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maxsterling
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« on: February 08, 2015, 09:36:56 AM »

I'm definitely not in the "black"category anymore.  But not exactly "white" either.  I think more of an "undecided" best fits my status in her mind right now.  She says she got ridiculed in her AA meeting yesterday for "planning a wedding and a divorce at the same time".  I wonder how that made her feel or made her think about things.  Yesterday was mostly okay.  She did the downward spiral about the wedding again.  This time about our wedding coordinator who is now painted black.  I sat with her and discussed options, and afterwards she felt better, and said this wedding stuff is not as much stress as long as I sit with her and work on it with her.  Not that we did much, she mainly looked to find alternatives for the coordinator, and I sent an email to guests letting them know alternative hotels in the area.

By the end of the day, she was on the sofa watching a movie with me, and eventually wanted to lay on me while watching.  She invited me to sleep in the bed with her.  Part of me still wanted to sleep on the sofa Smiling (click to insert in post)  All in all, I didn't feel like the "enemy in the house" yesterday.

So to recap the events of the last week:

- she'd been in a negative mood for awhile, I was worn out.

- negative mood turned into outright abuse last Tuesday, I enforce boundary to not be present for abuse.

- My enforcing boundary on Tuesday led to violence, which I called the police on.

- I spent tuesday night in hotel room for my safety.

- She's very mad over me calling police, wants me to apologize, wants divorce, etc.

- she still wants to go thru with wedding, "for show".

- MC on Friday was the same story, abuse, name calling, etc.

I have held my ground and not apologized for calling police.  She didn't bring it up yesterday.  I'm wondering if the events of the AA meeting made her re-think things.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2015, 10:37:32 AM »

Max - the question I have is not what is she thinking but what are you thinking?

A woman you're engaged to is admittedly planning a wedding while talking about divorce. You've called the police about her behavior.

So you're not painted black today, but that can change.

Do you think marriage is going to make any of this better?
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sweetheart
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« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2015, 11:14:32 AM »

I'm really glad for you both that things are calmer and you have been able to tentatively return to usual functioning.

I was thinking about you both and I am not surprised your wife is dysregulating at the moment. There are a lot of things going on that have been impacting on you both for a while now.

Max as the wedding preparations continue can you accept that your wife will probably continue to struggle and probably act out emotionally and behaviourally some more?

For me accepting that this pattern of behaviour for a pwBPD will continue during times of stress for them helps me cope better emotionally and also helps me be more constant and present in my responses to my SO. This I believe can also help hold them emotionally at a time that they cannot hold themselves.

I hope you didn't sleep on the sofa, it is positive that your wife is able to reach out to you in this way.
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maxsterling
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« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2015, 11:39:31 AM »

Wendy - no marriage will not make any of this better.   Legally, we are already married, and that changed nothing.  So what am I thinking?  I don't know.  But as my IC and MC suggested, to consider not making any firm decisions now, and should take time to think.  

My thinking now is just that - take a deep breath first.  We are already legally married, so having a ceremony at this point means little (way too far along on the process to easily cancel).  I am hopeful this morning, because she told me once again that she loves me.  Not that those words fix anything, but it does show me that I can enforce boundaries, she can get really mad, and a few days later burn out without me having to meet her more than halfway.  I see that as progress.  And as I posted previously, she is more self aware, is working much harder on herself than the previous year or so, does have an appointment with a P soon, and is looking for a new T.  I think the P and the T will make a difference here.  

Summary:  My thoughts are get some head space first to make wise decisions.    
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maxsterling
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« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2015, 11:44:05 AM »

Max as the wedding preparations continue can you accept that your wife will probably continue to struggle and probably act out emotionally and behaviourally some more?

For me accepting that this pattern of behaviour for a pwBPD will continue during times of stress for them helps me cope better emotionally and also helps me be more constant and present in my responses to my SO. This I believe can also help hold them emotionally at a time that they cannot hold themselves.

