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Author Topic: New Beginnings 5 with Boundaries...  (Read 708 times)
MaroonLiquid
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« on: February 13, 2015, 08:47:07 AM »

Here is my previous thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=270663.msg12575663#new

Time for more radical acceptance of who she is and how she is.  I think you just said you want a r/s with the person she isn't yet, but might be someday, maybe, perhaps... .that option is not on the table today.

I agree with this statement.  I feel I have radically accepted who she is or I wouldn't still be here.  Or maybe I'm a glutton for punishment and should have left her to her own poopy diaper.  But seriously, there is a fine line, and trying hard to find that.  I have grown quite a bit internally as far as letting her live her choices and therefore her consequences.  I don't enable her anywhere near what I used to, if at all anymore.



It probably won't be on the table for you in 2015.

     Why do you think this?  Not saying you aren't right, but trying to understand your thought process... .



Another question for you... .as I understand it, you are like a father to her kids... .without either legal responsibility or legal rights. Or any such things are limited, and would need to be proved in court, which would probably be a tough battle for you.

     Yes it would be a money pit I'm afraid and where I live, they wouldn't give me those rights.  I would have to adopt them.  There was a time when I wanted to, but glad I didn't with the current situation.  I would have had child support on 6 kids instead of just 3. 



Do you think that staying separated but legally married to her (i.e. avoiding the trigger of filing divorce papers) will give you more contact with her kids? Or is that pretty close to zero by now already?

     I do think staying separated would give me more time with the kids as I have no legal right to them.  When my wife is speaking to me, I see and spend time with the kids.  I would say that time spent "as a family" in the last few months is up to about 50%.  For every week we speak, there is a week we don't.  It was up from one week speaking to 6 weeks we didn't or so.  I've noticed her pattern now.  When it is time for an event with the kids (track meet yesterday for her youngest, volleyball games, choir concerts, etc) where she will see people who have been her support system (obviously based on her distorted version of truth), I believe she looks for a reason to dysregulate so she doesn't have to explain herself (that was her excuse at Christmas for having me blocked on Facebook and not including me with things).  I will take her at her word.  That does tell me she knows she lied and is ashamed but not enough to make it right. 



The reason I ask is this... .your actions might be a little different if your goal is to minimize conflict with her and see her kids, than if your goal is to restore the marriage. Not a big difference--You need good boundaries either way!

     My goal is multifaceted.  First, my ultimate goal is to restore the marriage.  Second, I want to see the kids and finally, I want to minimize conflict with her.  I feel I have minimized conflict on my part  as much as I could over the last seven months.  There will be times that creating boundaries will be an issue and I understand that.  I also know there will be things that trigger her abandonment and stuff.  But like I told her the other day, I didn't ask for this separation, nor did I want it.  She is the one that still creates conflict and I can't change that.  I can only worry about me.

     I think I have come to a decision regarding a boundary with her going forward once she cycles out of this silent treatment she is in.  I'm not sure she'll take it well, but I can't help that.  Yesterday, when I asked her to send me a picture of our insurance card (that I pay for) as I needed some info off of it, she completely ignored me, or had me blocked.  Either way, I provide that insurance that she benefits greatly from and realized, that is another way she gets the benefits of a marriage without any of the responsibility.  I asked myself about other ways where I do that for her, and a big one was physical intamacy and making love.  We have always been a very physical couple.  Sex has always been a healthy part of our relationship (3-6 times per week on average) and she was always a very giving lover.  I realized yesterday, that because I love doing that with her, I have been there when she wanted her needs met.  I haven't held back in that area because I didn't want to trigger anything with her nor did I want her to feel as if I didn't want her or was seeing someone else.   The last few times we have had sex, I have noticed some issues with me.  I have NEVER HAD ISSUES. .  Maybe too much information, but I am making that clear.  She hasn't commented on it, but I know my body.  I think it's because, deep down, I know that it's more about filling her needs than it is mine, therefore, the excitement of the act that was always there with her is not present at the moment.  I have come to the conclusion that my issues stem from feeling like I'm being used in that area at the moment. 

     With that said, I have decided to cut off physical intimacy with her until she/we are in counseling and working towards rebuilding a healthy marriage.  She may not like that (what's new), may accuse me of things (been there and done that), but I have trouble giving myself in that area when she is only thinking of herself. 

     When I talk to her about it, I will just say, "Wife, I have been doing some thinking.  Making love to you is and always has been a very big part of our relationship and is extremely fulfilling.  I have continued the physical part of our relationship with you while we have been separated because you are my wife, I love you and have the desire to fulfill your needs.  I'm at a point now where I can't continue to do it when things between us are in such limbo.  It's confusing for me when for two to three weeks we are spending time together, acting like a couple behind closed doors, but in a public forum (facebook, kids events, etc.), I am a hidden entity.  When we married, we spoke the vow, "Forsaking all others", but it seems to me that "others" and what they think have become priority number one to you.  The other night when I took you and DD12 to dinner for her choir celebration, someone commented to me that you posted a picture of her at the restaurant on Facebook and said, "The two of you were celebrating."  After paying for that dinner, I have to say, that hurt and it's not the first time it's happened.  I don't hide to other people when I'm with you regardless of what they think or say and I expect the same thing from the woman I'm married to.  You are misrepresenting yourself and our relationship to people.  You have told me before that you don't want to explain yourself to those people about why they think you are doing one thing, but actually doing something different.  Restoring ourselves, our marriage and family should be what matters and not what others think.  Being physically intimate with you is an act of love for me, extremely important, and about fulfilling those desires in you/us.  I want to continue to spend time with you and the kids, but I have made a decision regarding being intimate with you.  I have decided that I can't continue that part of our relationship until we are in counseling on a regular basis and our marriage becomes a priority for you again."

