How do you handle when the other parent undermines you

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

So over the weekend SS was invited to attend a fun place with a friend's party. He was having a tough time on Friday night and then on Saturday a few hours before the party he refused to eat lunch. He also had refused to eat breakfast because he didn't like what we were having, this also happened on Friday night. His attitude wasn't great and so it became a struggle to get him to eat.

He accused me of forcing me to make him eat and how mean I was for that, you get the idea. I calmly explained that he had a choice he could eat or not eat but he was getting nothing else before dinner. In a very snotty manner he shoved his plate across the counter and said I'm not eating then. I said ok took his plate dumped the food in the trash and continued talking to the other kids. He made a comment about when we were leaving for the party. I calmly explained that the party would require a lot of energy (it was one of those bouncy run around jumping kind of places for 3 hours) and that his attitude/behavior/energy from not eating bf or lunch didn't warrant going to the party. I texted the party boys mom to let her know he couldn't make it and apologized. He flipped out, screaming, yelling, saying all sorts of hateful things (he did this in front of the other kids).  I kept so calm and never once raised my voice, yelled nor did I send him to his room, which after a few minutes he stomped crying to. I validated that he was upset but held firm with him not going to the party. He then insisted I let him eat the food he pushed away. I told him no and he continued to tell me how mean I was. I pointed out that I could see he was upset and that I wanted him to go to the party as well but that he was making the choice to yell, and not be nice. He then told me that he deserves respect and that means me letting him go to the party and then he will be nice. When he realized I wasn't budging he stomped off to his room. I went and talked to him about 15 min later but won't go into all that. Let's just say he was still snotty, played the victim, took no responsibility for his actions/choices and blamed me for him not having any fun and that his mom is so much better, he wished he was with her and he was going to "tell" her all about this. I offered to get the phone for him.

So on Monday when he was back with mom, she proceeds to tell him how she had emailed the boys mom and set up a sleepover because I was mean and wouldn't let him go to the party. WTH, why not just say hey buddy I sat up a sleepover for you... .I mean I know why but it is so annoying. It completely puts him in a position to play both sides and makes it seem like dad's house is all bad. Anything I can say/do?

[Swiggle]

So over the weekend SS was invited to attend a fun place with a friend's party. He was having a tough time on Friday night and then on Saturday a few hours before the party he refused to eat lunch. He also had refused to eat breakfast because he didn't like what we were having, this also happened on Friday night. His attitude wasn't great and so it became a struggle to get him to eat.

He accused me of forcing me to make him eat and how mean I was for that, you get the idea. I calmly explained that he had a choice he could eat or not eat but he was getting nothing else before dinner. In a very snotty manner he shoved his plate across the counter and said I'm not eating then. I said ok took his plate dumped the food in the trash and continued talking to the other kids. He made a comment about when we were leaving for the party. I calmly explained that the party would require a lot of energy (it was one of those bouncy run around jumping kind of places for 3 hours) and that his attitude/behavior/energy from not eating bf or lunch didn't warrant going to the party. I texted the party boys mom to let her know he couldn't make it and apologized. He flipped out, screaming, yelling, saying all sorts of hateful things (he did this in front of the other kids).  I kept so calm and never once raised my voice, yelled nor did I send him to his room, which after a few minutes he stomped crying to. I validated that he was upset but held firm with him not going to the party. He then insisted I let him eat the food he pushed away. I told him no and he continued to tell me how mean I was. I pointed out that I could see he was upset and that I wanted him to go to the party as well but that he was making the choice to yell, and not be nice. He then told me that he deserves respect and that means me letting him go to the party and then he will be nice. When he realized I wasn't budging he stomped off to his room. I went and talked to him about 15 min later but won't go into all that. Let's just say he was still snotty, played the victim, took no responsibility for his actions/choices and blamed me for him not having any fun and that his mom is so much better, he wished he was with her and he was going to "tell" her all about this. I offered to get the phone for him.

So on Monday when he was back with mom, she proceeds to tell him how she had emailed the boys mom and set up a sleepover because I was mean and wouldn't let him go to the party. WTH, why not just say hey buddy I sat up a sleepover for you... .I mean I know why but it is so annoying. It completely puts him in a position to play both sides and makes it seem like dad's house is all bad. Anything I can say/do?

[Panda39]

Unfortunately this kind of stuff sucks, but you can't control what the ex does while your kids are with her.  You can only control what goes on when your kids are with you.  Even in divorces without a BPD parent kids will play one off the other to get what they want. 

It's really hard to let it go when you feel what the ex is doing is wrong or is sending your son the wrong message, but unless she is putting your son in danger there really isn't much you can do to control her decisions. 

Just let it go and stick to your boundaries at your house.

[livednlearned]

How old is SS?

[Swiggle]

He will be 8 in a few months.

[livednlearned]

My son doesn't act out angrily in general -- even at 8 his tendency was to turn inward or cry. So dealing with defiance isn't something I've had a lot of experience with.

