another co parent counseling meeting today

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I got there on time and ex was 15 minutes late. We talked about the weather and then the counselor wanted to start without ex. I explained what has been going on with our S11 that I wanted to talk about today so that is where I started. S11 has eczema and had a flare up the last weekend at his moms. I explained that we went to a dermatologist in December and he explained it as both a genetic and an environmental issue. S11 has had various meds for the last 7 years and none of them has "cured" his breakouts. I understand the meds will not cure it but it is the briefest way to explain. In Dec the dermatologist gave a new prescription that was much stronger than anything before. He explained that it should clear everything up in eight days. He said that this med should not be used on a regular basis because of its' strength. It worked better than anything else that has been used in the last six years so this was a positive. His skin cleared up completely. I explained, and have been to ex for the last 6 years, that I thought the chlorine in the water was aggravating his condition. The dermatologist agreed. Six years ago I found all kinds of info on chlorine and skin conditions and asthma like conditions in many people. I shared all the info with ex at the time. Ex ignored it but in Dec I thought I would give it another try since the dermatologist expressed his belief that I might be on to something. He read several papers on exactly what I had discovered and said it has worked for several of his patients. I installed a dechlorinator in my place 6 years ago and it seemed to show promise. S11's skin would clear up, without meds, when he was with me for extended periods. I pointed this all out when I found out any new info.

After the doc appointment in Dec I sent an email to ex asking if she was going to follow the docs recommendation about the dechlorinator. I told her which one I had and the several I tried before that did not work as well as this one. She replied that she was going to put one in. That was over six weeks ago and she hasn't done a thing. I explained my frustration in trying to "co parent" with ex. Ex walked in at this time.

The counselor briefly went over what we were discussing. Ex said she installed one this last Friday. She went on saying I am always trying to micromanage her from a distance and that she has learned to make boundaries and refused to listen to my trying to control her. Ex also acknowledged what the doc said. I had enough and simply said , "Why did it take you six years to finally do something to help S11 out ?" She tried explaining things by making up lies about emails she sent to me. I point blank asked her to print them out for the next meeting. The counselor intervened and said that was not needed since people often interpret events differently. I said I understood that but she is outright lying or delusional because what she claimed never happened. I was not going to let this go and stuck with my position. During this entire time I kept my composure and refused to waver. I repeated myself asking why it took six years. Ex then tried to change the topic. I will finish later.

[david]

I got there on time and ex was 15 minutes late. We talked about the weather and then the counselor wanted to start without ex. I explained what has been going on with our S11 that I wanted to talk about today so that is where I started. S11 has eczema and had a flare up the last weekend at his moms. I explained that we went to a dermatologist in December and he explained it as both a genetic and an environmental issue. S11 has had various meds for the last 7 years and none of them has "cured" his breakouts. I understand the meds will not cure it but it is the briefest way to explain. In Dec the dermatologist gave a new prescription that was much stronger than anything before. He explained that it should clear everything up in eight days. He said that this med should not be used on a regular basis because of its' strength. It worked better than anything else that has been used in the last six years so this was a positive. His skin cleared up completely. I explained, and have been to ex for the last 6 years, that I thought the chlorine in the water was aggravating his condition. The dermatologist agreed. Six years ago I found all kinds of info on chlorine and skin conditions and asthma like conditions in many people. I shared all the info with ex at the time. Ex ignored it but in Dec I thought I would give it another try since the dermatologist expressed his belief that I might be on to something. He read several papers on exactly what I had discovered and said it has worked for several of his patients. I installed a dechlorinator in my place 6 years ago and it seemed to show promise. S11's skin would clear up, without meds, when he was with me for extended periods. I pointed this all out when I found out any new info.

After the doc appointment in Dec I sent an email to ex asking if she was going to follow the docs recommendation about the dechlorinator. I told her which one I had and the several I tried before that did not work as well as this one. She replied that she was going to put one in. That was over six weeks ago and she hasn't done a thing. I explained my frustration in trying to "co parent" with ex. Ex walked in at this time.