     I think that's a fair boundary.  It will be hard to stick to it!  What do you think?
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2015, 09:27:38 AM »

It probably won't be on the table for you in 2015.

    Why do you think this?  Not saying you aren't right, but trying to understand your thought process... .

Because that kind of growth is a long slow process, with two steps forward and one step back.

It was probably a year between when I started really firm consistent boundaries against verbal abuse with my wife and when she finished enough growth on her part to not eve TRY to do it anymore. Many members here have a pwBPD who has spent years... .and counting where the abuse is prevented by boundaries, but the tendency/desire is still there.

And my wife still isn't there for me as the kind of partner I want, despite a lot more growth beyond that point.

That's why I'm guessing it won't happen in the next 11 months.




I'm going to suggest you NOT talk to your wife about boundaries around sex.

Absolutely not now, as you don't sound clear on your goals yet.

Remember--you do NOT have to announce a boundary before you enforce it. In your situation, it seems far wiser to simply not initiate sex, and not accept it if she initiates.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2015, 09:41:30 AM »

It probably won't be on the table for you in 2015.

    Why do you think this?  Not saying you aren't right, but trying to understand your thought process... .

Because that kind of growth is a long slow process, with two steps forward and one step back.

It was probably a year between when I started really firm consistent boundaries against verbal abuse with my wife and when she finished enough growth on her part to not eve TRY to do it anymore. Many members here have a pwBPD who has spent years... .and counting where the abuse is prevented by boundaries, but the tendency/desire is still there.

And my wife still isn't there for me as the kind of partner I want, despite a lot more growth beyond that point.

That's why I'm guessing it won't happen in the next 11 months.




I'm going to suggest you NOT talk to your wife about boundaries around sex.

Absolutely not now, as you don't sound clear on your goals yet.

Remember--you do NOT have to announce a boundary before you enforce it. In your situation, it seems far wiser to simply not initiate sex, and not accept it if she initiates.

I am clear on wanting to restore my marriage.  Is that really not clear? 

Also, she is going to ask me why if I don't initiate nor accept sex.  Why should I not tell her about it?  I feel if I was open with her, she would understand and not go to a "bad place" mentally, but that is reasonable, and this illness isn't reasonable... .
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2015, 09:50:53 AM »

Now I'm going to dig into the meat of your reply... .you have some really tough choices to make, and I think you will be a lot happier when you make them. [cross-posted]

You are like a father to her kids... .without either legal responsibility or legal rights.

    Yes it would be a money pit I'm afraid and where I live, they wouldn't give me those rights.  I would have to adopt them.

I think the rights and the responsibilities of being a parent go together, and that is probably as it should be. You cannot get the rights without accepting the responsibilities. From a legal point of view, you don't have either... .and will have quite a battle to get them.

You have to decide who you want to look in the mirror and see in the morning--Do you want to see a guy who did everything he possibly could to fight for this, was willing to pay whatever it cost him? I cannot answer that for you. I also cannot say whether you will win or lose that fight.

Excerpt
The other night when I took you and DD12 to dinner for her choir celebration, someone commented to me that you posted a picture of her at the restaurant on Facebook and said, "The two of you were celebrating."  After paying for that dinner, I have to say, that hurt and it's not the first time it's happened.

If your goal is to be in DD12's life, then putting up with your contributions to that being hidden on facebook is a price you can cheerfully pay. Just like you cheerfully paid the bill that night. (More radical acceptance)

Excerpt
The reason I ask is this... .your actions might be a little different if your goal is to minimize conflict with her and see her kids, than if your goal is to restore the marriage.

    My goal is multifaceted.  First, my ultimate goal is to restore the marriage.  Second, I want to see the kids and finally, I want to minimize conflict with her.

First off, please forget minimizing conflict. Don't let her create conflict out of nothing, and don't create unneeded conflict. And accept that there will be conflict, and that she will continue working hard to create more for a long time. You're doing pretty well there.

Second, what does restore your marriage really mean? Your marriage probably never was a healthy marriage of two equal parties respecting each other, so going "back" to that is completely unrealistic.

Let me propose some clearer goals seem achievable in 2015, with a lot of work.



  • Moving back in with her and resuming a blended family life with her kids and your kids together, without verbal/emotional abuse, mostly due to your own boundary enforcement.


  • Resuming a sex life with her where you meet her needs very well, not expecting her to have much capacity to be aware of yours.


  • Getting her into some sort of treatment/therapy.




You sound like you want a level of emotional intimacy and connection in your marriage that she is not capable of providing. You may have to give up on getting ALL of that in an intimate relationship with a woman for the years while these children are growing up.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2015, 09:55:34 AM »

Also, she is going to ask me why if I don't initiate nor accept sex.  Why should I not tell her about it?  I feel if I was open with her, she would understand and not go to a "bad place" mentally, but that is reasonable, and this illness isn't reasonable... .

My answer is simple: "Nothing good will come of this."

You sound like you need the boundary for yourself. Enforce it.

If she asks why, you can truthfully say "I don't feel like it tonight."

Can you give me ONE possible good outcome of being open about this with her? (Besides her being pissed enough not to ask you about sex for a few weeks!)
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2015, 12:04:32 PM »

My goal is to move back in with my wife and family.  I want to be a family.  Not without her getting treatment.  That won't do either of us any good.  Every time it's time to make an appointment, she finds a new reason to dysregulate.  I'm tired of that too!

I've always wanted the rights and responsibilities for her children.  I never wavered off of that.  Their mom is to blame for me not.  Not me.  We talked about it a bunch over the years.  Fighting for it at this point when one will be 18 in a few months and one will be 17 to me is not money well spent.  In fact, it may take longer to do it than their birthdays.  I can be there for the older two without that.  

