My husband, my room mate

[formflier]

  I need to work on me.

Solid choice! 

Choices are powerful!

One last question... .I see lots of things that talk about you "doing more"... .and not being happy with outcome. 

Can you tell us about times when you choose to "do less"... .expend less energy... .how did that work out?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Notwendy]

I don't think he likes it when I do less, and he loves it when I do more, but that can instigate the rejection reaction. I don't choose to do more or less as part of a way to manipulate him, but a way to protect me. I can tell if I am doing too much for someone because then, I can feel a sense of feeling used, or just that I am doing too much.

It's hard to discern. I am a giving person and I like to do nice things, but I have to check in with my own feelings. My H has a way of manipulating me into doing things for him, things that he can do for himself, but it means something to him if he can get me to do them. In the early part of our relationship, he'd insist that if we went somewhere, that I call, make the reservations. I thought that was a bit odd, but it didn't fit into something bigger. He'd also refuse to do dishes, something that seemed odd to as in college we'd all sort of get together with people- male/female and everyone would pitch in. I had other boyfriends who if I cooked dinner for them, they'd just help out. Not H. However, he was good to me in other ways. There was a bit of the push pull going on, but I was an independent person. He knew if he pushed these things too far, I'd leave, so he'd do it in small bits, and then confuse me. Once- only once, he made breakfast for us both- so I'd think he was that kind of guy, but never again after that.

This is the guy who knows how to make a sandwich, but he'd coerce me into doing it, because it "tasted better" that way. I didn't mind doing these things, but when kids came along, and I expected him to be an adult in the home, things got worse. Since he was a competent person outside of the home, and he supported us, it didn't make sense to me that this man would not make himself a sandwich or make one for the kids. He would take care of himself. I found it odd that he'd call me from work, telling me he was going to do me a favor, and pick up dinner for himself- so that I wouldn't have to cook for him. He'd give me the night off.  However, he would not pick up anything for me or the kids, and he'd be furious if I asked him. Although I tried to explain that cooking for me and the kids was still cooking dinner, and it was not a big deal to cook enough for him too, and that picking up his own dinner was not giving me a break, he didn't get that point.

He did in a sense, split the family into two in his mind: Him, and me and the kids.

Then he ramped it up- raised the bar on what I was to do for him, and it was never enough. Occasionally, he'd be a bit affectionate just to keep me hopeful, but then it was nothing along with raging and verbal abuse. I went along with it just to keep the peace and not subject the kids to the kind of raging in the home I grew up in. Eventually I got depressed but I remained on autopilot. I was a lot like a stepford wife- he got what he wanted, but I was depressed and not present from the relationship. I would keep on "doing more" for him because I thought that if I met his expectations, maybe he'd finally give me the love I wanted so badly from him. All I wanted was for my husband to love me, show me affection, be caring. I am not high maintenance. A little would have gone a long way.

This is an example of you don't know what you have till it's gone, and he does have some awareness that he had a hand in ruining what was probably the best thing that ever happened to him: a loving and caring wife. I'm not perfect, but I have been kind, and honorable in our marriage and I am a good mother. He has made some changes to get things back. It has been hard.

When we first started T, I was doing everything for him out of fear. All of it was motivated by fear of his rages. I told the T that I was afraid not to cook his dinner, not to have sex when he wanted it, afraid to ask him to do anything. I actually would imagine myself as his employee. He supported us, I was earning my keep. There was not much else to the relationship for me at the time.

She then explained co-dependency to me, as well as told my H that me doing something out of fear was not from the heart, and if he wanted something from the heart, he'd better let me choose. He may have gotten his dinner, but it was also a plate full of resentment. Most of the time, I cook for me and the kids anyway, so dinner isn't the only issue. However, there was a distinction in my motivation. I cook for the kids out of love. For him, it was fear of his rages.

I do less, not because I choose not to care about him, but I do less so that I can get in touch with me, and do something from the heart. It's a hard transition. Does he like it? I don't know, but it is what I need to do to take care of me. If this sounds sad, it is. Some of my posts are about me still being sad for what happened.

[formflier]

I don't think he likes it when I do less, and he loves it when I do more, but that can instigate the rejection reaction. I don't choose to do more or less as part of a way to manipulate him, but a way to protect me.

Hmmm... .interesting way to put it.  I suppose I can see the point of saying this is a manipulation... .but... .as nons if a direct ask doesn't work... .we have to use the tools at our disposal.  If those tools cause a pwBPD discomfort... .and they change... .I personally would not use the word "manipulate"... .as I see that having a bit of an evil connotation(IMO)... .however... .I do see the point.

