Accusing us of Parental Alienation

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

This is my first post here although I've been reading a lot. DH's ex is undiagnosed as far as we know but it seems as though she fits the description to a tee.

The children are in their early teens and have been asking to live with us more for several years. We had 50/50 custody. We felt powerless as our lawyer said there was nothing we could do - no law against being a crappy parent. It got worse and worse, until it came to a head late last year. The mother told SD14 to leave in a rage late one night (again!) and she came to our home. She never really went back, and SS13 followed later that week. Most of Mom's rage is directed towards SD14, SS is much more gentle and withdraws when she starts, SD engages.

The mother has constantly accused us of PAS, both to us and to the kids. She tells them we have brainwashed them. Tells them they are going to lose her, their half sister and stepfather unless they come back to her. That she can't afford to live without child support and is selling her house and they will never see her. It's endless. She told us to put it in writing that the kids would live with us, and asked us to go easy on her financially. We did this last week and asked for no child support from her - got a letter from her lawyer saying it was premature and where on earth was this coming from? Every day it's a different story but the underlying message is that we have stolen her children, some days she is in waif mode and saying that all she wants is for them to be happy and she will give them up if that's what they want.  A couple of hours later it's another rage filled email. She alternates between veiled suicide threats to the kids and telling them that she is no longer depressed because things are so much better now that they are not with her (she says they caused her depression). She desperately wants them back but everything she does pushes them away. She is texting them incessantly, asking them to come over, that she loves them and will do anything - they have both asked her (nicely and not so nicely) not to text so much, and she takes this as more evidence of our PAS. SS only replies to about 10% of her texts now, because he says he feels she guilts him so much. SD is not respectful a lot of the time (she is a difficult kid and needs boundaries, her Mom isn't capable of this), and her mother blames us. We constantly tell her she needs to be respectful of her mother and she replies that her mother does not respect her. Which is true. We don't allow her to behave rudely in our home but it is a struggle. Can we really be held responsible for how SD behaves in her mother's home?

SD14 will occasionally go to her home and SS has gone a few times in the last 3 months, but they don't want much contact with her (she lives very close). When they do go, they often come back in tears at what she says to them and the pressure they feel from her to go there. She insists that we keep asking them if they want to go to her and seems unable to talk to them at all herself, they don't want to talk to her. So we are in the position of trying to get them to see her, and that feels wrong. We just received another email from her saying that it is highly unusual for children to reject even the cruelest and most abusive of mothers, and that since she is so kind and has done everything for them, it is clearly our doing. We are receiving emails from her husband and other family members saying the same thing to us. I feel really harassed and have done for years. The irony is that she has badmouthed us to the kids for years and we really have tried to shield them from our feelings about her. I have nothing at all to with her, and H tries to keep it business like. It is true that the kids are aware that there isn't a good relationship (mostly because she keeps telling them we are awful people!) but we never say anything bad about her. The kids have been doing much better with us - she asks us how they are doing and when we reply that they are doing well and seem happy, she accuses us of trying to make it seem that they don't need her, do better without her, that they are secretly desperately unhappy but can't tell us that they truly love her etc. The truth is that the kids tell us their feelings about her, positive and negative, and we don't judge them but just listen. She refused to mediate or have the kids see anyone to determine what custody should be, she never consulted us on any of it but has made a series of decisions leading to them being here full time, and told us via email without ever asking if it was ok with us. I could go on and on but I guess my questions are this:

Is it unusual for children of their age to reject their mother and/ or choose to live with one parent? I feel like if she had not made such a fuss when they asked for more time here over the last few years, they would probably have gone to about 70-30 split. But she doesn't work and needed child support, so everything is coloured by her desperation about money. It seems to me that kids in a normal custody situation often do choose to live with one parent in their teen years, but most parents don't cause such drama about it?

