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Author Topic: New Beginnings 5 with Boundaries...  (Read 709 times)
MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2015, 12:35:44 PM »

So a moment ago on here, I read The Three Faces of Victim... .Wow was it eye opening.     I knew I was a rescuer, but wow.  My wife is the persecutor and describes her to a T as well... I am stepping off of the trianglular roller coaster today.  I actually did a couple of days ago, but after reading that, I can see where her anger and desire to punish come from.  Her anger is misdirected at me regarding her now being accountable for herself.  I do feel better after reading that and know that I should have stopped "rescuing/enabling" months ago and probably would have gotten over her extinction bursts a lot sooner.  In the article, it says, "As a result they are often secretly seething inside from a shame based wrath that ends up running their lives. SGPs, for survival sake, repress deep-seated feelings of worthlessness; they hide their pain behind a facade of indignant wrath and uncaring detachment."  It is obvious she is in a lot of pain, but I need to get it down deep that I can't fix it.  I do know it is part of her unhelathy cycle of behaviors which is helping.  You live and you learn.  I do take comfort in the fact that she says, "I know you love me." It helps knowing I can step away even when she is mad.  I also know there are times where she doesn't feel I love her, but I can't help that and know that isn't my issue either.  I realize that I have started to fall into the trap of, "After all I have done for you... ." and know that has been fueling some resentment/depression in me.  I was never like that until the last month or two.  Pheebs said it best when she said:

Maroon, it's almost as if your relationship isn't with your wife, as a human being separate from you, it's with her disorder. 

That was huge for me.  Honestly, I'm not sure what a r/s with my wife looks like at this point outside of her disorder because it seems so ingrained in her these days.  We get along great (perfect example was getting the car deals done even though that was touch and go for a bit, going to hear our daughter sing after, and then getting dinner to celebrate) and working together until her disorder rears its ugly head right before an appointment with a T or she decides that I'm to punish for something.  Examples of that are like the last few days when she blamed me for the "mess I created by getting in a wreck that wasn't my fault" (a.k.a. made her responsible for her own car note) and the credit union only agreeing to finance 90% of her vehicle.  It is 2 steps forward and 1 step back.  I accept that and it doesn't scare me, but I also accept that our r/s won't go anywhere unless she chooses to step off and get help too.  I'll be honest, I am fearful that she won't but won't let that control me... I will continue to do what is right regardless... .
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2015, 03:28:37 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Awesome that you saw your role in the triangulation. Seeing it will make stepping out soo much easier.

Be gentle with yourself about it... .she will work soo hard to yank you right back in, and you may be in there before you catch yourself and jump back out again!

Honestly, I'm not sure what a r/s with my wife looks like at this point outside of her disorder because it seems so ingrained in her these days.

The real person is both the one who paints you black, and the one who paints you white.

As you get less enmeshed and realize where you stop and she starts, you will better understand who she is.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #32 on: February 18, 2015, 09:52:34 AM »

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Awesome that you saw your role in the triangulation. Seeing it will make stepping out soo much easier.

Be gentle with yourself about it... .she will work soo hard to yank you right back in, and you may be in there before you catch yourself and jump back out again!

She is being eerily quiet right now (except on Facebook).  Of course she is probably thinking the same thing about me.   Smiling (click to insert in post)   It's uncomfortable, but I'm good actually.  Not thinking too much into anything.  Last night, she brought our daughter to softball practice and never got out of the car (it was cold).  I never went over and talked to her before or after which is very out of character for me.  I have always done that, which may be what she counts on.  The last three times, I haven't approached her at all.  Several weeks ago, she said something to me and that's what I'm doing.  She said that she doesn't want parents on the team to see her as "my wife" (even though my ex wife and my assistant coach's wife know better  ).  She also said she doesn't want me to say I love you as it is "uncomfortable for her at this point" (said that the day we were doing the vehicle stuff at the beginning of it).  The last "in person" communication we had was her rejecting my Valentine's Day card in front of the kids.  This is part of why I'm taking a big step back.  She needs to know that when she asks something of me, I'll do it.  If that is what she is asking, then I have to assume that is what she wants.  She also needs to see that rebuffing my advances over and over again eventually have their consequences.  She also sees I'm not wearing my wedding ring anymore.  I haven't texted her about anything since last Thursday.  The last text comunication we had was Saturday when she asked me about the glove.   I am treating her just like any of my other softball parents by only communicating in a team wide email with team stuff.  Nothing to only her.

The real person is both the one who paints you black, and the one who paints you white.

