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« on: February 12, 2015, 11:08:33 PM »

There are some of you who have acquired great skills and wisdom to understand how to live in harmony with a pwBPD. I want to learn how to improve my ability to not only manage, but thrive in a relationship with a BPD. This is an opportunity to disclose your successful strategies to not only stop making things worse, but rather ways you've learned to make life wonderful.
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2015, 01:07:52 AM »

try telling them this ( and meaning it )

I love you enough to let you be free to do what you want ( yes including cheating it makes it slightly less likely ) I love you enough to always be there if you need me I love you even when you hurt me I love you enough to tell you if i think what you are doing is wrong

you will last longer than most with this unfortunately i have way to much expirience good luck
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2015, 04:35:31 AM »

Be aware that even though it sounds like the sky is falling in, usually its not really... Being cool (click to insert in post)

Dont get too awed by others apparent wisdom, it is easier to say this stuff than do it at times.

Once you get better at building bridges it does'nt matter too much if you let a few burn occasionally. Failure is part of the ebb and flow. In other words don't be to self critical its never going to be perfect, just as long as it continues to get a little better its a job well done|iiii
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 06:52:42 AM »

I think it means to never react emotionally to them... .

We've been busy lately and haven't spent much time together. He sent flowers for Valentine's Day. I thanked him for them and then asked if he's like to go to dinner on Sat.

He replied that it would be a hassle, there'd be crowds and so on, so I figured he didn't want to do that. I responded to him like I would anybody who didn't want to go to dinner... .

"We don't have to go out... I could buy some nice steaks or something and make a nice dinner here" Then he said, unenthusiastically, well we could try to go out to dinner.

So later I said, maybe we could see a movie to which he snapped " we could see a movie or dinner or both" At this point he could sense the disappoinment in my voice - and frustration- what does this man want? I really had no idea if he wanted to go to dinner or not.

To which he dysregulated on me- "You've put me in the hole again. See- once I said I didn't want to deal with the crowds you got it in your mind that I didn't want to go to dinner and now I can't go back on that and say we can try to go to dinner ( and on and on)

He starts these things with "YOU did this to me" Huh? I did what to him?

Well, I didn't JADE, I just said "I'm not sure what you mean to "try to go to dinner" - should I make a reservation?

Then he said "yeah do that".

So to start- does he want to go to dinner or not?  I have no idea.  What do I want to do? I really don't care. This is not sounding appetizing. Since I am focusing on what I want, I'd be happy either way- go out, buy steaks. I honestly don't care.

To me, a romantic dinner is more about the company than anything else and this was a downer.

Since he left it up to me, I think I'm going to buy steaks and stay home and drop the subject.

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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 07:16:27 AM »

He sent flowers for Valentine's Day. I thanked him for them and then asked if he's like to go to dinner on Sat.

He replied that it would be a hassle, there'd be crowds and so on, so I figured he didn't want to do that. I responded to him like I would anybody who didn't want to go to dinner... .

"We don't have to go out... I could buy some nice steaks or something and make a nice dinner here" Then he said, unenthusiastically, well we could try to go out to dinner.

When he initially said there would be crowds and so on, I would've responded with, "Yea, I can picture that... ."  And then waited for his next response.  I think we sometimes jump to conclusions in thinking we know exactly what they're thinking, when sometimes, they're just thinking out loud, working through their own thought processes... .
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 07:39:14 AM »

I think you're right about that, thanks.

His initial responses to most of my suggestions are negative, so I tend to be discouraged. He usually comes around but by then, his "thinking aloud" has affected my enthusiasm over something.

I think this is what he means by being in the hole- but I didn't put him there. By the time he's ranted over something, and then decides he wants to do it, I just want to forget the whole thing. I think he realizes that I'm not as enthused about the dinner anymore.

I guess I just have to step back and let him work out his thoughts. They often sound like anxiety- worrying about crowds and so on. However, I know he hates noisy crowded restaurants and they probably will be this weekend.