Is it possible that it is our fault that they are rejecting her? I know they love us and respect our opinions - has our view of her coloured their opinion even though we don't express it outwardly? She says they have zero respect and love for her and honestly I feel this is 100% caused by her own behaviour - can she really hold us accountable for that or is this projection because she tried and failed to turn them against us?  The kids are very clear that it is their own personal experience of her that is causing this, and they are not completely rejecting of everything to do with her/ her family etc. They say they will go to her, and they have gone to her, it just rarely works out well on the rare occasions they have gone. They ask us to stop defending her.  

Should we should keep asking them if they want to go to see her? It feels like this is wrong but I don't think they will ever see her if we don't push it somewhat.

Is there anyway we can ask for her and her family to stop accusing us of this? Is there any point? It feels as though the only way for her to rationalize this to herself is to blame us, because the truth is too hard to swallow.

The kids love me and their Dad and have a good and happy home here - but she keeps saying that the loss of their mother is going to cause irreparable trauma. Right now it's true they are happier and more settled but I am worried about long term effects. I don't know what to think.

Gosh this is long, but it has been 12 years of hell. Too much has happened to give the full background here. Any insight appreciated... .

[Slate78]

This is my first post here although I've been reading a lot. DH's ex is undiagnosed as far as we know but it seems as though she fits the description to a tee.

The children are in their early teens and have been asking to live with us more for several years. We had 50/50 custody. We felt powerless as our lawyer said there was nothing we could do - no law against being a crappy parent. It got worse and worse, until it came to a head late last year. The mother told SD14 to leave in a rage late one night (again!) and she came to our home. She never really went back, and SS13 followed later that week. Most of Mom's rage is directed towards SD14, SS is much more gentle and withdraws when she starts, SD engages.

The mother has constantly accused us of PAS, both to us and to the kids. She tells them we have brainwashed them. Tells them they are going to lose her, their half sister and stepfather unless they come back to her. That she can't afford to live without child support and is selling her house and they will never see her. It's endless. She told us to put it in writing that the kids would live with us, and asked us to go easy on her financially. We did this last week and asked for no child support from her - got a letter from her lawyer saying it was premature and where on earth was this coming from? Every day it's a different story but the underlying message is that we have stolen her children, some days she is in waif mode and saying that all she wants is for them to be happy and she will give them up if that's what they want.  A couple of hours later it's another rage filled email. She alternates between veiled suicide threats to the kids and telling them that she is no longer depressed because things are so much better now that they are not with her (she says they caused her depression). She desperately wants them back but everything she does pushes them away. She is texting them incessantly, asking them to come over, that she loves them and will do anything - they have both asked her (nicely and not so nicely) not to text so much, and she takes this as more evidence of our PAS. SS only replies to about 10% of her texts now, because he says he feels she guilts him so much. SD is not respectful a lot of the time (she is a difficult kid and needs boundaries, her Mom isn't capable of this), and her mother blames us. We constantly tell her she needs to be respectful of her mother and she replies that her mother does not respect her. Which is true. We don't allow her to behave rudely in our home but it is a struggle. Can we really be held responsible for how SD behaves in her mother's home?

SD14 will occasionally go to her home and SS has gone a few times in the last 3 months, but they don't want much contact with her (she lives very close). When they do go, they often come back in tears at what she says to them and the pressure they feel from her to go there. She insists that we keep asking them if they want to go to her and seems unable to talk to them at all herself, they don't want to talk to her. So we are in the position of trying to get them to see her, and that feels wrong. We just received another email from her saying that it is highly unusual for children to reject even the cruelest and most abusive of mothers, and that since she is so kind and has done everything for them, it is clearly our doing. We are receiving emails from her husband and other family members saying the same thing to us. I feel really harassed and have done for years. The irony is that she has badmouthed us to the kids for years and we really have tried to shield them from our feelings about her. I have nothing at all to with her, and H tries to keep it business like. It is true that the kids are aware that there isn't a good relationship (mostly because she keeps telling them we are awful people!) but we never say anything bad about her. The kids have been doing much better with us - she asks us how they are doing and when we reply that they are doing well and seem happy, she accuses us of trying to make it seem that they don't need her, do better without her, that they are secretly desperately unhappy but can't tell us that they truly love her etc. The truth is that the kids tell us their feelings about her, positive and negative, and we don't judge them but just listen. She refused to mediate or have the kids see anyone to determine what custody should be, she never consulted us on any of it but has made a series of decisions leading to them being here full time, and told us via email without ever asking if it was ok with us. I could go on and on but I guess my questions are this:

