NC at Home Possible?

[BestVersionOfMe]

After another series of raging texts from my BPDw I've been advised by my life coach to get away from her.  Problem is I have 3 kids that need a loving stable person in their lives and I don't want to remove myself,  not to mention she wants me to go and wants to "win" that battle in the first place.  He told me that I should have a short conversation that says, "We have spoken disrespectfully to each other for the last time.  If you need to communicate to me put it in an email otherwise I won't be listening at all unless it is something about the kids or bills, etc."  At the moment she is sleeping in the downstairs bedroom and we speak very little to each other already, mostly it is just texts about kids, but this morning was about her not respecting a time I needed to leave the house to meet my buddy for a hike on purpose, me holding my ground about it, and then her sending one awful text after another about how I need therapy, and I'm crazy, and I'm controlling, etc.  Just awful, awful words from this woman.  I like the idea of NC, but that is kind of impossible in the same house isn't it?  Anyone have any luck with NC or just putting some distance between the two parties verbally?  I don't know how many more rage sessions like this I can take. 

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

You two are deep in a cycle of conflict. It makes sense to try and stop it, rather than resolve it. This means detaching from the cycle mentally. I can tell that you are really emotionally charged (as would be anyone).

NC is a physical separation intended to help people emotionally detach.  Its not possible to do this in a home with three children in a healthy way.

Going silent on her will escalate the tensions.

You can still go for detachment - it will just take different tools.

Detaching from it all will not.  For example, having her express herself by text or email is a way to tone it down. You an have a 24 hour rule and agree that the other person has that much time to respond - cool off, but don't say that. Can you make a two week plan to minimize contact to help ease the tension? Maybe you site down and schedule night for her to go out with friends and vie versa.  Agree to do this for the kids.

"Get away from her" is something that needs to be thought out.  Exiting can create custody and other family court issues.  I'd meet with a lawyer and get the lay of the land before acting.  

What are you fighting about?

[Notwendy]

I think it is good to not set boundaries that you can not keep because all that does is teach them that they can break down your boundaries.

I think NC is pretty much impossible in the same home and with family members who are attached to each other. I considered NC at one time with my mother with BPD, but she's attached to my father and other family members so, it was pretty much impossible. Also, I didn't want to not have some relationship with her, because even at the most difficult times, she is still my mother.

You and your wife will always be connected through the children and so, will need to have some level of communication. Sometimes people choose low contact- only discussing certain things and/or not for long. It is sometimes good not to tell them your boundaries, simply decide for yourself.

My mother has repeatedly not kept my private business private. If I tell her something personal, she has gone on to tell other people even if I asked her not to. I can't control what she does, but I can decide what to say to her and what not. So, if I want something to be private, I do not tell her.

With my H, there is a lot about me that he knows, so I don't keep those kinds of secrets. However I have learned that some discussions only go down the path of him thinking I am criticising him and then dysregulating. It is not so much that I don't want to talk to him but that I realize that it doesn't do any good to say something and it may do harm. I didn't want to filter my words, but for my own sanity, I do.

You don't have to tell your wife what you will not talk about, and you can simply decide what you will talk about. You can't stop her from talking about anything. You can't tell her to go NC. She's going to say what she's going to say, and you can decide to respond or not.

When you do communicate, the tools on this site will help.

[vortex of confusion]

Nothing can be resolved until the cycle of conflict stops. It took me quite a while to figure out how to stop the cycle of conflict. And, it took my husband going to a 12 step program and a therapist because there are times when I try to communicate something to him and he resists it. His sponsor or therapist can say the exact same thing to him and he will listen and will work on it.

When things were at there worst between us (a year or two ago), I wanted to get some space but knew that I couldn't do it because we have 4 kids together. What I was able to do was figure out how to go away for a week. It was nothing permanent and the purpose was to give each of us space. Since I am the stay at home parent, I asked him to take some time off work to be with the kids for that week. There were problems with his relationship with the kids and I had been the scapegoat. It forced my husband to spend a week with the kids and I got a "vacation".

Is there any way that one of you can take a vacation for a week or a weekend just to get a little bit of breathing space?

Something else to think about is whether or not she rages at you like that in person as well. The reason that I bring that up is that there was a period of time where trying to text and email would lead to this horrible fights and rages between my husband and I. Now, we only talk about business stuff like grocery lists or bills in email or text. If there is an important relationship issue, we try to focus on talking about that in person. It took a long time to get to that point. It took me doing the week away. I had to set some boundaries and deal with him getting mad when I wouldn't respond to a text or email. I would be at work and wouldn't respond to an email and would come home to him, "Is there a reason that you didn't respond to me?"

That reminds me of something else that I have done. I got a job outside the house and my schedule is such that I work on nights/days when he is home. So, it limits our contact. The less we are home at the same time, the less chance there is that we will have reasons to fight/argue. But, it is really important to figure out how to set some boundaries around emails, texts, and phone calls. For a while, me being out of the house didn't work because then I would get bombarded with calls, etc. and it would ruin any and all attempts for me to get space. It will take time and patience and you will need to work on not reacting to things and escalating the situation. It isn't easy. I have had to review the lessons on several occasions because I used to react and fuel the fires.

[BestVersionOfMe]

You two are deep in a cycle of conflict. It makes sense to try and stop it, rather than resolve it. This means detaching from the cycle mentally. I can tell that you are really emotionally charged (as would be anyone).

NC is a physical separation intended to help people emotionally detach.  Its not possible to do this in a home with three children in a healthy way.

Going silent on her will escalate the tensions.

You can still go for detachment - it will just take different tools.

