PAS and How to Communicate w/ Ex Around Kids

[scraps66]

My last two activities attended with the kids, and ex and bf show up, ex has engaged me in “conversation” in front of the kids.  Typically a conversation with ex involves a series of “why” questions directed at me, with me responding.

The first was about traded time due to travel I had, where ex asked if I had any travel coming up for the following week.  She was already fishing for time paid back to her for a vacation I’m taking with the kids a month in the future.  I tell her this, then tell her, “however, you can have them Monday night because I have an appt,” this was a week where I was getting her time due to travel.  She then continues on and asks, “should I just keep them Tuesday night too?”  I say, “No, I was supposed to have them all week since I lost last week.”  She’s continuing this conversation right in front of S10.  To the point S10 jumps in and asks forcefully, “Why can’t you take us Monday night?  In the end ex e-mails me on Tuesday and simply says, “I’m keeping the boys tonight.”  She got her way.

The next, this past Sunday at a wrestling meet.  Whenever I get S10 a haircut she usually finds something wrong with the cut.  She comes to the meet, bf in tow, I’m sitting with my neighbor (best friend of ex’s bf) S7, S10 and S7’s best friend, neighbor’s son.  Ex walks up the bleachers, stands in front of me and the neighbor, and, again, asks me about a book S10 “needs.”  She had already asked me, and I told her I didn’t have the book, she’s asking again now demonstratively in front of the kids and neighbor and now bf, “DID YOU FIND THAT BOOK?”  I say again, I don’t have it.  Then to the haircut, the bf acknowledges the haircut as fine, ex pipes up and ask, “WHY DIDN’T S7 GET A HAIRCUT TOO?”  To which I simply say, “I didn’t think he needed a haircut.”  At this point she’s standing between me and my neighbor sitting side by side, hovering over S10.  Finally she goes away and stands at the end of the bleachers with the bf.

This is typical “conversation” for ex, ask a bunch of questions, offer no answers if asked questions.  So I’m trying to devise how to respond to her from now on, and I think my approach is going to be, when asked a question, ask a question.  I want to demonstrate and put her on notice that I won’t be interrogated in front of the kids. 

Other things that have been going on for a long time, things I hear from ex and the kids:

Ex says things like, when I ask that she doesn’t feed S10 cookies at 4:30 right before I pick him up for the evening and when he turns up his nose at my dinner, “Maybe he doesn’t like your cooking,”………S10 has now claimed an interest in cooking (ex’s bf likes to cook) and now routinely turns up his nose to each meal I cook including any kind of chicken which is a staple in my house;

Something ex told me after I mention trying to get him out of the house when it’s nice instead of just sitting on the couch and reading,  “I can’t believe you stopped him from reading,”………... S10 comes to my house, plops down on the couch, and reads incessantly and suspiciously quickly for a 10 yr old – 300 page novel in a weekend.  Ex is an avid reader;

S10 is an avid bike rider – at his mother’s house, but claims he can’t ride a bike at my house, “because I can’t ride in the street like I do at mom’s,”

I'm really feeling my kid slipping away from me.  Whenever I take a picture of S10, whether at a school activity, or at home, it is almost as if he intentionally does not smile, or frowns when I am taking his picture.  His brother does not do this.



 

[livednlearned]

So I’m trying to devise how to respond to her from now on, and I think my approach is going to be, when asked a question, ask a question.  I want to demonstrate and put her on notice that I won’t be interrogated in front of the kids.

[/quote]
These kinds of interactions are so tricky. I had to work with my T on this stuff, although for me it goes back to my family of origin and I struggled with this kind of thing in many of my relationships (supervisors, bosses, father, ex).

What works for me is to put the focus back on them . "It sounds like you are angry. Are you angry that the book is missing?" You don't necessarily have to ask it outright, you can state what you're thinking, the question is implied. "You seem upset that S7 did not get a hair cut." Sometimes, there is an outburst. "Of course I'm upset! You didn't do it right!" Not sure about your ex, but mine did not want to be seen having outbursts or losing control, so he wouldn't do that. My supervisor, on the other hand, can get worked up (she's not BPD, but very emotionally reactive). I'll say, "Are you ok? You seem upset. Do you need a few minutes?" My boundary with her (not stated overtly to her) is that I don't talk about my work or my thoughts or my actions when she is emotionally reacting to something. It's a trap.    For some reason, when I point out that she has feelings (about something pretty small) she kinda deactivates. 