Is it unusual for children of their age to reject their mother and/ or choose to live with one parent? I feel like if she had not made such a fuss when they asked for more time here over the last few years, they would probably have gone to about 70-30 split. But she doesn't work and needed child support, so everything is coloured by her desperation about money. It seems to me that kids in a normal custody situation often do choose to live with one parent in their teen years, but most parents don't cause such drama about it?

Is it possible that it is our fault that they are rejecting her? I know they love us and respect our opinions - has our view of her coloured their opinion even though we don't express it outwardly? She says they have zero respect and love for her and honestly I feel this is 100% caused by her own behaviour - can she really hold us accountable for that or is this projection because she tried and failed to turn them against us?  The kids are very clear that it is their own personal experience of her that is causing this, and they are not completely rejecting of everything to do with her/ her family etc. They say they will go to her, and they have gone to her, it just rarely works out well on the rare occasions they have gone. They ask us to stop defending her.  

Should we should keep asking them if they want to go to see her? It feels like this is wrong but I don't think they will ever see her if we don't push it somewhat.

Is there anyway we can ask for her and her family to stop accusing us of this? Is there any point? It feels as though the only way for her to rationalize this to herself is to blame us, because the truth is too hard to swallow.

The kids love me and their Dad and have a good and happy home here - but she keeps saying that the loss of their mother is going to cause irreparable trauma. Right now it's true they are happier and more settled but I am worried about long term effects. I don't know what to think.

Gosh this is long, but it has been 12 years of hell. Too much has happened to give the full background here. Any insight appreciated... .

[livednlearned]

Sure sounds like BPD.  

What's so interesting is that bio mom's alienation tactics are not working. Your SD14 may not be respectful and sometimes rude, but those qualities (she sounds headstrong) may also be helping her individuate and de-enmesh from her mother's loyalty binds. There is an article here about PAS that says:

"... .an alienating parent operates by the adage, "My way or the highway." If the children disobey this directive, especially in expressing positive approval of the absent parent, the consequences can be very serious. It is not uncommon for an alienating parent to reject the child(ren), often telling him or her that they should go live with the target parent. When this does occur one often sees that this threat is not carried out, yet it operates more as a message of constant warning. The child, in effect, is put into a position of being the alienating parent's "agent'' and is continually being put through various loyalty tests. The important issue here is that the alienating patent thus forces the child to choose parents. This, of course, is in direct opposition to a child's emotional well being."

Your SD, followed by SS, effectively called bio mom's bluff.

At the core of all this is bio mom's extreme fear of abandonment.

My ex made similar accusations, that I was engaging in alienation tactics. But then he didn't do any of the things that a healthy parent would do. He had visitation taken away and then restored, but then he wouldn't take it. And then blamed me for blocking access.  

Are you concerned that bio mom will file something with the court to determine PAS? Every court seems to have a different pet theory about parental alienation. It's probably worth the $200 or so for a 30 min consultation with a lawyer to ask what the ground rules are so that you aren't doing something inadvertent to booby trap yourselves. Some courts give teens the choice where to live, others don't. Some courts will do a full court press to determine parental alienation, and then get a whole bunch of third-party professionals involved who may or may not have the expertise to deal with PA, and nothing gets resolved because courts really suck at this aspect of family law. And no one trusts the therapists, and the kids don't get real therapy. Hopefully you can avoid that whole circus.

One strategic thing you could do is find a therapist for the kids and express concern that they don't seem to want to see bio mom anymore, and you want them to get help from a skilled professional to figure out these feelings. All true from what you wrote. Sometimes kids need parental consent from both parents to see a therapist, but there are ways around this.