I would also point out to everyone reading... .that it is common for pwBPD to claim that nons are trying to control them... .or manipulate them... .please don't fall for this.  If you are making emotionally healthy decisions... .it's not a manipulation.

Might be splitting hairs here.

When we first started T, I was doing everything for him out of fear. All of it was motivated by fear of his rages. I told the T that I was afraid not to cook his dinner, not to have sex when he wanted it, afraid to ask him to do anything. I actually would imagine myself as his employee. He supported us, I was earning my keep. There was not much else to the relationship for me at the time.

She then explained co-dependency to me, as well as told my H that me doing something out of fear was not from the heart, and if he wanted something from the heart, he'd better let me choose. He may have gotten his dinner, but it was also a plate full of resentment. Most of the time, I cook for me and the kids anyway, so dinner isn't the only issue. However, there was a distinction in my motivation. I cook for the kids out of love. For him, it was fear of his rages.

I do less, not because I choose not to care about him, but I do less so that I can get in touch with me, and do something from the heart. It's a hard transition. Does he like it? I don't know, but it is what I need to do to take care of me. If this sounds sad, it is. Some of my posts are about me still being sad for what happened.

What are you guys working on in T now?

[Cat Familiar]

  I need to work on me.

Solid choice! 

Choices are powerful!

One last question... .I see lots of things that talk about you "doing more"... .and not being happy with outcome. 

Can you tell us about times when you choose to "do less"... .expend less energy... .how did that work out?

I can answer that question in my relationship. After he retired and we moved in together, it became apparent that my husband is not a "doer" and that role would fall in my lap just about entirely. I would get so burned out after a day of fixing things, doing yard work, and taking care of animals and then I would come into the house and be greeted by my husband, who had sat around watching TV and reading all day. He would ask me, "What are we doing later?" Translated that meant, "what are you cooking for dinner tonight?

Having lived on my own for years, and being quite thin, mostly a vegetarian and satisfied with a dinner of a smoothie or a salad, this did not go over well, day after day because what I considered "dinner" was considered by him as "not having any food." I would cook big meals on occasion, but since I worked in the food industry for years, I'm pretty burned out on preparing food. So I didn't mind cooking a few times a week, but when it seemed to become my complete responsibility, along with all the property maintenance, I started feeling like not only am I being a wife, I'm being a husband!

I do need to add that he would take us out to dinner at least once a week, but when he expected that I make dinner every night, I became resentful, particularly because he just lived in his little self-indulgent slothful world, while I was the maid, the veterinarian, the cook, the house cleaner, the ranch hand, the farmer, the handyman, the office manager and the horse trainer. Not that he cared about some of these roles, that were of my own choosing, but it just galled me that he didn't take responsibility for any food preparation and when I did that after a long day, he would sit in the kitchen and read and then leave to watch TV while I cleaned up.

Some guys just don't understand how much work it is to prepare meals, clean up, and keep the kitchen clean and organized.

So I just quit for a while. He was on his own and boy, did I get the poor me attitude. You'd think his ribs would be countable after not having a meal for a few hours!

Gradually it got better. I was less resentful and kept on preparing meals a few times a week. He learned to like leftovers. Occasionally he will actually prepare a meal. But more often, we will go out to dinner.

[formflier]

 

My  dance with my wifes BPD started on a small farm.  Bit unique... .so I unfortunately... .am familiar with whacky discussions about chores and what was fair... .especially when horses needed to be fed, trimmed... .whatever.

So have her sniff about how it should be done better... .well... .that was before I knew about BPD... but I would hand over the shovel... .and tell her that I learned much better by watching someone... .that listening... .heheheheh  

Unfortunately... .I would participate in the fights... call names.  In fact... .if you guys have picked up a trait of mine... .I like to win... .I don't give up. 

If it came down to it... .I can win a BPD argument... .NOT a good plan... .but I have proven I can do it.  I also know that those tactics came close to destroying my family.  But... .I was right!  and I won!   

Anyway... .I'm curious... .what happens when you ask him to do something... to cook... .to get something ready?

I started out in food service... .so I like doing it... .but I don't much anymore... .seems that only so many cooks can be in the kitchen... !

[formflier]

 

I've also stepped away from doing lots of chores around the house.  This has been going on for months... .I need to get back in there.

But... .if I'm cleaning the bathroom... .and you walk in and b$tch about the kitchen not being done... .while I am in the middle of something... .  Nahh... .I quit... .

At some point I need to get back in there... .and work the tools... .

[Notwendy]

Cat, I'm not sure what we are working on in T. We hardly go now. My H went because we were in a bad place and I think he realized he had to make some kind of effort. He does not want us to split.

