his reaction is to separate from me, and push me away.

I get to be either mom or dad to him in his mind.- the critical invalidating dad, or the endulfing mom. I try to just be me.

My husband had a similar FOO dynamic: raging narcissistic dad who was constantly invalidating and criticizing and sweet, ineffectual mom. It's horrifying to see him echo his father's behavior, particularly since he was so critical of and hurt by his dad, but when he does that superiority act, it's like talking to his dad.
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2015, 11:41:17 AM »

Yes, same here, but I've also dealt with mama. She's overall a nice lady, but she has a controlling side too. Since she couldn't stand up to dad, she's passive agressive. She also controlled things with her caretaking. She's also pretty cold and stoic.

One of my secret wishes when I got married was that maybe my MIL would be more like the mom I wished I had to me. On the outside she looks like that, but I don't want his mama either.

I've told him what I think of his dad, which he either agrees with or turns on me for being critical. However, I have joked to him that if he turns into his dad, I'm going to turn into my mom.    and he's seen my mom in action.
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2015, 11:50:40 AM »

 

Hey... .choices are powerful... .I'm fine with people making choices to keep status quo... .  My hope is that they are realizing they are doing that.

When nons upset the status quo... .it "forces" the pwBPD to change their game... .hopefully with tools and T... .it can be pushed to a more hopeful... emotionally healthy place.

I've been in a feisty mood for a couple of months... .I've been pitched some fastballs... .which I think I have knocked out of the park... .whether the changes stick... we'll see.

I still have no idea what my wife was really thinking when she sent me a naked pic of another woman... yet was accusing me of wanting this woman and that woman... .etc etc.

I think it was so embarrassing for her in MC... .she just accepted the new boundary... .and has stuck with it. 

No discussions of my desires for other women... .zero.

My life is immensely better.  I'm sure some of the pent up stress is showing up in other places... .I see my job as making sure that stress gets flicked back on her... .for her to learn to deal with... .instead of toss or blame on other people.

So... that's my theory... .and why I give advice the way I do.

I'm sure at some point... .I will decide some things aren't worth it... .but... for now... I'm feisty... .

 

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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2015, 11:53:16 AM »

 

Oh... .yeah... .she paints her mom black... most of time. 

She is right.

She unfortunately... .has some of those tendencies... .same as her mom.

I have seen the future.  I will not be married to someone that is anything close to her mom.

Which... is one reason why I am feisty.

To her credit... .my wife is the "pick of the litter"... .she really is. But... it is a spectrum thing... .I just need to push her back towards normal.

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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2015, 12:39:44 PM »

FF, I think I am in a different place with this than you are.

I don't have to paint my mom black- she does it to herself- done some pretty crazy stuff- she's at the end of the spectrum where one just can't hide it, but this doesn't mean she doesn't have some good qualities. One aspect is that dad was the caretaker and the rescuer, and mom was the one who was cared for. My H is not signing up to be anyone's caretaker. Like his dad, he wants to be married to one, so someone like my mom is the last person they'd want to be married to.

Where I saw the future get scary was how much my dad took care of my mom, and how helpless he allowed her to be. The paradox with me is that while my H wants to be taken care of, he also wants to be in control. He also doesn't tolerate any sense of helplessness in me. Asking him to do anything for me is likely to provoke a rage. However, he is the rescuer and hero for everyone else. When he gets home, he feels he's earned my cartaking for him. It's like he wears himself out doing for others who do not return his investment and that somehow entitles him to be mainly on the receiving end of that with me.

I burned myself out emotionally doing for this man in hopes of receiving just a little back of that stuff he gives to others and gave to me when we were dating. I lost myself and my sense of self. Ocasionally, he'd get my hopes up by giving me just enough to keep me hoping for more.

The only thing that would have made a difference for my parents would have been if dad had gotten some control of his codependent caretaking behavior. Mom was not motivate to change no matter what, and neither is my H.Note that that behavior only was about my mom, as he expected us kids to take care of ourselves. I don't think I even know what it is like to be with someone who really loves me in a healthy way, but my H does give me the best he can, that I believe, and he does work hard to support us.