You aren't the first person who has told me that.  I have always seperated the two.  Maybe it's time I don't.

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123Phoebe
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« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2015, 12:47:05 PM »

For a long time I had a relationship with what I felt were my guy's strange behaviors, too.  I was attached to those behaviors, which made our interactions tainted by them, because I couldn't let them go in my own brain.  And what I didn't know, I'd fill-in-the-blanks, so that they made sense in my mind.  My mind was playing tricks on me!  I wanted it to stop.  I wanted him to change so that my brain could relax.

So how were you able to move past it?  I think I do it to convince myself that she does love me so that I'll continue to stick around and be there when her dysregulation stops.

I had to do a 180, perform mental gymnastics Smiling (click to insert in post)  Had to take the focus off of him and put in on myself. Catching my own thought processes and realizing how kookoo and negative some of those thoughts were  Noticing my body being all tense when there was no reason for it to be...  I had to switch it up.  When thoughts would go to what he might be thinking, I'd look out the window for a squirrel or a bird sighting to take my mind in a different direction.  I had it baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.  Totally obsessed with the guy.

It wasn't healthy.  I wasn't healthy and contributed to making our relationship unhealthy, too!

The real person is both the one who paints you black, and the one who paints you white.

You aren't the first person who has told me that.  I have always seperated the two.  Maybe it's time I don't.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I believe we can also be prone to seeing people, places and things through a black & white lens.

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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2015, 02:49:31 PM »

I had it baaaaaaaaaaaaaaad.  Totally obsessed with the guy.  It wasn't healthy.  I wasn't healthy and contributed to making our relationship unhealthy, too!

Yeah, I realize that is part of my issue disguised as caring.  Co-dependency obviously.  When we go no contact like this, after a few days I start to feel uneasy.  It's coming up this afternoon, but will just sit with it.  A part of me does get scared, everytime, that it's over, but inside I know it's not true.  I listen to the lie that if I don't contact her, she never will me.     That's a cycle within myself.

I believe we can also be prone to seeing people, places and things through a black & white lens.

Yep, and I tend to do that. Go to one end of the spectrum or the other based on my feeling in that moment.  My mom I think is BPD.  One person does one thing and "they have always been that way."   
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #35 on: February 18, 2015, 03:08:11 PM »

Yep, and I tend to do that. Go to one end of the spectrum or the other based on my feeling in that moment.  My mom I think is BPD.  One person does one thing and "they have always been that way."  

Is this a new realization? Or have you known it for a while?

You are seeing your rescuer role in the drama triangle with your wife now... .You may find you were taking that role from way farther back next.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #36 on: February 18, 2015, 03:21:33 PM »

Yep, and I tend to do that. Go to one end of the spectrum or the other based on my feeling in that moment.  My mom I think is BPD.  One person does one thing and "they have always been that way."  

Is this a new realization? Or have you known it for a while?

You are seeing your rescuer role in the drama triangle with your wife now... .You may find you were taking that role from way farther back next.

I have sensed it for a while.  She is way unhealthy, narcissistic, abused as a child with a father that slept around, a mother who didn't have much to do with her and very OCD... .

yes, I have played rescuer for a long time.  Always the peacemaker with family and such growing up.  Always putting others needs before my own.  My wife made the statement a couple of months ago, "You care more about our marriage than you do yourself."    :'(  
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2015, 03:28:21 PM »

My wife made the statement a couple of months ago, "You care more about our marriage than you do yourself."    :'(  

Wow. I bet she was right then too. They can be amazingly perceptive at times, can't they!

Do you feel like you still resemble that remark?
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2015, 03:51:06 PM »

My wife made the statement a couple of months ago, "You care more about our marriage than you do yourself."    :'(  

Wow. I bet she was right then too. They can be amazingly perceptive at times, can't they!

Do you feel like you still resemble that remark?

Yes, she was right.  And yes, they can be amazingly perceptive.  Now, I don't think it resembles me near as much, but I admit I still have work to do.  I still feel by doing what I'm doing at this moment, there is a possibility that I'll lose her.  I just go back to the place that she knows I love her.  Even if I do, I'll be okay.  I don't feel like that is anything she wants, just more that she has gotten always with whatever till now.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2015, 10:50:25 AM »

