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Author Topic: He's unable to "step into other's experience"  (Read 571 times)
Cat Familiar
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« on: February 12, 2015, 09:57:47 AM »

Last night I was having a discussion with my husband about a variety of things that have been bothering him: some about me, some about financial planning, some about his friends.

I chose to show him a vulnerable side of myself, partly to fend off his misconceptions of me being so self-assured and partly to show how past experience impacts current behavior. In a nutshell, I grew up with an extremely critical parent (as did he) and one of the ways I found to navigate this issue was to distance myself emotionally. I think he did the same, but I developed a very thick skin, while his is tissue paper thin. (He will think that a receptionist who doesn't immediately greet him with a smile is being "unfriendly" while I often won't notice if someone is being insulting to me--or I don't care if they're not a friend.) The consequence of this emotional distance that we've both developed is that we both retreat from intimacy. (I occupy myself doing things I enjoy while he sulks and feels sorry for himself and gets depressed.)

So, I attempted to demonstrate through using my own experience how the past has affected my openness and willingness to be present with him. I tried to simplify it and not go into detail, but show that childhood wounds manifest through adult behavior in less than optimal ways. (I said nothing about his experiences, believing that through metaphor he could translate it into his own life.)

Instead, he thought I was "feeling sorry for myself" and "really unhappy with my life." Nothing could be further from the truth. I do grieve that we don't have the closeness we once did, but I have a great life and I really enjoy myself.

At first, I thought he was being a narcissistic jerk because I was talking about myself. But upon consideration, I really don't think he is able to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes."

He talks about people he has tried to befriend and complains that he is no one's closest friend. When I ask simple questions about some of these people--like how many kids do they have, where did they grow up, what hobbies do they have--he has no clue. I'm beginning to think there's a big lack of emotional intelligence that is keeping him from having the closeness that he wishes.

Echoing this theory, I was telling him about something last night in answer to a question and he began leaning his head against the wall. "How long is this going to go on?" he said, indicating that I was giving him too much detailed information. Then hours later, I attempted to share a few sentences about a video that I had seen and he started pretending to shoot baskets and swinging at imaginary baseballs. Then it occurred to me that yesterday he was talking to an old friend on the phone and later complained that she talked so much that he kept trying to find an exit point without luck.

It's almost as if he needs to control the conversation so much that if he can't, it drives him crazy. No wonder he complains about not having close friends. He can't step into their worlds and participate with them.
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« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2015, 09:59:10 AM »

OOPS--Double post
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« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2015, 10:33:02 AM »

I seen my H with one friend, and that relationship burnt up in a year. When they would get together, my H dominated every conversation, and his friend was barely ever allowed to speak.

My H will do the same thing to me with talking. He went on for an hour last night, and at then end he says "Ok I'll shut up. It felt good to talk for awhile to someone. I'm here alone all day and you go to work blablah... " (this is a common theme. I work and am around other people, and he isn't. Therefore, he should be allowed to talk as long as he wants when I get home)

I don't mind most of the time. I listen... .I respond lightly, and usually stalk the Internet while he gets it out. I enjoy listening to him most of the time because he really is full of so much information. I learn a lot about everything from him. Plus, I know he needs that purge from time to time.

But yeah... .it's a battle for me to talk. He cuts me off and jumps in because something I said triggers a thought and he needs to blurt it out. He's actually getting better at this. We talked about it, and I gently remind him I'm not done, he he will stop. Not all the time... .but we are getting there Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2015, 07:35:59 PM »

I seen my H with one friend, and that relationship burnt up in a year. When they would get together, my H dominated every conversation, and his friend was barely ever allowed to speak.

My H will do the same thing to me with talking. He went on for an hour last night, and at then end he says "Ok I'll shut up. It felt good to talk for awhile to someone. I'm here alone all day and you go to work blablah... " (this is a common theme. I work and am around other people, and he isn't. Therefore, he should be allowed to talk as long as he wants when I get home)

My T is not a fan of labeling personality disorders because she believes that they have components of a variety of PDs, but that PDs arise from a narcissistic wound. That your husband dominates conversations and that mine doesn't seem to be able to imagine something from another person's perspective, seem to be narcissistic traits. They are so wrapped up in themselves that they cannot imagine how their behavior must come across to others. If they could see that, they certainly would not want to continue on the same path because it is not very appealing to be around.
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 08:26:47 AM »

At first, I thought he was being a narcissistic jerk because I was talking about myself. But upon consideration, I really don't think he is able to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes."

