NC at Home Possible?

[BestVersionOfMe]

After another series of raging texts from my BPDw I've been advised by my life coach to get away from her.  Problem is I have 3 kids that need a loving stable person in their lives and I don't want to remove myself,  not to mention she wants me to go and wants to "win" that battle in the first place.  He told me that I should have a short conversation that says, "We have spoken disrespectfully to each other for the last time.  If you need to communicate to me put it in an email otherwise I won't be listening at all unless it is something about the kids or bills, etc."  At the moment she is sleeping in the downstairs bedroom and we speak very little to each other already, mostly it is just texts about kids, but this morning was about her not respecting a time I needed to leave the house to meet my buddy for a hike on purpose, me holding my ground about it, and then her sending one awful text after another about how I need therapy, and I'm crazy, and I'm controlling, etc.  Just awful, awful words from this woman.  I like the idea of NC, but that is kind of impossible in the same house isn't it?  Anyone have any luck with NC or just putting some distance between the two parties verbally?  I don't know how many more rage sessions like this I can take. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

You two are deep in a cycle of conflict. It makes sense to try and stop it, rather than resolve it. This means detaching from the cycle mentally. I can tell that you are really emotionally charged (as would be anyone).

NC is a physical separation intended to help people emotionally detach.  Its not possible to do this in a home with three children in a healthy way.

Going silent on her will escalate the tensions.

You can still go for detachment - it will just take different tools.

Detaching from it all will not.  For example, having her express herself by text or email is a way to tone it down. You an have a 24 hour rule and agree that the other person has that much time to respond - cool off, but don't say that. Can you make a two week plan to minimize contact to help ease the tension? Maybe you site down and schedule night for her to go out with friends and vie versa.  Agree to do this for the kids.

"Get away from her" is something that needs to be thought out.  Exiting can create custody and other family court issues.  I'd meet with a lawyer and get the lay of the land before acting.  

What are you fighting about?

[Notwendy]

I think it is good to not set boundaries that you can not keep because all that does is teach them that they can break down your boundaries.

I think NC is pretty much impossible in the same home and with family members who are attached to each other. I considered NC at one time with my mother with BPD, but she's attached to my father and other family members so, it was pretty much impossible. Also, I didn't want to not have some relationship with her, because even at the most difficult times, she is still my mother.

You and your wife will always be connected through the children and so, will need to have some level of communication. Sometimes people choose low contact- only discussing certain things and/or not for long. It is sometimes good not to tell them your boundaries, simply decide for yourself.

My mother has repeatedly not kept my private business private. If I tell her something personal, she has gone on to tell other people even if I asked her not to. I can't control what she does, but I can decide what to say to her and what not. So, if I want something to be private, I do not tell her.

With my H, there is a lot about me that he knows, so I don't keep those kinds of secrets. However I have learned that some discussions only go down the path of him thinking I am criticising him and then dysregulating. It is not so much that I don't want to talk to him but that I realize that it doesn't do any good to say something and it may do harm. I didn't want to filter my words, but for my own sanity, I do.

You don't have to tell your wife what you will not talk about, and you can simply decide what you will talk about. You can't stop her from talking about anything. You can't tell her to go NC. She's going to say what she's going to say, and you can decide to respond or not.

When you do communicate, the tools on this site will help.

[vortex of confusion]

Nothing can be resolved until the cycle of conflict stops. It took me quite a while to figure out how to stop the cycle of conflict. And, it took my husband going to a 12 step program and a therapist because there are times when I try to communicate something to him and he resists it. His sponsor or therapist can say the exact same thing to him and he will listen and will work on it.

When things were at there worst between us (a year or two ago), I wanted to get some space but knew that I couldn't do it because we have 4 kids together. What I was able to do was figure out how to go away for a week. It was nothing permanent and the purpose was to give each of us space. Since I am the stay at home parent, I asked him to take some time off work to be with the kids for that week. There were problems with his relationship with the kids and I had been the scapegoat. It forced my husband to spend a week with the kids and I got a "vacation".

Is there any way that one of you can take a vacation for a week or a weekend just to get a little bit of breathing space?

Something else to think about is whether or not she rages at you like that in person as well. The reason that I bring that up is that there was a period of time where trying to text and email would lead to this horrible fights and rages between my husband and I. Now, we only talk about business stuff like grocery lists or bills in email or text. If there is an important relationship issue, we try to focus on talking about that in person. It took a long time to get to that point. It took me doing the week away. I had to set some boundaries and deal with him getting mad when I wouldn't respond to a text or email. I would be at work and wouldn't respond to an email and would come home to him, "Is there a reason that you didn't respond to me?"

That reminds me of something else that I have done. I got a job outside the house and my schedule is such that I work on nights/days when he is home. So, it limits our contact. The less we are home at the same time, the less chance there is that we will have reasons to fight/argue. But, it is really important to figure out how to set some boundaries around emails, texts, and phone calls. For a while, me being out of the house didn't work because then I would get bombarded with calls, etc. and it would ruin any and all attempts for me to get space. It will take time and patience and you will need to work on not reacting to things and escalating the situation. It isn't easy. I have had to review the lessons on several occasions because I used to react and fuel the fires.

[BestVersionOfMe]

You two are deep in a cycle of conflict. It makes sense to try and stop it, rather than resolve it. This means detaching from the cycle mentally. I can tell that you are really emotionally charged (as would be anyone).

NC is a physical separation intended to help people emotionally detach.  Its not possible to do this in a home with three children in a healthy way.

Going silent on her will escalate the tensions.

You can still go for detachment - it will just take different tools.

Detaching from it all will not.  For example, having her express herself by text or email is a way to tone it down. You an have a 24 hour rule and agree that the other person has that much time to respond - cool off, but don't say that. Can you make a two week plan to minimize contact to help ease the tension? Maybe you site down and schedule night for her to go out with friends and vie versa.  Agree to do this for the kids.

"Get away from her" is something that needs to be thought out.  Exiting can create custody and other family court issues.  I'd meet with a lawyer and get the lay of the land before acting.  

What are you fighting about?

Ok I'll work on detachment.  I have been doing that to a degree but not enough.  Exiting is not a good move for custody so that isn't an option either.  We spend time watching tv with each other at night just like every night but there isn't much communication at all.  ALL of these episodes come from me trying to enforce a boundary, her likely losing control, and then raging on me via text in incoherent blaming.  It is really remarkable to watch.  Wife wants nothing to do with me.  She is cold as ice and withdrawn entirely.  I don't see any sign of her feeling abandoned like I see in other examples.  I told her last week, "I'm not going anywhere.  I made a vow and I'm working on being the best version of myself that I can, a wonderful father and provider, and husband.  I'd love for you to join me.  If not and you are done then go ahead."  She is all talk.  Her words are her weapons and she continues not to go consult an atty or file for separation or divorce.  If you think "couch time" at night is reinforcing negative feelings enough to not diffuse things then I have no problem spending my nights upstairs or going out with buddies, etc.  We can't even speak so having a "discussion" about who spends time on what nights and where isn't even possible.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I think it is good to not set boundaries that you can not keep because all that does is teach them that they can break down your boundaries.

I think NC is pretty much impossible in the same home and with family members who are attached to each other. I considered NC at one time with my mother with BPD, but she's attached to my father and other family members so, it was pretty much impossible. Also, I didn't want to not have some relationship with her, because even at the most difficult times, she is still my mother.

You and your wife will always be connected through the children and so, will need to have some level of communication. Sometimes people choose low contact- only discussing certain things and/or not for long. It is sometimes good not to tell them your boundaries, simply decide for yourself.

My mother has repeatedly not kept my private business private. If I tell her something personal, she has gone on to tell other people even if I asked her not to. I can't control what she does, but I can decide what to say to her and what not. So, if I want something to be private, I do not tell her.