Day 7 of me not contacting her.  It's tough today for me (always hit a wall around day 6 or 7 of her silent treatment), but not overwhelming.  It is fear, and I can't live in that emotion.  A part of me wants to contact her, but a part of me doesn't.  I'm wanting to out of fear, but I realize it's not because I just want to.  Last week, I hit my breaking point of being mistreated.  First the dinner, then blaming me for the wreck (which wasn't my fault but blamed me and called it a mess she has to clean up after me once again), which in turn blames me for her having to come up with a down payment for another vehicle, and then not accepting the Valentine's Day card I got her in front of the kids.  I can't allow myself to be treated that way anymore, especially the kids seeing me be treated that way.  I love her very much, but it is wrong and unhealthy to allow.  I won't tolerate it anymore, and it's time she make some sort of effort towards me.  She hasn't had to because it's been me for 7 months that has made the attempts and effort.  Also, I'm not okay with her leading a "double life" (the one with me and the one she portrays on facebook).  I'm her husband, and if facebook friends and acquaintances are more important than me and our marriage, then she can have them.  I'm at the point I think where counseling will be required to be seeing each other in any capacity. 
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2015, 08:36:56 PM »

So my wife brought our daughter to batting practice this evening, and when it was over and we were leaving, I told our daughter that I loved her.  My wife then texted me and said our daughter didn't want me to say that I love her anymore.  I haven't responded as I don't know what to do or how to respond.  Technically she is my step daughter but I have never thought of her that way.  Thoughts?
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2015, 09:04:03 PM »

I see two obvious actions, and both of them sound really really bad to me:

1. Honor your wife's request. (Nothing good will come of giving in to this sort of parental alienation tactic... .but if you capitulate, she will just demand more!)

2. Discuss it with your wife. (I'm sure you know that already!)

I suppose I should ask you for a reality check--do you think there is ANY chance that this is actually your daughters idea? Or even something that your daughter said? I'm assuming that your wife either fabricated it or manipulated your daughter into saying something... .but I don't know your daughter.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2015, 09:32:11 PM »

I see two obvious actions, and both of them sound really really bad to me:

1. Honor your wife's request. (Nothing good will come of giving in to this sort of parental alienation tactic... .but if you capitulate, she will just demand more!)

2. Discuss it with your wife. (I'm sure you know that already!)

I suppose I should ask you for a reality check--do you think there is ANY chance that this is actually your daughters idea? Or even something that your daughter said? I'm assuming that your wife either fabricated it or manipulated your daughter into saying something... .but I don't know your daughter.

I believe it's definitely my wife's doings.  I think she's mad that I didn't say I love you to her and mad that I'm not communicating with her outside of softball communication.  I think she is trying to bait me because bad communication is better than none if that makes sense.
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2015, 09:38:37 PM »

Now she's asking me about the glove again.  Trying to bait me is all this is.  This is why I'm stepping back.  Can't ask how things are going and trying to have healthy communication, but instead trying to make me pay.   .
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #44 on: February 19, 2015, 09:56:01 PM »

And she keeps copying and pasting her texts because I won't answer her!  Extinction burst maybe?  

Since I didn't answer her, she posts to Facebook, "It's so hard being a single parent.  Trying to work through the anger, bitterness and feelings of abandonment leave me overwhelmed but I will not give up.  They are worth it."   .  
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2015, 08:02:37 AM »

After sleeping last night, I still feel very good about how I handled the situation with my wife last night.  I feel like it's a new day for me.  It is uncomfortable because I don't usually handle myself this way and stand up for what's healthy.  I am done being embroiled and pulled in to unhealthy ways of living and communicating.  I feel like I stood up for myself and stuck to a value of not living with everything being in her control, on her terms and being mistreated by her any longer.  She posts an article this morning on her Facebook about "stop regretting what you did a year ago", when I think that's exactly what she is going through.  She has more or less reduced her life with someone she loves, who loves her and her children to rubble.  She hates that I'm standing up for myself and not communicating with her in an unhealthy way.  It is sad that she hasn't figured out yet that all she would have to do is text with something nice to say, and I would gladly respond.  She obviously doesn't know how to handle the change in the dynamic... .
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2015, 11:30:39 AM »

My wife called and I answered.  She said she had texted me a few times about the glove and I didn't respond.  I said I've looked everywhere and can't find it.  She asked me where I looked and I told her.  I validated how that is going to affect our son and know that is was sentimental.  She made the comment, "If he meant as much to you as you say, you would have kept a better eye on it."  I didn't respond.  I told her the last place it could be I was going to look and would let her know.  She said to let her know and said I would in a few minutes.  After the phone call, I got this email:

ML:

I am drafting our divorce documents and would like to minimize any conflicts about our division of property.