Detaching from it all will not.  For example, having her express herself by text or email is a way to tone it down. You an have a 24 hour rule and agree that the other person has that much time to respond - cool off, but don't say that. Can you make a two week plan to minimize contact to help ease the tension? Maybe you site down and schedule night for her to go out with friends and vie versa.  Agree to do this for the kids.

"Get away from her" is something that needs to be thought out.  Exiting can create custody and other family court issues.  I'd meet with a lawyer and get the lay of the land before acting.  

What are you fighting about?

Ok I'll work on detachment.  I have been doing that to a degree but not enough.  Exiting is not a good move for custody so that isn't an option either.  We spend time watching tv with each other at night just like every night but there isn't much communication at all.  ALL of these episodes come from me trying to enforce a boundary, her likely losing control, and then raging on me via text in incoherent blaming.  It is really remarkable to watch.  Wife wants nothing to do with me.  She is cold as ice and withdrawn entirely.  I don't see any sign of her feeling abandoned like I see in other examples.  I told her last week, "I'm not going anywhere.  I made a vow and I'm working on being the best version of myself that I can, a wonderful father and provider, and husband.  I'd love for you to join me.  If not and you are done then go ahead."  She is all talk.  Her words are her weapons and she continues not to go consult an atty or file for separation or divorce.  If you think "couch time" at night is reinforcing negative feelings enough to not diffuse things then I have no problem spending my nights upstairs or going out with buddies, etc.  We can't even speak so having a "discussion" about who spends time on what nights and where isn't even possible.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I think it is good to not set boundaries that you can not keep because all that does is teach them that they can break down your boundaries.

I think NC is pretty much impossible in the same home and with family members who are attached to each other. I considered NC at one time with my mother with BPD, but she's attached to my father and other family members so, it was pretty much impossible. Also, I didn't want to not have some relationship with her, because even at the most difficult times, she is still my mother.

You and your wife will always be connected through the children and so, will need to have some level of communication. Sometimes people choose low contact- only discussing certain things and/or not for long. It is sometimes good not to tell them your boundaries, simply decide for yourself.

My mother has repeatedly not kept my private business private. If I tell her something personal, she has gone on to tell other people even if I asked her not to. I can't control what she does, but I can decide what to say to her and what not. So, if I want something to be private, I do not tell her.

With my H, there is a lot about me that he knows, so I don't keep those kinds of secrets. However I have learned that some discussions only go down the path of him thinking I am criticising him and then dysregulating. It is not so much that I don't want to talk to him but that I realize that it doesn't do any good to say something and it may do harm. I didn't want to filter my words, but for my own sanity, I do.

You don't have to tell your wife what you will not talk about, and you can simply decide what you will talk about. You can't stop her from talking about anything. You can't tell her to go NC. She's going to say what she's going to say, and you can decide to respond or not.

When you do communicate, the tools on this site will help.

In retrospect I could have just left for the hike after she got back so that there was no opportunity for her to pull this stunt.  She does it every time.  My buddy wouldn't have cared, he would have been fine. 

[Skip]

What is the boundary and how did you set it up?

[BestVersionOfMe]

What is the boundary and how did you set it up?

Me, "I'm going on a hike at 10 am tomorrow with Jason."

Her, "Ok, I'm going on a run before then."

Me next morning via text, "Just a reminder I'm going on a hike at 10 so I'll need to leave the house around 9:50."

Her while putting on shoes for her run around 8 am and with condescending attitude, "Well I'm going out for two hours so if you have a problem with that then you can call some sitters or drop them off at my folks."

Me, "Please don't speak to me that way in front of the kids.  I told you last night my plans and I'd like for you to respect them."

Her, slam door and leave.

With her awful texts that she sent throughout the day I don't know how we can ever get to a point where the conflict is stopped unless I remove myself from her presence.  I could get up, get kids ready, take them to school and then come home to put them to bed at 8 each day? 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Btw, I really don't see any sign of weakness in my wife and her horrible attitude.  I'd like to get out of the cycle of conflict but I'm not sure how to do it.  It is one-sided.  I am reasonable and respectful, loving, sometimes affectionate when she lets me, etc.  I'm just wondering if that is empowering her.  I don't see any type of behavior that shows fear on her part of being abandoned and it really doesn't add up with the other BPD behavior that are spot on.  I'd like to give this one more shot but things need to die down.  I think I should stop the affection and I love you's and just stay away from the house aside from kids in the morning and night.  I don't want to remove myself from the house for many reasons but the insanity must stop.  If I get rage texts or rude texts I'm simply going to ignore them.  S.E.T. is going nowhere with this woman, in fact she appears to feel more justified by validation and brings up her POV even more.  The only communication I think I should allow is stuff about bills and kids.  Thoughts?

[Verbena]

I agree with others that No Contact is impossible if you are living in the house and have children living with you.  Low Contact is possible, though, and it sounds like that's what you have already.  You may need to move to Very Low Contact, communicating with her only when it concerns the kids or the logistics of the household. Any extra contact you have with her outside what is truly necessary will only give her license to act out and bait you into conflicts.  

Our children are grown and gone, but I practice VERY Low Contact with my H of 32 years.  We sleep in different rooms and I limit my conversations with him to  only what is necessary.  He doesn't like it and it makes him even angrier, but he rufuses to accept that I am not okay anymore with the constant negativity, miserable attitude, and seething anger over anything and everything.  He doesn't see himself that way at all and won't even discuss it, much less change it.  

Very Low Contact may be the only way for you to go at the moment.   As long as you have any connection to her--and you always will because you have children together--the conflicts won't ever end.  The goal is to just reduce them as much as possible. It's hard to fight with someone who won't play the game anymore.   