With my H, there is a lot about me that he knows, so I don't keep those kinds of secrets. However I have learned that some discussions only go down the path of him thinking I am criticising him and then dysregulating. It is not so much that I don't want to talk to him but that I realize that it doesn't do any good to say something and it may do harm. I didn't want to filter my words, but for my own sanity, I do.

You don't have to tell your wife what you will not talk about, and you can simply decide what you will talk about. You can't stop her from talking about anything. You can't tell her to go NC. She's going to say what she's going to say, and you can decide to respond or not.

When you do communicate, the tools on this site will help.

In retrospect I could have just left for the hike after she got back so that there was no opportunity for her to pull this stunt.  She does it every time.  My buddy wouldn't have cared, he would have been fine. 

[Skip]

What is the boundary and how did you set it up?

[BestVersionOfMe]

What is the boundary and how did you set it up?

Me, "I'm going on a hike at 10 am tomorrow with Jason."

Her, "Ok, I'm going on a run before then."

Me next morning via text, "Just a reminder I'm going on a hike at 10 so I'll need to leave the house around 9:50."

Her while putting on shoes for her run around 8 am and with condescending attitude, "Well I'm going out for two hours so if you have a problem with that then you can call some sitters or drop them off at my folks."

Me, "Please don't speak to me that way in front of the kids.  I told you last night my plans and I'd like for you to respect them."

Her, slam door and leave.

With her awful texts that she sent throughout the day I don't know how we can ever get to a point where the conflict is stopped unless I remove myself from her presence.  I could get up, get kids ready, take them to school and then come home to put them to bed at 8 each day? 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Btw, I really don't see any sign of weakness in my wife and her horrible attitude.  I'd like to get out of the cycle of conflict but I'm not sure how to do it.  It is one-sided.  I am reasonable and respectful, loving, sometimes affectionate when she lets me, etc.  I'm just wondering if that is empowering her.  I don't see any type of behavior that shows fear on her part of being abandoned and it really doesn't add up with the other BPD behavior that are spot on.  I'd like to give this one more shot but things need to die down.  I think I should stop the affection and I love you's and just stay away from the house aside from kids in the morning and night.  I don't want to remove myself from the house for many reasons but the insanity must stop.  If I get rage texts or rude texts I'm simply going to ignore them.  S.E.T. is going nowhere with this woman, in fact she appears to feel more justified by validation and brings up her POV even more.  The only communication I think I should allow is stuff about bills and kids.  Thoughts?

[Verbena]

I agree with others that No Contact is impossible if you are living in the house and have children living with you.  Low Contact is possible, though, and it sounds like that's what you have already.  You may need to move to Very Low Contact, communicating with her only when it concerns the kids or the logistics of the household. Any extra contact you have with her outside what is truly necessary will only give her license to act out and bait you into conflicts.  

Our children are grown and gone, but I practice VERY Low Contact with my H of 32 years.  We sleep in different rooms and I limit my conversations with him to  only what is necessary.  He doesn't like it and it makes him even angrier, but he rufuses to accept that I am not okay anymore with the constant negativity, miserable attitude, and seething anger over anything and everything.  He doesn't see himself that way at all and won't even discuss it, much less change it.  

Very Low Contact may be the only way for you to go at the moment.   As long as you have any connection to her--and you always will because you have children together--the conflicts won't ever end.  The goal is to just reduce them as much as possible. It's hard to fight with someone who won't play the game anymore.   

[BestVersionOfMe]

I agree with others that No Contact is impossible if you are living in the house and have children living with you.  Low Contact is possible, though, and it sounds like that's what you have already.  You may need to move to Very Low Contact, communicating with her only when it concerns the kids or the logistics of the household. Any extra contact you have with her outside what is truly necessary will only give her license to act out and bait you into conflicts.  

Our children are grown and gone, but I practice VERY Low Contact with my H of 32 years.  We sleep in different rooms and I limit my conversations with him to  only what is necessary.  He doesn't like it and it makes him even angrier, but he rufuses to accept that I am not okay anymore with the constant negativity, miserable attitude, and seething anger over anything and everything.  He doesn't see himself that way at all and won't even discuss it, much less change it.  

Very Low Contact may be the only way for you to go at the moment.   As long as you have any connection to her--and you always will because you have children together--the conflicts won't ever end.  The goal is to just reduce them as much as possible. It's hard to fight with someone who won't play the game anymore.   

Yep has to be this way for now.  My wife also refuses to accept that I'm not okay with her constant negativity, horrible attitude, and vicious texts.  She has no doubt in her mind I'm the cause of all of her problems and has confirmed with others that I've "ruined her life."  Her conviction about this is truly remarkable.  I guess that is why radical acceptance is so important. To be honest the time spent on the couch at night watching TV isn't bad at all.  Mostly quiet and we comment on whatever we are watching or sometimes laugh.  If I remove that time during the day I don't know that it will improve things or not.  Anybody else have a borderline that doesn't show any signs of fearing abandonment?  Mine sure puts on a good show in that regard.  I was speaking with a mutual friend last night and she told me that my wife shut her out and won't talk about anything.  I think the only person she has contact with is a ultra woman power chick who openly talks about her husband in a negative manner.  I think she is seeking validation only from those that will give it to her in the way she wants to confirm her POV.  What I will say is that during the past two weeks, prior to the blow up from yesterday, I still pursued her.  I won't anymore.  I honestly think it just empowers her to be even more withdrawn and angry. 

[Verbena]

BestVersionofMe,

Is your wife aware she has BPD?  Is it something you discuss?  She sounds similar to my husband in that she prefers being angry and critical and negative, but I can honestly say my husband does not fit the criteria for BPD. Our daughter definitely does and has been diagnosed although today, ten years later, she denies that.  Anyway, even if my husband did clearly have this disorder, it wouldn't matter because he would never be accountable for the way he behaves and CERTAINLY would not agree there is anything wrong with him. 

I agree that being angry and miserable can be empowering for people like your wife and my husband.  It's all they know.  It's normal for them.  My husband can switch in a split second into a pleasant person when he has to with other people (never with me anymore), so that tells me there has to be awareness.  Yet, he appears shocked when I verbalize my perception of his behavior.  He just doesn't know what I'm talking about, can't remember, whatever. 

Does your wife have a different persona around other people?  IN other words, does she hide the negativity and anger from others?  My H is eerily good at this, and yet many people have seen how he is and commented on it over the years.  I have told him this and he has no comment. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

BestVersionofMe,

Is your wife aware she has BPD?  Is it something you discuss?  She sounds similar to my husband in that she prefers being angry and critical and negative, but I can honestly say my husband does not fit the criteria for BPD. Our daughter definitely does and has been diagnosed although today, ten years later, she denies that.  Anyway, even if my husband did clearly have this disorder, it wouldn't matter because he would never be accountable for the way he behaves and CERTAINLY would not agree there is anything wrong with him. 

I agree that being angry and miserable can be empowering for people like your wife and my husband.  It's all they know.  It's normal for them.  My husband can switch in a split second into a pleasant person when he has to with other people (never with me anymore), so that tells me there has to be awareness.  Yet, he appears shocked when I verbalize my perception of his behavior.  He just doesn't know what I'm talking about, can't remember, whatever. 

Does your wife have a different persona around other people?  IN other words, does she hide the negativity and anger from others?  My H is eerily good at this, and yet many people have seen how he is and commented on it over the years.  I have told him this and he has no comment. 

Yep her public image is a person that is fun and loud.  Know one knows her.  People that do know her dirty little secret she distances herself from.  It is all a sham.  This is why I think she hasn't ever followed through with divorce, it would permanently wreck the image that she wants.  She tries hard at making this image real from the way she works out, to how she dresses, to how she acts, to how she does over the top school projects so that my children's teachers think she is a great mom.  Behind it all is a negative, grumpy, angry depressed and emotionally stunted girl.  Her mom abused her her entire life and she has mentioned sexual abuse as a child by her "uncle".  She is damaged goods and thinks I'm the cause of all of her problems.  I brought up her having a PD one time in a fight and she brings it up that it must be me, not her.  I'm quite certain her mother is BPD and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. 