I have come to accept that he is doing the best I can, and now, I wish to focus on me. If this means having the house divided in two, with his stuff and my stuff, so be it, but I can't be concerned about his emotional stuff anymore. I need to work on me.





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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2015, 01:44:26 PM »

  I need to work on me.

Solid choice! 

Choices are powerful!

One last question... .I see lots of things that talk about you "doing more"... .and not being happy with outcome. 

Can you tell us about times when you choose to "do less"... .expend less energy... .how did that work out?
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2015, 02:16:34 PM »

I don't think he likes it when I do less, and he loves it when I do more, but that can instigate the rejection reaction. I don't choose to do more or less as part of a way to manipulate him, but a way to protect me. I can tell if I am doing too much for someone because then, I can feel a sense of feeling used, or just that I am doing too much.

It's hard to discern. I am a giving person and I like to do nice things, but I have to check in with my own feelings. My H has a way of manipulating me into doing things for him, things that he can do for himself, but it means something to him if he can get me to do them. In the early part of our relationship, he'd insist that if we went somewhere, that I call, make the reservations. I thought that was a bit odd, but it didn't fit into something bigger. He'd also refuse to do dishes, something that seemed odd to as in college we'd all sort of get together with people- male/female and everyone would pitch in. I had other boyfriends who if I cooked dinner for them, they'd just help out. Not H. However, he was good to me in other ways. There was a bit of the push pull going on, but I was an independent person. He knew if he pushed these things too far, I'd leave, so he'd do it in small bits, and then confuse me. Once- only once, he made breakfast for us both- so I'd think he was that kind of guy, but never again after that.

This is the guy who knows how to make a sandwich, but he'd coerce me into doing it, because it "tasted better" that way. I didn't mind doing these things, but when kids came along, and I expected him to be an adult in the home, things got worse. Since he was a competent person outside of the home, and he supported us, it didn't make sense to me that this man would not make himself a sandwich or make one for the kids. He would take care of himself. I found it odd that he'd call me from work, telling me he was going to do me a favor, and pick up dinner for himself- so that I wouldn't have to cook for him. He'd give me the night off.  However, he would not pick up anything for me or the kids, and he'd be furious if I asked him. Although I tried to explain that cooking for me and the kids was still cooking dinner, and it was not a big deal to cook enough for him too, and that picking up his own dinner was not giving me a break, he didn't get that point.

He did in a sense, split the family into two in his mind: Him, and me and the kids.

Then he ramped it up- raised the bar on what I was to do for him, and it was never enough. Occasionally, he'd be a bit affectionate just to keep me hopeful, but then it was nothing along with raging and verbal abuse. I went along with it just to keep the peace and not subject the kids to the kind of raging in the home I grew up in. Eventually I got depressed but I remained on autopilot. I was a lot like a stepford wife- he got what he wanted, but I was depressed and not present from the relationship. I would keep on "doing more" for him because I thought that if I met his expectations, maybe he'd finally give me the love I wanted so badly from him. All I wanted was for my husband to love me, show me affection, be caring. I am not high maintenance. A little would have gone a long way.

This is an example of you don't know what you have till it's gone, and he does have some awareness that he had a hand in ruining what was probably the best thing that ever happened to him: a loving and caring wife. I'm not perfect, but I have been kind, and honorable in our marriage and I am a good mother. He has made some changes to get things back. It has been hard.

When we first started T, I was doing everything for him out of fear. All of it was motivated by fear of his rages. I told the T that I was afraid not to cook his dinner, not to have sex when he wanted it, afraid to ask him to do anything. I actually would imagine myself as his employee. He supported us, I was earning my keep. There was not much else to the relationship for me at the time.

She then explained co-dependency to me, as well as told my H that me doing something out of fear was not from the heart, and if he wanted something from the heart, he'd better let me choose. He may have gotten his dinner, but it was also a plate full of resentment. Most of the time, I cook for me and the kids anyway, so dinner isn't the only issue. However, there was a distinction in my motivation. I cook for the kids out of love. For him, it was fear of his rages.