[BestVersionOfMe]

I agree with others that No Contact is impossible if you are living in the house and have children living with you.  Low Contact is possible, though, and it sounds like that's what you have already.  You may need to move to Very Low Contact, communicating with her only when it concerns the kids or the logistics of the household. Any extra contact you have with her outside what is truly necessary will only give her license to act out and bait you into conflicts.  

Our children are grown and gone, but I practice VERY Low Contact with my H of 32 years.  We sleep in different rooms and I limit my conversations with him to  only what is necessary.  He doesn't like it and it makes him even angrier, but he rufuses to accept that I am not okay anymore with the constant negativity, miserable attitude, and seething anger over anything and everything.  He doesn't see himself that way at all and won't even discuss it, much less change it.  

Very Low Contact may be the only way for you to go at the moment.   As long as you have any connection to her--and you always will because you have children together--the conflicts won't ever end.  The goal is to just reduce them as much as possible. It's hard to fight with someone who won't play the game anymore.   

Yep has to be this way for now.  My wife also refuses to accept that I'm not okay with her constant negativity, horrible attitude, and vicious texts.  She has no doubt in her mind I'm the cause of all of her problems and has confirmed with others that I've "ruined her life."  Her conviction about this is truly remarkable.  I guess that is why radical acceptance is so important. To be honest the time spent on the couch at night watching TV isn't bad at all.  Mostly quiet and we comment on whatever we are watching or sometimes laugh.  If I remove that time during the day I don't know that it will improve things or not.  Anybody else have a borderline that doesn't show any signs of fearing abandonment?  Mine sure puts on a good show in that regard.  I was speaking with a mutual friend last night and she told me that my wife shut her out and won't talk about anything.  I think the only person she has contact with is a ultra woman power chick who openly talks about her husband in a negative manner.  I think she is seeking validation only from those that will give it to her in the way she wants to confirm her POV.  What I will say is that during the past two weeks, prior to the blow up from yesterday, I still pursued her.  I won't anymore.  I honestly think it just empowers her to be even more withdrawn and angry. 

[Verbena]

BestVersionofMe,

Is your wife aware she has BPD?  Is it something you discuss?  She sounds similar to my husband in that she prefers being angry and critical and negative, but I can honestly say my husband does not fit the criteria for BPD. Our daughter definitely does and has been diagnosed although today, ten years later, she denies that.  Anyway, even if my husband did clearly have this disorder, it wouldn't matter because he would never be accountable for the way he behaves and CERTAINLY would not agree there is anything wrong with him. 

I agree that being angry and miserable can be empowering for people like your wife and my husband.  It's all they know.  It's normal for them.  My husband can switch in a split second into a pleasant person when he has to with other people (never with me anymore), so that tells me there has to be awareness.  Yet, he appears shocked when I verbalize my perception of his behavior.  He just doesn't know what I'm talking about, can't remember, whatever. 

Does your wife have a different persona around other people?  IN other words, does she hide the negativity and anger from others?  My H is eerily good at this, and yet many people have seen how he is and commented on it over the years.  I have told him this and he has no comment. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

BestVersionofMe,

Is your wife aware she has BPD?  Is it something you discuss?  She sounds similar to my husband in that she prefers being angry and critical and negative, but I can honestly say my husband does not fit the criteria for BPD. Our daughter definitely does and has been diagnosed although today, ten years later, she denies that.  Anyway, even if my husband did clearly have this disorder, it wouldn't matter because he would never be accountable for the way he behaves and CERTAINLY would not agree there is anything wrong with him. 

I agree that being angry and miserable can be empowering for people like your wife and my husband.  It's all they know.  It's normal for them.  My husband can switch in a split second into a pleasant person when he has to with other people (never with me anymore), so that tells me there has to be awareness.  Yet, he appears shocked when I verbalize my perception of his behavior.  He just doesn't know what I'm talking about, can't remember, whatever. 

Does your wife have a different persona around other people?  IN other words, does she hide the negativity and anger from others?  My H is eerily good at this, and yet many people have seen how he is and commented on it over the years.  I have told him this and he has no comment. 

Yep her public image is a person that is fun and loud.  Know one knows her.  People that do know her dirty little secret she distances herself from.  It is all a sham.  This is why I think she hasn't ever followed through with divorce, it would permanently wreck the image that she wants.  She tries hard at making this image real from the way she works out, to how she dresses, to how she acts, to how she does over the top school projects so that my children's teachers think she is a great mom.  Behind it all is a negative, grumpy, angry depressed and emotionally stunted girl.  Her mom abused her her entire life and she has mentioned sexual abuse as a child by her "uncle".  She is damaged goods and thinks I'm the cause of all of her problems.  I brought up her having a PD one time in a fight and she brings it up that it must be me, not her.  I'm quite certain her mother is BPD and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. 

[vortex of confusion]

I think she is seeking validation only from those that will give it to her in the way she wants to confirm her POV.  What I will say is that during the past two weeks, prior to the blow up from yesterday, I still pursued her.  I won't anymore.  I honestly think it just empowers her to be even more withdrawn and angry. 

I have a couple of thoughts as I have dealt with some of the same stuff.

First, STOP pursuing her. I don't know about empowerment but it definitely sends the message that she can do whatever she wants and get away with it so to speak. I chased my husband for years. I kept thinking that maybe things would be better if I could somehow figure out some kind of magic formula to help him feel better. If I was a better wife or a better something, then maybe he wouldn't be so negative and unhappy. It wasn't until I stopped pursuing him and started setting boundaries that things started to improve a little. And, I cut way down and even stopped saying "I love you" for a brief period of time. He wanted to push me away and be a jerk so I changed my behavior on my side of things.