I wrote elsewhere that the T is focused on me- the co-dependent one. My H doesn't have a clue about what to work on. Sometimes he says he has no idea what to say in there. However, the T is a pretty woman and he does like to act like Mr. Charming with her. Not flirty, but charming. I have written before that either she is fooled by him or working on me since he's not likely to do the work.

We did work on the rages. One plus is that he catches himself being triggered. I also save up anything difficult to talk about for when she can act as referree. Mostly I have done a lot of my own work with codependency and 12 step groups. This has been the biggest change. We do get along better since we have better boundaries and I don't take what he says personally. We can actually enjoy some things together. But heart- to- heart talks are off the table.

I read where your H likes you to do things too. I never understood the "taker" mentality. It just seemed to me to be a life out of balance. There's a joy in giving from the heart, that I think they can miss out on. I'd rather be a giver.

[formflier]

 

Most likely your T understands you have the capacity to change... .and that your change can "manipulate" (sorry... .had to go there... .  bad FF... .bad... .)  him into going in a more positive direction.


I have friends that are in the counseling business... .and I've heard this from them many times.  it's not about right or wrong... .it's about changing the dynamic.  They don't want to waste your time... or theirs... .

Why not go more to T?  Give it a solid chance?

[Notwendy]

FF, let me tell you about "winning".

My vision of a r/s is that there are no winners or losers, and if one plays that game, there are only losers. To me, a husband and wife are a team, and the same team, and sometimes giving in to what the other wants can be a way of both winning. In a healthy r/s- at least what I imagine one is, there is a give and take.

My H goes for the win, at all costs, the raging, the criticizing. I'm too soft hearted. I can't hold up to it. I give in. He wins every time.

He's the winner alright. He gets what he wants. He gets to win. He got the things that he wanted, the services from me that he wanted.


In doing so, he lost the trusting and open love I had for him. Don't ruin your marriage to win.

As to the T, I'd go more, but my H has to take off work to go, and so controls how often we go. I can push for more, but he can also pull the work card. He doesn't want to go at all, just does it because I want to go, so he can limit it and has an excuse.

[Notwendy]

It's such a paradox too. This man is loving to his kids, his parents, at work. It's like he is two people- co-dependent in a way to some people- his family in particular. He can't do enough for his parents. He also works hard, and can be generous.

Yet he couldn't give me the one thing I wanted, love, for years,

[Cat Familiar]

My  dance with my wifes BPD started on a small farm.  Bit unique... .so I unfortunately... .am familiar with whacky discussions about chores and what was fair... .especially when horses needed to be fed, trimmed... .whatever.

So have her sniff about how it should be done better... .well... .that was before I knew about BPD... but I would hand over the shovel... .and tell her that I learned much better by watching someone... .that listening... .heheheheh  

Unfortunately... .I would participate in the fights... call names.  In fact... .if you guys have picked up a trait of mine... .I like to win... .I don't give up. 

If it came down to it... .I can win a BPD argument... .NOT a good plan... .but I have proven I can do it.  I also know that those tactics came close to destroying my family.  But... .I was right!  and I won!   

Anyway... .I'm curious... .what happens when you ask him to do something... to cook... .to get something ready?

I started out in food service... .so I like doing it... .but I don't much anymore... .seems that only so many cooks can be in the kitchen... !

The one area of food preparation he will do is barbecue. However if it's my idea, he's not too pleased to be called into service on my terms. I'm going to test that because I just ordered a big box of frozen grass fed beef. If I eat meat at all, I refuse to eat the meat with antibiotics and hormones and he thinks I'm being really picky. Now he will have no excuse for not feeding himself (and me) since the freezer will be full.

[formflier]

It's such a paradox too. This man is loving to his kids, his parents, at work. It's like he is two people- co-dependent in a way to some people- his family in particular. He can't do enough for his parents. He also works hard, and can be generous.

Yet he couldn't give me the one thing I wanted, love, for years,

What does he say about this in T?  This is a great question for a T to ask... .so they can be the boogeyman... .and not you.

Doesn't mean it can be fixed... .but if there is effort... .there is a chance... .a chance for a better future.

[Cat Familiar]

My vision of a r/s is that there are no winners or losers, and if one plays that game, there are only losers. To me, a husband and wife are a team, and the same team, and sometimes giving in to what the other wants can be a way of both winning. In a healthy r/s- at least what I imagine one is, there is a give and take.

My H goes for the win, at all costs, the raging, the criticizing. I'm too soft hearted. I can't hold up to it. I give in. He wins every time.

He's the winner alright. He gets what he wants. He gets to win. He got the things that he wanted, the services from me that he wanted.