I do less, not because I choose not to care about him, but I do less so that I can get in touch with me, and do something from the heart. It's a hard transition. Does he like it? I don't know, but it is what I need to do to take care of me. If this sounds sad, it is. Some of my posts are about me still being sad for what happened.


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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2015, 02:32:47 PM »

I don't think he likes it when I do less, and he loves it when I do more, but that can instigate the rejection reaction. I don't choose to do more or less as part of a way to manipulate him, but a way to protect me.

Hmmm... .interesting way to put it.  I suppose I can see the point of saying this is a manipulation... .but... .as nons if a direct ask doesn't work... .we have to use the tools at our disposal.  If those tools cause a pwBPD discomfort... .and they change... .I personally would not use the word "manipulate"... .as I see that having a bit of an evil connotation(IMO)... .however... .I do see the point.

I would also point out to everyone reading... .that it is common for pwBPD to claim that nons are trying to control them... .or manipulate them... .please don't fall for this.  If you are making emotionally healthy decisions... .it's not a manipulation.

Might be splitting hairs here.


When we first started T, I was doing everything for him out of fear. All of it was motivated by fear of his rages. I told the T that I was afraid not to cook his dinner, not to have sex when he wanted it, afraid to ask him to do anything. I actually would imagine myself as his employee. He supported us, I was earning my keep. There was not much else to the relationship for me at the time.

She then explained co-dependency to me, as well as told my H that me doing something out of fear was not from the heart, and if he wanted something from the heart, he'd better let me choose. He may have gotten his dinner, but it was also a plate full of resentment. Most of the time, I cook for me and the kids anyway, so dinner isn't the only issue. However, there was a distinction in my motivation. I cook for the kids out of love. For him, it was fear of his rages.

I do less, not because I choose not to care about him, but I do less so that I can get in touch with me, and do something from the heart. It's a hard transition. Does he like it? I don't know, but it is what I need to do to take care of me. If this sounds sad, it is. Some of my posts are about me still being sad for what happened.

What are you guys working on in T now?

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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2015, 02:35:49 PM »

  I need to work on me.

Solid choice! 

Choices are powerful!

One last question... .I see lots of things that talk about you "doing more"... .and not being happy with outcome. 

Can you tell us about times when you choose to "do less"... .expend less energy... .how did that work out?

I can answer that question in my relationship. After he retired and we moved in together, it became apparent that my husband is not a "doer" and that role would fall in my lap just about entirely. I would get so burned out after a day of fixing things, doing yard work, and taking care of animals and then I would come into the house and be greeted by my husband, who had sat around watching TV and reading all day. He would ask me, "What are we doing later?" Translated that meant, "what are you cooking for dinner tonight?

Having lived on my own for years, and being quite thin, mostly a vegetarian and satisfied with a dinner of a smoothie or a salad, this did not go over well, day after day because what I considered "dinner" was considered by him as "not having any food." I would cook big meals on occasion, but since I worked in the food industry for years, I'm pretty burned out on preparing food. So I didn't mind cooking a few times a week, but when it seemed to become my complete responsibility, along with all the property maintenance, I started feeling like not only am I being a wife, I'm being a husband!

I do need to add that he would take us out to dinner at least once a week, but when he expected that I make dinner every night, I became resentful, particularly because he just lived in his little self-indulgent slothful world, while I was the maid, the veterinarian, the cook, the house cleaner, the ranch hand, the farmer, the handyman, the office manager and the horse trainer. Not that he cared about some of these roles, that were of my own choosing, but it just galled me that he didn't take responsibility for any food preparation and when I did that after a long day, he would sit in the kitchen and read and then leave to watch TV while I cleaned up.

Some guys just don't understand how much work it is to prepare meals, clean up, and keep the kitchen clean and organized.

So I just quit for a while. He was on his own and boy, did I get the poor me attitude. You'd think his ribs would be countable after not having a meal for a few hours!