I hope you didn't sleep on the sofa, it is positive that your wife is able to reach out to you in this way.

Yes.  I accept this is the cycle.  I expect a "stressed out" outburst every few days for the foreseeable future.  That's where in a previous post I was discussing differences between the stressed out outbursts and the full on rages.   

No, I didn't sleep on the sofa.  That's one of those instances where I have to acknowledge that she is reaching out.  If I refused, I am sure she would have felt "punished". 
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« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2015, 12:02:03 PM »

 

Max,

This is good sign.  Can you let us in more on what she said... what you said... about the "ridicule" she got at AA. 

I think at some point a question of "so... what are you going to do with this... "... or something along those lines is appropriate.


Yes... .the fact that the ceremony is truly ceremonial does make it easier to contemplate... .since it legally changes nothing.

Is it possible to hold off on major decisions... changes... .until after P appointment.  Or until after several P appointments. 

Welcome back to the world of "middle earlth" (are you a fan?)   Smiling (click to insert in post)... .not quite black... not quite white. 

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Notwendy
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« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2015, 03:18:28 PM »

I didn't realize that the marriage was already legal, Max. Thanks for clarifying that.

Planning an event is stressful for anyone, so it is understandable that your wife finds it stressful.

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maxsterling
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« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2015, 03:52:09 PM »

I didn't realize that the marriage was already legal, Max. Thanks for clarifying that.

Planning an event is stressful for anyone, so it is understandable that your wife finds it stressful.

Well, I understand that, and I validate that.  But she wants to go to the extreme of stress here, and obsess over decisions she has already made.  We've gone over the decisions about the cake once, then about 2.45x10^23 times after that.  It's a cake.  And after the umpteenth time going over the decisions again, of course I start to sigh and show frustration, which is quite invalidating to her.  She's loved our officiant/coordinator one day, hated her the next.  This goes back and forth.  Today, she wants a new officiant, and wants to get our money back.  She has a point this time in that the officiant has serious heath concerns and we need to be looking for alternate plans.  But this is par for the course here - yes this is stressful.  But - this is a small wedding, we've already made most of the decisions, and it's just a matter of putting it together.   Yet, rather than progress, it seems like she wants to sit and spin wheels over decisions that were already made.  The process has really taught me a few things: 1) she is not capable of handling any kind of stress on her own in a healthy way.  It doesn't matter how small the task - could be as simple as deciding what to eat.  2) I really don't think she is capable of holding a job or having stable friendships.  Her blowup with me this week was part of the same cycle she has with nearly everyone.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2015, 06:08:07 PM »

IMHO, it's part of the larger anxiety.

My mom is very good at entertaining, but she too will stress over every detail- asking us a million time if something tastes OK, or looks OK. Part of this is when she thinks other people may be judging her.

Once she sent me to the store and I came back with the wrong soup by accident. This kind of thing would really upset her.

I think it just has to go the way she's going to do it...
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maxsterling
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« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2015, 06:53:47 PM »

IMHO, it's part of the larger anxiety.

My mom is very good at entertaining, but she too will stress over every detail- asking us a million time if something tastes OK, or looks OK. Part of this is when she thinks other people may be judging her.

Once she sent me to the store and I came back with the wrong soup by accident. This kind of thing would really upset her.

I think it just has to go the way she's going to do it...

Yes, this is a deeply-rooted problem that she recognizes.   And it's probably something that is mostly unsolvable.  What I think is solvable is for her to recognize the anxiety and derail it so that it does not spin into the obsessive cycle.  That's what happened the other day (as I see it).  She spun herself out of control all day long, and I came home after the point of no return.  MC tried to get her to see that, too, that she was already in pretty bad shape and aggressive towards me by the time I came home. 
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maxsterling
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2015, 11:44:33 AM »

more here -

Things are mostly back to the way they were two weeks ago, with both me and her.  that means her having daily anxiety issues but no major explosions, me managing myself okay with still an uneasy underlying feeling.  Some things that went on over the weekend:

1)  Went to pet rescue with the idea of replacing deceased pet.  Wife thought people there were rude to her and implied that she killed her pet.  Yikes.  Anyway,  this caused stress, somehow I got blamed for going along with the idea of adopting two new pets, but she did later say that it was not my fault and she should have been more clear with her feelings.