In doing so, he lost the trusting and open love I had for him. Don't ruin your marriage to win.

When in the past, we'd argue, I never thought of it in terms of winning or losing, but he always did. Perhaps since my husband is an attorney, he's more tuned into analyzing wins and losses, but it seems to me if anybody loses, both people lose.

[formflier]

 

Another note about winning... .

Very true!  Fighting fire with fire doesn't work... .the tools here work... .they might not get you a win... .that is really not the goal.  The goal is to unsettle the equilibrium... .to take away their ammunition... .to sooth their rough spots... .to drop the temp... so that real work might start.

[123Phoebe]

Another note about winning... .

Very true!  Fighting fire with fire doesn't work... .the tools here work... .they might not get you a win... .that is really not the goal.  The goal is to unsettle the equilibrium... .to take away their ammunition... .to sooth their rough spots... .to drop the temp... so that real work might start.

Hmm, this is interesting... .  I'm not here to debate this claim, I just have a completely different perspective.

Our relationship improved dramatically once I stepped away from focusing on him.  Using the tools, studying the lessons, etc... have been a lot of the real work in healing myself, connecting to myself, recognizing many of my own dysfunctional ways, soothing my own rough spots, regaining my own equilibrium, creating a safer environment for our relationship to flourish.

I cannot change him and once I let that really sink in, so didn't try to, he showed up in ways I never dreamt imaginable.  And that's saying A LOT, because I can have some pretty far-out fantasies

[Notwendy]

Phoebe, I'm doing exactly what you said, focusing on my own recovery, not so much in how to fix "us" or him, since all I can do is work on me.

I am glad things got better for you. In ways, we are better, but it is still fairly early in the changes I have made with myself. I would be happy if good things show up as they did for you. Time will tell.

[123Phoebe]

That's awesome, Notwendy   And thanks.  There are so many aspects to our relationships...   We don't live together, so there's lots of space for us to do our own things, be as weird as we want to be, haha.  For all I know my bf might be a secret paper towel hoarder, too   And like you, I'd question it to myself (or here), but wouldn't try to get him to stop.

Maybe I enable him in some ways, not really sure.  I'm not cryin' the blues about anything, so whatever we're both doing seems to work for us.

Also, knowing myself and the way my brain works, I'd question the things that anybody I was dating was doing.  I've gotten a little better at keeping it to myself, but sometimes things slip out, he'll question my reasoning, and I end up cracking up!  His wit is amazing!  Keeps me on my toes

[Notwendy]

Phoebe, I don't think its such a bad idea to not be living together.

Sharing space, food and other things isn't easy for some people. Although the duplex idea is something I joke about, and H would not consider it, I can see it working in some ways, especially if he likes to have his own stuff.

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe, I don't think its such a bad idea to not be living together.

Sharing space, food and other things isn't easy for some people. Although the duplex idea is something I joke about, and H would not consider it, I can see it working in some ways, especially if he likes to have his own stuff.

The duplex idea isn't a bad one at all.  I've often thought that I would need my own wing in order to live together.  Not because of him, but because of my own need for space.  I work with people all day long and when I get home, I need time to relax, to kinda reset, peace and quiet. 

I think it was formflier who mentioned his wife's FOO and the tv's going all the time.  I couldn't handle that.  My bf likes background noise, too-- or flipping tv channels, changing radio stations... .  He loves music and is up to date on world affairs, sports stats, interesting tidbits of things... .(very much like my mom in that regard)  I'm like my dad, where I'm more comfortable with my own thoughts.  I love music too and can belt out the tunes with the best of 'em (not always in tune... .), but prefer it in smaller doses.  Guess we're all different.

[bruceli]

My H is very territorial about what he believes is "his" stuff. That's fine with me to a certain extent. We should all have our own personal stuff and areas, including the kids. I don't take my kids' toys, clothing, etc, I don't want anyone taking my personal belongings.

However, he behaves more as if we were room mates than a family. I remember in college that it would be a problem if one room mate ate everyone else's food, without contributing to the cost or buying some too. However, we are a family and the food budget includes all of us. I do understand that my H would want to have some of his own favorite foods, I do too, but I found that the best way to manage this is for him to have an extra fridge that is his, and his own shelves on the pantry. If anyone takes something of his, he is sure to notice and to ask " who ate MY ______?".

I don't work that way. With a family, especially older kids, I have no idea who eats how many cookies and it isn't an issue for me as long as they eat healthy meals and they are in good health, normal weight, at the doctors, which they are. So I have no need to monitor the cookies. I can understand if my H is disappointed when someone eats the cookies he likes, but if I notice that the cookies are gone, I just think well, time to buy more.