The counselor briefly went over what we were discussing. Ex said she installed one this last Friday. She went on saying I am always trying to micromanage her from a distance and that she has learned to make boundaries and refused to listen to my trying to control her. Ex also acknowledged what the doc said. I had enough and simply said , "Why did it take you six years to finally do something to help S11 out ?" She tried explaining things by making up lies about emails she sent to me. I point blank asked her to print them out for the next meeting. The counselor intervened and said that was not needed since people often interpret events differently. I said I understood that but she is outright lying or delusional because what she claimed never happened. I was not going to let this go and stuck with my position. During this entire time I kept my composure and refused to waver. I repeated myself asking why it took six years. Ex then tried to change the topic. I will finish later.

[ennie]

I am a stepmom married to DH, whose ex has BPD. We went through a difficult co-parenting counseling experience, and I feel your pain! Do you like the counselor?  How long have you been doing the counseling?

The custody evaluator in DH's custody case recommended a special sort of co-parenting counseling for DH, BPDmom, and I to all attend. It was pretty much a disaster.  The counselor was not capable of dealing with a person with BPD, and insisted on not reading any of the custody evaluator's materials, not looking at any pieces of paper or hearing from any "collateral" sources.  As a result, the first 4 months, the counselor just believed BPD mom's really far out lies and distortions.  It is so challenging to explain that something is completely false, because this seems like an extreme position.  I was finally the one to insist on going through the calendar in the session when BPD mom stated she had half as much time this particular month than dad did due to where breaks and so forth fell... .the opposite was true.  BPD mom often goes on the attack when she is at fault, arguing that the other person is doing what she in fact is doing... .so if she has been abusing the kids, she accuses us of abuse.  The result is that we are on the defensive with unknowing third parties, but have no ability to say, "I am sorry" or "this part is true." 

Finally, for this once incident, I got out my calendar as I am the only parent who keeps meticulous track of the parenting schedule.   I peacefully showed BPD mom the times and dates, asked her if this seemed true to her.  She said yes.  I then added up the dates for 2 months, and it turned out dad had the kids 2 weeks and she had them 6 weeks during that time, totally disproportionate in the opposite direction.  The counselor asked, "so, it seems like you agree with Ennie?", at which point BPD mom yelled, "I totally disagree!  She is always ruining everything! I HATE YOU!  I hate you too! (that one to the therapist)." 

At this point, the T asked for some alone time with BPDmom.  I had already announced that this would be my last session, so I did not go back.  Up until that point, the counselor would just argue that DH and I were not listening to BPD mom, and would not look at the emails that could demonstrate that DH communicates early and often, mom ignores, mom responds last minute in a nonsensical way, issue is never resolved.  The hard thing was that the T really believed mom and had me pigeonholed as a territorial stepmom, which I am not. I have never felt so radically misunderstood in my life.  I was really looking forward to come facilitated communication with BPD mom, partly so that I could have help with communicating that I really am okay with her as is, and do not WANT to be a mom. 

After that day, I did not attend, but things changed for DH.  The counselor finally stopped believing her distortions, but at that point, BPD mom said she hated the woman and would not go back either.  So it did not really work. 

In retrospect, I had a sense of what I thought would actually have helped.  I think someone who really understands BPD and who could have taken in that DH and I were compassionate could have helped BPD mom to get that she had a team. BPD mom would have been open to that, I think, though would not have remember it the next day.  But for that person to validate DH and I for trying not to be judgmental, for caring for BPD mom while still setting boundaries, that would have really been amazing for us at that time. 

Instead, she could not believe that we could maintain some open heartedness when BPD mom had tried to and threatened to harm us, when she had made false accusations, etc. The T just said, "Either you are lying about what has been done, or you are lying about still caring about her, because both could not be true."  So invalidating. 