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Accepting that he CAN'T do this (at least where he is today) is huge.

If it is about him, you don't have to take it as being against you.

If you accept that he is this way, you can decide how that works for you in your life.

Radical Acceptance does wonders!
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 10:13:27 AM »

At first, I thought he was being a narcissistic jerk because I was talking about myself. But upon consideration, I really don't think he is able to "walk a mile in someone else's shoes."

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Accepting that he CAN'T do this (at least where he is today) is huge.

If it is about him, you don't have to take it as being against you.

If you accept that he is this way, you can decide how that works for you in your life.

Radical Acceptance does wonders!

Yes, not taking things personally really helps!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think that what he does resembles stepping into someone else's reality, but it's not quite the same. When he tries, he imagines what it would be like if he were in their situation. That is quite different than imagining what it's like to be them (with all their past history, programming, desires, dreams, fears, thoughts, sorrows, etc.)

That's why when he asked me what I wanted for Christmas and I told him that I wanted to get my car detailed, and then he gave me a gift of jewelry, I was so amazed that he didn't at all understand me. I have a rotator cuff injury and cleaning my car is not something that is enjoyable, fun or comfortable for me. Having yet another piece of jewelry is somewhat meaningless, but a clean waxed car would have been something that I would have been overjoyed to have.

But the jewelry was nice. (I'm accepting what he can do. Hopefully he will learn to notice me better--but I'm not holding my breath.)
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 01:30:14 PM »

I seen my H with one friend, and that relationship burnt up in a year. When they would get together, my H dominated every conversation, and his friend was barely ever allowed to speak.

My H will do the same thing to me with talking. He went on for an hour last night, and at then end he says "Ok I'll shut up. It felt good to talk for awhile to someone. I'm here alone all day and you go to work blablah... " (this is a common theme. I work and am around other people, and he isn't. Therefore, he should be allowed to talk as long as he wants when I get home)

My T is not a fan of labeling personality disorders because she believes that they have components of a variety of PDs, but that PDs arise from a narcissistic wound. That your husband dominates conversations and that mine doesn't seem to be able to imagine something from another person's perspective, seem to be narcissistic traits. They are so wrapped up in themselves that they cannot imagine how their behavior must come across to others. If they could see that, they certainly would not want to continue on the same path because it is not very appealing to be around.

Oh no doubt. That why everything he likes is the best, and things I do differently than him (even if effective, or in some cases more so), I'm still doing it wrong.

As far as I see it... .that's his problem not mine. In the beginning I tried to change how I did everything to accommodate him... .but I'm so over that now. I acknowledge his discomfort... .and go about my business.
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2015, 01:25:44 PM »

I had yet another example of my husband's inability to step into my experience last night. As any of you who have read my posts know, one of my issues in my marriage has been income inequality. When we got married, I spent almost all my inheritance building a rather large house for the two of us, expanding the tiny house I had built many years ago after I divorced my first husband.

Subsequently my husband unexpectedly inherited a substantial amount of money and in the meantime, he has been living like a wealthy person, while I've been on a very tight budget. I had some resentment about this, not because I want to buy a lot of stuff like he has, but rather now that I've got this big house, if we were to go our separate ways, I wouldn't have the means to keep it and I'd have to sell it. Whereas with my tiny house and the money I had before our marriage, my reality was sustainable.

So I felt some insecurity, particularly when we weren't getting along well and from having different goals in life. He likes to travel. I like to be on the ranch with all the animals.

My husband surprised me yesterday by setting up an account for me, more than enough to pay back my investment in the house. So my financial insecurity is now fixed.