What comes to mind though is the advice in Parenting Kids with Love and Logic, where you let the kids push against natural consequences. It's hard to describe the whole technique here, I know I won't do it justice. I ended up using it because even just the slightest tone of disappointment and my son was a mess. But he needed consequences, so I shifted all my parenting over to that and it has worked well (as long as I'm consistent). It's kind of the parenting version of removing yourself from the Karpmann drama triangle, at least that's how I see it.

I've only read the teen version which is more about experiencing direct consequences, it might be a little different for younger ages. Sometimes you have to set these things up in advance. Like if the situation were with my son, I would say, "S13, if you don't like the meal, that's ok, but that's all I'm making. If you want something else, it has to be a healthy alternative that you make, and it has to be done in 30 when we clean up in the kitchen."

My son is a very picky eater and I ended up teaching him to make 2 different alternatives if he didn't like what I made.

[enlighten me]

It may seem harsh but stick to your boundaries. Your son will respect it in the long run. As long as your constant he will eventually see it. Yes you will have some rough times and your ex will undermine you but you will be a constant where as your ex will fluctuate.

Children need boundaries. They push against them and it makes them feel safe knowing that there is a boundary.

[Swiggle]

LNL - I picked up Parenting with Love and Logic for teens but haven't read it yet. I read the child version years ago, even before all of the blended family stuff with SS.

His eating is a struggle. The hard part is we eat pretty healthy, I try to limit processed foods and stuff out of a box. When he isn't with us his lunch would consistently have a pack of peanut butter crackers, juice pouch, gogurt and some sort of bite size muffin or candy. He would often tell us he would still be hungry. We helped him come up with ideas about how to handle that and one of which was ask for more/different things that help him feel full. His other eating habits are pancakes, French toast sticks, nuggets, kid cuisines, corn dogs. We have come a long way but he uses it as control. We worked with the T a lot on this and came up with "this is what we are having, eat as much or as little as you want but that is it and nothing else will be made." Sometimes he would go days without eating and would say I'll just wait until I go to my mom's she lets me eat whatever I want. Once in awhile this eating thing creeps up I don't get into a power struggle. In my mind the consequence for not eating and being snotty was not getting to go to the party. Maybe I should have let him go to the party but not partake in the pizza/cake. He said I was mean for not letting him do anything fun that day and that I never let him do fun things so I don't love him. He then proceeded to tell me how mom punishes him for things like this which is to take away his ipad for a few minutes. I gently let him know mom's house, mom's rules, my house my rules and that they are just different.

Enlighten - I hope one day he gets it. Sometimes I feel that even though he is ticked off and mad at my boundaries and consequences that deep down he knows it is the right thing to do. Then it seems like the wheels spin in his head almost as if he is thinking how can two people swiggle and mom both love me but treat me so differently with stuff like this. Then maybe he looks to what feels good and safe and realizes it isn't mom and her way but then feels guilty.

[livednlearned]

I think you're in a tougher spot than I'm in. I don't have the counter struggle stuff because visitation has ended, so S13 can't play me off his dad.

And my son is dx'd with depression/anxiety, he also is ADHD and has some sensory defensiveness. It's been a challenge trying to figure out where to even put the boundaries because he was emotionally fragile.

You handled it well -- you kept a boundary even when SS got upset, even when he tried to play you off his mom. That has to be hard. I'm watching my SO experience PA with his son, and it's so heart breaking. It's like watching the slow drip of his son peel away and become his ex's child.  :'( 

Your SS probably knows on some level that the boundaries are because you care. Even if he can't or won't express it.

[enlighten me]

Hi swiggle

I can relate with the food but im on the flipside. My eldest has renal failure. It was chronic but has been down graded as he has improved so much. Because of this food has always been a problem. Apparently children with health issues often use food as a weapon as it is one of the few things they can control.

My ex wife is very healthy when it comes to eating where as im more of the mind that you can eat what you like as long as you are active. That said I do try to have well balanced meals and limit junk to a minimum. I do recipes where I make the vegetables less apparent. One thing that works with mine is getting them to cook. They seem to be more open to healthy eatingwhen they cook it themselves.

I know you dont mean it when you say you want your son to feel guilty. He will see your steadfastness as a good thing. My boys have. They coment about their mums inconsistencies but also mention how I keep my word.

[Rubies]

For me the undermining was going on even when we were an intact family unit.  

Playing one parent off the other to broker the best deals possible is also common among kids, and relished by BPDs.  You be the safe, stable parent who actually delivers on their word.  The kids have to negotiate treacherous waters between a parent with no rules and one with all rules, being told they have power over outcomes and scared snotless because they prefer a grown up in charge.

With the more defiant b&w thinking kid, I gave her more grey area to back up and change attitudes.   I looked for ways to give her an out.  "You seem to've gotten up on the wrong side of the bed, perhaps you need to go back to your room, take 10 minutes for a Do Over.  I'll hold your breakfast."   I didn't call it a time out and I didn't say anything about the slammed door.  10 minutes later we have a happy cooperative kid or one with a thermometer in her mouth.  This may be contagious, bad attitudes often are.

I don't throw their food away, I store it safely until the day is over.  I don't keep junk food in the house, only healthy foods.  They are allowed to eat what I prepare or fix their own.  Eggs are simple.   The issue is never about the food and I won't let it be about food.  This acting out is about control.  2 things kids have total control over.  ---What goes in, what comes out.-- - Respect it.  