Now, I have to ask, why do I have to put up with behavior that I find inappropriate for a married couple that goes against my values?  I'm supposed to "suck it up" and live with it?  Isn't that giving into her illness and walking on eggshells?  To me, that is saying, ":)on't worry honey, you don't need to change.  You can do whatever it is the hell you want to and I'm going to take it."  I'm not trying to create more issues, but at the same time, if she doesn't know where my boundaries are, how can she stay inside them?  Me saying, "I don't feel like it tonight." would be a huge red flag for her and nothing good will come of that either.  She knows that is important to me.  I know I can't help what triggers her, but not being truthful seems counterproductive.

She emailed me (responded to a team email I sent out) a few minutes ago and asked me for a form for softball.  I guess she has my texts blocked or she would have had no problem texting me.  I just responded with, "Here is the form."  I so bad wanted to say, "When I needed something from you, you ignored it, but then when you needed something, I actually respond, so eff off".   Smiling (click to insert in post).   That's not me.  I don't play those silly games.  I have a hard time wrapping my head around her not wanting to get help.  She has to know she is the one making things more difficult.  Not me.  What happened to getting through the "black and white" issues and seeing what's there with us?  I guess when you are held responsible for your choices and that hasn't happened in years, I guess that would make anyone nuts.  It's horrible that I made her be responsible for her own car note.  Funny how the tables have turned since last week.  Another temper tantrum.  

I bought her a card for Valentine's Day.  Am I a sucker for doing that?

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2015, 12:59:23 PM »

I've always wanted the rights and responsibilities for her children... .Fighting for it at this point when one will be 18 in a few months and one will be 17 to me is not money well spent.

Sounds like you are at peace with what you have done there. So continue being there for the kids in any way you can.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
Now, I have to ask, why do I have to put up with behavior that I find inappropriate for a married couple that goes against my values?  I'm supposed to "suck it up" and live with it?  Isn't that giving into her illness and walking on eggshells?  To me, that is saying, ":)on't worry honey, you don't need to change.  You can do whatever it is the hell you want to and I'm going to take it."  

That's where she's at today. That's what you can go back to today. And you get to choose what it means to you, whether you feel like you are walking on eggshells or whether you feel like you are choosing to live in a way that works for you.

I'm not telling you you should put up with it. I'm asking you if you want to.

Because she's not offering anything like this to you:

Excerpt
My goal is to move back in with my wife and family.  I want to be a family.  Not without her getting treatment.

Excerpt
I'm not trying to create more issues, but at the same time, if she doesn't know where my boundaries are, how can she stay inside them?  Me saying, "I don't feel like it tonight." would be a huge red flag for her and nothing good will come of that either.  She knows that is important to me.  I know I can't help what triggers her, but not being truthful seems counterproductive.

"I don't feel comfortable having sex with you now" is truthful. And difficult to hear.

"I don't feel comfortable having sex with you now because ... ." is truthful. And difficult to hear. And invalidating.

I get how you feel, and why you want to say it. However I see the outcome from the second version as far worse for you.

Excerpt
I bought her a card for Valentine's Day.  Am I a sucker for doing that?

I think you are living according to your values when you do that. It is a kind gesture. If you expect her to respond positively, you are probably a sucker.
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PeppermintTea
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« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2015, 04:27:04 PM »

Hi MaroonLiquid,

I've been thinking about this conversation all evening and hope you are OK with me giving you my opinion. I think Grey Kitty has raised good, clear points for consideration.

Its hard to interpret the written word sometimes so may be totally off the mark here but I sense that you're very angry and frustrated and it almost feels as though your boundaries are a way to punish or 'pay back' your wife.

My own experience is that being angry and wanting to punish is not a good place to set boundaries from. I have found myself being much more effective now having spent time really letting go and trying my best to accept my husband how he is not how I wish he would be.

When I was so angry and resentful of him my boundaries were coming over like punishments almost. And I felt bad too. Anger and resentment are toxic. Maybe your wife feels this and pushes back from it eg avoiding therapy etc.

Your wife is not able to be the person you want her to be right now. Can you still come to her as her husband, accepting this and fitting her into your life as she is now?

Radical acceptance is my path forward. You can make boundaries around behaviour but my experience is that they only begin to take effect when practised with acceptance, consistency and love. Being the emotional leader is hard but enables us to set the tone. Letting go of anger is an incredibly difficult first step.

Just my thoughts.

PT
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2015, 06:01:44 PM »

Hi MaroonLiquid,

I've been thinking about this conversation all evening and hope you are OK with me giving you my opinion. I think Grey Kitty has raised good, clear points for consideration.

Its hard to interpret the written word sometimes so may be totally off the mark here but I sense that you're very angry and frustrated and it almost feels as though your boundaries are a way to punish or 'pay back' your wife.

My own experience is that being angry and wanting to punish is not a good place to set boundaries from. I have found myself being much more effective now having spent time really letting go and trying my best to accept my husband how he is not how I wish he would be.

When I was so angry and resentful of him my boundaries were coming over like punishments almost. And I felt bad too. Anger and resentment are toxic. Maybe your wife feels this and pushes back from it eg avoiding therapy etc.

Your wife is not able to be the person you want her to be right now. Can you still come to her as her husband, accepting this and fitting her into your life as she is now?

Radical acceptance is my path forward. You can make boundaries around behaviour but my experience is that they only begin to take effect when practised with acceptance, consistency and love. Being the emotional leader is hard but enables us to set the tone. Letting go of anger is an incredibly difficult first step.

Just my thoughts.