I was shocked and appreciative. Here's where it gets dicey: I told him that because of insecurities I've had all my life, I never imagined that anyone would want to stay in a relationship with me (perhaps TMI) and that was where my insecurity started. He took that to mean that he had not shown me that he cared and that I doubted his trustworthiness. I tried to explain that it was just my issue (next time I'll save that for therapy) and suddenly I realized I was heading into JADEing territory, so I stopped.

But it was interesting that a vulnerable self-revelation got translated into BPD-speak as a criticism of him.
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2015, 02:07:30 PM »

"But it was interesting that a vulnerable self-revelation got translated into BPD-speak as a criticism of him"

Most of what I say that is the least bit related to my H is taken as personal criticism. This includes revealing my own feelings or vulnerability- ie he assumes that I am saying it is his fault. Basically, anything with the words "you" are a criticism.

" I feel... .sad, insecure, scared"      =  "you are a bad husband, you are defective, worthless, no good... ."

"The kids said... ."                       = you are a bad father, you are defective, worthless, no good... "

" Have you heard from your parents lately"  = "you are a terrible son, you didn't call them, you are defective, worthless, no good"


and then I am blamed for it... ."You did this, you put me in the hole again, you aren't affectionate enough to me we never have sex, you didn't do this... ."


I'm venting here, but I try not to say anything to him that I would not say to an employer, or co-worker. Just keep conversations to the business of running the home, news updates on the kids, TV shows. For most of our marriage I aimed for intimacy and it didn't work well. Now, my main wish is peaceful partnership. We are good partners like we would be in the workplace, with I guess a physical side in the mix of that.

It is so cool Cat, that your H came around to starting to be fair with the finances though! We have made progress in some areas too, but have to work at not being too emotional or getting personally deep.
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2015, 02:32:19 PM »

  Tough that he can't hear what you have to say. And tough that you can't just rewind and say "Thank you. I'm overwhelmed."

Setting all the crappy stuff aside... .I'm wondering about his motivation to do this... .and not in a bad way, either.

Maybe he knows he's really stupid with money, and will blow his entire inheritance on cameras he never shoots pictures with, or whatever. And he can't admit that to himself. And the same small sane part of his mind knows that you are good with money, and if he gives a big chunk to you, where he can't pull anything stupid with it, it will still be there years after he's pissed through the rest of it.

Of course, I hope you know better than to mention this theory to him!
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2015, 03:27:29 PM »

 I'm relieved to finally understand why for years any attempt to bare my soul to my H- to share my feelings and have him share his was so impossible. Trying would just result in me crying with frustration. Still I hoped it would be possible on day, so I kept trying with the same results. Now I know I don't have to keep trying.

But the relief is also mixed with grief at the knowledge that it can't happen and likely will not happen - and to forge a new kind of relationship with the communication we are capable of.
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2015, 06:21:44 PM »

 Tough that he can't hear what you have to say. And tough that you can't just rewind and say "Thank you. I'm overwhelmed."

Setting all the crappy stuff aside... .I'm wondering about his motivation to do this... .and not in a bad way, either.

Maybe he knows he's really stupid with money, and will blow his entire inheritance on cameras he never shoots pictures with, or whatever. And he can't admit that to himself. And the same small sane part of his mind knows that you are good with money, and if he gives a big chunk to you, where he can't pull anything stupid with it, it will still be there years after he's pissed through the rest of it.

Of course, I hope you know better than to mention this theory to him!

Yep another instance of 20/20 hindsight!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) I can't believe the stupid things that come out of my mouth at the most inappropriate times! 

I think he decided to set up the account for me because he was doing a trust and it kind of galled him to have to give all the family money back to his sisters' kids, who he views as spoiled and entitled brats. So I'll be the trustee, with life estate and when we both kick the bucket, the kids will get everything (but the house--and I have to update my planning and decide where that will go.)

He can be a spendthrift, as BPDs often are, but he's also fiscally prudent--I think he's almost done with the camera thing. He did the same thing with stereo gear a couple of years ago. I can't believe how much high end camera and stereo stuff costs. It's funny because I have zero interest in either.