Mine also talked a lot about divorce. Really, both of us did and it was all talk. He quit talking about it when I started taking him seriously. At one point, he said, "Maybe we should get a divorce." So, I responded with, "Okay, then we need to start moving towards that. We need to see who is going to pay what bills. I need to put all of my checks in my account so I can get a better idea of how much I am going to have to work with on my own." I got very practical and he responded, "I see you have been planning this for a while." I didn't take the bait and simply said, "No, I haven't been planning this. You said you wanted a divorce so I am trying to be very practical and figure out how to do it." He backed down rather quickly and has said that we have to wait a while before we can even consider such a thing.

At some point, I think I told him that I did not want to be with somebody that didn't want to be with me.

What do you think your wife would say if you wanted to go see a counselor or therapist?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I think she is seeking validation only from those that will give it to her in the way she wants to confirm her POV.  What I will say is that during the past two weeks, prior to the blow up from yesterday, I still pursued her.  I won't anymore.  I honestly think it just empowers her to be even more withdrawn and angry. 

I have a couple of thoughts as I have dealt with some of the same stuff.

First, STOP pursuing her. I don't know about empowerment but it definitely sends the message that she can do whatever she wants and get away with it so to speak. I chased my husband for years. I kept thinking that maybe things would be better if I could somehow figure out some kind of magic formula to help him feel better. If I was a better wife or a better something, then maybe he wouldn't be so negative and unhappy. It wasn't until I stopped pursuing him and started setting boundaries that things started to improve a little. And, I cut way down and even stopped saying "I love you" for a brief period of time. He wanted to push me away and be a jerk so I changed my behavior on my side of things.

Mine also talked a lot about divorce. Really, both of us did and it was all talk. He quit talking about it when I started taking him seriously. At one point, he said, "Maybe we should get a divorce." So, I responded with, "Okay, then we need to start moving towards that. We need to see who is going to pay what bills. I need to put all of my checks in my account so I can get a better idea of how much I am going to have to work with on my own." I got very practical and he responded, "I see you have been planning this for a while." I didn't take the bait and simply said, "No, I haven't been planning this. You said you wanted a divorce so I am trying to be very practical and figure out how to do it." He backed down rather quickly and has said that we have to wait a while before we can even consider such a thing.

At some point, I think I told him that I did not want to be with somebody that didn't want to be with me.

What do you think your wife would say if you wanted to go see a counselor or therapist?

This is good confirmation about my plan to stop pursuing so thank you.  We've both threatened divorce a bunch of times.  We have been to see a therapist.  It was pointless because her reason for going was to manipulate the therapist into making it about me.  She played the victim role to perfection.  What I will say is that I've not done a great job of being the provider for the family that I should and that is on me.  Worries of money are a massive trigger for her so I'm been crushing it and things are getting so much better so I think the combination of not pursuing and her feeling more secure about how we pay bills will greatly calm things down.  I work for myself so if I work harder and sell more rather than spending my time worrying about her I can make a lot more money very quickly which is proving to be true this time as well.  I'm fortunate to be able to to that.  Last time my wife threatened divorce I said, go ahead.  I'm working on me, to be the best version of me that I can and either you can come along for the ride or not, it makes no difference to me.  So of course she hasn't done a damn thing, never has. 

[vortex of confusion]

We have been to see a therapist.  It was pointless because her reason for going was to manipulate the therapist into making it about me.  She played the victim role to perfection.

I hear that is quite common. And, it is also quite common for the therapist to focus more on the partner that is actually willing and able to do something. As much as it stinks to admit, I am a big part of the problem. A lot of the stuff going on with my husband IS about me. It is about me because I have allowed him to treat me like crap. I have not set boundaries. I let myself get caught up in his negativity and BS for years. I CAN take ownership of that and I can try to find ways to stop it. I know my husband is great at playing the victim. He doesn't blame me as much as he blames his FOO, religion, and who knows what else. The funny thing is that when I started trying to step up at admit my role in things, he wanted to argue with me and say that it was all his fault. It is really friggin' messed up.

What I will say is that I've not done a great job of being the provider for the family that I should and that is on me.  Worries of money are a massive trigger for her so I'm been crushing it and things are getting so much better so I think the combination of not pursuing and her feeling more secure about how we pay bills will greatly calm things down. 

I am going to ask a question that may or may not be relevant. Why is it your job to be the provider? Is she a stay at home mom? Have the two of you agreed that it is your responsibility to be the provider? Or, is it an unspoken expectation?

I work for myself so if I work harder and sell more rather than spending my time worrying about her I can make a lot more money very quickly which is proving to be true this time as well.  I'm fortunate to be able to to that.  Last time my wife threatened divorce I said, go ahead.  I'm working on me, to be the best version of me that I can and either you can come along for the ride or not, it makes no difference to me.  So of course she hasn't done a damn thing, never has. 

How long have you two been married? I don't recall seeing that. I have been with my husband for 16.5 years and it has been the same cycle over and over again. For the longest time, he didn't do a damn thing either. He would ignore my complaints. Get snotty with me over the smallest stuff and it was a giant cesspool of crapulence. Stop worrying so much about her. Focus on your business. Focus on doing stuff with your kids. Focus on doing stuff with your friends. She will either stand on the sidelines griping and complaining or she will chill out and come along. Or, she might actually leave. The key is to get to a place where you are okay with any of those options. I am still trying to get there and I am still trying to figure out why I have allowed myself to be treated like this. I am trying to focus on me rather than worrying so much about what he is or isn't doing. It isn't easy that is for sure.