[vortex of confusion]

I think she is seeking validation only from those that will give it to her in the way she wants to confirm her POV.  What I will say is that during the past two weeks, prior to the blow up from yesterday, I still pursued her.  I won't anymore.  I honestly think it just empowers her to be even more withdrawn and angry. 

I have a couple of thoughts as I have dealt with some of the same stuff.

First, STOP pursuing her. I don't know about empowerment but it definitely sends the message that she can do whatever she wants and get away with it so to speak. I chased my husband for years. I kept thinking that maybe things would be better if I could somehow figure out some kind of magic formula to help him feel better. If I was a better wife or a better something, then maybe he wouldn't be so negative and unhappy. It wasn't until I stopped pursuing him and started setting boundaries that things started to improve a little. And, I cut way down and even stopped saying "I love you" for a brief period of time. He wanted to push me away and be a jerk so I changed my behavior on my side of things.

Mine also talked a lot about divorce. Really, both of us did and it was all talk. He quit talking about it when I started taking him seriously. At one point, he said, "Maybe we should get a divorce." So, I responded with, "Okay, then we need to start moving towards that. We need to see who is going to pay what bills. I need to put all of my checks in my account so I can get a better idea of how much I am going to have to work with on my own." I got very practical and he responded, "I see you have been planning this for a while." I didn't take the bait and simply said, "No, I haven't been planning this. You said you wanted a divorce so I am trying to be very practical and figure out how to do it." He backed down rather quickly and has said that we have to wait a while before we can even consider such a thing.

At some point, I think I told him that I did not want to be with somebody that didn't want to be with me.

What do you think your wife would say if you wanted to go see a counselor or therapist?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I think she is seeking validation only from those that will give it to her in the way she wants to confirm her POV.  What I will say is that during the past two weeks, prior to the blow up from yesterday, I still pursued her.  I won't anymore.  I honestly think it just empowers her to be even more withdrawn and angry. 

I have a couple of thoughts as I have dealt with some of the same stuff.

First, STOP pursuing her. I don't know about empowerment but it definitely sends the message that she can do whatever she wants and get away with it so to speak. I chased my husband for years. I kept thinking that maybe things would be better if I could somehow figure out some kind of magic formula to help him feel better. If I was a better wife or a better something, then maybe he wouldn't be so negative and unhappy. It wasn't until I stopped pursuing him and started setting boundaries that things started to improve a little. And, I cut way down and even stopped saying "I love you" for a brief period of time. He wanted to push me away and be a jerk so I changed my behavior on my side of things.

Mine also talked a lot about divorce. Really, both of us did and it was all talk. He quit talking about it when I started taking him seriously. At one point, he said, "Maybe we should get a divorce." So, I responded with, "Okay, then we need to start moving towards that. We need to see who is going to pay what bills. I need to put all of my checks in my account so I can get a better idea of how much I am going to have to work with on my own." I got very practical and he responded, "I see you have been planning this for a while." I didn't take the bait and simply said, "No, I haven't been planning this. You said you wanted a divorce so I am trying to be very practical and figure out how to do it." He backed down rather quickly and has said that we have to wait a while before we can even consider such a thing.

At some point, I think I told him that I did not want to be with somebody that didn't want to be with me.

What do you think your wife would say if you wanted to go see a counselor or therapist?

This is good confirmation about my plan to stop pursuing so thank you.  We've both threatened divorce a bunch of times.  We have been to see a therapist.  It was pointless because her reason for going was to manipulate the therapist into making it about me.  She played the victim role to perfection.  What I will say is that I've not done a great job of being the provider for the family that I should and that is on me.  Worries of money are a massive trigger for her so I'm been crushing it and things are getting so much better so I think the combination of not pursuing and her feeling more secure about how we pay bills will greatly calm things down.  I work for myself so if I work harder and sell more rather than spending my time worrying about her I can make a lot more money very quickly which is proving to be true this time as well.  I'm fortunate to be able to to that.  Last time my wife threatened divorce I said, go ahead.  I'm working on me, to be the best version of me that I can and either you can come along for the ride or not, it makes no difference to me.  So of course she hasn't done a damn thing, never has. 

[vortex of confusion]

We have been to see a therapist.  It was pointless because her reason for going was to manipulate the therapist into making it about me.  She played the victim role to perfection.

I hear that is quite common. And, it is also quite common for the therapist to focus more on the partner that is actually willing and able to do something. As much as it stinks to admit, I am a big part of the problem. A lot of the stuff going on with my husband IS about me. It is about me because I have allowed him to treat me like crap. I have not set boundaries. I let myself get caught up in his negativity and BS for years. I CAN take ownership of that and I can try to find ways to stop it. I know my husband is great at playing the victim. He doesn't blame me as much as he blames his FOO, religion, and who knows what else. The funny thing is that when I started trying to step up at admit my role in things, he wanted to argue with me and say that it was all his fault. It is really friggin' messed up.

What I will say is that I've not done a great job of being the provider for the family that I should and that is on me.  Worries of money are a massive trigger for her so I'm been crushing it and things are getting so much better so I think the combination of not pursuing and her feeling more secure about how we pay bills will greatly calm things down. 

I am going to ask a question that may or may not be relevant. Why is it your job to be the provider? Is she a stay at home mom? Have the two of you agreed that it is your responsibility to be the provider? Or, is it an unspoken expectation?

I work for myself so if I work harder and sell more rather than spending my time worrying about her I can make a lot more money very quickly which is proving to be true this time as well.  I'm fortunate to be able to to that.  Last time my wife threatened divorce I said, go ahead.  I'm working on me, to be the best version of me that I can and either you can come along for the ride or not, it makes no difference to me.  So of course she hasn't done a damn thing, never has. 

How long have you two been married? I don't recall seeing that. I have been with my husband for 16.5 years and it has been the same cycle over and over again. For the longest time, he didn't do a damn thing either. He would ignore my complaints. Get snotty with me over the smallest stuff and it was a giant cesspool of crapulence. Stop worrying so much about her. Focus on your business. Focus on doing stuff with your kids. Focus on doing stuff with your friends. She will either stand on the sidelines griping and complaining or she will chill out and come along. Or, she might actually leave. The key is to get to a place where you are okay with any of those options. I am still trying to get there and I am still trying to figure out why I have allowed myself to be treated like this. I am trying to focus on me rather than worrying so much about what he is or isn't doing. It isn't easy that is for sure.

[Turkish]

I did LC/VLC for the months it took for my Ex to leave. We only had 3 arguments in that period, and the last one was on the night of a second burglary where our home was ransacked and multiple windows broken, so the stress level that night was pretty high. It devolved into mutual JADEing, not good, so I finally stopped the argument after 10 mins. FWIW, I usually went into my room to read after the kids were in bed, and she either was on the couch, or out. I did not want to spend any time with her, though she tried now and then to with me until I consistently enforced my boundary.

My plan, however, was with an end in sight, even if it turned out to be "if I don't find a place in a month and a half, I'll leave and go somewhere," which turned into two more months until she finally was able to leave, awaiting subsidized housing. It was just business regarding the kids or whatever household things needed tending to, which I started taking care of more. I rarely ate at the same table as she did even. That plan seemed to work for a breakup. I can't imagine living like this long term.

While it's a plan to keep distance in the short term, I don't see how this is going to work in the long term, and either way, the kids will pick up on it. What's your end goal here?

[BestVersionOfMe]

I did LC/VLC for the months it took for my Ex to leave. We only had 3 arguments in that period, and the last one was on the night of a second burglary where our home was ransacked and multiple windows broken, so the stress level that night was pretty high. It devolved into mutual JADEing, not good, so I finally stopped the argument after 10 mins. FWIW, I usually went into my room to read after the kids were in bed, and she either was on the couch, or out. I did not want to spend any time with her, though she tried now and then to with me until I consistently enforced my boundary.