I tend to spend money on property maintenance and improvement and fences--always need to fix fences.
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2015, 08:12:56 PM »

 Tough that he can't hear what you have to say. And tough that you can't just rewind and say "Thank you. I'm overwhelmed."

Yep another instance of 20/20 hindsight!  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) I can't believe the stupid things that come out of my mouth at the most inappropriate times! 

 Don't beat yourself up too much about that... .what you were trying to do instead WAS a good thing, and it probably would have been very well received by a more emotionally healthy person.

And a more emotionally healthy person than your husband who did get upset would have recovered better/faster, and soon figured out that your heart was in the right place even if your tongue wasn't.

Sometimes it is just exhausting/soul-deadening to keep all the emotionally challenging stuff out of your interactions with your spouse. 

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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2015, 09:57:54 PM »

Sometimes it is just exhausting/soul-deadening to keep all the emotionally challenging stuff out of your interactions with your spouse. 

This is so true.  Cannot count the times that I just keep things to myself. 
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2015, 10:29:14 PM »

I agree. It makes me sad to think about it. I wanted so much to be able to connect with my H on this level but I don't feel like it's a possibility. It's hard keeping things to myself and also hard speaking to someone who doesn't understand it and dysregulates.

I feel like I just have to accept the good parts and let go of the other- but that's a loss that I grieve at times.
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« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2015, 11:27:14 AM »

 Don't beat yourself up too much about that... .what you were trying to do instead WAS a good thing, and it probably would have been very well received by a more emotionally healthy person.

And a more emotionally healthy person than your husband who did get upset would have recovered better/faster, and soon figured out that your heart was in the right place even if your tongue wasn't.

Sometimes it is just exhausting/soul-deadening to keep all the emotionally challenging stuff out of your interactions with your spouse. 

So true, so true. I keep getting fooled sometimes when he's highly functional and I mistake him for an emotionally healthy person.  Idea

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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2015, 08:08:59 AM »

My H is high functioning too Cat. On a non-intimate level, he is just wonderful. Everyone always says such nice things about him.

I just assumed that as time went on, he would learn to trust me and open up more. I had no idea of what would happen if we got close. Sometimes I have been jealous of his friends and co-workers as it seems they got the best of him. His attachment to me put him in a more vulnerable place.

We get along well when I keep this in mind, and limit conversation to the level of the workplace. However, sometimes I just despair that it isn't more intimate. Like you Cat, I get fooled by the high functioning and then dip below the surface. It has not gone well at all and I regret it when I do. Then I just grieve again.

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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2015, 09:00:00 AM »

When I do bring up the emotional divide, my H either takes it down that path of being criticised " you think I'm defective" or blames me for it " you just don't know how to be happy".

It's a blessing that he is high functioning. I am very grateful for that, having grown up with a mom who is not. He is a wonderful husband and father in many aspects. I can meet him at that by being a good wife and mom.

Maybe I should just accept this and stay grateful. Most of the time I do. I truly believe that I am fortunate in many ways.

We do well together as long as I do not talk about anything personal.

Sometimes he is self aware of that pain of feeling disconnected from me, however, he can easily disconnect from that through his job where he is very well liked and has many admirers. We were out to dinner a while back and one of his female coworkers was all over him. I don't think my H is cheating. I recognized the type- histrionic, divorced, poor boundaries on the prowl... .clearly trouble if you get involved with her. I didn't even feel any jealousy. However, he gets plenty of this flirting and admiration every day to boost his self esteem. He brings this back at home too "everyone likes me except for you".

This is not me. A flirty guy does not boost my ego.  I wouldn't speak two words to some romeo at work, other than what job needs to be done. My fulfillment comes from true friendship and connection to people and these connections are rare. I know that this is one reason my H is jealous of my childhood friends even though we are not romantic. I am connected to them. However, I had always hoped to feel this connection to my H, and I feel sad that my attempts to do this have failed.

I know that not all people are married. Single people feel connected to others too. How do you do this without breaking your marriage vows? I would appreciate suggestions- friends, counseling, family? Has anyone achieved any sort of emotional intimacy with their BPD spouse and how?