PT

Thanks PT!  I would like anyone that has input to please give it.  I don't know if you've followed my story, but my wife has done some pretty horrible things (stealing my car, stealing my laptop which caused me to withdrawal from some classes that I was taking, wouldn't pay her own car note that was in our name, etc) since our separation seven months ago.  Yes, I love her and radically accept her anyway.  Has her making my life very difficult over the last seven months of separation made me angry?  Yes.  Has it caused some of the issues that I have surrounding intimacy at the moment? I believe so.  With that said, I do radically accept who she is now.  Honestly, I don't know who all would have stayed and wanted the marriage after what she has done.  Am I perfect?  Far from it.  I have made some "boundaries" during separation that was a way for me to try and get some control and a way to get my way.  I admit that.  I am truly in a different place now.  Do I get frustrated?  Oh hell yeah!  I vent here and with my support system, but don't bring it into my r/s with her.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't believe she is avoiding counseling because of me, it's because she doesn't want to deal with herself and what she has done.  I'm not perfect, I know that.  But the things she has done to me, I would have never thought of doing to her or anyone else.  I want nothing more than for her to be in T getting help.  Maybe on some level she does know I'm angry about what she has done and what has transpired.  i can't change that for her.  She has to start taking some responsibility.  I come to her all the time as her husband without any expectations (taking care of her after surgery, when she's sick, etc), fit her into my life, but yet booting me out of hers when it comes time to do the right thing.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2015, 07:27:31 PM »

Sounds like there's some giving to get going on.  You've done a lot for her, Maroon, no doubt about it.  You've put up with a lot, too

Having expectations of any kind that the nice things you're doing for her and putting up with the things that you don't appreciate, will in turn create change for the better, might very well leave you feeling disappointed.  She is who she is.  She's not that future person, the one who appreciates your efforts the way you'd like her to show it.  Accepting that this is who she is, will set you free in a sense... .  Accepting her as she is, is what will give you the space to make sound decisions.  To give you the freedom to face all of this from an honest standpoint and letting her know just how you feel about it.

She isn't going to jump into therapy and change because you took her and your daughter out to dinner or because you took care of her while she was sick.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't have done those things, just that they're not going to make her appreciate you any more.  Sounds like those might be things that she "expects" you to do anyway.

Give what you're willing to give freely, no expectations.  And get your own insurance card! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)







 

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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2015, 11:29:45 PM »

So my wife brought our daughter to practice at the end (she got the times mixed up) and my daughter and I went up to say hello.  She spologized for being late and I said, "It happens, no problem."  I went to hand her the Valentines Day card I bought her and she said, "I don't want it."  I said, "ok, have a good evening."  She said, "ok bye" and she left.  Walking away, my daughter said, "Why did she not accept that?  Is she mad at you?".  I told her that what she is upset about may not even be about me.  She went, "Wow... ."  I was petrified, honestly, that she did that in front of our daughters and her daughters friend.  I didn't expect her to give anything in return, but never expected her to rudely and completely blow me off like that.  Oh well... .
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2015, 02:05:43 AM »

I think 123phoebe makes a good point. It sounds as though you have expectations that if you do x she 'should do' y. She won't do y.

Did you want to give the card to make yourself feel good or to make her feel good? Her not accepting it is bad grace but that's her at the moment. Might have been better to give it somewhere nobody else was around. Or just post it to her.

It sounds as though you would like her to be grateful for the things you do .

I wanted my husband to be grateful for a while too. Especially after he OD'd and left a goodbye note in our house while I was out with the girls then expected me to get him discharged back to my care, especially after he emptied my bank account and I had to work long hours to get us back on track  and especially after he trashed our house and I put it right even learning to tile and lay carpet... .

But he has never said thank you.

I accept he is a man capable of doing those things. He is also capable of being kind and thoughtful. He cares about me but he only knows how to express this appropriately since I've started setting the tone and setting boundaries without anger and resentment.

I accept how he is but he knows how I expect to be treated. The boundaries I have are clear:

If you want to be in the marriage be in therapy

Don't be aggressive/negative with me or the kids

Respect our things.

I control the money. Any spending gets OK's by me first

He may not want to do those things and if he decides he doesn't then the marriage will end. I will be sad but I will deal with it if it happens. Is your wife clear on your boundaries?

She may never accept your boundaries. What will you do then?

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123Phoebe
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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2015, 03:47:53 AM »

She may never accept your boundaries. What will you do then?

Maroon, nobody said it was easy coming to grips with reality over fantasy.  It seems as though our SO's will sometimes give us just enough to keep us wondering and hoping.  Do you feel your wife has done that by letting you take care of her when she was sick, for instance?

So my wife brought our daughter to practice at the end (she got the times mixed up) and my daughter and I went up to say hello.  She spologized for being late and I said, "It happens, no problem."  I went to hand her the Valentines Day card I bought her and she said, "I don't want it."  I said, "ok, have a good evening."  She said, "ok bye" and she left.  Walking away, my daughter said, "Why did she not accept that?  Is she mad at you?".  I told her that what she is upset about may not even be about me.  She went, "Wow... ."  I was petrified, honestly, that she did that in front of our daughters and her daughters friend.  I didn't expect her to give anything in return, but never expected her to rudely and completely blow me off like that.  Oh well... .

I'm a little surprised that you didn't see this coming.  Didn't she reject a Christmas present also, I think it was a bracelet?  She would've preferred the money it cost.

From what I've read, one of her boundaries seems to be that she will not accept personal gifts from you.   Can you respect that and stop pushing this sort of thing?

How does it feel to have your gifts rejected?  Therein lies some of the "reality" of your relationship.  You both stand separately on this front.

It hurts.  It hurts to be blown off in public.  It hurts having our love rejected.

Are you in love with the woman who turned down your Valentine card, or are you harboring fantasies for the woman who wouldn't dream of doing that sort of thing?  Hoping and praying that she will see the light?

Accepting people "as they are" can save us a lot of unnecessary heartache and confusion... .

Can you accept that this is the woman you are married to? 

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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2015, 08:10:32 AM »

I was gonna say something... .and 123Phoebe said it better than I would have.

So I saw something else here... .