My plan, however, was with an end in sight, even if it turned out to be "if I don't find a place in a month and a half, I'll leave and go somewhere," which turned into two more months until she finally was able to leave, awaiting subsidized housing. It was just business regarding the kids or whatever household things needed tending to, which I started taking care of more. I rarely ate at the same table as she did even. That plan seemed to work for a breakup. I can't imagine living like this long term.

While it's a plan to keep distance in the short term, I don't see how this is going to work in the long term, and either way, the kids will pick up on it. What's your end goal here?

End goal is not to go VLC forever, but it is to diffuse the rage and anger at me.  I'm working on myself and these rage episodes really cause me a lot of unnecessary pain at the moment.  After that I simply just don't know where things will go. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

We have been to see a therapist.  It was pointless because her reason for going was to manipulate the therapist into making it about me.  She played the victim role to perfection.

I hear that is quite common. And, it is also quite common for the therapist to focus more on the partner that is actually willing and able to do something. As much as it stinks to admit, I am a big part of the problem. A lot of the stuff going on with my husband IS about me. It is about me because I have allowed him to treat me like crap. I have not set boundaries. I let myself get caught up in his negativity and BS for years. I CAN take ownership of that and I can try to find ways to stop it. I know my husband is great at playing the victim. He doesn't blame me as much as he blames his FOO, religion, and who knows what else. The funny thing is that when I started trying to step up at admit my role in things, he wanted to argue with me and say that it was all his fault. It is really friggin' messed up.

What I will say is that I've not done a great job of being the provider for the family that I should and that is on me.  Worries of money are a massive trigger for her so I'm been crushing it and things are getting so much better so I think the combination of not pursuing and her feeling more secure about how we pay bills will greatly calm things down. 

I am going to ask a question that may or may not be relevant. Why is it your job to be the provider? Is she a stay at home mom? Have the two of you agreed that it is your responsibility to be the provider? Or, is it an unspoken expectation?

I work for myself so if I work harder and sell more rather than spending my time worrying about her I can make a lot more money very quickly which is proving to be true this time as well.  I'm fortunate to be able to to that.  Last time my wife threatened divorce I said, go ahead.  I'm working on me, to be the best version of me that I can and either you can come along for the ride or not, it makes no difference to me.  So of course she hasn't done a damn thing, never has. 

How long have you two been married? I don't recall seeing that. I have been with my husband for 16.5 years and it has been the same cycle over and over again. For the longest time, he didn't do a damn thing either. He would ignore my complaints. Get snotty with me over the smallest stuff and it was a giant cesspool of crapulence. Stop worrying so much about her. Focus on your business. Focus on doing stuff with your kids. Focus on doing stuff with your friends. She will either stand on the sidelines griping and complaining or she will chill out and come along. Or, she might actually leave. The key is to get to a place where you are okay with any of those options. I am still trying to get there and I am still trying to figure out why I have allowed myself to be treated like this. I am trying to focus on me rather than worrying so much about what he is or isn't doing. It isn't easy that is for sure.

We have 3 kids and yes we both committed to her being a SAHM and me working full time.  It's not just the money, it is the finances and being irresponsible and not making sure we had a plan in place to live a secure life.  Lot's of highs and lows, definitely on me, not her.  I'm changing that now.  12 years.  I identified this behavior about 6 years ago, but I didn't know what was going on until recently.  I'm with you, it is hard to not worry about what she is doing but I'm trying to get there.  I'm trying to be happy because that is what I want regardless of her negativity or pea-cocking attitude.  I choose to be happy, that is my choice.  I have a lot of friends and I'm doing my best to spend more time with them regardless of what she is doing.  It is a rebuilding process however because I lost myself and stopped hanging out with most.  Making more money for me is something that will open up a lot of doors for me.  I'll feel better.  My triggered wife will feel better.  I must say things are always better when there is plenty of money and horrible when things are tight.  She grew up with very little so I can only assume that is a huge deal for her.  Day by day, little by little.  I have another post that is called "Best Version of Me".

[BestVersionOfMe]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

[Turkish]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

BVOM,

While you are doing what you need to to in order to protect yourself, how do you think your plan of VLC is going to play out in the long run? Does it actually sound like a relationship, or two ships passing in the night, as it were? How do you imagine this progressing as the year continues?

pwBPD react adversely to fear of abandonment, real or imagined. While you're not responsible for her feelings, a relationship involves two people. What do you think are realistic outcomes here?

[BestVersionOfMe]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

BVOM,

While you are doing what you need to to in order to protect yourself, how do you think your plan of VLC is going to play out in the long run? Does it actually sound like a relationship, or two ships passing in the night, as it were? How do you imagine this progressing as the year continues?

pwBPD react adversely to fear of abandonment, real or imagined. While you're not responsible for her feelings, a relationship involves two people. What do you think are realistic outcomes here?

I don't know anymore.  I feel like I want to give it one more shot after the conflict dies down, are you saying that me detaching is going to stifle that shot?  Perhaps I just need strength to leave.  Part of me wants to expose her to the world and to get 100% custody of the kids and make her feel the pain she has caused me all these years.  The abandonment, the withholding of every basic human emotion, the abuse.  I want her to go on a run one day and NEVER come back here so I can replace her with someone that wants a mutually beneficial relationship.  On the flip side I sometimes just miss her.  I miss her so badly.  I think deep down I am starting to come to terms with the fact that the girl I loved is long gone.  She is gone forever and never coming back and no matter how much I want her to come back she simply won't.  Why me?  Why did I choose her?  Why didn't I choose another woman that is kind and nice and that doesn't want to hurt me so much?  It is a battle between hate and sadness right now and when the hate takes over it will be done.  I will stop loving her and I'll do what I know needs to be done deep down.  I'm just not ready yet but I want to be.

[Turkish]

Wife took off at 4:45 and is still out.  She had to go do an exchange and is grocery shopping.  What is my problem?  Why am I bothered that she is gone this entire time.  She wants to get away from me, it makes sense, but none of this is in my control so what is the stupid feeling I have in the pit of my stomach.  I must gut check myself and realize that she is interpreting our relationship in a way that is irrational.  I'm a monster.  I'm crazy, abusive, and controlling.  In reality she is so why am I having such a hard time coming to terms that this isn't about me?

BVOM,

While you are doing what you need to to in order to protect yourself, how do you think your plan of VLC is going to play out in the long run? Does it actually sound like a relationship, or two ships passing in the night, as it were? How do you imagine this progressing as the year continues?

pwBPD react adversely to fear of abandonment, real or imagined. While you're not responsible for her feelings, a relationship involves two people. What do you think are realistic outcomes here?

I don't know anymore.  I feel like I want to give it one more shot after the conflict dies down, are you saying that me detaching is going to stifle that shot?

Detaching is detaching, Best. PD or not, from some things there is no going back. NC for Leavers isn't even an end unto itself; it's a stage of detachment.

Perhaps I just need strength to leave.  Part of me wants to expose her to the world and to get 100% custody of the kids and make her feel the pain she has caused me all these years.  The abandonment, the withholding of every basic human emotion, the abuse.  I want her to go on a run one day and NEVER come back here so I can replace her with someone that wants a mutually beneficial relationship.  On the flip side I sometimes just miss her.  I miss her so badly.  I think deep down I am starting to come to terms with the fact that the girl I loved is long gone.  She is gone forever and never coming back and no matter how much I want her to come back she simply won't.  Why me?  Why did I choose her?  Why didn't I choose another woman that is kind and nice and that doesn't want to hurt me so much?  It is a battle between hate and sadness right now and when the hate takes over it will be done.  I will stop loving her and I'll do what I know needs to be done deep down.  I'm just not ready yet but I want to be.

You're in a lot of pain, BVOM, and exposing what many of us go through or have been through is seeking validation of that pain. I get that, and part of me still wishes she had fought for custody so i could have exposed her. I have no idea how that would have played out there than causing more pain.