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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2015, 09:14:28 AM »

Maybe I should just accept this and stay grateful. Most of the time I do. I truly believe that I am fortunate in many ways.

We do well together as long as I do not talk about anything personal.

Hi Notwendy,

May I ask what kind of personal things you wish to speak about with your H?

Has anyone achieved any sort of emotional intimacy with their BPD spouse and how?

This relates to my first question.  How do you define "emotional intimacy"? 
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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2015, 09:38:59 AM »

When I do bring up the emotional divide, my H either takes it down that path of being criticised " you think I'm defective" or blames me for it " you just don't know how to be happy".

I've heard other variations on this theme: "Nothing is ever good enough for you." "Haven't I given you everything you want?"

Yes, I've tried to explain this lack of connection, intimacy, trust to no avail. He just interprets it as criticism.

And he had attractive female admirers at work, but now that he's retired, he doesn't get that kind of feedback as much. He is a regular at a local lunch place where everybody knows his name (like the bar in "Cheers" and he takes his art photos to be framed at a very expensive frame shop, where the owner makes a big fuss over him. (She's cute and she charges double compared to all the other frame shops, but he think she does "better" work, but he has no experience with any other store.)  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Like you, I don't think he's cheating, but he does need that flirting to make him feel attractive. To me, it's like he's paying people to fawn over him and it's kind of pathetic.
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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2015, 09:47:10 AM »

This lack of connection certainly wasn't present at the beginning of our relationship. Then, I thought I could tell him everything and I didn't censor myself; I didn't know then about trying not to WOE. Little by little, we grew apart. For me, it was his excessive drinking that became very problematic. At first I excused it, thinking he had just been through a divorce, had moved to a new area to be with me, was in a new job that was really a step down for his career. When the drinking continued after he retired and we got through a tough and protracted housebuilding era, I started thinking that there were no external excuses any more. I pulled away and became more distant. And I criticized his drinking. I was really fearful for his health and well being after a few episodes where he mixed alcohol and prescription meds and I found him unresponsive--almost to the point of calling 911 on a few occasions.

He's more moderate now, but he still harbors concerns that i'm constantly criticizing him. Since I've found these boards and started my own therapy, I have made a zero criticism policy for myself, which I have rigorously maintained. However with a BPD, even normal conversation can occasionally be translated into criticism.  

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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2015, 10:12:39 AM »

Phoebe,

Emotional intimacy isn't easy to define, but the best way I can explain it is to be seen, heard, and understood clearly, to have my intentions known. This would be a two way street and I would do that for the other person.

In this context, one could speak of anything- personal or not, and each person would know and understand the other.

Naturally, no two people are alike, so if something was misunderstood, or there were hurt feelings, reconcilliation would be possible. Also, in this context, people could build up a shared history and point of reference.

For instance, with old friends, siblings- we share a history, know each other, so when someone says something, they can be pretty sure that they are understood.

Where does this break down with my H? In almost any topic, other than clearly not personal, the chance of communication break down is high. It can be almost anything. If he is dysregulated, he tends to wipe the incident out of his memory, so building a shared history is hard.

For something personal- when I got so depressed that I went on antidepressants, I tried to tell him, but he tuned it out and forgot about it. Once I was concerned about one of the kids' behaviors, and I asked him a question about himself at that age, just to get an idea about how he would have delt with this and he raged at me ( assumed it was criticism).  His mother went into a nursing home and I asked him who was taking care of the house that she lived in. He assumed I was criticising her house and raged at me.  These are just examples of things one would discuss with a family member- not someone at work.

Then there are general misunderstandings. Once I urged him to shorten a family visit because of an incoming snow storm. I thought he understood that it was because of the weather. He took it to mean I was insulting his family and raged.

The common theme is that these topics include him, his family, or my feelings. I would consider that to be personal.  There was no intent of being critical or hurtful in them, but he interpreted them as criticism and my intent as to attack and insult him.