Walking away, my daughter said, "Why did she not accept that?  Is she mad at you?".  I told her that what she is upset about may not even be about me.  She went, "Wow... ."  I was petrified, honestly, that she did that in front of our daughters and her daughters friend.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Good job of validating your daughter's concern/confusion. 'Tho I think your daughter is right--She *IS* mad at you. What you don't know is why... .and you are right there--her reason for being mad at you probably has nothing to do with you at all!

Do you think your daughter was satisfied with your answer?
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2015, 08:49:42 AM »

PT and Pheebs (watched too much Friends on Netflix lately  Smiling (click to insert in post))... .

To clear things up, at Christmas, she did accept the shoes I bought her, but not the expensive bracelet.  I gave her the card last night because I felt good doing it, and wanted the same for her.  She used to always be grateful and never really received anything from her ex on any occasion.  I always wanted to make occasions special for her.  I was fully aware going in that she might not take it.  I was surprised she didn't in front of the kids.  I do accept that that is how she is.  I also think she "can" be this way because I allow it on some level.  That's my issue I need to work on.  Do I want her to appreciate me what I have done?  Yes.  I realize she isn't well and obviously isn't capable of this stuff right now.  I truly believe that the deep seeded issue going on in her is that she doesn't want her kids to have anything that she didn't have, including a father.  She will sabotage a good man in order for them to have to rely solely on her.  It's very sad.  I believe she is also trying to punish me for making it without her.  She told me when she first split from me that I couldn't make it without her.  I have more than made it and actually come out better than her every month.  I think she thought I would come "crawling back" at some point like her ex husband who never worked.  She also saw my ex wife take advantage of me when I went through my first separation and divorce and because I wanted out so bad, I rolled over and didn't fight much.  Maybe on some level I did that for the first seven months, but now I don't.  I am actually making her responsible for herself.  I am going to start putting better boundaries in place.  I just don't know where to start sometimes.  I'm supposed to stay with our daughter next month for the weekend while she chaperones a trip for the older two.  Curious how that is going to go down.  Not even really sure I want to do it considering the circumstances.  She will probably "be nice" and try and pull me back in right before to get me to stay because she has no other options.

GK... .

I believe she is mad at me, but I think it's because she doesn't know who else to be mad at (when it should be herself).  I think she is mad that I finally put my foot down about the cars, trading in the Lexus, and then paying her own car note.  I think what really pissed her off now is that after trading in the Lexus and my deal being done, she didn't know that the credit union would only pay 90% on a used car.  She then was stuck trying to scramble coming up with a down payment or take the 16% interest loan.  She knew she couldn't take the Lexus back.  That's when she told me that she has to always clean up my messes.  She twisted in her mind that I screwed her, caused a mess, when in reality, she can't handle the fact that it is her mess that caused all of this.  She is dealing with the harsh reality of what she did.  I can't help that either.  When I give her a gift, I do it with the love I have for her and not to get anything in return.  I do think that it reminds her of what she has done and losing and therefore doesn't take them for the constant reminder.
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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2015, 12:20:46 PM »

My wife is texting me (twice) about her sons glove.  another way to not deal with the real issues... I haven't answered yet.  I'm out shopping
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2015, 12:53:07 PM »

I responded with, "I'm still looking for it."  She responded with, "Seriously?  This needs to be a priority!"  I didn't respond...
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2015, 01:30:49 PM »

My wife is texting me (twice) about her sons glove.  
I responded with, "I'm still looking for it."  She responded with, "Seriously?  This needs to be a priority!"  I didn't respond...


The Case of the Missing Glove has been going on for a while now.  If you can't find it, you can't find it.  

The end.
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2015, 05:24:51 PM »

My wife is texting me (twice) about her sons glove.  
I responded with, "I'm still looking for it."  She responded with, "Seriously?  This needs to be a priority!"  I didn't respond...


The Case of the Missing Glove has been going on for a while now.  If you can't find it, you can't find it.  

The end.

You would think.  It's obviously something else she can use as a diversion and to stay mad.  A baseball glove... .Yeah.  Way more important than her marriage to her husband. 
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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2015, 08:00:53 PM »

My wife is texting me (twice) about her sons glove.  
I responded with, "I'm still looking for it."  She responded with, "Seriously?  This needs to be a priority!"  I didn't respond...


The Case of the Missing Glove has been going on for a while now.  If you can't find it, you can't find it.  

The end.

You would think.  It's obviously something else she can use as a diversion and to stay mad.  A baseball glove... .Yeah.  Way more important than her marriage to her husband. 

Until it is found, she won't end it. You can.

Spend some time looking again everywhere you might have it... .(Your choice 5 minutes or 5 hours looking   )

And tell her "I looked everywhere, and it isn't here." Validate how hard it is on her son. And then refuse to bite on it ever again.


... .and no, this isn't "way more important than her husband" to her. This is exactly how she is treating her husband... .the one who is getting waaaaaay better with boundaries, but still has a little work to do there.

Keep at it man!
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« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2015, 07:53:32 AM »

The Case of the Missing Glove has been going on for a while now.  If you can't find it, you can't find it.  

The end.

You would think.  It's obviously something else she can use as a diversion and to stay mad.  A baseball glove... .Yeah.  Way more important than her marriage to her husband. 

Crisis and drama can be used as diversions for all kinds of things.  By attaching to it, we become willing participants, thereby co-creating and solidifying this dynamic.  Detaching with love, as GK suggested-- It sucks losing something important, therefore you've searched high and low, it's not at your place, if it happens to show up somewhere, you'll let her know; that's the best you can do.  Done.  What more is there to say?  That'll you're still looking?  That you'll continue to look?  Oh where oh where could the glove possibly be?  Wringing your hands anytime the topic comes up?  Irritated.  Fearful of when it will come up again?

"Have you found the glove yet?"

"No"

"I don't believe you even looked for it, if you had, you would've found it by now.  You don't even care!"