Gradually it got better. I was less resentful and kept on preparing meals a few times a week. He learned to like leftovers. Occasionally he will actually prepare a meal. But more often, we will go out to dinner.
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2015, 02:43:44 PM »

 

My  dance with my wifes BPD started on a small farm.  Bit unique... .so I unfortunately... .am familiar with whacky discussions about chores and what was fair... .especially when horses needed to be fed, trimmed... .whatever.

So have her sniff about how it should be done better... .well... .that was before I knew about BPD... but I would hand over the shovel... .and tell her that I learned much better by watching someone... .that listening... .heheheheh  

Unfortunately... .I would participate in the fights... call names.  In fact... .if you guys have picked up a trait of mine... .I like to win... .I don't give up. 

If it came down to it... .I can win a BPD argument... .NOT a good plan... .but I have proven I can do it.  I also know that those tactics came close to destroying my family.  But... .I was right!  and I won!   

Anyway... .I'm curious... .what happens when you ask him to do something... to cook... .to get something ready?

I started out in food service... .so I like doing it... .but I don't much anymore... .seems that only so many cooks can be in the kitchen... !

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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2015, 02:45:53 PM »

 

I've also stepped away from doing lots of chores around the house.  This has been going on for months... .I need to get back in there.

But... .if I'm cleaning the bathroom... .and you walk in and b$tch about the kitchen not being done... .while I am in the middle of something... .  Nahh... .I quit... .

At some point I need to get back in there... .and work the tools... .
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2015, 02:46:26 PM »

Cat, I'm not sure what we are working on in T. We hardly go now. My H went because we were in a bad place and I think he realized he had to make some kind of effort. He does not want us to split.

I wrote elsewhere that the T is focused on me- the co-dependent one. My H doesn't have a clue about what to work on. Sometimes he says he has no idea what to say in there. However, the T is a pretty woman and he does like to act like Mr. Charming with her. Not flirty, but charming. I have written before that either she is fooled by him or working on me since he's not likely to do the work.

We did work on the rages. One plus is that he catches himself being triggered. I also save up anything difficult to talk about for when she can act as referree. Mostly I have done a lot of my own work with codependency and 12 step groups. This has been the biggest change. We do get along better since we have better boundaries and I don't take what he says personally. We can actually enjoy some things together. But heart- to- heart talks are off the table.

I read where your H likes you to do things too. I never understood the "taker" mentality. It just seemed to me to be a life out of balance. There's a joy in giving from the heart, that I think they can miss out on. I'd rather be a giver.
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2015, 02:49:54 PM »

 

Most likely your T understands you have the capacity to change... .and that your change can "manipulate" (sorry... .had to go there... .  bad FF... .bad... .)  him into going in a more positive direction.


I have friends that are in the counseling business... .and I've heard this from them many times.  it's not about right or wrong... .it's about changing the dynamic.  They don't want to waste your time... or theirs... .

Why not go more to T?  Give it a solid chance?

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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2015, 02:52:23 PM »

FF, let me tell you about "winning".

My vision of a r/s is that there are no winners or losers, and if one plays that game, there are only losers. To me, a husband and wife are a team, and the same team, and sometimes giving in to what the other wants can be a way of both winning. In a healthy r/s- at least what I imagine one is, there is a give and take.

My H goes for the win, at all costs, the raging, the criticizing. I'm too soft hearted. I can't hold up to it. I give in. He wins every time.

He's the winner alright. He gets what he wants. He gets to win. He got the things that he wanted, the services from me that he wanted.


In doing so, he lost the trusting and open love I had for him. Don't ruin your marriage to win.

As to the T, I'd go more, but my H has to take off work to go, and so controls how often we go. I can push for more, but he can also pull the work card. He doesn't want to go at all, just does it because I want to go, so he can limit it and has an excuse.

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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2015, 03:02:49 PM »

It's such a paradox too. This man is loving to his kids, his parents, at work. It's like he is two people- co-dependent in a way to some people- his family in particular. He can't do enough for his parents. He also works hard, and can be generous.

Yet he couldn't give me the one thing I wanted, love, for years,
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« Reply #40 on: February 02, 2015, 03:07:33 PM »

My  dance with my wifes BPD started on a small farm.  Bit unique... .so I unfortunately... .am familiar with whacky discussions about chores and what was fair... .especially when horses needed to be fed, trimmed... .whatever.