You still love her, however, and it sounds like you don't know what to do. All I'm saying at this point is that detaching to me is emotionally leaving. I did it,.and the consequences were unavoidable.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Here comes the pea-cocking by wifey.  Just a subtle "I'm stronger than you" show of fake strength.  At least I know what it is and what it is designed for.  It is to make me uncomfortable and leave the house.  That ain't gonna happen.  I'm stronger than her now so no amount of fake toughness is gonna do anything, in fact I'm gonna work in the house today because I know she'll leave.  This about me and what I want and what I want is to remain in this house with the kids.  I learned this from my old business partner who was stealing from me.  He pea-cocked in the office and eventually I just packed my stuff up and left.  That was a sign of weakness to him and it made him more aggressive.  You can't back down from these people, you have to stand your ground calmly but confidently.  Btw, last night was total silence.  We watched our shows and shared some wine but no conversation at all. 

[vortex of confusion]

Here comes the pea-cocking by wifey.  Just a subtle "I'm stronger than you" show of fake strength.  At least I know what it is and what it is designed for.  It is to make me uncomfortable and leave the house.  That ain't gonna happen.  I'm stronger than her now so no amount of fake toughness is gonna do anything, in fact I'm gonna work in the house today because I know she'll leave.

If your goal is to stay and try to limit conflict, this isn't the way to make it happen. I had to step away from the power play stuff. It isn't about me being stronger or weaker. I had to take that out of the equation. If you want to work in the house, work in the house. Don't work in the house to make her leave. That sounds very jerkish. Do what YOU want to do and set boundaries to protect yourself. Don't make decisions based on what she will or won't do.

Turkish brings up some good things to think about with regards to detachment. If your ultimate goal is to leave, detachment is probably a great way to go. If you want to stay, then it is probably best to focus on becoming unenmeshed. If your wife is out at the store and you are bothered, then that is on you. You need to get to a point where her being out isn't a big deal. I want a relationship where we both have things that we do. I want to feel like my own person rather than just an extension of my husband. And I want my husband to feel like his own person rather than just an extension of me. It is the codependent dance of being completely enmeshed. When completely enmeshed, it is soo easy to take everything your partner does personally. It is so easy to be bothered when your partner does something normal. I have been working on stepping away from all of that.

I have no idea what the ultimate outcome of all of this will be. I do know that it feels like my husband and I have basically separated while still living together. It has been a long hard road and I still don't know what the outcome will be. At one point, I kind of diffused things by saying something along the lines of, "I don't care whose fault all of this is. All I want is peace. I want our kids to grow up in a peaceful household with a mom and a dad. Aside from that, I am tired. I am tired of all of this BS." When I started approaching it from that angle, things have slowly changed.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Here comes the pea-cocking by wifey.  Just a subtle "I'm stronger than you" show of fake strength.  At least I know what it is and what it is designed for.  It is to make me uncomfortable and leave the house.  That ain't gonna happen.  I'm stronger than her now so no amount of fake toughness is gonna do anything, in fact I'm gonna work in the house today because I know she'll leave.

If your goal is to stay and try to limit conflict, this isn't the way to make it happen. I had to step away from the power play stuff. It isn't about me being stronger or weaker. I had to take that out of the equation. If you want to work in the house, work in the house. Don't work in the house to make her leave. That sounds very jerkish. Do what YOU want to do and set boundaries to protect yourself. Don't make decisions based on what she will or won't do.

Turkish brings up some good things to think about with regards to detachment. If your ultimate goal is to leave, detachment is probably a great way to go. If you want to stay, then it is probably best to focus on becoming unenmeshed. If your wife is out at the store and you are bothered, then that is on you. You need to get to a point where her being out isn't a big deal. I want a relationship where we both have things that we do. I want to feel like my own person rather than just an extension of my husband. And I want my husband to feel like his own person rather than just an extension of me. It is the codependent dance of being completely enmeshed. When completely enmeshed, it is soo easy to take everything your partner does personally. It is so easy to be bothered when your partner does something normal. I have been working on stepping away from all of that.

I have no idea what the ultimate outcome of all of this will be. I do know that it feels like my husband and I have basically separated while still living together. It has been a long hard road and I still don't know what the outcome will be. At one point, I kind of diffused things by saying something along the lines of, "I don't care whose fault all of this is. All I want is peace. I want our kids to grow up in a peaceful household with a mom and a dad. Aside from that, I am tired. I am tired of all of this BS." When I started approaching it from that angle, things have slowly changed.

I guess that is the issue, I don't know where I want to take this.  I'm 42, successful, attractive and want love, but if I could find a way to bring the relationship with my wife to a place that is somewhat reasonable and keep the family together then I will put in the effort to do so, even if the chances are very slim.  In fact if it weren't for my Pastor I think I would have left her already.  I'm tired of the BS too.  It is ridiculous, as in complete insanity.  When you said things have slowly changed, how so?  As in things are better?  Tolerable?

[vortex of confusion]

I guess that is the issue, I don't know where I want to take this.  I'm 42, successful, attractive and want love, but if I could find a way to bring the relationship with my wife to a place that is somewhat reasonable and keep the family together then I will put in the effort to do so, even if the chances are very slim.  In fact if it weren't for my Pastor I think I would have left her already.  I'm tired of the BS too.  It is ridiculous, as in complete insanity.  When you said things have slowly changed, how so?  As in things are better?  Tolerable?

Things have slowly changed because I feel like I have gotten better control of myself. I am not as reactive to the stuff that he says or does. That is huge because I used to feel like a ball in a pinball machine bouncing from one reaction to another because of the things that my husband said or did. I hinged pretty much everything I did on him: what he wanted, what he was doing, what he was saying, and how he was acting. Sure, he still irritates the snot out of me at times but I am not reacting to it and I am not taking it personally.

And, some things have changed because he is in a 12 step program and has sought counseling. Even before he became invested in that stuff, things were starting to change because I was trying to find ways to end the cycle of conflict that we were in. I have posted on the staying, the leaving, and the undecided boards because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do or where to go with stuff. There is a link in the Lesson on the Undecided forum called Stop the Bleeding: https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/01.htm

Before I could do anything at all, I had to figure out how to stop or minimize the conflict. That was priority number one. While I was trying to figure that out, I read through the lessons and tried to figure out my role, his role, and what the heck was going on. My kids knew that things were messed up and they weren't happy. Our whole house was a cesspool of crapulence. Right now, my husband and I are still undecided as to the direction of our marriage and relationship. We both agree that we both need to work on ourselves. He is working on his stuff and I am working on my stuff with the hopes that once we each get ourselves in order, things will be more clear.

I do want to comment on the fact that your wife is a stay at home mom. That is very stressful and isolating. Does she have fun stuff that she can do outside of the house away from you and the kids? Do her outside activities include things other than going to the grocery store? If not, perhaps you can encourage her to do more things for herself. As a stay at home/work at home mom, there are times when it is so very lonely when days are filled with diapers and food and caring for the family. It is really easy to lose your identity and become angry and lash out at those around you. I fell into that trap for a while but I didn't know how to talk about it. The mommy wars make it really difficult for stay at home moms to find real support and real validation. If you add something like BPD or other mental issues, then it becomes a real hornets nest.

[BestVersionOfMe]

I guess that is the issue, I don't know where I want to take this.  I'm 42, successful, attractive and want love, but if I could find a way to bring the relationship with my wife to a place that is somewhat reasonable and keep the family together then I will put in the effort to do so, even if the chances are very slim.  In fact if it weren't for my Pastor I think I would have left her already.  I'm tired of the BS too.  It is ridiculous, as in complete insanity.  When you said things have slowly changed, how so?  As in things are better?  Tolerable?

Things have slowly changed because I feel like I have gotten better control of myself. I am not as reactive to the stuff that he says or does. That is huge because I used to feel like a ball in a pinball machine bouncing from one reaction to another because of the things that my husband said or did. I hinged pretty much everything I did on him: what he wanted, what he was doing, what he was saying, and how he was acting. Sure, he still irritates the snot out of me at times but I am not reacting to it and I am not taking it personally.