At any rate, I really hope you have a capable counsel; either way, it will not take long before it becomes clear that BPD ex is not being truthful.  If just takes some time. 

Good luck! And take care of yourself.  To have a third party reinforce the dishonest, blaming perspective of a person with BPD was too much for me, but then I did not have to be there, and I did not marry her, so I just stopped attending.  But it really was one of the hardest parts of the past 8 years of being with DH, so be sure you are getting other support if it starts to go south.

[david]

To continue... .I was adamant that what I was saying was not a distortion and was more than willing to let ex show what she was saying was true. I don't think the counselor wanted to go any further and decided that was enough with that topic since ex did finally get a dechlorinator. He did add that if the one ex got didn't work for some reason she could email me to ask me which one I have. I pointed out that I already did that but had no problem giving her that info again if she asked for it.

Next we discussed S16. Two or three weeks ago I noticed he needed a new school bag. I told him on my weekend that we were going to buy a new one. He said that his mom already said she was going to get him one. I said okay and let it go. Well, this last week he told me that mom now refused to but him one. Apparently he picked one out online that she did not like. I asked him to show me what he picked out. The backpack was a "mil tec molle assault rucksack." Translation, it is the newest military specks for a backpack. He found one online that was extremely cheap in price and the reviews were all extremely positive. I sent an email a few days ago asking if she was still going top purchase the backpack for him. She insisted, at the meeting, that she would not buy that particular backpack since she thought it inappropriate since it had the word assault in it and it would not be allowed in school. I actually had printed out the site and the reviews. I only printed the most recent reviews. That totaled around 20 reviews. Not one person used it as a military bag but as a hiking, camping, schoolbag, etc. The quality exceeded backpacks at twice the price. IT had a compartment for a water bag and the entire bag was water resistant. I pointed all that out and ex indicated that I was alienating the boys from her because I was undermining her authority. I pointed out that I didn't purchase a bag for him because I didn't want to undermine her authority at her residence. I told S16 to find more agreeable backpacks and pick several and let mom decide. I then decided to take it a step further. I calmly stated that the reason she feels both boys are alienated is because she has doesn't have the ability to listen and discuss things with either boy. I decided years ago that I would listen and validate both of them. They always come to me and we discuss things. We have a back and forth. I let ex know that I did talk to S16 the other day about the school bag and he explained his reasoning. He pointed out the price and the quality and the reviews. All reasonable answers. I then told ex that if she simply talked to S16 and listened to his reasons she might actually realize he was making sense. She could still say no because of the word assault but if you looked at the photo which I had you would not be able to tell it was inappropriate. Ex then turned around and said that she would never buy him such a bag and that if I wanted to she would be fine with that ? I asked her to explain how that made any sense. If she was so strongly against purchasing it for him why would she be fine with me buying it for him ? If I did that then I would be undermining her authority and I didn't think that was the right thing to do. She had no reply except to say that she had boundaries and that I was not going to micromanage her anymore. Time ran out so we had to end it there.

I did get her to say she was going to purchase a bag for him this weekend. If she doesn't than I will just purchase the one he wants since it does make sense to do so and she told me it was okay for me to do just that.

I think the counselor gets ex to some degree but is still trying to get us to communicate better. It is very frustrating but I have decided to speak my mind and no longer just sit there and be quiet. I did that at the last meeting too and ex has never seen me stay so on task and focused. When we were married I usually went along with things to avoid confrontation. That obviously didn't work and this does seem to be getting some results. She is showing her true colors and the counselor is seeing it. This is court ordered so I have to attend.

We have only been to 5 meetings now and we have to continue until our court date in June or until we both agree we don't need to go anymore. The counselor is handling ex to some degree but ex gets triggered very easily whenever I say something that doesn't fit her delusion. The funny thing is she seems to enjoy going still. I am not sure what to make of that yet but it seems like she is getting engagement from me that she hasn't had in several years and that is what she is getting out of it.