So have her sniff about how it should be done better... .well... .that was before I knew about BPD... but I would hand over the shovel... .and tell her that I learned much better by watching someone... .that listening... .heheheheh  

Unfortunately... .I would participate in the fights... call names.  In fact... .if you guys have picked up a trait of mine... .I like to win... .I don't give up. 

If it came down to it... .I can win a BPD argument... .NOT a good plan... .but I have proven I can do it.  I also know that those tactics came close to destroying my family.  But... .I was right!  and I won!   

Anyway... .I'm curious... .what happens when you ask him to do something... to cook... .to get something ready?

I started out in food service... .so I like doing it... .but I don't much anymore... .seems that only so many cooks can be in the kitchen... !

The one area of food preparation he will do is barbecue. However if it's my idea, he's not too pleased to be called into service on my terms. I'm going to test that because I just ordered a big box of frozen grass fed beef. If I eat meat at all, I refuse to eat the meat with antibiotics and hormones and he thinks I'm being really picky. Now he will have no excuse for not feeding himself (and me) since the freezer will be full.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #41 on: February 02, 2015, 03:10:35 PM »

It's such a paradox too. This man is loving to his kids, his parents, at work. It's like he is two people- co-dependent in a way to some people- his family in particular. He can't do enough for his parents. He also works hard, and can be generous.

Yet he couldn't give me the one thing I wanted, love, for years,

What does he say about this in T?  This is a great question for a T to ask... .so they can be the boogeyman... .and not you.

Doesn't mean it can be fixed... .but if there is effort... .there is a chance... .a chance for a better future.

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« Reply #42 on: February 02, 2015, 03:10:47 PM »

My vision of a r/s is that there are no winners or losers, and if one plays that game, there are only losers. To me, a husband and wife are a team, and the same team, and sometimes giving in to what the other wants can be a way of both winning. In a healthy r/s- at least what I imagine one is, there is a give and take.

My H goes for the win, at all costs, the raging, the criticizing. I'm too soft hearted. I can't hold up to it. I give in. He wins every time.

He's the winner alright. He gets what he wants. He gets to win. He got the things that he wanted, the services from me that he wanted.

In doing so, he lost the trusting and open love I had for him. Don't ruin your marriage to win.

When in the past, we'd argue, I never thought of it in terms of winning or losing, but he always did. Perhaps since my husband is an attorney, he's more tuned into analyzing wins and losses, but it seems to me if anybody loses, both people lose.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #43 on: February 02, 2015, 03:13:39 PM »

 

Another note about winning... .

Very true!  Fighting fire with fire doesn't work... .the tools here work... .they might not get you a win... .that is really not the goal.  The goal is to unsettle the equilibrium... .to take away their ammunition... .to sooth their rough spots... .to drop the temp... so that real work might start.

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« Reply #44 on: February 02, 2015, 03:36:40 PM »

Another note about winning... .

Very true!  Fighting fire with fire doesn't work... .the tools here work... .they might not get you a win... .that is really not the goal.  The goal is to unsettle the equilibrium... .to take away their ammunition... .to sooth their rough spots... .to drop the temp... so that real work might start.

Hmm, this is interesting... .  I'm not here to debate this claim, I just have a completely different perspective.

Our relationship improved dramatically once I stepped away from focusing on him.  Using the tools, studying the lessons, etc... have been a lot of the real work in healing myself, connecting to myself, recognizing many of my own dysfunctional ways, soothing my own rough spots, regaining my own equilibrium, creating a safer environment for our relationship to flourish.

I cannot change him and once I let that really sink in, so didn't try to, he showed up in ways I never dreamt imaginable.  And that's saying A LOT, because I can have some pretty far-out fantasies Smiling (click to insert in post)



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« Reply #45 on: February 02, 2015, 04:52:06 PM »

Phoebe, I'm doing exactly what you said, focusing on my own recovery, not so much in how to fix "us" or him, since all I can do is work on me.