Silence.  LET IT GO.  Go about your life, knowing that you did all you could do, so there's no reason to attach to and be dragged around by her emotions over this. 

Give her space to figure out for herself how to handle the case of the missing glove.  Your job isn't to fret and analyze why she's doing what she's doing, it's to figure out and find ways to better deal with your own emotions.

Express yourself authentically.



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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2015, 12:38:58 PM »

Good advice GK and Pheebs!  I will do that.  She is very good at creating drama and diversions (funny because one of her sayings is, "We don't need the drama!", which during the last seven months has become irritating to me, even though I do my best not to show it, and keeps me on the defensive.  I think maybe she can pick up on that?  She knows how much I love her (tells me she knows) and want our r/s to work, and therefore can keep me "dancing".  I have to stop doing that dance.  At times, I feel like Marty McFly in Back To The Future III when Mad Dog Tannen was shooting at his feet in the saloon telling him to dance... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

In order for me to stop doing the dance, I haven't communicated with my wife since Saturday when she texted me asking for the glove.  I am going to start doing my best to detach from her diversions/dramas.  For the most part, I feel good about myself for doing it, feel good about the situation as it currently stands and at the same time uneasy.  

I feel good about myself in the sense that we each have our own cars (that we are responsible for) finally and I don't have that worry anymore.  How she got hers finalized, well, I'm not going to worry about it.  I will only do that if/when we do get back together.  Until then, not my problem.  I also feel good because she is starting to live with the consequences from her choices (her choosing to separate).  She made the statement last week to, "... .enjoy myself while she struggles with making it as a single parent!"  I did validate by saying that, "Neither of us wants her to live her life as a single parent."  As her husband, it is uncomfortable for me to sit and watch that she is struggling (emotionally and financially) knowing I can't rescue her.  That is my own issue.  I enabled most of it from the beginning of all this by continuing to pay for things that I shouldn't have.  

I always feel uneasy when she is giving me the silent treatment.  Yes, I did answer her text with, "I'm still looking for it.", and then when she responded with, "Seriously?  This needs to be a priority."  Maybe this isn't the full on silent treatment (since she texted me), but we are not communicating.  I'm trying to break the cycle, or at least curb it.  This time, it doesn't bother me as much.  I think it's because she didn't accept my Valentine's card Friday (which it didn't hurt hardly at all as I was prepared for it), but starting to think she likes shooting me down and it continues to give her control and further paint me as the bad guy in front of the kids.  I'm sure they think, "He must have done something really bad to not take a Valentine's card from her husband."  I went in to it with the right heart attitude knowing that before me, she never had good experiences with special occasions from a SO and wanted her to feel special.  I knew she probably hadn't gotten me anything, and just like at Christmas (even though she scrambled to buy me stuff) I didn't care.  Actually, what happened last week at dinner, posting on Facebook about celebrating with her daughter, and then giving me the silent treatment afterward hurt.  I've let that go and just trying to be lovingly detached.  Tired of the dance... .And tired of over-analyzing her behavior.  It is hard not to though... .
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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2015, 02:06:49 PM »

Good advice GK and Pheebs!  I will do that.  She is very good at creating drama and diversions (funny because one of her sayings is, "We don't need the drama!", which during the last seven months has become irritating to me, even though I do my best not to show it, and keeps me on the defensive.  I think maybe she can pick up on that?  She knows how much I love her (tells me she knows) and want our r/s to work, and therefore can keep me "dancing".  I have to stop doing that dance.  At times, I feel like Marty McFly in Back To The Future III when Mad Dog Tannen was shooting at his feet in the saloon telling him to dance... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

In order for me to stop doing the dance, I haven't communicated with my wife since Saturday when she texted me asking for the glove.  I am going to start doing my best to detach from her diversions/dramas.  For the most part, I feel good about myself for doing it, feel good about the situation as it currently stands and at the same time uneasy.  

I feel good about myself in the sense that we each have our own cars (that we are responsible for) finally and I don't have that worry anymore.  How she got hers finalized, well, I'm not going to worry about it.  I will only do that if/when we do get back together.  Until then, not my problem.  I also feel good because she is starting to live with the consequences from her choices (her choosing to separate).  She made the statement last week to, "... .enjoy myself while she struggles with making it as a single parent!"  I did validate by saying that, "Neither of us wants her to live her life as a single parent."  As her husband, it is uncomfortable for me to sit and watch that she is struggling (emotionally and financially) knowing I can't rescue her.  That is my own issue.  I enabled most of it from the beginning of all this by continuing to pay for things that I shouldn't have.  

I always feel uneasy when she is giving me the silent treatment.  Yes, I did answer her text with, "I'm still looking for it.", and then when she responded with, "Seriously?  This needs to be a priority."  Maybe this isn't the full on silent treatment (since she texted me), but we are not communicating.  I'm trying to break the cycle, or at least curb it.  This time, it doesn't bother me as much.  I think it's because she didn't accept my Valentine's card Friday (which it didn't hurt hardly at all as I was prepared for it), but starting to think she likes shooting me down and it continues to give her control and further paint me as the bad guy in front of the kids.  I'm sure they think, "He must have done something really bad to not take a Valentine's card from her husband."  I went in to it with the right heart attitude knowing that before me, she never had good experiences with special occasions from a SO and wanted her to feel special.  I knew she probably hadn't gotten me anything, and just like at Christmas (even though she scrambled to buy me stuff) I didn't care.  Actually, what happened last week at dinner, posting on Facebook about celebrating with her daughter, and then giving me the silent treatment afterward hurt.  I've let that go and just trying to be lovingly detached.  Tired of the dance... .And tired of over-analyzing her behavior.  It is hard not to though... .