This man seems to "rain on my parade". We've taken trips to places I really want to see, and when I am happy, he starts ranting about how expensive it was and how much it cost him- even though he agreed to that long before the trip and seemed to want to go too. We went to see a family member who I had not seen in years a while back and he went on about how it was all about MY family... .even though most of the trip was not to see that person- it was a trip he wanted to take and we did all kinds of things on our own. When I saw an old family friend who I hadn't seen in years ( yes, male ) and seemed happy to see him, my H ranted about how I don't get as excited to see him. ( well maybe I would act like that if I had not seen him in decades).

We also do many things because my H wants to- see his family, go places he picks, but it sounds crazy, but when I show enthusiasm over something- go to dinner, whatever, he seems triggered.
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 07:53:31 AM »

Dont get too awed by others apparent wisdom, it is easier to say this stuff than do it at times.

AMEN, BROTHER! (And this coming from someone whose spiritual practice is Buddhist!)

Which brings me to my advice... .Be mindful of what YOU are feeling at the moment, and how strong and centered you are right now, and what you are capable of doing right now.

At times you will be frustrated and angry and hurt, and not have it in you to validate, or even care how he's feeling. That's OK. Do the best you can then, which is probably give yourself space.

Other times you will be feeling very loving and caring and accept him as who he is. You will be able to hear his worst fears about you, and not take it personally and validate how he feels about it.

And everywhere inbetween. And you may go from one to the other in 15 seconds. All this is OK. Do the best you can with where you are at the time.
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 07:54:26 AM »

To get back on track to BPD whisper, it seems that harmony for us is for me to not sway to either emotional side- sadness or happiness, just keep an even keel middle.

I don't deny those parts of myself, but I feel as if I express them in different parts of my life. I may share my feelings with a friend. If I'm upset about something or happy, I call a friend before I would my H. The last time I cried in front of him, it triggered a rage.

I don't know what this says about my r/s to feel the need to do this. We have children, we have been married a long time, but I have come to accept that there are limits to what I can share with him.
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 08:19:22 AM »

try telling them this ( and meaning it )

I love you enough to let you be free to do what you want ( yes including cheating it makes it slightly less likely )

I love you enough to always be there if you need me

I love you even when you hurt me

I love you enough to tell you if i think what you are doing is wrong

you will last longer than most with this unfortunately i have way to much expirience

good luck

On this vein, we play a game called 'why I love you'.  We take turns and rhyme off specifics about the other person that we really like, one at a time.  I most always think of more than he can, but that's okay.  I think it does him good to know what traits he has that I like, or admire him for.  God knows I tell him what I don't like often enough!  This helps to counteract that.

There are some of you who have acquired great skills and wisdom to understand how to live in harmony with a pwBPD. I want to learn how to improve my ability to not only manage, but thrive in a relationship with a BPD. This is an opportunity to disclose your successful strategies to not only stop making things worse, but rather ways you've learned to make life wonderful.

FYI - I really don't think I qualify as being 'in harmony' with my BPDh... .but small steps add up, right?     ... .well, it's harmonious while he's sleeping... .does that count?   

The best thing I've done for our relationship is to focus more on me.  And set boundaries that help define clear 'guidelines' to what works for me, and consequently him.  I think a lot of our issues have risen over the years because I DIDN'T do this early on in the r/s. 

Now that I'm getting back to this focus, things are improving.  Self soothing, knowing my own feelings and voicing them (even if it isn't directly to him), staying connected to my own strengths... .but like Waverider says, it's easier said than done.   

So, I guess adding that we need to stay forgiving of ourselves when we can't be strong is important too.

c.

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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 09:58:44 AM »

These are great ideas!  Idea Idea Idea Thanks.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  

My husband has been so depressed lately, he's almost non-verbal. Thanks to the support I've received here, I no longer ask, "How are you feeling? What are you thinking?" in a futile attempt to get him to come out of his shell and start engaging in conversation.