If your ex regularly makes a scene, it might be worth talking to the boys in advance. "I notice sometimes that your mom gets upset when we're at events. I don't know why. How do you guys feel about it?" Or, if you feel pretty sure they don't like it, and know that they are uncomfortable, you can talk about how you want to handle it. "When your mom gets upset like that, she has a hard time calming down. What do you think is a good way to handle it?" You can offer your opinion on what might work. "I'm going to let her know that it feels bad, and if she is having a hard time being respectful and kind, we are going to xyz." Whether it's move somewhere else, leave the building, or repeat the word "Stop" until she moves away.

This last tactic -- repeating "Stop" is the only thing that ever worked with N/BPDx. I would literally hold up my hand and just keep repeating "Stop." That advice is from a book on verbal abuse by Patricia Evans. It felt a bit weird to talk to a grown man like he was a child, but darn if it didn't work. You have to stick to that one word. Sometimes I had to say it 10-12 times over and over, even though it was tempting to engage.

This stuff takes a lot of practice, especially if the conversation pattern is rooted in childhood. The first time I started doing this with my supervisor, I literally trembled. It felt like I was a little kid standing up to my dad. If this goes back a ways for you, maybe start with someone less challenging so you can experiment and get used to it first.

[ennie]

We have been through this all at my house, so here are my suggestions.  I became a stepmom 8 years ago, to SD10 and SD14 (almost 11 and 15) who were 3 and 7 at the time.  Major PAS, but with 50/50, it never stuck. Our attitude is that PAS is a sign they are having a hard time at mom's, and we love them through it.  Here are my thoughts:

* First, make sure you get equal time, and as the kids are older, longer times work better. Work on making that quality time.  For DH and I, this means one on one time.  At first this was 1 on 1 for each girl and Daddy, with me taking the child who was not having time with dad; now the kids also value me as a parent so like 1/1 time with me, too.  Do things that involve activities but where talk can happen, too. 

* Do not take it personally, if possible. Kids cling to the parent who needs it, as they are afraid of displeasing that parent and losing their love; as long as you stay in the picture, the kids will love you but if you are safe, they may sometimes reject you to please mom--that is a sign you are a good and safe parent.  I find reading about PAS to be useful in not taking it personally.  BPD mom did everything she could to make SD14 and SD10 hate daddy and also me.  As a step-parent, I was fine being thrown under the bus as a I felt it was better for the kids than throwing daddy under the bus.  As SD10 grew older, I realized that she sees me as a parent so it still creates guilt and shame when she throws me under the bus to make mommy happy.  It is easier not to take it personally as a SM, but our efforts have been to talk about how you cannot really love someone "more," either your heart is open or not, you either are feeling loving or not feeling loving.  Comparing is just to make someone who you love feel safe.

I also really work on validating the kids love for me and daddy.  Recently, SD10 was saying she feels comfortable talking to her sister first, daddy and mommy second, and me third (in fact, I think she turns to me most often).  She asked how I felt about being third (she used to say she loves us all the same, but needs mommy differently because she is little).  I just told her that I love her with all my heart, and do not love her any less because of how she loves her mommy and daddy and sister, and that I LOVE the way she loves me.  Again, that I love her NO MATTER WHAT, so her feeling how she feels is just part of what I love about her. 

This is both modeling how to love someone unconditionally (something our girls never get from mom), as well as helping her to know she is safe and loved no matter what by at least one parent.  This also shows by contrast that competitive loving feels worse than unconditional loving, and I have a belief that if kids experience lots of things, they have the option of picking the one that feels best later on... .the risk is that we get so overwhelmed by BPD folks' ways of operating and their impacts on the kids, that we replicate the stress and fear and competitive feelings in our relationships with the kids, as WE then feel actually threatened in the way BPD folks feel threatened all the time. 

* Know that it will pass.  It is most intense around transitions; and most intense between 8 and 12.  Getting a good strong base of love from you through this time is the most powerful thing you can do to teach them that they do not need to be like mommy to get love--they do not need to be the only one, do not need to be perfect, and do not need to reject someone they love or lie to get loved by you. 