[Turkish]

I did LC/VLC for the months it took for my Ex to leave. We only had 3 arguments in that period, and the last one was on the night of a second burglary where our home was ransacked and multiple windows broken, so the stress level that night was pretty high. It devolved into mutual JADEing, not good, so I finally stopped the argument after 10 mins. FWIW, I usually went into my room to read after the kids were in bed, and she either was on the couch, or out. I did not want to spend any time with her, though she tried now and then to with me until I consistently enforced my boundary.

My plan, however, was with an end in sight, even if it turned out to be "if I don't find a place in a month and a half, I'll leave and go somewhere," which turned into two more months until she finally was able to leave, awaiting subsidized housing. It was just business regarding the kids or whatever household things needed tending to, which I started taking care of more. I rarely ate at the same table as she did even. That plan seemed to work for a breakup. I can't imagine living like this long term.

While it's a plan to keep distance in the short term, I don't see how this is going to work in the long term, and either way, the kids will pick up on it. What's your end goal here?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I did LC/VLC for the months it took for my Ex to leave. We only had 3 arguments in that period, and the last one was on the night of a second burglary where our home was ransacked and multiple windows broken, so the stress level that night was pretty high. It devolved into mutual JADEing, not good, so I finally stopped the argument after 10 mins. FWIW, I usually went into my room to read after the kids were in bed, and she either was on the couch, or out. I did not want to spend any time with her, though she tried now and then to with me until I consistently enforced my boundary.

My plan, however, was with an end in sight, even if it turned out to be "if I don't find a place in a month and a half, I'll leave and go somewhere," which turned into two more months until she finally was able to leave, awaiting subsidized housing. It was just business regarding the kids or whatever household things needed tending to, which I started taking care of more. I rarely ate at the same table as she did even. That plan seemed to work for a breakup. I can't imagine living like this long term.

While it's a plan to keep distance in the short term, I don't see how this is going to work in the long term, and either way, the kids will pick up on it. What's your end goal here?

End goal is not to go VLC forever, but it is to diffuse the rage and anger at me.  I'm working on myself and these rage episodes really cause me a lot of unnecessary pain at the moment.  After that I simply just don't know where things will go. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

We have been to see a therapist.  It was pointless because her reason for going was to manipulate the therapist into making it about me.  She played the victim role to perfection.

I hear that is quite common. And, it is also quite common for the therapist to focus more on the partner that is actually willing and able to do something. As much as it stinks to admit, I am a big part of the problem. A lot of the stuff going on with my husband IS about me. It is about me because I have allowed him to treat me like crap. I have not set boundaries. I let myself get caught up in his negativity and BS for years. I CAN take ownership of that and I can try to find ways to stop it. I know my husband is great at playing the victim. He doesn't blame me as much as he blames his FOO, religion, and who knows what else. The funny thing is that when I started trying to step up at admit my role in things, he wanted to argue with me and say that it was all his fault. It is really friggin' messed up.

What I will say is that I've not done a great job of being the provider for the family that I should and that is on me.  Worries of money are a massive trigger for her so I'm been crushing it and things are getting so much better so I think the combination of not pursuing and her feeling more secure about how we pay bills will greatly calm things down. 

I am going to ask a question that may or may not be relevant. Why is it your job to be the provider? Is she a stay at home mom? Have the two of you agreed that it is your responsibility to be the provider? Or, is it an unspoken expectation?

I work for myself so if I work harder and sell more rather than spending my time worrying about her I can make a lot more money very quickly which is proving to be true this time as well.  I'm fortunate to be able to to that.  Last time my wife threatened divorce I said, go ahead.  I'm working on me, to be the best version of me that I can and either you can come along for the ride or not, it makes no difference to me.  So of course she hasn't done a damn thing, never has. 

How long have you two been married? I don't recall seeing that. I have been with my husband for 16.5 years and it has been the same cycle over and over again. For the longest time, he didn't do a damn thing either. He would ignore my complaints. Get snotty with me over the smallest stuff and it was a giant cesspool of crapulence. Stop worrying so much about her. Focus on your business. Focus on doing stuff with your kids. Focus on doing stuff with your friends. She will either stand on the sidelines griping and complaining or she will chill out and come along. Or, she might actually leave. The key is to get to a place where you are okay with any of those options. I am still trying to get there and I am still trying to figure out why I have allowed myself to be treated like this. I am trying to focus on me rather than worrying so much about what he is or isn't doing. It isn't easy that is for sure.

We have 3 kids and yes we both committed to her being a SAHM and me working full time.  It's not just the money, it is the finances and being irresponsible and not making sure we had a plan in place to live a secure life.  Lot's of highs and lows, definitely on me, not her.  I'm changing that now.  12 years.  I identified this behavior about 6 years ago, but I didn't know what was going on until recently.  I'm with you, it is hard to not worry about what she is doing but I'm trying to get there.  I'm trying to be happy because that is what I want regardless of her negativity or pea-cocking attitude.  I choose to be happy, that is my choice.  I have a lot of friends and I'm doing my best to spend more time with them regardless of what she is doing.  It is a rebuilding process however because I lost myself and stopped hanging out with most.  Making more money for me is something that will open up a lot of doors for me.  I'll feel better.  My triggered wife will feel better.  I must say things are always better when there is plenty of money and horrible when things are tight.  She grew up with very little so I can only assume that is a huge deal for her.  Day by day, little by little.  I have another post that is called "Best Version of Me".