It is so frustrating to be misunderstood, so sometimes I just say nothing.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2015, 11:54:16 AM »

For something personal- when I got so depressed that I went on antidepressants, I tried to tell him, but he tuned it out and forgot about it. Once I was concerned about one of the kids' behaviors, and I asked him a question about himself at that age, just to get an idea about how he would have delt with this and he raged at me ( assumed it was criticism).  His mother went into a nursing home and I asked him who was taking care of the house that she lived in. He assumed I was criticising her house and raged at me.  These are just examples of things one would discuss with a family member- not someone at work.

Then there are general misunderstandings. Once I urged him to shorten a family visit because of an incoming snow storm. I thought he understood that it was because of the weather. He took it to mean I was insulting his family and raged.

Yikes, that would bother me too

It is so frustrating to be misunderstood, so sometimes I just say nothing.

Have you ever strongly stated to him, "It is so frustrating being misunderstood!  I feel FRUSTRATED! I can't even take it, I'm going for a walk".

?

What do you think would happen if you did?

Can you imagine coming back from that walk and then calmly expressing your feelings?

I'm a firm believer that eggshells need to be stomped on once in a while... .about the really big things.
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2015, 01:00:41 PM »

In general, any anger or frustration towards him is turned into a lot more rage. His strongest emotion is rage.

It's ironic, he can be the most understanding and compassionate person to his family- parents, and others. It  is me that he rages at when triggered. The only way I know to be treated respectfully is to maintain a low emotional not too close presence and also respect those tight boundaries he has on his personal self.

For things that are important to me, I will persist past the raging. For some things, I just don't care. The last time he visited his family, I stayed home. That way, he can stay as long as he wants, get stuck in snow if he chooses to, and not have anyone be in the way of what he wants to do when he wants to do it. If we travel together, I have to depend on his plans, and so, I am becoming more selective about when I go with him.

He knows I am frustrated. I have cried, pleaded and even brought it up in counseling. I think it is his way of controlling the level of intimacy we have when we do talk, or that he is so easily triggered that he turns much of what I say into an insult to him. Another reason I avoid saying much is that it seems so painful to him, that he really believes he is a victim at the moment.
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2015, 01:27:22 PM »

He knows I am frustrated. I have cried, pleaded and even brought it up in counseling. I think it is his way of controlling the level of intimacy we have when we do talk.

You know your H better than anyone. 

I wouldn't plead or cry or bring it up for discussion with a therapist, I'd act on it in real time, express myself right then and there.  "I'm freakin' frustrated!"  And then do something to take care of myself.  Fresh homemade guacamole usually makes me feel better Smiling (click to insert in post)

My guy's intention isn't to frustrate me (or whatever the case may be), so if I'm upset it really isn't about him.  It's about me and my wants, needs and desires.  In a situation like this, unless I make them known, I don't expect him to understand; he's got his own whatever going on.  Well, so do I and "I'm freakin' frustrated!"

For me, it's worked wonders.  He's not a rager though.  Although his sarcasm could have a debilitating effect, and it would FRUSTRATE me. 

I felt I had nothing to lose by letting him know.

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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2015, 02:26:13 PM »

That is great advice- I am going to try this.

"I'm frustrated" keeps the focus on me, not what I want him to do. Thanks!
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 02:52:32 PM »

My H rages and during those times, he speaks as if he is being attacked.

His FOO, ( the ones who first scrambled his thinking) really trigger him. When I am there, he projects it on to me. I can see them pushing his buttons. He also feels he has to act perfect around them. His father was critical and verbally and emotionally abusive. Family members also don't talk about anything personal and behave as if all is fine.

He's raged at me for being a few minutes late for meals because it took longer to get the kids ready, not talking enough to his family members even though nobody else is talking. Some of it he makes up. His family is traditional where the men hang out and the women do all the work of meals and so on. So he hangs out with his dad while I help with cooking, dishes, clean up and later he accuses me of not being nice to his family. It's like "what planet are you on if you think that?"

The weather thing started with his sister. She saw on the news that a storm was coming and told H to get on the road. I agreed and said I didn't want to get caught in the storm. He picked up on our anxiety ( about the roads) and later said " you two are attacking me, you're just hammering me!"  Then he acted all bravado saying "you're the one who is anxious about driving in snow, I'm not". Well, I guess he then decided that he was not going to let us tell him what to do. He finally did agree to leave, and then raged at me for it.