And, some things have changed because he is in a 12 step program and has sought counseling. Even before he became invested in that stuff, things were starting to change because I was trying to find ways to end the cycle of conflict that we were in. I have posted on the staying, the leaving, and the undecided boards because I wasn't sure what I wanted to do or where to go with stuff. There is a link in the Lesson on the Undecided forum called Stop the Bleeding: https://bpdfamily.com/deciding_guide/01.htm

Before I could do anything at all, I had to figure out how to stop or minimize the conflict. That was priority number one. While I was trying to figure that out, I read through the lessons and tried to figure out my role, his role, and what the heck was going on. My kids knew that things were messed up and they weren't happy. Our whole house was a cesspool of crapulence. Right now, my husband and I are still undecided as to the direction of our marriage and relationship. We both agree that we both need to work on ourselves. He is working on his stuff and I am working on my stuff with the hopes that once we each get ourselves in order, things will be more clear.

I do want to comment on the fact that your wife is a stay at home mom. That is very stressful and isolating. Does she have fun stuff that she can do outside of the house away from you and the kids? Do her outside activities include things other than going to the grocery store? If not, perhaps you can encourage her to do more things for herself. As a stay at home/work at home mom, there are times when it is so very lonely when days are filled with diapers and food and caring for the family. It is really easy to lose your identity and become angry and lash out at those around you. I fell into that trap for a while but I didn't know how to talk about it. The mommy wars make it really difficult for stay at home moms to find real support and real validation. If you add something like BPD or other mental issues, then it becomes a real hornets nest.

I can see that.  My wife isn't a substance abuser, in fact I'm more prone to drinking when we fight a lot because I hate conflict.  All in all we are two very fit people that run and workout with our friends.  My wife works out or runs daily.  She has a large group of friends and our kids are 10, 8, and 4.  I honestly can't give her a pass on the SAHM part.  I get the kids up, cook breakfast, and nearly all dinners.  I am very hands on and involved in homework, coaching of the sports teams, etc.  My wife is concerned with appearance and what people think of her, in fact in observing her actions it seems nothing else matters.  She wants to be the hot, fit, SAHM just like all the other mommies in this neighborhood.  This is  her "identity" and I think the only reason she hasn't divorced me is because she desperately wants that identity.  My wife's parents are foreign, as in middle eastern, so I think a big part of what drives her is to distance herself from what she sees her parents as and become something entirely different.  She hates being compared to her mother.  Her mother is abusive and awful and never has anything nice to say.  As much as my wife wants to pretend she is nothing like her mother, the truth is she has turned into her mother. 

[Turkish]

My Ex went back to work after D2 was born. After that, I can only count the weekend days on one hand where she was the one to get up at 5:30-6AM to take care of then D0-1, and around 8AM, I would take care of then S2-3. I would do the usual: diaper changes, bottle, breakfast, laundry, and I would sometimes make breakfast for their mom and serve it to her in bed. I tried for a year to get her to go to bed earlier, but to no avail. She always needed more sleep than I did anyway (probably to reset her brain).

I grew to resent her for this, especially with her sometimes getting up and going on cleaning "rampages," and only sometimes apologizing later for her behavior (I think it was a FOO trigger for her). What I think I did wrong is that I never communicated my resentment, but she sure grew to feel it. I think in a way I was being passive-aggressive, and she often accused me of being a "bad communicator." There was probably some truth to that since I prefer to be avoidant in the face of anger, or possible anger.

As for the cultural issues, I had those in the mix as well, and that's tough.

Do you feel avoidant?

[BestVersionOfMe]

My Ex went back to work after D2 was born. After that, I can only count the weekend days on one hand where she was the one to get up at 5:30-6AM to take care of then D0-1, and around 8AM, I would take care of then S2-3. I would do the usual: diaper changes, bottle, breakfast, laundry, and I would sometimes make breakfast for their mom and serve it to her in bed. I tried for a year to get her to go to bed earlier, but to no avail. She always needed more sleep than I did anyway (probably to reset her brain).

I grew to resent her for this, especially with her sometimes getting up and going on cleaning "rampages," and only sometimes apologizing later for her behavior (I think it was a FOO trigger for her). What I think I did wrong is that I never communicated my resentment, but she sure grew to feel it. I think in a way I was being passive-aggressive, and she often accused me of being a "bad communicator." There was probably some truth to that since I prefer to be avoidant in the face of anger, or possible anger.

As for the cultural issues, I had those in the mix as well, and that's tough.

Do you feel avoidant?

This is one of her big issues with me is that I don't express my feelings.  Problem is when I express my feelings she rages, gaslights, denies, rejects, etc.  So for awhile I just stopped.  My silence now is probably making her think more of the same from me.  In reality I'm just not engaging anymore.  For example, I just stopped by the house really quick and left.  We didn't speak.  After I left she sent me a text saying, "Can you make sure and text me next time you plan on coming home?"  I didn't respond.  This is what I refer to as her "fake boundaries" that she pulls.  A double bind if you will.  If I agree to her fake boundary she gets her control.  If I don't respect it she says that I don't respect her "boundaries."  Coming and going from my own home is not a "boundary" so I just ignored it entirely, didn't respond and I'll continue coming and going when I please.  I'm I being fair here?  When I got the text I had that sinking feeling, as if I'm being outmatched and abused by a one line text.  If I did what I felt I'd respond back with a nasty text.  I can't validate her request, no chance.  I have a lot to learn about validation.  I stopped trying, it was causing more problems than it helped. 

[vortex of confusion]

This is one of her big issues with me is that I don't express my feelings.  Problem is when I express my feelings she rages, gaslights, denies, rejects, etc.  So for awhile I just stopped.  My silence now is probably making her think more of the same from me.  In reality I'm just not engaging anymore. 

Have you clearly expressed that to her? I know it is difficult to do. At some point, it is helpful if you can find a way to say, "You know. You are right. I don't express my feelings. I don't express my feelings because I am afraid to do it." I have had that conversation with my spouse on several occasions. He asked why I was afraid so I told him. That led to him saying that he didn't interrupt or rage or blah, blah, blah. It wasn't pretty. It was kind of comical at one point because he interrupted me to rage at me because he does NOT interrupt me. He didn't like it when I calmly pointed that out. I am finally learning how to end conversations and tell him something along the lines of, "I am not going to have this conversation with you unless we can do it peacefully." (Or something like that. It takes a heck of a lot to try to have conversations without getting sucked into the madness. It takes a lot of practice and effort.)

For example, I just stopped by the house really quick and left.  We didn't speak.  After I left she sent me a text saying, "Can you make sure and text me next time you plan on coming home?"  I didn't respond.  This is what I refer to as her "fake boundaries" that she pulls. 

Stop right there! Boundaries are not about control. Boundaries are about protecting oneself. Asking somebody to text and let you know that you are on your way home sounds perfectly reasonable. In my experience, a lot of people with mental issues rely on predictability. To you and me, showing up unannounced may not seem like a big deal. To them, it can throw off the whole day. For example, I called my husband at lunch and he was upset and acted like his day had been ruined. I found out that somebody had parked in his parking spot. Yes, it is frustrating but it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I grew up with parents that had a business and there was no predictability at all so little stuff like that doesn't make sense to me. It helps for me to understand my husband's need for predictability and honor that when I can rather than dismissing them as "fake boundaries". I don't have to understand another person's boundaries for them to be real.

A double bind if you will.  If I agree to her fake boundary she gets her control.  If I don't respect it she says that I don't respect her "boundaries."  Coming and going from my own home is not a "boundary" so I just ignored it entirely, didn't respond and I'll continue coming and going when I please.  I'm I being fair here?  When I got the text I had that sinking feeling, as if I'm being outmatched and abused by a one line text.  If I did what I felt I'd respond back with a nasty text.  I can't validate her request, no chance.  I have a lot to learn about validation.  I stopped trying, it was causing more problems than it helped. 