Now that the vehicle situation has been resolved, the only joint debts that I am aware of are the IRS and Furniture Store. Is there anything else? How do you propose those be resolved?

Regarding the personal property in our respective homes, I would like the couch, bean bag and hope chest returned to me.

Besides the laptop, is there anything you want back?

ML's Wife

I may respond with, "As I've said previously, I will not discuss divorce with you."  She's done this before and I think she is out of control and trying to feel in control again.  I'm just trying to change the dynamics of communication... Thoughts?
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« Reply #47 on: February 20, 2015, 06:07:55 PM »

 

Instead of telling her you won't discuss divorce... .

Just don't discuss it... .

I think that would be more powerful... .


How did you handle the thing with your step daughter and saying I love you?

I'm thinking you keep saying it.

Might want to tell her that it is important to honestly express the emotions you have... vice "stuffing" them.

Or... .maybe simpler to just keep saying it... . Or tell her you love her too much to hush... .

I"ll keep thinking on this... .

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« Reply #48 on: February 20, 2015, 06:08:32 PM »

 

Hey... .

 

Divorce threats are tough... .hang in there!

We are rooting for you!

FF
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2015, 06:01:55 AM »

Maroon, this sounds really tough

There still seems to be a lot of, she's doing this, I think it means that, she says blah blah blah because she hates that I'm doing such and such... .

Have you thought about the possibility that she really does want to divorce?  What do her actions tell you? Will you be blindsided if one day you're served with divorce papers?

Having horrible communication skills doesn't mean that her feelings aren't real.  It also doesn't mean that her feelings won't change on a dime, either.  I'm more concerned with your thoughts and feelings, to be honest.

Divorcing my ex or staying with my partner, I had to get to a point that I could survive anything; build up my own internal reservoir.  Trust in myself to take care of me.

Are you discussing this with a therapist?  With a lawyer?  Getting your ducks in a row in the event of... .

Have you asked her if divorce is what she really wants?  Are you emotionally prepared to really listen to and hear her answer, whatever it might be?  To accept and validate her feelings?  Not what you think her feelings might be or what you'd like for them to be, but what they are and how they affect you and your future?  Then being able to express your feelings to her?

You've been separated for a long time now.  What improvements are you seeing, feeling, experiencing?

Matters of the heart is serious business, it's not a game of chess... .

What do you want?  Is it achievable without her cooperation?

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« Reply #50 on: February 22, 2015, 08:13:05 AM »

What do you want?  Is it achievable without her cooperation?

Boy... .those are big questions.

Questions that I am wrestling with as well. 

One nuance that I think needs to be added in here... .is that Maroon is dealing with someone that expresses that their feelings are very different... .and it is hard to see "why" those feelings change.

So... we'll never know exactly how she feels.  But... one day she will be talking about divorce... .and next day say something completely different.

And that... is certainly the pickle (do they use that term in Softball Maroon?... .yep... .tried to use sports term for you!) that I believe Maroon finds himself in... .and is the one I am in.

I've become hardened or immune to divorce threats... .I can guarantee you there is zero chance that if my wife came to me... .and expressed her feelings that she wanted a divorce... .that I would take it seriously.  Zero chance...

There is a consequence to crying wolf... .

123Phoebe point about lets get more into Maroon's feelings... .not his feelings about why his wife does this and that... .is right on target.  I get into that thinking as well... .speculating about why my wife chooses to sleep in other rooms... .move children into the house without asking... .or other whacky things.

And... .ultimately... .I'm not sure how productive that thinking has been. 
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« Reply #51 on: February 22, 2015, 07:50:49 PM »

Ok, so here is an update.  Friday, after the "divorce email" Friday that I didn't answer, we had a softball scrimmage that night.  My mom said that she was showing up to watch the girls and I told her that if she was going to show up, please do not cause any trouble with my wife.  While I was on the field coaching, everything was fine, except for the fact that she sat next to my ex-wife and my wife sat alone at the end of the bleachers by herself.  I knew that was going to cause some issues.  After, I was addressing the team and my mom decided to confront my wife away from where I was.  She basically told my wife that she needed to leave me alone and stop screwing with my head.  My wife told her she didn't know what she was talking about.  My mom told her to "cut the crap" and that "she knew everything".  My wife stormed over to me and told me that I better tell my mom to leave her alone Or she was going to report us.  I told her I would take care of it.  She stormed off and left.  I was pissed, mortified and not happy.  