I am glad things got better for you. In ways, we are better, but it is still fairly early in the changes I have made with myself. I would be happy if good things show up as they did for you. Time will tell.
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« Reply #46 on: February 02, 2015, 05:07:03 PM »

That's awesome, Notwendy Smiling (click to insert in post)  And thanks.  There are so many aspects to our relationships...   We don't live together, so there's lots of space for us to do our own things, be as weird as we want to be, haha.  For all I know my bf might be a secret paper towel hoarder, too Smiling (click to insert in post)  And like you, I'd question it to myself (or here), but wouldn't try to get him to stop.

Maybe I enable him in some ways, not really sure.  I'm not cryin' the blues about anything, so whatever we're both doing seems to work for us.

Also, knowing myself and the way my brain works, I'd question the things that anybody I was dating was doing.  I've gotten a little better at keeping it to myself, but sometimes things slip out, he'll question my reasoning, and I end up cracking up!  His wit is amazing!  Keeps me on my toes Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #47 on: February 02, 2015, 05:17:38 PM »

Phoebe, I don't think its such a bad idea to not be living together.

Sharing space, food and other things isn't easy for some people. Although the duplex idea is something I joke about, and H would not consider it, I can see it working in some ways, especially if he likes to have his own stuff.
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« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2015, 05:30:16 PM »

Phoebe, I don't think its such a bad idea to not be living together.

Sharing space, food and other things isn't easy for some people. Although the duplex idea is something I joke about, and H would not consider it, I can see it working in some ways, especially if he likes to have his own stuff.

The duplex idea isn't a bad one at all.  I've often thought that I would need my own wing in order to live together.  Not because of him, but because of my own need for space.  I work with people all day long and when I get home, I need time to relax, to kinda reset, peace and quiet. 

I think it was formflier who mentioned his wife's FOO and the tv's going all the time.  I couldn't handle that.  My bf likes background noise, too-- or flipping tv channels, changing radio stations... .  He loves music and is up to date on world affairs, sports stats, interesting tidbits of things... .(very much like my mom in that regard)  I'm like my dad, where I'm more comfortable with my own thoughts.  I love music too and can belt out the tunes with the best of 'em (not always in tune... .), but prefer it in smaller doses.  Guess we're all different.
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« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2015, 01:16:28 PM »

My H is very territorial about what he believes is "his" stuff. That's fine with me to a certain extent. We should all have our own personal stuff and areas, including the kids. I don't take my kids' toys, clothing, etc, I don't want anyone taking my personal belongings.

However, he behaves more as if we were room mates than a family. I remember in college that it would be a problem if one room mate ate everyone else's food, without contributing to the cost or buying some too. However, we are a family and the food budget includes all of us. I do understand that my H would want to have some of his own favorite foods, I do too, but I found that the best way to manage this is for him to have an extra fridge that is his, and his own shelves on the pantry. If anyone takes something of his, he is sure to notice and to ask " who ate MY ______?".

I don't work that way. With a family, especially older kids, I have no idea who eats how many cookies and it isn't an issue for me as long as they eat healthy meals and they are in good health, normal weight, at the doctors, which they are. So I have no need to monitor the cookies. I can understand if my H is disappointed when someone eats the cookies he likes, but if I notice that the cookies are gone, I just think well, time to buy more.

The more he gets his own space, things, the more the boundary moves to more things. He hasn't raged at me in a while, thanks to the lessons here. However, it's a cycle which means when he gets irritated, he starts poking at me to get a reaction so he can let it out and blame me for it.

It was mentioned on another thread that caretakers are attracted to people with BP that they can rescue and it gives them a sense of "power up". My H is an enigma in that he is both. He has to have power up, which results in him saying things that are condescending and judgemental to me. If I react, then that opens the road for a full blame me for it rage, keeping him in the blameless power up position. To everyone else- at work and his family, he is the "hero" the rescuer, the good guy, but with me, he wants to be taken care of: cooked for, nurtured, loved, but he is not so willing to do this in return as this make him feel as if he is being told what to do like a servant in his mind. He wants to be the one served.