* I personally also think it is important to confront the PAS directly (and Divorce Poison and other books also suggest this).  I see it like this:  talking about the other parent in a critical way or a way that can be perceived as a critical is very stressful for children, because they identify with and love the parent, so it hurts them to see a parent's faults when young, and it is scary to have your two special people in conflict.  Also, being manipulated such that a child cannot trust her own perceptions is also stressful for children. 

When you talk directly about this stuff, you are risking the kid's self esteem and sense of safety; and you are tending to your child's sense of self-trust.  The child loves you both.  If mommy says, "Your daddy does not take care of you and you really want to be with me!"  the child will agree, because mommy needs that.  But it is not true.  What is true is daddy takes care of the child too, and mommy feels scared and the child wants mommy to feel safe.  By asking the child questions and validating, you can help them to know what they feel and experience is valid.

* Set boundaries.  While it is important to validate feelings, it is also important to ask to be treated respectfully and to have consequences. If you let the disrespect grow, it is harder to address later. Both DH and I agree on this, but I am more clear about it (partly because I am probably less afraid of not being loved as I am a step-parent, so never expected the kids to love me as much as they do!).  I take immediate action when SD14 is being disrespectful, mirroring mom's meanness, etc.  I have taught her to communicate with "I" statements and feeling words, and blaming and calling names has consequences.  The way I explain it is that it takes energy to deal with someone being mean, so I ask her to pay back energy so I can be at a neutral place and keep my heart open to her.  I also use my power, not try to make the kids do things.  I say, "You can act how you want, but if you use mean words, I will not be available to take you to the thing you want to do later.  I want some repair work before I feel good about doing this extra thing for you."  We also encourage the kids to take a little break and come back to negotiate once they feel better; and we have "do-overs," so the kids get a chance to try out different ways of doing it.  If SD14 yells, "I hate you!" (she occasionally did when she was younger, but does not now), I would say, "I am guessing that you are really, really angry at me, and if you can tell me what you feel and what I did that triggered that, it will be easier for me to understand and be able to take that in."  Even when SD14, now a young woman, is REALLY angry with me, she says, "I am really angry at you," while she carefully washes the dishes she was assigned for stomping out of the room.  She then gets over it, and apologizes and negotiates.  I never tell her how she should be, but just what I want if we are going to work together, and I am consistent.  I am open to negotiation, but not to being bullied or pushed into things. 

* Get support.  When the kids hear others loving you, telling them what a great dad they have, it really helps.  It also helps to be loved through these most painful times. 

* Know that you are not alone.  My DH went through the most painful times of his life when SD14 was in the worst alienated phase.  She always still loved him, but not always on transition day!  He almost gave up custody many times,  but had lots of people helping him to see it was not about him, but about what the kids needed to do for mommy. 

*Communication with mom:  I personally go back and forth.  In general, I think conflict in front of kids is bad for kids and make them choose; if they must choose, they choose the person who needs them most, which is the BPD person.  So less conflict is number one, also for safety.  So I think unless you ask sweet and genuine questions, not mimicking BPD mom's sarcasm or distrust, probably something more soothing is better.  The book Walking on Eggshells has great examples of various ways to validate.  I also think that SOMETIMES, not often, if the BPD person is just not letting up in public, it is useful to say, "I ask that you speak kindly to me in front of the kids."  I do this because it models how to ask for what you want, and also shows them this is not appropriate.  Other options are to state a boundary, meaning what you plan to do.  With just complaining, this could be, "I am happy to talk with you about that issue when the kids are not present, and when it is not S's play.  If you keep talking to me after I have said this is not the time, I will be moving seats."  Or, "I will be leaving"  Then, leave or do what you say if she does not listen. She does not have to do it your way, but you have the freedom to take care of yourself and your child.

* Have and express faith.  I cannot tell you how many times I have said:  "I know you love me because of how it feels in my heart, but it is fine with me if you do not love me.  You are free to love who you love, and I have every faith in you loving me if that is how you feel. I love you even when you are angry with me, and I hear that you are angry right now.  That does not make me love you less." 