Every situation is different, but in my case, when S13 expressed something negative about his dad, I validated it. That's probably the most powerful tool there is when dealing with the emotional aspects. Power of Validation is a great book. Your SD might even back down a little bit if she feels heard from you that her feelings about her mom are valid. Her rejection of her mom is probably 100% warranted. Just reading what you've been through made my head spin -- the kids probably are exhausted and fed up. Rightly so. They will probably never fully embrace or trust her. Not a mother who is so erratic and plays mind games like she does. But they might tolerate her more if they feel validated by you that they are having a tough time with her. That's a key distinction -- you are validating how they feel. You are not necessarily agreeing with them that their mother is a bad person. It's worth reading the book to really get a handle on the difference.

Read everything you can about BPD, and about raising emotionally resilient children. Lesson 5 has some good resources (over to the right here -----> And there's some stuff on parental alienation too that might be helpful. Although a lot of it is written for parents who are the targets of parental alienation. You're the target of false allegations of PA.

I also found it very helpful to read up on BPD so I could impart some of that knowledge to S13. Never calling it BPD. Just calling out the behaviors when I noticed them. And validating S13's perception. Amazing to me to discover that many middle school friendships bear similar relationship patterns to BPD   Lots of good material there to work with, coaching S13 without him realizing he was gaining good skills useful for dealing with his dad.

Hang in there. This is tough stuff to deal with. It sounds like you're doing a good job, although I know the raging emails are tedious to say the least. And it must be awful to have a whole family wailing away. Ignore that stuff if you can (in the hopes they don't go all legal on you). Focus on the kids and giving them tools to help deal with this. They sound like they want and need your direction here.

[Rubies]

After watching 3 generations of multiple BPD families, including my own, anyone and everyone who offers safety, shelter and protection to a BPD's children will be accused of Parental Alienation.  In a BPD's head everything they do to their kids is within their rights and is justified.  No matter how physically, psychologically, emotionally brutally damaging they are to their kids, YOU are the Bad Person turning their kids against them.  You may have only opened your door to wet kids on a stormy night, gave them hot soup and a warm bed, then called their dads, YOU are guilty of Parental Alienation and creating a vast conspiracy to turn her kids against her.  BPD parent did no wrong in BPD thinking.

So you choose to put the wellbeing of children first, or you choose to be held hostage by Fear of emotional blackmail, of being accused of parental alienation by a person who is easily documented for alienating their children perfectly fine without any outside help.

Stuff BPDxh and his family did to DD was truly despicably traumatizing to her.  She honored the visitation order and considered it a hardship.  At no time did the BPDf or his family attempt to repair or restore trust relationships with her.  The lying, manipulating, emotional vomiting, refusing her needs, purposely making her feel unsafe just for kicks.  They laid it on thick before she turned 18.  She was sick of them

Let's cut through the BS, child.  Here are the legal facts and the options you have when you become an adult on your 18th birthday.  You get to choose who you visit, when you visit, where and how you visit.  As an adult you don't have to spend time with anyone you don't want to be around.  If you want to live with dad instead of with me, you also have that choice.   These are things to discuss with your therapist, I will support you in your choices.  Always.

She chose NC to take a break and be a teenager for awhile.  Her plan was when she was ready to see her dad again we would arrange a supervised visit between them to meet her need to feel safe and minimize his bs.   His boundary busting, bizarre, obnoxious, invasive and traumatizing behaviors since left wanting nothing to do with her BPDbioDad or his family.   

She has peace in her life.  She likes it.  People respect her personhood and her boundaries.

The BPD thinking was clearly stated in a post NC  message to her.  "I know the only reason you won't see me  is because you are brainwashed and are being held against your will.  This is not who you are."

When she called him on all the horrible things he and his family did to her, typical BPD response, "MY FEARS ARE REAL" as his justification  for the trauma, betrayals, the lying, stealing, cheating, gaming, and deleting her safe numbers from her phone.  No consideration for HER FEARS or NEEDS from the BPD.

Put the needs of children first.  A BPD is going to be BPD no matter what you do.