I am going to repeat that boundaries are NOT about control. They are about protecting oneself. Why can't you validate her need for some kind of predictability? I have seen numerous accounts of people with BPD hating surprises, even good ones. There was a thread not too long ago about how even a surprise birthday party can cause all kinds of drama. It isn't about you. This is about her need to know when somebody is going to show up at the house. Is she asking you to NOT come home or is she asking you to let her know? Big difference.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[BestVersionOfMe]

This is one of her big issues with me is that I don't express my feelings.  Problem is when I express my feelings she rages, gaslights, denies, rejects, etc.  So for awhile I just stopped.  My silence now is probably making her think more of the same from me.  In reality I'm just not engaging anymore.

Have you clearly expressed that to her? I know it is difficult to do. At some point, it is helpful if you can find a way to say, "You know. You are right. I don't express my feelings. I don't express my feelings because I am afraid to do it." I have had that conversation with my spouse on several occasions. He asked why I was afraid so I told him. That led to him saying that he didn't interrupt or rage or blah, blah, blah. It wasn't pretty. It was kind of comical at one point because he interrupted me to rage at me because he does NOT interrupt me. He didn't like it when I calmly pointed that out. I am finally learning how to end conversations and tell him something along the lines of, "I am not going to have this conversation with you unless we can do it peacefully." (Or something like that. It takes a heck of a lot to try to have conversations without getting sucked into the madness. It takes a lot of practice and effort.)

For example, I just stopped by the house really quick and left.  We didn't speak.  After I left she sent me a text saying, "Can you make sure and text me next time you plan on coming home?"  I didn't respond.  This is what I refer to as her "fake boundaries" that she pulls.  

Stop right there! Boundaries are not about control. Boundaries are about protecting oneself. Asking somebody to text and let you know that you are on your way home sounds perfectly reasonable. In my experience, a lot of people with mental issues rely on predictability. To you and me, showing up unannounced may not seem like a big deal. To them, it can throw off the whole day. For example, I called my husband at lunch and he was upset and acted like his day had been ruined. I found out that somebody had parked in his parking spot. Yes, it is frustrating but it isn't a big deal in the grand scheme of things. I grew up with parents that had a business and there was no predictability at all so little stuff like that doesn't make sense to me. It helps for me to understand my husband's need for predictability and honor that when I can rather than dismissing them as "fake boundaries". I don't have to understand another person's boundaries for them to be real.

A double bind if you will.  If I agree to her fake boundary she gets her control.  If I don't respect it she says that I don't respect her "boundaries."  Coming and going from my own home is not a "boundary" so I just ignored it entirely, didn't respond and I'll continue coming and going when I please.  I'm I being fair here?  When I got the text I had that sinking feeling, as if I'm being outmatched and abused by a one line text.  If I did what I felt I'd respond back with a nasty text.  I can't validate her request, no chance.  I have a lot to learn about validation.  I stopped trying, it was causing more problems than it helped.  

I am going to repeat that boundaries are NOT about control. They are about protecting oneself. Why can't you validate her need for some kind of predictability? I have seen numerous accounts of people with BPD hating surprises, even good ones. There was a thread not too long ago about how even a surprise birthday party can cause all kinds of drama. It isn't about you. This is about her need to know when somebody is going to show up at the house. Is she asking you to NOT come home or is she asking you to let her know? Big difference.

She is aware of the reasons I don't express my feelings all the time, we discussed in therapy at length over and over like a dead horse.  I have had some conversations where I ended it because she wasn't peaceful although we are in such conflict now we don't speak.  I'm sure when it calms down we'll get back to that.  As far as fake boundaries go, I guess I never thought of it that way.  I felt it was about her trying to control me for sure, I guess you disagree.  And yes it isn't a big deal.  I texted her back and said, "I'd be happy to text you before I come home."  She replied, "Great thank you.  I don't feel like I have any privacy and that would help."   And yes she raged at me for throwing a surprise party for her last year.

[vortex of confusion]

She is aware of the reasons I don't express my feelings all the time, we discussed in therapy at length over and over like a dead horse.  I have had some conversations where I ended it because she wasn't peaceful although we are in such conflict now we don't speak.  I'm sure when it calms down we'll get back to that.

It might help to try to attempt some lighter conversation as a way to open the doors a bit. Don't do it until you think you are strong enough to put the brakes on and walk away if things aren't peaceful enough. Living like that for too long will do even more damage to the relationship and make it even harder to recover.

As far as fake boundaries go, I guess I never thought of it that way.  I felt it was about her trying to control me for sure, I guess you disagree.  And yes it isn't a big deal.  I texted her back and said, "I'd be happy to text you before I come home."  She replied, "Great thank you.  I don't feel like I have any privacy and that would help."   And yes she raged at me for throwing a surprise party for her last year.

When I was in the midst of the push/pull, I felt like everything my husband did was an attempt to control me. On the flip side, he felt like I was trying to control him and there were times that I did feel a bit controlling. I thought about everything in terms of him. I protested that the only person that I wanted to control was myself and that I could control myself if he would stop being such a jerk.   

I took everything personally without stopping to think that maybe it wasn't really about me at all. If your ultimate goal is to stay, then you will need to find a way to step out of that dynamic. Stop thinking about everything in terms of her and whether or not she is trying to control you. Try to assess things from a more detached standpoint. I think that is the type of detachment that has helped me most. I had to detach from the idea that this is/was all personal against me. I also had to stop and ask myself why I was doing certain things. If I am digging in my heals over something, why? Am I digging in my heals because I am in a power struggle or am I digging in my heals because this is something that is completely outside of my value system? I have been working really hard to get in touch with my own feelings rather than worrying so much about him. I can't begin to communicate my feelings to anybody if I am burying them and focusing on what my partner is doing.

It sounds like you got a good response to your text. That is progress.  This is some tough stuff to navigate.

[Notwendy]

Best version- I'm going to hopefully add a little perspective to this. I empathize with you as living with someone with BPD can be tough- my mom was tough to live with at times. If your wife has a mother with BPD and has been abused, then she really does experience a lot of painful feelings. Right now the two of you are in a cycle of conflict. If you can try to ease this a bit on your end, it may become a bit more peaceful.

You have friends that you do things with- like hiking. Does your wife have a chance to do things with friends or for herself? I have been a SAHM and it can feel isolating- even if your wife does things with her kids' schools. I see where you felt resentful when she went to the store, but is this the only time she has to get some time to herself? This was an issue with my marriage. My H worked hard, and I stayed home. I think he assumed I was having a nice relaxing time. He felt entitled to do what he wanted when he was off- do things with friends, pursue his hobbies. If I asked him to watch the kids, he would tell me it wasn't fair- that I had all day to myself. I love being with my kids, but I did lose my sense of self when I had no other outlets. I remember my H resenting me going to the store. I did not actually get much time to myself until my children were older.

For someone with a shaky sense of self, being a SAHM doesn't give you much validation. I looked to my H for that, and he was too resentful to give it. This may be part of why your wife feels bitter and also why she works so hard at school projects as a sense of self esteem. You are probably too angry now to put yourself in her shoes.

Growing up, I thought my mom was the crazy one- and she did have her share of behavior issues. It was not until I was older that I realized how invalidating her own family of origin was to her and how invalidated she felt with my father who was successful in his field, and nobody considered being a housewife to be anything special. She had a lot of rage and anger from her childhood and also from not feeling recognized for anything she did whether that was actually true or not. It felt true to her.

[Notwendy]

My hopes in posting another perspective is not to make one of you right or one wrong but in hopes that it may make some space for you to feel some empathy.

My H and I were in a high conflict cycle when we went to marriage T. One point she made towards diffusing it a little was that she hoped we would stay together, but in the case that we did not, we would still benefit from getting out of the cycle of conflict. Although we still have things to work on, it is better to not be in that angry place as much as we were and there are no plans to not stay together.