2)  Made huge, successful food shopping trip.  Plenty of items she can eat now that she feels comfortable with so that it takes stress away from her deciding what she needs to eat. 

3)  She asked me how to clean up broken glass in kitchen that went under the cabinets.  She then remarked, "just so you know, I put the cats in the bedroom before breaking the glasses."   

4)  She made a comment about how the one cat is scared of her now.

5)  She had her meltdown last night regarding wedding stress and being hungry.  Blamed me for stuff, but wasn't quite as ugly with it.  had another meltdown this morning regarding wedding stress.  Seems to have worked through it now.

6)  I was able to take a very long, exhausting, and rewarding bike ride yesterday afternoon.

My assessment is this:  She wakes up on the "wrong side of the bed" every morning.  Tons of anxiety.  She's okay once she gets out of the house and does something, and takes a Xanax.  Xanax wears off late afternoon, she has second meltdown, and not fine again until she eats and takes her daily second Xanax.  Conclusion:  The daily meltdowns may be related to the up and downs of the Xanax.  Probably not a good idea for her to stop taking it at this point, but it does help me if I recognize that her more severe moods may be related to the Xanax cycle.  Important to get her into the P.  I have heard from multiple sources the P she is going to see is one of the best in the city when it comes to Rx knowledge.  I think her appointment is about 3 weeks out.
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maxsterling
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« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2015, 12:34:08 PM »

Things are still trending toward baseline here.  A few things of note here:

1)  MC was yesterday.  Much better, but she still wanted to talk about getting a "mental illness advocate lawyer" to protect herself in case I called police on her again.

2)  MC seemed to put emphasis on helping W find a new T and a new P, and wanted to be involved in the process. 

3)  W mentioned how she is going to meet with her AA sponsor to do a "4th step" today in relation to me.  She then went on about how I don't have an alanon sponsor and insisted I get one and do a "4th step" in relation to her.  I don't object to the idea, but part of her insistence is projection, and I have a problem with that.  I've been trying to find a sponsor, but haven't found any good "fit".  Seems like the return vibe I get when I talk to other men in the program is that I am dealing with a mentally ill woman and should get divorced/break up.  I just haven't found another man in that program yet who I can really relate to.

4)  W claims I make everything about her.  That claim feels quite invalidating to me, because I want more than anything to NOT have to deal with her issues.  She makes it sound like I want to deal with her issues.  From my perspective, I want nothing more than to take care of myself, I just feel like I am constantly bombarded with what she has going on.  Again, I feel that this is projection. 
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Notwendy
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« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2015, 01:27:22 PM »

Max- different 12 step programs all use the same steps but with different perspectives. I have done the steps through codependency groups as well as ACOA. While my mother abused alcohol, this was just one manifestation of a larger problem. Quitting drinking would have been great, however, just quitting would not have solved her issues- or the effect she had on her family.

Many people who have done AA, then feel they need to do more. AA is a great program, and an important first step, but after that, many of those who have attended AA are also in codependency groups and/or ACOA to deal with other issues. Staying clean of an addicting substance is good, but emotional sobriety is the next goal.

At first, it didn't make sense to me to be sitting in the same group as an alcoholic as it is not my problem. Seeing my mom's behavior when she was drinking was enough to stop me from ever drinking that much. However, I soon realized that all addictive behavior is related and co-dependency is addictive behavior.