    About an hour later, my wife texts me and asked me if we could meet with no kids.  I said sure.  I met her and we talked for about 45 minutes.  She apologized about flying off the handle and that she shouldn't have.  I validated her being upset, that my mom was out of line, and that I was pissed too.  I told her that I wanted us to have healthy communication to rebuild things between us.  She told me that she wanted a divorce (again I felt she was baiting and mad that my mom was sitting next to my ex wife which is a betrayal to me too) and the reasons why.  I did say I was sorry that she felt that way and validated her feelings.  I told her I loved her and wanted to work through our issues.  She said she doesn't love me anymore.  Again, I stayed calm and validated that that is how she feels.  She then started slamming me with issues that she blames all on me, taking no responsibility, and for a moment, I started to defend myself.  When I caught it, I said, "I won't be baited."  She made the ridiculous comment that I had made no moves toward getting counseling and when I said, "What about the two appointments that I made and you didn't show up to either one?"  She said, "You didn't give me enough notice."  I told her I asked her for her availability a week ahead of time and she said she didn't remember till the day before and had a meeting.  All I said was, "Please don't tell me that I haven't made an effort when we both know that isn't true."  She then told me about how her friends don't like me anymore, and I asked how that could be?  She said, "Well, I haven't told them anything!  One of my friends made her mind up for herself."  I responded with, "Right."  One thing she said to me that shows how confused she is was, "How could I say that her and the kids were important to you if you don't come around much?"  I responded with, "Wife, when you tell me to leave your house and not come back, don't speak to me for days or weeks at a time, what do you expect?  Do you really think I like being away from my family?". She didn't answer that one.  We ended ok and talked on the phone when she went to pick up our son.  She hung up right before he got in the car.  I didn't call her back and she didn't call me.

    Yesterday morning was our opening day tournament and my wife showed up with our daughter.  She had to leave for a bit to take our son to work.  She got back and after we won, we all had to get a bite to eat before the championship game yesterday afternoon.  I asked if she wanted to go get a bite and she said, "Sure".  We let our daughter pick where to eat, and then we went and ate.  We had a good time, I made sure to keep it light and joke around with them.  When we were done, we had to be back at the fields to warm the girls back up.  My wife asked me if she could keep score for me like she used to and I said, "Of course".  When that game was over, we walked to the parking lot together and I asked if they were going home.  She said yes and I told them bye.  I came home and watched TV for a while and my wife called me and we talked for about 30 minutes.  I kept it light and we even laughed about some stuff that happened during the game.  We hung up and didnt talk again yesterday.

    This morning, my wife texted and asked me if I was still able to stay with our daughter when she goes on the choir trip with our older two in two weeks over the weekend.  I said that I would love to and that it would give me some one on one time with her.  She said she would talk to her and make sure that is what our daughter still wanted and asked if we had a game that weekend.  I responded and said ok and told her the game times.  She responded about 15 minutes later and said that our daughter wanted to stay with me.  I said, "Ok, Awesome!  I'm really looking forward to it."  She didn't respond, and didn't expect one.  But this shows me she is a VERY confused person.  It's sad.  I am in a new place though as of a couple of days ago.  I'm no longer going to focus on what she is feeling, trying to figure her out, or chase her any longer.  I am going to let her make some effort, and at the same time not going to put my life on hold.  What I want is for us to have a happy marriage, but if not and she chooses something different, I will be okay.  I'm proud of myself for not chasing her any longer and actually letting go of the daily emotional drama.  I'm also proud of myself for not contacting her first in a week and a half.  I felt chasing just makes things worse, especially when her feelings change from one moment to the next.  
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Grey Kitty
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Separated
Posts: 7182



« Reply #52 on: February 22, 2015, 08:28:13 PM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Sounds like you are doing better with your wife.

Sounds like she is still kinda crazy-making, but a bit better.

One suggestion... .next time the divorce threat comes up... .Probably OK to ignore it in email. If she says something about it face to face or on the phone, you could validate more and argue less about it.

"I don't want a divorce, but I can't stop you from getting one."

Don't argue with the threat, don't engage the threat. That puts the choice to file back on her. (And what she wants is probably to engage you with the threat, not to actually DO the work of legal paperwork and dealing with lawyers.

And there really isn't anything to say about it, so don't let that part of the conversation keep going.

Stay strong in yourself! You are getting this.
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MaroonLiquid
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Posts: 1294


« Reply #53 on: February 23, 2015, 08:16:16 AM »

Continued on the new thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271970.0
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EaglesJuju
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What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Parent
Posts: 1653



« Reply #54 on: February 23, 2015, 08:44:01 AM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .
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