Let's both detach together then.  My wife didn't even open my Vday card or gift, it is sitting on the shelf.  It was a slap in the face.  Bottom line is I need to stop pursuing her, it is giving her power and the more I do it, she sees me as weak and rages and acts unreasonable.  Wedding ring is off.  I'm doing my own thing and going to worry about me, period.  It doesn't mean I won't be there for her, it just means she is gonna have to navigate all of this hate and anger on her own, I'm out of it.  I can't take anymore. 
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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2015, 02:42:56 PM »

Good advice GK and Pheebs!  I will do that.  She is very good at creating drama and diversions (funny because one of her sayings is, "We don't need the drama!", which during the last seven months has become irritating to me, even though I do my best not to show it, and keeps me on the defensive.  I think maybe she can pick up on that?  She knows how much I love her (tells me she knows) and want our r/s to work, and therefore can keep me "dancing".  I have to stop doing that dance.  At times, I feel like Marty McFly in Back To The Future III when Mad Dog Tannen was shooting at his feet in the saloon telling him to dance... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

In order for me to stop doing the dance, I haven't communicated with my wife since Saturday when she texted me asking for the glove.  I am going to start doing my best to detach from her diversions/dramas.  For the most part, I feel good about myself for doing it, feel good about the situation as it currently stands and at the same time uneasy.  

I feel good about myself in the sense that we each have our own cars (that we are responsible for) finally and I don't have that worry anymore.  How she got hers finalized, well, I'm not going to worry about it.  I will only do that if/when we do get back together.  Until then, not my problem.  I also feel good because she is starting to live with the consequences from her choices (her choosing to separate).  She made the statement last week to, "... .enjoy myself while she struggles with making it as a single parent!"  I did validate by saying that, "Neither of us wants her to live her life as a single parent."  As her husband, it is uncomfortable for me to sit and watch that she is struggling (emotionally and financially) knowing I can't rescue her.  That is my own issue.  I enabled most of it from the beginning of all this by continuing to pay for things that I shouldn't have.  

I always feel uneasy when she is giving me the silent treatment.  Yes, I did answer her text with, "I'm still looking for it.", and then when she responded with, "Seriously?  This needs to be a priority."  Maybe this isn't the full on silent treatment (since she texted me), but we are not communicating.  I'm trying to break the cycle, or at least curb it.  This time, it doesn't bother me as much.  I think it's because she didn't accept my Valentine's card Friday (which it didn't hurt hardly at all as I was prepared for it), but starting to think she likes shooting me down and it continues to give her control and further paint me as the bad guy in front of the kids.  I'm sure they think, "He must have done something really bad to not take a Valentine's card from her husband."  I went in to it with the right heart attitude knowing that before me, she never had good experiences with special occasions from a SO and wanted her to feel special.  I knew she probably hadn't gotten me anything, and just like at Christmas (even though she scrambled to buy me stuff) I didn't care.  Actually, what happened last week at dinner, posting on Facebook about celebrating with her daughter, and then giving me the silent treatment afterward hurt.  I've let that go and just trying to be lovingly detached.  Tired of the dance... .And tired of over-analyzing her behavior.  It is hard not to though... .

Let's both detach together then.  My wife didn't even open my Vday card or gift, it is sitting on the shelf.  It was a slap in the face.  Bottom line is I need to stop pursuing her, it is giving her power and the more I do it, she sees me as weak and rages and acts unreasonable.  Wedding ring is off.  I'm doing my own thing and going to worry about me, period.  It doesn't mean I won't be there for her, it just means she is gonna have to navigate all of this hate and anger on her own, I'm out of it.  I can't take anymore.  

Sounds good to me.  I'm with you.  It's ridiculous, but whatever.  I am beginning to agree with you on the fact that by pursuing them, it gives them power, especially the more controlling/narcissistic they are/have to be to protect themselves.  At times, when I haven't given her that power, she contacts me with something, usually to try and get the power back.  At the first part of our separation, she would do things that she knew would get me in an emotional state (pulling the rug out from under me), and then finally when I would call her bluff, she would go on to something else.  My wife, at the beginning, called and said she wanted a divorce.  The first time I played into her crap (pleaded, begged), then when I called back and said, "You have the ability to make your own decision, but understand, you will have to live with that and I won't be responsible for it as I don't want it.  The choice is yours."  When I did that, she let it go.  when she tried it a couple of weeks later, I picked up on it and went straight into what I said previously.  Since then, no talk of divorce.  I realize she wants to keep us in turmoil, but she is also starting to realize I am not playing that game anymore.  Now that we have nothing to fight over (bills, cars, etc), she is trying to find the upper hand.  The only thing she has now is "silence" to punish me.   Smiling (click to insert in post)  I've been banished to her "outer darkness" for most of 7-1/2 months, what's another couple of days... .  Smiling (click to insert in post) Being cool (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2015, 09:22:06 PM »

So my wife posts a few minutes ago that she just worked out doing Tae Boxing and her motivation for the hard workout was "putting a face on the punching bag".  Why does that bother me?  Is it because I know it's about me?  Even then, why does that bother me?  That's not lovingly detaching is it?  I know it's part of her cycle, but man.  It must be exhausting being her and having to have it out for me to not have to deal with herself.  I didn't know I made her that miserable.  She treats me like I don't matter, so it's weird that she is so focused on me.    Smiling (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2015, 09:25:22 PM »

So my wife posts a few minutes ago that she just worked out doing Tae Boxing and her motivation for the hard workout was "putting a face on the punching bag".  Why does that bother me?  Is it because I know it's about me?  Even then, why does that bother me?  That's not lovingly detaching is it?  I know it's part of her cycle, but man.  It must be exhausting being her and having to have it out for me to not have to deal with herself.  I didn't know I made her that miserable.  She treats me like I don't matter, so it's weird that she is so focused on me.    Smiling (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

I've felt like I didn't matter to my wife for about 4-5 years.  It has always been that way, as if even the laundry is more important than me.  I see a lot of BPD spouses acting needy, that isn't my wife at all.  If this all about projection then, her comment was probably about herself or possibly one of her parents or abusers.  It is misguided to point it towards you.
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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2015, 09:40:27 PM »

Why do you follow her on facebook? [You can unfollow even if you don't want to unfriend her]

Does she share things that you enjoy like fun pix of her kids? Or is it just her mental disorder blatting out crap about you most of the time?