I had an epiphany yesterday after a wonderful session working with my young mare that horse training isn't much different than modifying my behavior when I'm with a pwBPD. (Honestly, I understand animals much better than people--and lots of times, it's much more fun and way more pleasant to be in their company.) I realized that I would never chase around a horse, trying to get them to come to me. Rather I would leave them alone and make myself so interesting that they would be curious and seek me out. Horses learn from release of pressure, so if I'm constantly leaving my leg on her side to get her to bend through the ribcage, she will soon ignore it. So I must press, release, press, release, in a rhythmical pattern as she bends. Horses need boundaries. I train them not to come into my personal circle of space unless invited.

So how this translates to my husband: 1. By pestering him to interact with me, it would be like me running after a horse all over the pasture with a halter and a lead rope.

2. I'm not going to live in a relationship that is totally silent, so I venture a comment (pressure), then I return to reading the newspaper (release).

3. I've established a boundary with my night-owl husband. I go to bed no later than 10:30. I invite him to join me. If he doesn't want to, that's up to him.

So last night I implemented #1 and 2. I've been doing #3 for a while now. So he wasn't sleepy when I was getting ready for bed and he came upstairs to say goodnight for me. He gave me a very wholehearted hug and told me I was "everything" to him. (Very different from the pro forma hugs I've been getting previously.)
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 10:39:42 AM »

I don't ride horses now, but I did for a while as a kid. I think horses are way easier!

I like your boundaries. He can decide what to do about his moods, but you don't have to accommodate them.

To me, it's not even at the point of letting the horse come to me. It's like we are both in the same pasture, and I just want my happy green spot and if he wants to join me, then great, and if not, there's room in the pasture somewhere else, but please, don't poop on my spot.
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« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2015, 11:18:43 AM »

I think another thing that is a big help is for the non to have a completely non-judgmental attitude.  Don't judge the BPD or anyone else while in the presence of the BPD.  Seems to make them more comfortable.
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« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2015, 01:09:17 PM »

Don't even make a suggestion especially in public.

One of the few times my H went off the deep end in a public place ( he's careful about not being seen like this) was when I made a suggestion about one of the kids in front of people. It had nothing to do with him, it was only about the child. In his mind, it was somehow undermining him in front of people and he went into a rage. I remember people staring at us. I had no idea what was going on with him at the time.

Once I made a suggestion that he use a different credit card for something ( as we accounted for things on different cards) and he just raged " I'm using this card".

Now, if it isn't something important, I just let it go. Most of the time it isn't an issue. I welcome suggestions and constructive comments, such a driving directions but I don't say a word to my H when he is driving.

Once we were following him to get somewhere. Two cars, kids in mine, and he took this long way that ended up taking thirty minutes longer. One of the kids said ( in my car ) "dad is driving in circles". I felt it was important to validate my child, and I sad yes, but Dad makes his own choices, and when you drive, you can make yours.
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« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2015, 04:11:59 PM »

Remove pressure and expectations, and leave them choice and roll with it.

You will be surprised they will often choose what they would otherwise have resisted
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« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2015, 11:50:03 PM »

Remove pressure and expectations, and leave them choice and roll with it.

You will be surprised they will often choose what they would otherwise have resisted

An other thing I have noticed is when I say something I feel would be the most common sense and she would not want to hear it, it happened often that she whould hear it from someone else and than find out it made sense. (And tell me so!)

For a good while (and even now at times), I would feel frustrated or angry that she did not listened to me at the onset (and not caused the hurt to x, y and z, including myself). Now I just kind of relate it to the fact that she is making her mind through experimentations. My opinion is but one peck in the system. Two or more other people's opinions reinforcing the same thing have a way to add up weight to the idea, and eventually, she'll come around and conclude the same thing. Why?... She just ends up validating what's validation-worth.

That maybe constitutes some good background reason why it makes sense for me to take my own breaks and live my own 'alive alone moments'. Than get back to her, 'How are you doing?'