[NorthernGirl]

Hey David. Good for you for sticking it out through a session where your wife is trying to twist things around! I know it's hard, especially when dealing with someone who can easily manipulate things without batting an eye. DH's ex is a master at telling a story that makes her look as though she is a great mom. I believe telling these stories makes her feel better, and am convinced she doesn't even think of it as lying.

DH has had to deal with professionals (counselors, mediators, arbitrators) with his ex in the room or on the phone. He would get frustrated, or as you indicated, or just sit and stay quiet because he knew he would come off sounding defensive. But later he would be frustrated with where things ended up because he didn't speak up.

We worked on some ideas that have helped him:

* he writes a note to himself of what he wants to accomplish at the counselling/mediation session. When he gets frustrated or his ex takes him off track, he can look at the note and focus on the goal. Sometimes that means he'll give up something small -- which she sees as a victory -- to get at the bigger goal.

* he writes down bullet points of what he wants to cover. These help remind him of what he wants to share when she twists something around or tries to turn the conversation to a different topic.

* he brings copies of documents with him (sounds like you do the same). He often brings copies of her emails related to the topic being discussed. Her emails are often scathing, demanding and conflicting -- so they speak volumes by themselves. If he can calmly read them out, they start to tell the story. The first time he did this, his ex was shocked. She said something and he then he'd read one of her emails that conflicted with what she just said. She would say she didn't remember or try to come up with some reason for the discrepancy, and he would just sit and wait her out.

* in these types of sessions he talks to the professional, not to his ex. It sounds like you might be doing the same, and I think this really works. DH says this one is hard because his ex wants desperately to have the interaction (like you said, she likely comes to the sessions to engage DH who rarely interacts with her now) so she will look to push some of his buttons. But he has learned that if he can keep talking with the professional, that person is more likely to listen and hear him out.

* if the professional doesn't set any rules he will ask how the session will work. If they have set rules (e.g. no interrupting), he will ask for them to be restated at the beginning of the session, and then he will remind the professional to apply the rules if they forget.

DH has had to deal with so many professionals who have no idea of his ex's mental illness and often start off believing her story. He says he often feels physically sick knowing he has to go into a room with her. But he has joint guardianship with her of their youngest son, so some of these meetings could go on for years.

And you already know this but don't forget to focus on the big picture and choose your battles -- in a few years your son won't remember the backpack or he can buy his own. But he will remember how you treated him. So keep praising him for the good things he's doing (nice research work!) and listen to him if it doesn't turn out as he would have liked (that sucks that she's not getting you the backpack). Helping him learn to move on from a disappointment is a great lesson and will no doubt come in handy down the road.

[david]

The first few meetings I was exclusively talking to the counselor. I thought that might not be the best course of action since we are supposed to be co parenting so I started looking and talking directly to ex. So far, when I do this, ex is unable to look at me or even have a conversation. She talks to the counselor instead. I haven't spoken to her outside of these meetings in over four years so it is new to her and me. She doesn't trigger me in any way and I feel very calm during the meetings. I notice that ex uses the same "tricks" she used to use that would get me off balance. They don't work anymore and that does seem to be the difference for me. She is stuck.

[scraps66]

These co-parent sessions are so difficult knowing that the intent is right, but the results are so speculative based on involving a BP that makes it near impossible to achieve positive results.  It takes an inordinate amount of discussion with a BP to resolve the simplest of issues.

I got so fed up two sessions ago that the Dr. told me I had to come back alone, but bring my girlfriend.  I don't know if he's leaning on me more because he knows I'm sane, or whether I truly am more out of line than ex, or if he knows he can't get anywhere with my ex. 

there is no factoring in the bad history, the continued alienating behaviors.  Not to mention, she still hasn't abided by the very things we've agreed on during the co-parent counseling.  One of the simple things had been scheduling activities without discussing with me first. She'll discuss activities with the kids, and then TELL ME, "S10 says he wants to wrestle and play the viola," and then it's up to me to agree.  The most recent occasion was during the beginning of this co-parent counseling, were she made me out to be the bad guy by severely distorting reality. This is what set me off and granted me my own session. 