So yesterday, he was irritable and pushing buttons. I didn't bite. He was aggravated that we were out of paper towels. I was not aware that we were, nor was I aware that he had bought some of them. However, he then announced that he had bought some and that someone had taken his paper towels (huh? that was news to me, I thought paper towels were just there and would buy some when I went out. ). He did go to the store and buy some- and they are his towels. Now, I suppose I will need to go get some more and leave his alone.

He also was poking at everything I said. I asked a question about one of our kids, to which he replied "You already asked about kid" yes, I did, but I wanted to know more information. So I just dropped the subject. We drove by a neighbors house and I remembered that the kid had been attending college and so I said, just to make conversation, "He's at college X now" to which the reply was " I told you that two months ago, do you not remember that? ". Well no, I had heard about the college but I had heard it from friends, his family and other people too. I was not making some kind of statement he didn't know, but just chit chatting" I simply replied that I appologize for not remembering"  and let the conversation go as it wasn't worth getting into it or explaining (JADE).

So, great, no escalation because I didn't bite the bait. I really don't care enough about the neighbor kid or the paper towels to make it into anything. He can think what he thinks ( he's going to regardless).

I don't get the room mate thing, except that his FOO is enmeshed and I think he keeps all kinds of barriers to avoid feeling that. However, our home is slowly being divided into his stuff/the family stuff(me and the kids) and the boundary keeps moving. In the grand scheme of things, I don't much care. He can have his own house if he wants to have everything in his space all to himself ( He's not going to move though) as long as we have our family space too. It's just wierd to me.

Not really... .definitely keeps the "intimacy" at bay doesnʻt it?  The arch nemesis of a PD.
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« Reply #50 on: February 09, 2015, 02:01:31 PM »

"Not really... .definitely keeps the "intimacy" at bay doesnʻt it?  The arch nemesis of a PD."

You're right about this. I have found that a certain amount of distance keeps us on even keel. He used to love that I'd try so hard to get close to him. He loved that attention from me. I would just spin my wheels trying and occasionally he'd pay some back to me to keep me trying. If I keep a distance from him, he will also pursue to keep me interested- the push pull, but that would be playing along with it...

I don't want to play. I find middle ground to be a more comfortable place. Is it intimate? No, and it gets really lonely. However, we have kids, work well as a family. We do our separate roles well. For now, it gives me some space to recover when there is less drama. It's different from WOE which kept my focus on him.

And I bought plenty of paper towels.

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« Reply #51 on: February 18, 2015, 02:52:18 PM »

"

I don't want to play. 

How long do you feel like you have been "stable" in your middle ground area where you are "not playing"?

I suspect I am heading to a situation like that... .just trying to figure out what it will look like.
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« Reply #52 on: February 18, 2015, 06:26:37 PM »

FF, I think intent is everything. For many years I was in middle ground, but it was WOE. It was designed to not trigger him- it was focused on him, not me, so it came from a codependent place. I think any time we do this, it is something destructive to the relationship.

For me now, it isn't to avoid his rages. I've come to a place where I still don't like them, but I don't fear them and they don't trigger me. The "middle ground" is more of a change in me. I am less reactive to him, and neither do I pursue him for conversation that he isn't comfortable doing. When I do talk, I keep the focus on me.

I mentioned that much of what I say that is personal to my H- about him in any way- goes down that rabbit hole of what he hears as criticism. It almost isn't worth saying as he doesn't hear it as I intend it. Middle ground is also a way of respecting his boundaries- too close is too much. I think this has helped diffuse some of the conflict and anger. We don't have those awful times where I JADE and cry. Of course I am using them with the tools on this site.

I am also not doing them to keep the peace or something to him. I am doing it to give me some space to sort out my feelings. When I feel fear, anger, resentment- then there isn't much space for me to feel other things. I have actually felt myself to feel softer and more forgiving and affectionate when I can stop the anger for myself. I think it gives me a place to listen to my own feelings.

It can be a lonely place though too. I love the idea of those heart to heart talks with a spouse, but I can't force them either.
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