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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2015, 12:22:13 AM »

Treat them like a slightly wild cat if you want to use an animal analogy
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 06:35:06 AM »

thought people might appreciate this on this thread Smiling (click to insert in post) BPD, Cats, and Relationship Patterns

BPD, Cats, and Relationship Patterns

Postby Meeb » Mon Jun 25, 2012 5:26 am -----

Cats, unlike dogs, are creatures for lonely people. In history, cats were popular with royalty and especially emperors (lonely at the top), who found it hard to connect with their subjects on a personal level because their subjects either wanted to use them or appease them. How does the cat attract lonely people? There's a subtle psychodynamic at play.

People who find themselves lonely often suffer from problems in relating to other people, be they avoidant, borderline, or any host of complexes and personality traits that lead to difficulty in relationships. Often these relationships take the form of the person perceiving that others pull away from them, don't understand them, etc. Here I want to examine how borderline personalities attract cats. The borderline personality has a dynamic in relationships of push and pull. They intensely involve themselves with people, idealizing them, loving them, then at the slightest trigger of their abandonment or rage problems, they sense rejection and push back just as intensely. Over time, they come to understand all relationships as having this push-pull dynamic and in their minds, perfectly normal relationships have a sense of push-pull to them that works in a subtler way, often in their thoughts and preemptive behaviors, misperceptions of other's intentions and behaviors, etc. which leads them to withdrawing from or longing for closeness, though having great difficulty achieving it. This is exactly the dynamic at play in such folklore characters as "the crazy cat lady" or the person who has a cat for each broken relationship.

Because cats, unlike dogs, are independent and (let us be honest) inherently selfish, adventurous, and lone creatures, they attract borderlines in several ways. First, the borderline finds a companion that is just like them, at least from the distance- a loner who seems independent but in all reality is totally dependent on its owner, which is seen in borderlines with their dependency traits on love and relationships but their frequent feelings of emptiness and loneliness that come from a sense of universal abandonment and unworthiness. This is not to say the cat is like this on any real level; rather, the cat's independence and lone character trigger a sense of commonality with the borderline, who fills in the rest of the characteristics in his or her attempt to idealize or find the "perfect companion". Borderlines are also drawn to cats for another important reason. The cat's behavior exactly mirrors and reaffirms (provides familiarity to) the borderline's understanding of relationships, which has been formed long since childhood neglect or abandonment and the string of pattern-like relationships that have occured from that point to the present. Because the cat is a selfish creature, who only comes when it needs something for itself, who rarely listens to orders (or let's just compare them to dogs for a moment), who wanders on its own and seeks pleasure and entertainment on its own (this is not to say all cats, but most of them), the borderline's dynamic with the cat resembles:

A. Borderline idealizes cat B. Borderline is abandoned by cat whenever cat acts selfishly C. Cat comes back for food/water/yarn :). Borderline gives intense affection to cat E. Cat goes away again
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 07:36:57 AM »

Oh this is great.

I think many people who don't have PD's like cats. Cats are easier to take care of than dogs, so they are a good pet for people who don't want the effort of caring for a dog, or who live in apartments without yards, and so on. I like cats.

However, cats and my H are on a whole different level. I've felt that whatever my H can't give to me in terms of his love and vulnerability, he has given to the cat. In a strange way, it feels as if the cat was the other woman, or I was. I used to joke that if he could actually have sex with the cat, he wouldn't need me ( he doesn't do that with the cat!), but even more, he holds the cat on a pedestal- and he would never rage or hurt the cat. The cat is the recepient of his constant love and care. Over the course of our marriage, I think the cat has gotten more affection than I have. We have had more than one cat, but just one at a time.

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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2015, 08:05:47 AM »

Brave sun,

I have felt that my H and my mom would take advice from anyone but me. There were a few times when someone would ask me to relay some advice to my H, and I'd say, no- you tell him. He won't hear it from me. However, he still considers advice carefully and who he gets it from.

My mother, who is more symptomatic, will take advice from anyone but me- and I mean literally anyone.

When my parents got older, we brought up the subject of retirement communities and I spent some time researching and visiting them. They rejected all my suggestions, but when a neighbor spoke of one that I mentioned that a relative was in, suddenly that one was "wonderful".