I've been thinking of ways to get out of it because this is just foolhardy at getting results.  I really do want to bring up my concern with ex's mental state of mind based on things with our S10 where she refuses to get him counseling for continued bad behavior. 

If I add up all the time, money, effort and aggravation out of coparent counseling, it would be an upsidedown investment strictly based on the lack of compliance of the BP and the BP-antics.

[david]

I don't expect much out of these sessions because of ex's refusal to have a discussion. Ex has to always win and also look like she is perfect at least in her mind. That is the frustrating part. When I actually try to discuss something she shuts down to that and goes to her usual "I am abusive" routine. This counselor has limited that behavior by intervening as soon as she tries to go into that. The problem is it takes forever to accomplish anything substantial. We have been to 5 meetings and three things have been "agreed" to. Ex hasn't brought anything up that concerns her except child support. She brought that up at the end of this last meeting.

[livednlearned]

I've been reading about really skilled mediators and how they deal with difficult people.

They are able to validate the feelings, and reframe the issue in positive ways for both parties, but especially for the high-conflict person -- some of this is validation, which helps prevent the stubborn behaviors from becoming too entrenched  (these behaviors build when the person feels he/she hasn't been heard). It takes a lot of skill to validate the feelings of the high-conflict personality and reframe her issue in positive ways. Even if we had the skills to do this, our BPDx's would likely not respond well because of the role we play in their psyches, having been flipped from idealization to devaluation. But a skilled outsider can do this. A mediator is an authority figure who can function like a protective parent. My ex used to treat anyone in a position of authority this way, very deferential. It really irritated me to see the judge coddle him like he did, but now I understand what he was doing. He was validating ex's feelings, showing that he understood how tough it was. And then he ruled against him, and would slap my hands. So baffling. I think he was doing me an incredible favor. He made it seem like N/BPDx won, even though he didn't. That really brought the conflict down. It's a skill.

If your co-parent is a skilled mediator, watch to see if he is doing this. If he is, you may be able to sit back and let him do most of the work. It sounds like you are not getting too entangled, but I wonder about some of the things that come up -- like asking your ex why it took 6 years to get a dechlorinator. That's a rhetorical question meant to make a point. You might not need to make a point if the counselor sees exactly what's going on. In fact, making a point like that might be making it harder for your counselor to do what he's trying to do.

Your ex needs to feel like she's winning. He knows that -- and he may be willing to create that feeling as long as it produces cooperation. Which is how you win.

You don't want to go through a year of this and not recognize what tactics the counselor is using. If he's good, get on his page. That's how you'll get a glowing report if he's expected to give one.

[david]

I am have been paying attention to the counselor and since I changed my way of talking to ex I haven't noticed him trying to stop or redirect me.

I had an encounter with ex a short time after she left back in 2007. She called and left a voicemail saying she was going to be late dropping the boys off. My phone was upstairs and I was doing something in the basement. I went upstairs to hear the message after I was done. That was about 10 minutes. I called ex and she answered on the first ring. That made me think she was playing games. She started talking and I cut her off. I said in a very stern voice that someone would use on a child, " Now listen here young lady, you are to have those boys back by 8 pm and you better do that or you will be in big trouble. Do you hear me ?" She hung the phone up without saying anything. The boys walked into the house at 7:58. I was seeing a T at the time and I talked to her about it because I felt guilty for talking/treating her that way. The T pointed out that what I did worked and maybe that is what my then wife needed. I never did anything like that again because it didn't sit right with me. It is kind of what I am doing now and it seems to be changing the dynamics between ex and I. I don't really understand the reason but it is changing things in a postive way for our boys since I am getting results that are helpful for them.