[BestVersionOfMe]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

[Turkish]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

BVOM,

While you are doing what you need to to in order to protect yourself, how do you think your plan of VLC is going to play out in the long run? Does it actually sound like a relationship, or two ships passing in the night, as it were? How do you imagine this progressing as the year continues?

pwBPD react adversely to fear of abandonment, real or imagined. While you're not responsible for her feelings, a relationship involves two people. What do you think are realistic outcomes here?

[BestVersionOfMe]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

BVOM,

While you are doing what you need to to in order to protect yourself, how do you think your plan of VLC is going to play out in the long run? Does it actually sound like a relationship, or two ships passing in the night, as it were? How do you imagine this progressing as the year continues?

pwBPD react adversely to fear of abandonment, real or imagined. While you're not responsible for her feelings, a relationship involves two people. What do you think are realistic outcomes here?

I don't know anymore.  I feel like I want to give it one more shot after the conflict dies down, are you saying that me detaching is going to stifle that shot?  Perhaps I just need strength to leave.  Part of me wants to expose her to the world and to get 100% custody of the kids and make her feel the pain she has caused me all these years.  The abandonment, the withholding of every basic human emotion, the abuse.  I want her to go on a run one day and NEVER come back here so I can replace her with someone that wants a mutually beneficial relationship.  On the flip side I sometimes just miss her.  I miss her so badly.  I think deep down I am starting to come to terms with the fact that the girl I loved is long gone.  She is gone forever and never coming back and no matter how much I want her to come back she simply won't.  Why me?  Why did I choose her?  Why didn't I choose another woman that is kind and nice and that doesn't want to hurt me so much?  It is a battle between hate and sadness right now and when the hate takes over it will be done.  I will stop loving her and I'll do what I know needs to be done deep down.  I'm just not ready yet but I want to be.

[Turkish]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

BVOM,

While you are doing what you need to to in order to protect yourself, how do you think your plan of VLC is going to play out in the long run? Does it actually sound like a relationship, or two ships passing in the night, as it were? How do you imagine this progressing as the year continues?

pwBPD react adversely to fear of abandonment, real or imagined. While you're not responsible for her feelings, a relationship involves two people. What do you think are realistic outcomes here?

I don't know anymore.  I feel like I want to give it one more shot after the conflict dies down, are you saying that me detaching is going to stifle that shot?

Detaching is detaching, Best. PD or not, from some things there is no going back. NC for Leavers isn't even an end unto itself; it's a stage of detachment.

Perhaps I just need strength to leave.  Part of me wants to expose her to the world and to get 100% custody of the kids and make her feel the pain she has caused me all these years.  The abandonment, the withholding of every basic human emotion, the abuse.  I want her to go on a run one day and NEVER come back here so I can replace her with someone that wants a mutually beneficial relationship.  On the flip side I sometimes just miss her.  I miss her so badly.  I think deep down I am starting to come to terms with the fact that the girl I loved is long gone.  She is gone forever and never coming back and no matter how much I want her to come back she simply won't.  Why me?  Why did I choose her?  Why didn't I choose another woman that is kind and nice and that doesn't want to hurt me so much?  It is a battle between hate and sadness right now and when the hate takes over it will be done.  I will stop loving her and I'll do what I know needs to be done deep down.  I'm just not ready yet but I want to be.

You're in a lot of pain, BVOM, and exposing what many of us go through or have been through is seeking validation of that pain. I get that, and part of me still wishes she had fought for custody so i could have exposed her. I have no idea how that would have played out there than causing more pain.

You still love her, however, and it sounds like you don't know what to do. All I'm saying at this point is that detaching to me is emotionally leaving. I did it,.and the consequences were unavoidable.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Here comes the pea-cocking by wifey.  Just a subtle "I'm stronger than you" show of fake strength.  At least I know what it is and what it is designed for.  It is to make me uncomfortable and leave the house.  That ain't gonna happen.  I'm stronger than her now so no amount of fake toughness is gonna do anything, in fact I'm gonna work in the house today because I know she'll leave.  This about me and what I want and what I want is to remain in this house with the kids.  I learned this from my old business partner who was stealing from me.  He pea-cocked in the office and eventually I just packed my stuff up and left.  That was a sign of weakness to him and it made him more aggressive.  You can't back down from these people, you have to stand your ground calmly but confidently.  Btw, last night was total silence.  We watched our shows and shared some wine but no conversation at all. 

[vortex of confusion]

Here comes the pea-cocking by wifey.  Just a subtle "I'm stronger than you" show of fake strength.  At least I know what it is and what it is designed for.  It is to make me uncomfortable and leave the house.  That ain't gonna happen.  I'm stronger than her now so no amount of fake toughness is gonna do anything, in fact I'm gonna work in the house today because I know she'll leave.

If your goal is to stay and try to limit conflict, this isn't the way to make it happen. I had to step away from the power play stuff. It isn't about me being stronger or weaker. I had to take that out of the equation. If you want to work in the house, work in the house. Don't work in the house to make her leave. That sounds very jerkish. Do what YOU want to do and set boundaries to protect yourself. Don't make decisions based on what she will or won't do.

Turkish brings up some good things to think about with regards to detachment. If your ultimate goal is to leave, detachment is probably a great way to go. If you want to stay, then it is probably best to focus on becoming unenmeshed. If your wife is out at the store and you are bothered, then that is on you. You need to get to a point where her being out isn't a big deal. I want a relationship where we both have things that we do. I want to feel like my own person rather than just an extension of my husband. And I want my husband to feel like his own person rather than just an extension of me. It is the codependent dance of being completely enmeshed. When completely enmeshed, it is soo easy to take everything your partner does personally. It is so easy to be bothered when your partner does something normal. I have been working on stepping away from all of that.