I think they see advice from me as invalidating to them. The sad part is that, since I am close to them, I care about them and would have their interest in mind, more than a stranger might.
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2015, 08:24:11 AM »

I think there is another reason that pwBPD get along with cats very well.

According to this long and excellent essay on boundaries, most cats have great Boundary skills.

And to have a good r/s with a pwBPD (who has very very very bad boundary skills), you need to have good boundary skills. Thus the cat is a great companion for them.

In my marriage, both I and my wife get along very well with cats, and lived with one who was very dear to us for 18 years. I grew up with cats, and always loved them. Now I'm seeing one new aspect--I'm sure I enjoyed relating to a critter with good boundary skills--mine were not nearly as good then as they are now... .and even now I notice that it is so much EASIER to be around people who do have good boundaries... .just like most cats I've known!

The truly ironic thing is that my wife is currently staying in a house with a somewhat boundary-busting cat! (As cats go, at least)
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2015, 08:53:07 AM »

I also think it is because the cat can't talk- no pressure to have any discussions and also, the cat can't say anything that triggers him.

With the cat in the house all the time, the cat can't find another cat lover, so no fear that the cat will cheat.

Also, the cat doesn't need a lot of care and attention, so he doesn't have to make effort all the time.
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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2015, 10:10:39 AM »

Yes, BraveSun, I know exactly what you mean. Often I can suggest something and my information and advice is totally disregarded, yet someone else can say the exact same thing and he listens and takes their advice.  

Regarding cats, my exBPDh was very tuned into cats and most animals, just not people. I take exception to cats being characterized as selfish creatures and distant. Yes, many can be exactly that way if they're not understood, but if you have a close relationship with them, they are eager to please, can learn to do tricks, are extremely affectionate and very loyal.

My current BPDh regularly feels rejected by our cats because he expects them to respond to his overtures of affection in a way that is comfortable to him and on his own timetable, rather than tuning into what the cat actually wants and needs.

In my experience, dogs are much more tolerant of people with a lack of emotional intelligence than cats.

Cats, if understood, seek you out. One just jumped into my lap now.
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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2015, 10:16:35 AM »

Then cats understand my H better than I do  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2015, 10:47:37 AM »

Grey Kitty, I think you've hit the nail on the head about cats having good boundaries. They don't suffer fools, that's for sure. While a dog might allow abuse (and then apologize afterwards for it's part), a cat would never tolerate it (except perhaps from a young child and I think intent is something cats take into consideration). There is a greater awareness nowadays that all creatures have sentience and are aware of subtle communication.

When you have a close relationship with them, horses can read your thoughts and respond to them. Likewise I think pwBPD can pick up subtle cues that we might not realize we're communicating. However, pwBPD are so sensitized to criticism, that they will often overgeneralize and assume something is a criticism of them, when whatever we're experiencing has nothing to do with them--there's that narcissistic wound that emerges to make everything all about them all the time.

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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2015, 11:25:41 AM »

I think you're correct about people with BPD being able to pick up on moods. So can children of pw BPD's- they learn to pick up on the subtle changes before someone dysregulates as a way of survival. I swear I can read my mother's eyes, and the slight color changes in her face as this happens. I can see it in my H as well. I didn't connect the two ironically, because when I do this, I am not conscious of it, but I begin to get anxious. Now, I know what that is.

I was the perfect partner for my H, because I could modify my behavior to soothe his emotions, and neither of us was aware that this was going on. However, once he dysregulates, I become very anxious. He can pick up on that and it makes him act out more. My T has been trying to advise me on how to stay calm. It is difficult because as a child, that meant I was in big trouble with mom and so it is almost a reflex that I get fearful.

My H senses fear, which is triggering to him. He sees it as weakness, something that is a part of him that he rejects. He attacks it ( verbally) much like an animal at these times.