The more he gets his own space, things, the more the boundary moves to more things. He hasn't raged at me in a while, thanks to the lessons here. However, it's a cycle which means when he gets irritated, he starts poking at me to get a reaction so he can let it out and blame me for it.

It was mentioned on another thread that caretakers are attracted to people with BP that they can rescue and it gives them a sense of "power up". My H is an enigma in that he is both. He has to have power up, which results in him saying things that are condescending and judgemental to me. If I react, then that opens the road for a full blame me for it rage, keeping him in the blameless power up position. To everyone else- at work and his family, he is the "hero" the rescuer, the good guy, but with me, he wants to be taken care of: cooked for, nurtured, loved, but he is not so willing to do this in return as this make him feel as if he is being told what to do like a servant in his mind. He wants to be the one served.

So yesterday, he was irritable and pushing buttons. I didn't bite. He was aggravated that we were out of paper towels. I was not aware that we were, nor was I aware that he had bought some of them. However, he then announced that he had bought some and that someone had taken his paper towels (huh? that was news to me, I thought paper towels were just there and would buy some when I went out. ). He did go to the store and buy some- and they are his towels. Now, I suppose I will need to go get some more and leave his alone.

He also was poking at everything I said. I asked a question about one of our kids, to which he replied "You already asked about kid" yes, I did, but I wanted to know more information. So I just dropped the subject. We drove by a neighbors house and I remembered that the kid had been attending college and so I said, just to make conversation, "He's at college X now" to which the reply was " I told you that two months ago, do you not remember that? ". Well no, I had heard about the college but I had heard it from friends, his family and other people too. I was not making some kind of statement he didn't know, but just chit chatting" I simply replied that I appologize for not remembering"  and let the conversation go as it wasn't worth getting into it or explaining (JADE).

So, great, no escalation because I didn't bite the bait. I really don't care enough about the neighbor kid or the paper towels to make it into anything. He can think what he thinks ( he's going to regardless).

I don't get the room mate thing, except that his FOO is enmeshed and I think he keeps all kinds of barriers to avoid feeling that. However, our home is slowly being divided into his stuff/the family stuff(me and the kids) and the boundary keeps moving. In the grand scheme of things, I don't much care. He can have his own house if he wants to have everything in his space all to himself ( He's not going to move though) as long as we have our family space too. It's just wierd to me.

Not really... .definitely keeps the "intimacy" at bay doesnʻt it?  The arch nemesis of a PD.

[Notwendy]

"Not really... .definitely keeps the "intimacy" at bay doesnʻt it?  The arch nemesis of a PD."

You're right about this. I have found that a certain amount of distance keeps us on even keel. He used to love that I'd try so hard to get close to him. He loved that attention from me. I would just spin my wheels trying and occasionally he'd pay some back to me to keep me trying. If I keep a distance from him, he will also pursue to keep me interested- the push pull, but that would be playing along with it...

I don't want to play. I find middle ground to be a more comfortable place. Is it intimate? No, and it gets really lonely. However, we have kids, work well as a family. We do our separate roles well. For now, it gives me some space to recover when there is less drama. It's different from WOE which kept my focus on him.

And I bought plenty of paper towels.

[formflier]

"

I don't want to play. 

How long do you feel like you have been "stable" in your middle ground area where you are "not playing"?

I suspect I am heading to a situation like that... .just trying to figure out what it will look like.

[Notwendy]

FF, I think intent is everything. For many years I was in middle ground, but it was WOE. It was designed to not trigger him- it was focused on him, not me, so it came from a codependent place. I think any time we do this, it is something destructive to the relationship.

For me now, it isn't to avoid his rages. I've come to a place where I still don't like them, but I don't fear them and they don't trigger me. The "middle ground" is more of a change in me. I am less reactive to him, and neither do I pursue him for conversation that he isn't comfortable doing. When I do talk, I keep the focus on me.

I mentioned that much of what I say that is personal to my H- about him in any way- goes down that rabbit hole of what he hears as criticism. It almost isn't worth saying as he doesn't hear it as I intend it. Middle ground is also a way of respecting his boundaries- too close is too much. I think this has helped diffuse some of the conflict and anger. We don't have those awful times where I JADE and cry. Of course I am using them with the tools on this site.

I am also not doing them to keep the peace or something to him. I am doing it to give me some space to sort out my feelings. When I feel fear, anger, resentment- then there isn't much space for me to feel other things. I have actually felt myself to feel softer and more forgiving and affectionate when I can stop the anger for myself. I think it gives me a place to listen to my own feelings.

It can be a lonely place though too. I love the idea of those heart to heart talks with a spouse, but I can't force them either.