I have no idea what the ultimate outcome of all of this will be. I do know that it feels like my husband and I have basically separated while still living together. It has been a long hard road and I still don't know what the outcome will be. At one point, I kind of diffused things by saying something along the lines of, "I don't care whose fault all of this is. All I want is peace. I want our kids to grow up in a peaceful household with a mom and a dad. Aside from that, I am tired. I am tired of all of this BS." When I started approaching it from that angle, things have slowly changed.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Here comes the pea-cocking by wifey.  Just a subtle "I'm stronger than you" show of fake strength.  At least I know what it is and what it is designed for.  It is to make me uncomfortable and leave the house.  That ain't gonna happen.  I'm stronger than her now so no amount of fake toughness is gonna do anything, in fact I'm gonna work in the house today because I know she'll leave.

If your goal is to stay and try to limit conflict, this isn't the way to make it happen. I had to step away from the power play stuff. It isn't about me being stronger or weaker. I had to take that out of the equation. If you want to work in the house, work in the house. Don't work in the house to make her leave. That sounds very jerkish. Do what YOU want to do and set boundaries to protect yourself. Don't make decisions based on what she will or won't do.

Turkish brings up some good things to think about with regards to detachment. If your ultimate goal is to leave, detachment is probably a great way to go. If you want to stay, then it is probably best to focus on becoming unenmeshed. If your wife is out at the store and you are bothered, then that is on you. You need to get to a point where her being out isn't a big deal. I want a relationship where we both have things that we do. I want to feel like my own person rather than just an extension of my husband. And I want my husband to feel like his own person rather than just an extension of me. It is the codependent dance of being completely enmeshed. When completely enmeshed, it is soo easy to take everything your partner does personally. It is so easy to be bothered when your partner does something normal. I have been working on stepping away from all of that.

I have no idea what the ultimate outcome of all of this will be. I do know that it feels like my husband and I have basically separated while still living together. It has been a long hard road and I still don't know what the outcome will be. At one point, I kind of diffused things by saying something along the lines of, "I don't care whose fault all of this is. All I want is peace. I want our kids to grow up in a peaceful household with a mom and a dad. Aside from that, I am tired. I am tired of all of this BS." When I started approaching it from that angle, things have slowly changed.

I guess that is the issue, I don't know where I want to take this.  I'm 42, successful, attractive and want love, but if I could find a way to bring the relationship with my wife to a place that is somewhat reasonable and keep the family together then I will put in the effort to do so, even if the chances are very slim.  In fact if it weren't for my Pastor I think I would have left her already.  I'm tired of the BS too.  It is ridiculous, as in complete insanity.  When you said things have slowly changed, how so?  As in things are better?  Tolerable?

[vortex of confusion]

I guess that is the issue, I don't know where I want to take this.  I'm 42, successful, attractive and want love, but if I could find a way to bring the relationship with my wife to a place that is somewhat reasonable and keep the family together then I will put in the effort to do so, even if the chances are very slim.  In fact if it weren't for my Pastor I think I would have left her already.  I'm tired of the BS too.  It is ridiculous, as in complete insanity.  When you said things have slowly changed, how so?  As in things are better?  Tolerable?

Things have slowly changed because I feel like I have gotten better control of myself. I am not as reactive to the stuff that he says or does. That is huge because I used to feel like a ball in a pinball machine bouncing from one reaction to another because of the things that my husband said or did. I hinged pretty much everything I did on him: what he wanted, what he was doing, what he was saying, and how he was acting. Sure, he still irritates the snot out of me at times but I am not reacting to it and I am not taking it personally.

And, some things have changed because he is in a 12 step program and has sought counseling. Even before he became invested in that stuff, things were starting to change because I was trying to find ways to end the cycle of conflict that we were in. I have posted on the staying, the leaving, and the undecided boards because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do or where to go with stuff. There is a link in the Lesson on the Undecided forum called Stop the Bleeding: https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/01.htm

Before I could do anything at all, I had to figure out how to stop or minimize the conflict. That was priority number one. While I was trying to figure that out, I read through the lessons and tried to figure out my role, his role, and what the heck was going on. My kids knew that things were messed up and they weren't happy. Our whole house was a cesspool of crapulence. Right now, my husband and I are still undecided as to the direction of our marriage and relationship. We both agree that we both need to work on ourselves. He is working on his stuff and I am working on my stuff with the hopes that once we each get ourselves in order, things will be more clear.

I do want to comment on the fact that your wife is a stay at home mom. That is very stressful and isolating. Does she have fun stuff that she can do outside of the house away from you and the kids? Do her outside activities include things other than going to the grocery store? If not, perhaps you can encourage her to do more things for herself. As a stay at home/work at home mom, there are times when it is so very lonely when days are filled with diapers and food and caring for the family. It is really easy to lose your identity and become angry and lash out at those around you. I fell into that trap for a while but I didn't know how to talk about it. The mommy wars make it really difficult for stay at home moms to find real support and real validation. If you add something like BPD or other mental issues, then it becomes a real hornets nest.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I guess that is the issue, I don't know where I want to take this.  I'm 42, successful, attractive and want love, but if I could find a way to bring the relationship with my wife to a place that is somewhat reasonable and keep the family together then I will put in the effort to do so, even if the chances are very slim.  In fact if it weren't for my Pastor I think I would have left her already.  I'm tired of the BS too.  It is ridiculous, as in complete insanity.  When you said things have slowly changed, how so?  As in things are better?  Tolerable?

Things have slowly changed because I feel like I have gotten better control of myself. I am not as reactive to the stuff that he says or does. That is huge because I used to feel like a ball in a pinball machine bouncing from one reaction to another because of the things that my husband said or did. I hinged pretty much everything I did on him: what he wanted, what he was doing, what he was saying, and how he was acting. Sure, he still irritates the snot out of me at times but I am not reacting to it and I am not taking it personally.