[ennie]

I am have been paying attention to the counselor and since I changed my way of talking to ex I haven't noticed him trying to stop or redirect me.

I had an encounter with ex a short time after she left back in 2007. She called and left a voicemail saying she was going to be late dropping the boys off. My phone was upstairs and I was doing something in the basement. I went upstairs to hear the message after I was done. That was about 10 minutes. I called ex and she answered on the first ring. That made me think she was playing games. She started talking and I cut her off. I said in a very stern voice that someone would use on a child, " Now listen here young lady, you are to have those boys back by 8 pm and you better do that or you will be in big trouble. Do you hear me ?" She hung the phone up without saying anything. The boys walked into the house at 7:58. I was seeing a T at the time and I talked to her about it because I felt guilty for talking/treating her that way. The T pointed out that what I did worked and maybe that is what my then wife needed. I never did anything like that again because it didn't sit right with me. It is kind of what I am doing now and it seems to be changing the dynamics between ex and I. I don't really understand the reason but it is changing things in a postive way for our boys since I am getting results that are helpful for them.

I am not in a direct relationship with a BPD person as a stepmom, though had more contact with the BPD mom of my SDs when I was first with DH, 8 years ago.  That said, I have wrestled with this one a lot.  I think the reason the BPD mom of my SDs response well to very authoritarian communication is because that is how people communicated with her as a child, and because she is terribly indecisive and has poor executive function, so it works better to tell her what is happening that to ask or put her in a place of power.

That said, I do not like to reinforce the abuse she suffered in her past.  And because I am particularly comfortable setting clear boundaries, I can do so in a loving way and still be effective.  The bottom line for me is that yes, clear boundaries are important, but for me it feels better to couple boundaries with loving, patient communication.  Unless I feel physically at risk of one of the kids' well being is threatened, I do not resort to using that tone--and, I would try a kind tone with clear boundaries first, and this almost always is effective.  That is important to me because of how it feels to ME, and what is important to me.  I do not want her fearful, blaming, power-playing world view to become mine, and there was a time when it was. 

Here is an example of the difference between the two.  The scene:  BPD mom calls me and is blaming DH for something, then starts saying insulting things to me, "The kids hate you, everyone in town hates you, no one tells you because they are afraid of you, DH just likes you because you are not a mom and will dump you soon, he always does" and so forth. This used to happen. 

Using authority in the manner to which she is accustomed: "You may not call me.  You are not allowed to speak that way to me, and if you do, I will make sure that this information is available to those in a position of authority to decide this custody case."  Yes, she stops.  Or in one case when she was accusing me of harming the kids, I just kept saying, "You need some help. Before I can take seriously what you are saying, you needs some help from a professional." 

Using my own power with compassion: "I am happy to talk with you if you do not say mean things about DH or me, because it is important to me to keep my heart open to you.  I have a hard time keeping my heart open when you say things like nobody likes me, so I will hang up if you talk that way.  But feel free to call back once you have that in check."

And if she keeps being not nice, I just hang up.  This really works with her. 

And, when I do this, I feel so much better than when I use her way of seeing the world to dominate. 

I want to say that I know that for DH it is different.  He spent so much time in his relationship with her just bowing to her will to avoid her rages, that he had a time when her really needed to claim his power.  Some of that was using a more parental tone, as that was a tool he had.  I think the most important thing for him for a while was to be able to say, "No."  So I realize that it may be so important for you to be able to do this, even without compassion.

My point in communicating this is just that your feeling of discomfort with that tone is part of who you are, not just your learned fear of upsetting your BPD ex.  And you do not need to sacrifice that part of who you are to set and keep clear boundaries. 

Good job on being willing to be clear about your boundaries, in whatever form that takes.  Sounds like you are not being mean or rude, just using a parental tone to set boundaries.