Long story but this illustrates to me that when he is triggered, he mispercieves a lot- what we say, emotions. He frequently thinks he is being attacked, criticized, hammered ... .and this was not even about him, but a snowstorm. my boundary? I don't think I am going to go on these trips with him. I can't avoid all of them, but being in a car for hours just makes it a set up for being raged at.

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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2015, 04:25:14 PM »

My H rages and during those times, he speaks as if he is being attacked.



You can't stop him from raging. You can remove yourself (and your children) from his presence when he does it.

This is simple boundary enforcement. Do you help on this? I know you've been 'round here a while, and don't remember a discussion about how to do it.

When you are really solid in your ability to do that, you will realize that you don't have to be afraid of his raging, because you can and do protect yourself from it when he does.

Excerpt
I don't think I am going to go on these trips with him. I can't avoid all of them, but being in a car for hours just makes it a set up for being raged at.

And yes, avoiding situations like that where you are trapped as a sitting target of it is an excellent idea. (Your other choice would be to go in a separate car from him.)
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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2015, 05:33:54 AM »

Thanks Kitty, I don't buy into the rages anymore. I used to JADE and cry and it didn't do any good- made things worse. Now I do walk away or try to ingnore them, and I don't respond.

I did try to bring up being frustrated trying to communicate with him. I said it is frustrating to say something that isn't intended as a criticism, and have it end up that way. He seemed to understand and then said " you did this to me over Valentines Day"  

Before Valentines day, I asked him if he wanted to go to dinner, and he said no, but then, decided that I didn't like that answer and tried to back track. Not being able to, he decided that I "put him in the hole" by not letting go of what he said the first time.

My side of the story is that when I heard that he didn't want to go to dinner, I wanted to consider what he wanted so that we could have a nice time. So when he tried to backtrack- I replied " if you don't want to go to dinner, we can do something else- see a movie, stay in... .. He didn't hear the "IF" part of that sentence. What he heard was " you don't want to go to dinner" and assumed I was defining him and invalidating him. This is what I was supposedly "doing to him" over Valentine's day.

I was able to explain it as asking him about his preferences, not defining him. I think he understood that. I was able to see where he interpreted my words as invalidating when there was never any intent for that. It's like his critical father set a pattern in his mind and he fits my words into that pattern. So frustrating. I hope that I can catch this more when it happens, but I can't do it at the moment he is triggered.
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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2015, 06:45:07 AM »

I think it is pretty awesome that you were able to communicate well about the Valentine's Day disagreement, at least after the fact!  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Good work both on your part and on his!

Thanks Kitty, I don't buy into the rages anymore. I used to JADE and cry and it didn't do any good- made things worse. Now I do walk away or try to ingnore them, and I don't respond.

YAY! You are doing soo much better. There is still room to improve a bit.

Walking away from a rage is excellent. As boundary enforcement goes, it doesn't get any better.

Your other choice of ignoring it/not responding may not be quite as good as you think, 'tho it sure beats JADEing!

It is invalidating to act like it isn't happening when he is expressing his anger. (And it has an impact on you to listen to it, even when you try not to let it.) The two best approaches you can take are to assert your boundary to protect yourself. "I won't listen to this rage." or to validate his feelings "You sound angry."

Validation is a long shot to deflect a rage... .And also when you are being attacked is about the hardest time ever to be sincerely validating. This is a really advanced approach that I'd only recommend trying when you are feeling genuinely loving, and very grounded and centered and really aren't taking what he's started saying personally. And watch yourself when you do--you may lose your compassion real fast; time to cut your losses and enforce the boundary!

Excerpt
Before Valentines day, I asked him if he wanted to go to dinner, and he said no, but then, decided that I didn't like that answer and tried to back track. Not being able to, he decided that I "put him in the hole" by not letting go of what he said the first time.

This is my 20/20 hindsight here... .if you had validated his feelings at this point when he was trying to backtrack, that could have let him wind down before he really got going... .and you two could have then come up with a plan you both would like for Valentine's Day.
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