Yes, cats have boundaries and it is me who has become more cat-like over the years. I think when we were first married I was more like a dog, forgiving, coming back with a happy wagging tail, only to get emotionally" kicked " again. Now I have better boudaries and a cool detached demeanor at home- but I am still more apt to trigger that narcisstic wound than the cat.
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2015, 01:12:27 PM »

I think you're correct about people with BPD being able to pick up on moods. So can children of pw BPD's- they learn to pick up on the subtle changes before someone dysregulates as a way of survival. I swear I can read my mother's eyes, and the slight color changes in her face as this happens. I can see it in my H as well. I didn't connect the two ironically, because when I do this, I am not conscious of it, but I begin to get anxious. Now, I know what that is.

I was the perfect partner for my H, because I could modify my behavior to soothe his emotions, and neither of us was aware that this was going on. However, once he dysregulates, I become very anxious. He can pick up on that and it makes him act out more. My T has been trying to advise me on how to stay calm. It is difficult because as a child, that meant I was in big trouble with mom and so it is almost a reflex that I get fearful.

My H senses fear, which is triggering to him. He sees it as weakness, something that is a part of him that he rejects. He attacks it ( verbally) much like an animal at these times.

Yes, cats have boundaries and it is me who has become more cat-like over the years. I think when we were first married I was more like a dog, forgiving, coming back with a happy wagging tail, only to get emotionally" kicked " again. Now I have better boudaries and a cool detached demeanor at home- but I am still more apt to trigger that narcisstic wound than the cat.

Notwendy, I know exactly what you mean about being able to sense a coming dysregulation and going into a state of anxiety. I was chronically anxious as a child, and then embarrassed and humiliated by feeling this way. Now I realize, is it any wonder for a child to feel like that when they have a BPD mother?

Lately I have been catching myself being anxious for no good reason in social settings. I don't think I'm suddenly becoming more anxious; I'm rather becoming aware of it more frequently. When I do notice it, I start taking deep belly breaths and after I do this six or seven times, I forget all about being anxious. When anxiety is a lifelong habit, it turns into an ambient state and unless it becomes intense, I typically wasn't aware of it. Now I am and I have a way of doing something effective about it. I do that consciously when I'm riding my horses and they get nervous about something. I breathe deeply into my abdomen and if no one is nearby to hear me doing this, I do what is referred to as "ocean breath," where I inhale and exhale through my nose, making a sound like ocean waves. www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ujjayi_breath Those of you who do yoga know this practice. It really takes anxiety away fast and if you don't want to be noisy, you can do it without making the sound and it still helps.

Yes, I think that cats can be our mentors for boundaries, in particular for learning how to be unconcerned about someone else's transient emotional state and instead just get the hell out of their space.





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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2015, 01:38:32 PM »

I forgot to add, when I do ocean breath with the horses, it helps to calm them down too. Perhaps it also works on pwBPD.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2015, 01:55:08 PM »

Lol, I will have to try that. We only have the cat, but I think it must be comforting to have animals around to relate to. Yes, having a parent with BPD is like the perfect training ground for being dysfunctional. I feel fortunate that my H never  raged at our kids or treated them poorly. He would do fun stuff with them, but had little interest in the hands on aspect of raising them, so I have had many opportunities to validate them, respect their boundaries, and hopefully give them a better chance at emotional health. Protecting them has been my a priority for me.
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2015, 06:26:42 PM »

Remove pressure and expectations, and leave them choice and roll with it.

You will be surprised they will often choose what they would otherwise have resisted

I'm just now realizing how bossy I am. I hadn't really seen it that way before--I just categorized it as "being efficient." But it's definitely a part of being OCD and somewhat narcissistic--in that I think the way I do things is the best and that my husband should conform to that.

I'm lightening up on the conforming part, but I still think my way is best. 
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2015, 08:05:22 PM »

I'm just now realizing how bossy I am. I hadn't really seen it that way before--I just categorized it as "being efficient."

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Awesome to notice how the "efficient" way of doing things makes your life a lot more of a mess and changing your strategy accordingly!

Still a hard thing to change even when you notice... .at least for me!

Excerpt
... .but I still think my way is best. 

Of course. If you thought another way was better, you would start doing that. 
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