[Swiggle]

I know you dont mean it when you say you want your son to feel guilty. He will see your steadfastness as a good thing. My boys have. They coment about their mums inconsistencies but also mention how I keep my word.

I def. don't want him to feel guilty, I went back and reread my post to see if I wrote something that didn't make sense. What I was trying to say that may not have come out correctly is I think he sometimes feels guilty not that I want him to feel that way.

Ruby... .I like the idea of "maybe you need a do over" not sure it would work but I think it is worth a shot when he escalates. The food thing was tough from day one. I know it is all about control and not really about "the food" although who wouldn't want sweet sugary donuts for breakfast vs. an egg and half a bagel. I don't keep that stuff in the house either which makes it hard because then he's like well I don't want what you made... .and expects me to make something else. I think he is addicted to sugar for sure . You're right they have control about what goes in/out. We also had issues with him pooping in his pants. DH took him to the ped to make sure it wasn't a medical issue. A few times he would come home to us and smell terrible... .like it had been there for awhile.

I know it makes it hard for him when one place has rules and the other place has limited rules. Sometimes I feel bad because I know he struggles with the difference in rules and want to throw my hands up and be like eat what you want, stay up until you pass out, be snotty and hateful because then he won't feel bad and out of control. But I know long term it isn't what is best for him.

[livednlearned]

Straight up normal parenting tangent here 

But my son went through a poop smell thing. Not sure if it's what your SS8 is going through, but I'll just toss this out in case. I took S13 (7 or so at the time) to the pediatrician and after some questioning, we realized that he was pooping and then standing up before cleaning himself. Which created a huge stinky mess that was hard for him to deal with. And so he didn't really deal with it at all.

He literally had to be taught this one small thing: wipe and then stand. Not sure how we made it that far without me breaking things down for him. 

I thought it was diet, stress, you name it. Nope. The kid just needed a how-to.

[Swiggle]

Yeah part of SS issue was that he was "hurrying" and didn't wipe well. Sometimes he wouldn't wipe at all just get up and go. We explained that you wipe until you don't see anything on the paper and that sometimes it can take a few wipes. It is maddening, the smell terrible I'm surprised he wasn't being teased at school it was that bad. Or maybe just all the little boys smelled like poop so they didn't notice .

Once SS had been with mom for the holiday, Xmas. Her holiday was Xmas Eve and ours Xmas Day. When he came over that morning at like 10am, within minutes I was like what is that smell. I thought maybe someone had tooted. After several minutes and it was still lingering I took SS upstairs and sure enough there was actually a big clump like an entire piece in his underwear, it was clear that it had been there a while. I asked him when it happened and he said the evening before while he was at his grandma's house for Xmas Eve. So from around 6pm on Xmas Eve until 10am on Xmas morning he smelled and was walking around with it in this pants. I asked why he didn't change is underwear when he got home the night before and he said he went straight to bed. He then mentioned with a very sad face and tone that his mom didn't even notice the smell even in the car on the drive home from grandmas or to our house that morning. I noticed it within minutes of him walking in the door, it was almost as if he was seeing who/how long it would take for someone to smell it and tend to it.

[livednlearned]

That's pretty shocking that his mom wouldn't notice. I mean, the smell of poop isn't exactly subtle.

Poor guy.  :'(

[Swiggle]

That's pretty shocking that his mom wouldn't notice. I mean, the smell of poop isn't exactly subtle.

Poor guy.  :'(

I know I was furious although I made sure to validate how he felt and got him cleaned up. Later when DH and I were alone, I was like how in the hello could she have not smelled the fact that there was a substantial size piece in his pants that smelled up our entire living room... .and she was in a car with him for well over 30 minutes on each drive. Not to mention spending the evening with him and putting him to bed... .but you have to care about other people. I couldn't wrap my head around it, not even for a second. That is why it is hard to be upset with him but I know sometimes he uses that stuff to try and get what he wants.

[Rubies]

Yes, I think it's quite common to have to review wiping and other smelly self care topics with our kids from time to time.  

When an 8yo. sits in turds, not just skidmarks, he's feeling really bad about himself and whatever's going on in his life that causes this.  It could be a few things.

BPDs don't seem to care if they get their kids to a toilet or not when they're running their own agendas.  They don't care what the kids eat as long as they shut up and they don't have to make it.  It's common for kids in the care of BPDs to have potty accidents, potty issues, develop intestinal problems.  

Add this to his sugar crashes and chemical withdrawal at your house, you have a tiger on your hands!

We had special Welcome Home comfort meals to readjust the blood sugar and the gut.  High fat, high protein, high fiber, low carb, no chemicals, lots of flavor and fermentation.  Give him a choice out of 3 before he leaves so he knows what to look forward to when he comes home.  Give the kid a grace period for his body and brain to adjust.  

If he acts up after a good poop, it's either bad habit or he has an issue to be resolved.  Calmly look him in the eyes and say,  "You seem to be having a problem, would you like to talk about it?"  Stand there and wait for his answer.  It may be No, but he will talk by the 3rd time you ask.