BTW... .you don't make her miserable. Only she can make herself miserable.

And she doesn't make you miserable. Only you can do that!
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« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2015, 10:01:07 PM »

Why do you follow her on facebook? [You can unfollow even if you don't want to unfriend her]

Does she share things that you enjoy like fun pix of her kids? Or is it just her mental disorder blatting out crap about you most of the time?


BTW... .you don't make her miserable. Only she can make herself miserable.

And she doesn't make you miserable. Only you can do that!

She has me blocked, so we aren't even friends on Facebook.  I can't see her posts unless someone tells me or I check through a "private" browser.  She doesn't share anything about the kids unless I'm with her and then but you wouldn't know I was there as she "can't" tag me because she has me blocked.  Most of her posts are her mental disorder blabbing about me crap.  Mutual friends of ours (who care about us both, talk to her regularly, want her to get help and us work it out) who I talk to regularly have commented to me about it and see through it.  They think it's unfortunate that she is struggling so bad and feel bad for her.  They counsel us both spiritually and know she is very confused.
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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2015, 05:55:26 AM »

So my wife posts a few minutes ago that she just worked out doing Tae Boxing and her motivation for the hard workout was "putting a face on the punching bag".  Why does that bother me?  Is it because I know it's about me?  Even then, why does that bother me?  That's not lovingly detaching is it?  I know it's part of her cycle, but man.  It must be exhausting being her and having to have it out for me to not have to deal with herself.  I didn't know I made her that miserable.  She treats me like I don't matter, so it's weird that she is so focused on me.    Smiling (click to insert in post) Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

Maroon, it's almost as if your relationship isn't with your wife, as a human being separate from you, it's with her disorder.  For a long time I had a relationship with what I felt were my guy's strange behaviors, too.  I was attached to those behaviors, which made our interactions tainted by them, because I couldn't let them go in my own brain.  And what I didn't know, I'd fill-in-the-blanks, so that they made sense in my mind.  My mind was playing tricks on me!  I wanted it to stop.  I wanted him to change so that my brain could relax.

The part I bolded, what happens in your own brain when it's rephrased to read: "I feel like I don't matter to her". 

That is taking the focus off of her, validating yourself, validating your own experience.  Allowing yourself to feel your truth.

If you feel like you don't matter to her, then does it make sense to keep tabs on what she's posting on FB?  Could you tell your friends that you don't want to know what she's posting on FB?  Does it enhance your life in anyway, allowing thoughts of what she might be thinking, to permeate your brain?

In what other ways could you be enriching your own life?  When thoughts go to her disordered behaviors, or FB, what's something different you could do?  Do it!

You've come a long way, keep on truckin'!

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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2015, 07:53:53 AM »

Maroon, it's almost as if your relationship isn't with your wife, as a human being separate from you, it's with her disorder. 

This is soo right.  When she comes around (after dysregulation), I pick up where we left off and never mention the past or what happened (but has stayed with me at times).  But then, BOOM!  Her disorder rears it's ugly head again, and we always make a little progress, but can't quite get to the counseling appointment. 

For a long time I had a relationship with what I felt were my guy's strange behaviors, too.  I was attached to those behaviors, which made our interactions tainted by them, because I couldn't let them go in my own brain.  And what I didn't know, I'd fill-in-the-blanks, so that they made sense in my mind.  My mind was playing tricks on me!  I wanted it to stop.  I wanted him to change so that my brain could relax.

So how were you able to move past it?  I think I do it to convince myself that she does love me so that I'll continue to stick around and be there when her dysregulation stops.

The part I bolded, what happens in your own brain when it's rephrased to read: "I feel like I don't matter to her". 

That is taking the focus off of her, validating yourself, validating your own experience.  Allowing yourself to feel your truth.

If you feel like you don't matter to her, then does it make sense to keep tabs on what she's posting on FB?  Could you tell your friends that you don't want to know what she's posting on FB?  Does it enhance your life in anyway, allowing thoughts of what she might be thinking, to permeate your brain?

I'm scared of completely letting go.  I'm scared if I do, she won't be there anymore.  It sucks to admit that, but that's how I feel.  I know that our daughter is on my softball team, so she has to be there, but it doesn't make that feeling go away.  it's my own unhealthiness. 

In what other ways could you be enriching your own life? 

That's a great question.  Sometimes I want to and do/don't, sometimes I just want to be alone, and sometimes I don't in case she calls or texts so that we can spend time together (which is stupid and she probably knows that).   

When thoughts go to her disordered behaviors, or FB, what's something different you could do?  Do it!

That's another good question.  I do coach softball, so that helps and is a great escape because when I'm coaching, everything else fades away.  I need to take a couple of classes this semester to apply for transfer so that I can do what I love.  That's hard because she encouraged me to go back to school and get my degree (my dream has always been to be a college football coach and graduate from a certain university), yet it's a constant reminder of where our relationship is at right now and I have been avoiding it.  However, I think it would be good for me to get those two classes done so that I can put in my transfer paperwork and finish up my education so that I can do what I love.

You've come a long way, keep on truckin'!

Thanks, sometimes it's hard to see it or feel that way.  Sometimes I tend to get down on myself and think of what I could have done differently.  Many people have said, "Why do you put up with it.  Tell her you don't want to see her till she gets help, and if she doesn't then file for divorce."  Everyone has an opinion, and frankly, I'm sick of them.

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