So, the message to you is that I agree that the steps and a sponsor could be very beneficial to you, but it doesn't have to be through that one alanon group if you don't feel you can relate to them. Most areas have different groups, so one that deals with codependency, or adult children ( applies to adult children of dysfunction) might relate to you better. Also even groups with the same focus can be different from each other, so another alanon group might fit better. Attending different groups might lead you to one that does seem to fit.

Also, none seemed to fit me that well at first. It took me getting into the steps to see the value of them. So wherever you are, starting with a sponsor can lead to understanding them better. People sometimes change sponsors or do the steps again with different ones to get different perspectives too.
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GaGrl
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« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2015, 02:28:48 PM »

Is spending time in a mutual Fourth Step exercise really going to help either of you right now?
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Notwendy
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« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2015, 02:37:12 PM »

The steps can't be mutual. They are done individually with a sponsor.

The one benefit I can think of is that once one has gone through the steps, one understands the benefits and the program. My H has not done any of the steps/group that I have, and while it isn't my business for him to decide to do it or not, my T can refer to them with me and I will understand what she means while he doesn't. It would be beneficial if both of us  mutually understood her reference in T.

The fourth step involves taking a personal inventory of our own issues. It is helpful when each person is willing to look at their own inventory instead of taking someone else's inventory. I can see where couples can mutually benefit from this idea, however, the fourth step must be done only as an individual.
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« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2015, 05:21:35 PM »

Max, I have a question about how you respond when your wife blames you for things that clearly are not your fault and you have no control over. 

For example, she blames you because she's hungry but can't decide herself what to eat... .

Or, she blames you because she perceives someone at the pet store is rude to her... .

My daughter (BPD) has done this in the past--blamed me for situations I had nothing to do with.  My husband (not BPD, just a miserable jerk) doesn't do this.  He just won't accept there's anything wrong with his behavior, can't/won't remember what I am even talking about, has ZERO insight, and NEVER apologizes.  At least your wife will apologize and accept at times her behavior is unacceptable.

I'm just curious as to what you actually say to her when she tries to put the blame on you when it's so obviously not your blame to bear. 
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maxsterling
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« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2015, 05:42:28 PM »

I'm just curious as to what you actually say to her when she tries to put the blame on you when it's so obviously not your blame to bear. 

Considering she is pretty self aware and will eventual come back with an apology or recognition that she was wrong, I usually just listen to her vent.  If sense it could get out of hand, I just try to validate, end the conversation (boundary). 
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maxsterling
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2015, 10:56:22 AM »

Last night she said she would not apologize for her behavior from last week.  She said that she has apologized for that kind of thing in the past many times, and that apologizing again would do no good.  I agree.  I don't need her to say "I'm sorry", I just need her to acknowledge last week was bad and something needs to change.

And she said exactly that.  That she doesn't want to live like that, that she needs to change.  She said she had a long talk with her AA sponsor, and she realized she kept going back to how her mom treated her dad.  She said that her behavior is learned, and needs to stop, and she needs to treat me like a loving and trusting and supportive wife.  She said that she needs to focus on herself, find a therapist, and less on finding a job.  She said she needs to do better at accepting who I am, and if she has opinions about what I should be doing, to let those go and let me live my own way.  She also said that she needs to end her obsession with having a baby, acknowledging that she wants a child for the wrong reasons of wanting unconditional love from someone that will never leave her.  She said if we have a child, it should be for other reasons, and if we do or don't is God's will.

So, once again, back to this extreme self-awareness.  I did my best to validate and encourage, and empathize.  But once again, words and self-awareness are one step.  Actions and change are the next step.  An hour later she was asking me if we should by some kind of "fertility computer" - implying that it would help us with birth control - but I know her real motivations are the opposite.   And then again this morning on my case for not saying the right thing to a florist I visited yesterday.



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« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2015, 01:18:00 PM »

 Max,

The self awareness that she sometimes displays is amazing... .

I hope at some point this can be used to move things in the right direction.

Any updates on getting to a P?
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