My experience is that for our kids, having gone through alienation attempts by mom and seeing us love them the whole time but also love ourselves, has made them more confident and capable of dealing with the pain of their mom's inconsistent love.  SD14 has really stopped that stuff, though she is still enmeshed with mom.  SD10 does some of it on transition day when mom is really dysregulated and the kids are stressed, but then unwinds and just loves us all. 

I think the bottom line is kids find love from parents and close adults irresistible.  They are hard wired to need it. So if you we can just figure out how not to engage in the drama, to let mom's wild ideas be her own that have nothing to do with your relationship with your kids, then you are free to love the kids.  mom's ideas will become part of who the kids are, but they are not who YOU are, and because you are two different people, if you stay true to who you are the kids get a choice about how they want to be when they grow up. The second we act like the BPD person--even if they have no provocation (except childhood abuse and a trigger) and we have serious reason to act that way--we are less helpful to the kids.

Good luck,  and good for you for finding the resources to deal with this extremely painful aspect of raising a child with someone who has BPD.  I think the core issue is that the BPD person can only accept love if she is the most important, only person... .so she wants that from her kids, and just cannot get it.  This is really not your problem; she cannot actually stop them from loving you, unless they never see you so it is ONLY her story they know if you.  Likewise, it you do not create your own story because you are caught in hers, they do not get to know you.  So do not worry about exactly how you respond to her; no response will help, in the long run, so for the most part it is best just to avoid contact when she is rude, IMO.  Save the energy in responding to you child in the most loving, compassionate, fun, and boundaries way you can.  That is what matters.  And remember, they cannot help but love you if they see and feel that you love them, rather than being focused on how you feel about his mom... .

[ogopogodude]

Kids are smarter than what we adults give them credit for... .

Just be nice at all times to one's ex.

The shenanigans of the ex (odd behaviour, swearing coming out of the pinhole of the ex, rages, stupid comments, etc) are all picked up on by children.

Even if the nuttiness bothers you, ... .don't let it show. Just let the bullets bounce off.

It takes effort at 1st, but after awhile, it becomes natural (like superman) to ignore stupidity by a BPD. The kids learn from you and will do the same after awhile.  

The kids KNOW who the "normal" parent is... .and who is "the nut-bar", ... .but simply be nice to the ex at all times. Niceness KILLS the BPD drive inside the afflicted person. It really does.  The BPD desires conflict and when they know they don't get the result they crave (i.e. vampire sucking the energy of those around them) then the affliction tends to dissipate/vaporize. Especially if it is documented (videotaped).

Children learn how to deal with interpersonal problems from you the parent. When they see you strategically solving an issue by being calm, they will do the same when they are in the same type of situation.

Kids learn from "show/do/tell".  They learn from what they see around them. Be a temper ridden parent, ... .they will become the same thing later on in life. 

[Panda39]

Hi scraps66,

My SO also went through a parental alienation campaign.  His uBPDxw had primary custody during their separation period. She had his daughters going through his things, reading his phone text messages, even what he had in the refrigerator and reporting back to her.  His uBPDxw used his daughters to falsely accuse him of child abuse.  He threw a phone into the couch (guess who was on the other end?  ) That became throwing the phone at the children, the phone shattering into a million pieces & their dad blocking the door so the children couldn't leave... .Really?  The child abuse was so serious that uBPDxw didn't even bother to show up at court... .she took the younger daughter out for a manicure   My SO told his story and the court found no abuse.

He never gave up on his girls.  He continued to be himself, continued to love them and continued to care for them.  Eventually when the divorce was final he received primary custody and got to spend more time with his daughters too.  Over time they realized that he is the same dad he always was. Combine his stability with mom's instability and his girls now have a realistic view of their parents.

So my advice... .be yourself, love your son, validate your son's feelings, and be aware of some of the pressures he is probably under.

By the way is your son receiving any therapy?  If so you might want to let them know about your concerns.

By the way check out Lesson 6 to the right that might help too. 

As far as communicating with the ex in front of the kids just keep it polite, short and sweet.  If she wants to push something that isn't urgent maybe just tell her you are here to watch the wrestling match just ask her to send you an email about it later.  There is also no law that says you can't tell her that you don't want to discuss something in front of your son and you will discuss it later. If she keeps pushing just keep telling her you will discuss it later.

Check out Lessons 2 & 3 too 

Good Luck