And, some things have changed because he is in a 12 step program and has sought counseling. Even before he became invested in that stuff, things were starting to change because I was trying to find ways to end the cycle of conflict that we were in. I have posted on the staying, the leaving, and the undecided boards because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do or where to go with stuff. There is a link in the Lesson on the Undecided forum called Stop the Bleeding: https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/01.htm

Before I could do anything at all, I had to figure out how to stop or minimize the conflict. That was priority number one. While I was trying to figure that out, I read through the lessons and tried to figure out my role, his role, and what the heck was going on. My kids knew that things were messed up and they weren't happy. Our whole house was a cesspool of crapulence. Right now, my husband and I are still undecided as to the direction of our marriage and relationship. We both agree that we both need to work on ourselves. He is working on his stuff and I am working on my stuff with the hopes that once we each get ourselves in order, things will be more clear.

I do want to comment on the fact that your wife is a stay at home mom. That is very stressful and isolating. Does she have fun stuff that she can do outside of the house away from you and the kids? Do her outside activities include things other than going to the grocery store? If not, perhaps you can encourage her to do more things for herself. As a stay at home/work at home mom, there are times when it is so very lonely when days are filled with diapers and food and caring for the family. It is really easy to lose your identity and become angry and lash out at those around you. I fell into that trap for a while but I didn't know how to talk about it. The mommy wars make it really difficult for stay at home moms to find real support and real validation. If you add something like BPD or other mental issues, then it becomes a real hornets nest.

I can see that.  My wife isn't a substance abuser, in fact I'm more prone to drinking when we fight a lot because I hate conflict.  All in all we are two very fit people that run and workout with our friends.  My wife works out or runs daily.  She has a large group of friends and our kids are 10, 8, and 4.  I honestly can't give her a pass on the SAHM part.  I get the kids up, cook breakfast, and nearly all dinners.  I am very hands on and involved in homework, coaching of the sports teams, etc.  My wife is concerned with appearance and what people think of her, in fact in observing her actions it seems nothing else matters.  She wants to be the hot, fit, SAHM just like all the other mommies in this neighborhood.  This is  her "identity" and I think the only reason she hasn't divorced me is because she desperately wants that identity.  My wife's parents are foreign, as in middle eastern, so I think a big part of what drives her is to distance herself from what she sees her parents as and become something entirely different.  She hates being compared to her mother.  Her mother is abusive and awful and never has anything nice to say.  As much as my wife wants to pretend she is nothing like her mother, the truth is she has turned into her mother. 

[Turkish]

My Ex went back to work after D2 was born. After that, I can only count the weekend days on one hand where she was the one to get up at 5:30-6AM to take care of then D0-1, and around 8AM, I would take care of then S2-3. I would do the usual: diaper changes, bottle, breakfast, laundry, and I would sometimes make breakfast for their mom and serve it to her in bed. I tried for a year to get her to go to bed earlier, but to no avail. She always needed more sleep than I did anyway (probably to reset her brain).

I grew to resent her for this, especially with her sometimes getting up and going on cleaning "rampages," and only sometimes apologizing later for her behavior (I think it was a FOO trigger for her). What I think I did wrong is that I never communicated my resentment, but she sure grew to feel it. I think in a way I was being passive-aggressive, and she often accused me of being a "bad communicator." There was probably some truth to that since I prefer to be avoidant in the face of anger, or possible anger.

As for the cultural issues, I had those in the mix as well, and that's tough.

Do you feel avoidant?

[BestVersionOfMe]

My Ex went back to work after D2 was born. After that, I can only count the weekend days on one hand where she was the one to get up at 5:30-6AM to take care of then D0-1, and around 8AM, I would take care of then S2-3. I would do the usual: diaper changes, bottle, breakfast, laundry, and I would sometimes make breakfast for their mom and serve it to her in bed. I tried for a year to get her to go to bed earlier, but to no avail. She always needed more sleep than I did anyway (probably to reset her brain).

I grew to resent her for this, especially with her sometimes getting up and going on cleaning "rampages," and only sometimes apologizing later for her behavior (I think it was a FOO trigger for her). What I think I did wrong is that I never communicated my resentment, but she sure grew to feel it. I think in a way I was being passive-aggressive, and she often accused me of being a "bad communicator." There was probably some truth to that since I prefer to be avoidant in the face of anger, or possible anger.

As for the cultural issues, I had those in the mix as well, and that's tough.

Do you feel avoidant?

This is one of her big issues with me is that I don't express my feelings.  Problem is when I express my feelings she rages, gaslights, denies, rejects, etc.  So for awhile I just stopped.  My silence now is probably making her think more of the same from me.  In reality I'm just not engaging anymore.  For example, I just stopped by the house really quick and left.  We didn't speak.  After I left she sent me a text saying, "Can you make sure and text me next time you plan on coming home?"  I didn't respond.  This is what I refer to as her "fake boundaries" that she pulls.  A double bind if you will.  If I agree to her fake boundary she gets her control.  If I don't respect it she says that I don't respect her "boundaries."  Coming and going from my own home is not a "boundary" so I just ignored it entirely, didn't respond and I'll continue coming and going when I please.  I'm I being fair here?  When I got the text I had that sinking feeling, as if I'm being outmatched and abused by a one line text.  If I did what I felt I'd respond back with a nasty text.  I can't validate her request, no chance.  I have a lot to learn about validation.  I stopped trying, it was causing more problems than it helped.