[BestVersionOfMe]

She is aware of the reasons I don't express my feelings all the time, we discussed in therapy at length over and over like a dead horse.  I have had some conversations where I ended it because she wasn't peaceful although we are in such conflict now we don't speak.  I'm sure when it calms down we'll get back to that.

It might help to try to attempt some lighter conversation as a way to open the doors a bit. Don't do it until you think you are strong enough to put the brakes on and walk away if things aren't peaceful enough. Living like that for too long will do even more damage to the relationship and make it even harder to recover.

As far as fake boundaries go, I guess I never thought of it that way.  I felt it was about her trying to control me for sure, I guess you disagree.  And yes it isn't a big deal.  I texted her back and said, "I'd be happy to text you before I come home."  She replied, "Great thank you.  I don't feel like I have any privacy and that would help."   And yes she raged at me for throwing a surprise party for her last year.

When I was in the midst of the push/pull, I felt like everything my husband did was an attempt to control me. On the flip side, he felt like I was trying to control him and there were times that I did feel a bit controlling. I thought about everything in terms of him. I protested that the only person that I wanted to control was myself and that I could control myself if he would stop being such a jerk.   

I took everything personally without stopping to think that maybe it wasn't really about me at all. If your ultimate goal is to stay, then you will need to find a way to step out of that dynamic. Stop thinking about everything in terms of her and whether or not she is trying to control you. Try to assess things from a more detached standpoint. I think that is the type of detachment that has helped me most. I had to detach from the idea that this is/was all personal against me. I also had to stop and ask myself why I was doing certain things. If I am digging in my heals over something, why? Am I digging in my heals because I am in a power struggle or am I digging in my heals because this is something that is completely outside of my value system? I have been working really hard to get in touch with my own feelings rather than worrying so much about him. I can't begin to communicate my feelings to anybody if I am burying them and focusing on what my partner is doing.

It sounds like you got a good response to your text. That is progress.  This is some tough stuff to navigate.

Agree on all.  Every word, every text, every email is carefully analyzed by me to see the hidden meaning.  Sometimes there is none, other times it doesn't matter, other times it really is something controlling and abusive.  You are correct about not being in touch with my feelings.  I don't even know what I feel sometimes.  Anger?  Grief?  Everything in my life over time began to take into account her feelings, or presumed feelings.  I can heal though and I will heal.  I see little changes already and I have to keep putting in the work and improve .01% every day. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

Best version- I'm going to hopefully add a little perspective to this. I empathize with you as living with someone with BPD can be tough- my mom was tough to live with at times. If your wife has a mother with BPD and has been abused, then she really does experience a lot of painful feelings. Right now the two of you are in a cycle of conflict. If you can try to ease this a bit on your end, it may become a bit more peaceful.

You have friends that you do things with- like hiking. Does your wife have a chance to do things with friends or for herself? I have been a SAHM and it can feel isolating- even if your wife does things with her kids' schools. I see where you felt resentful when she went to the store, but is this the only time she has to get some time to herself? This was an issue with my marriage. My H worked hard, and I stayed home. I think he assumed I was having a nice relaxing time. He felt entitled to do what he wanted when he was off- do things with friends, pursue his hobbies. If I asked him to watch the kids, he would tell me it wasn't fair- that I had all day to myself. I love being with my kids, but I did lose my sense of self when I had no other outlets. I remember my H resenting me going to the store. I did not actually get much time to myself until my children were older.

For someone with a shaky sense of self, being a SAHM doesn't give you much validation. I looked to my H for that, and he was too resentful to give it. This may be part of why your wife feels bitter and also why she works so hard at school projects as a sense of self esteem. You are probably too angry now to put yourself in her shoes.

Growing up, I thought my mom was the crazy one- and she did have her share of behavior issues. It was not until I was older that I realized how invalidating her own family of origin was to her and how invalidated she felt with my father who was successful in his field, and nobody considered being a housewife to be anything special. She had a lot of rage and anger from her childhood and also from not feeling recognized for anything she did whether that was actually true or not. It felt true to her.

As I mentioned above my wife has many friends and activities.  She runs, works out, hikes.  Kids are 10, 8, and 4 and are mostly at school and the rest of the time I'm very hands on as well.  I go running and hiking and hang out all the time too.  I agree that my wife needs validation.  I struggle with the "when" part of validation.  Sometimes when I validate she uses it against me and rages ever harder so I'll need to come up with a plan as it relates to this skill.  My Dad was invalidating and disrespectful and I think that is why I hate it so much when my wife does it.  Lastly I think much of the misplaced anger towards me is really meant for her mother.  She has never dealt with that or come to terms with her abusive controlling mother.  I hope she does some day. 

[vortex of confusion]

Agree on all.  Every word, every text, every email is carefully analyzed by me to see the hidden meaning.  Sometimes there is none, other times it doesn't matter, other times it really is something controlling and abusive.  You are correct about not being in touch with my feelings.  I don't even know what I feel sometimes.  Anger?  Grief?  Everything in my life over time began to take into account her feelings, or presumed feelings.  I can heal though and I will heal.  I see little changes already and I have to keep putting in the work and improve .01% every day. 

Instead of starting with the relationship or what she is doing, start with YOU. What do you value? What do you want? What do you think? What do you feel? I am having to re-establish my point of reference and retrain my thinking. 

Before you can reach out to her or try to do anything with her, you need to figure out what it is that you want and where it is that you want to go with the relationship. You have said that you can't really leave. I get that. I couldn't leave either. That makes for a very difficult road to travel. I read about all of these people that are doing therapeutic separations but that is not possible. I felt like my choices were to find ways to be more peaceful or be miserable. I don't want to be miserable. I have been on just about every board there is and I am making a choice to stay for now. I see small improvements. I have to remind myself that it took 15 or so years to get into this mess, it is going to take time to get out of it. 

[Notwendy]

It's good that both of you have outlets. Yes, growing up with a mom with BPD is tough. It would make sense that your wife feels anger about that.  I'm not sure what was going on with my H's dad, but he was a critical, invalidating man who   did emotionally damage to my H. It doesn't seem fair that my H blamed me for the feelings his dad created.

However, I did benefit personally from doing my own work on my issues and indirectly, the conflict in my relationship got better- by becoming less reactive to my H, I don't trigger him as much, and things don't escalate as much when I do.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Agree on all.  Every word, every text, every email is carefully analyzed by me to see the hidden meaning.  Sometimes there is none, other times it doesn't matter, other times it really is something controlling and abusive.  You are correct about not being in touch with my feelings.  I don't even know what I feel sometimes.  Anger?  Grief?  Everything in my life over time began to take into account her feelings, or presumed feelings.  I can heal though and I will heal.  I see little changes already and I have to keep putting in the work and improve .01% every day. 

Instead of starting with the relationship or what she is doing, start with YOU. What do you value? What do you want? What do you think? What do you feel? I am having to re-establish my point of reference and retrain my thinking. 

Before you can reach out to her or try to do anything with her, you need to figure out what it is that you want and where it is that you want to go with the relationship. You have said that you can't really leave. I get that. I couldn't leave either. That makes for a very difficult road to travel. I read about all of these people that are doing therapeutic separations but that is not possible. I felt like my choices were to find ways to be more peaceful or be miserable. I don't want to be miserable. I have been on just about every board there is and I am making a choice to stay for now. I see small improvements. I have to remind myself that it took 15 or so years to get into this mess, it is going to take time to get out of it. 

Yes changes take time and what I've found out is the BPDs change very, very slowly.  They have so many complicated defense mechanisms that it isn't that possible for them to just jump on a forum and figure things out.  In fact the same mechanism that causes much of this is the same one that would prevent them from even seeing any issues.  The changes come sub-consciously for the most part, in my opinion.

[BestVersionOfMe]

It's good that both of you have outlets. Yes, growing up with a mom with BPD is tough. It would make sense that your wife feels anger about that.  I'm not sure what was going on with my H's dad, but he was a critical, invalidating man who   did emotionally damage to my H. It doesn't seem fair that my H blamed me for the feelings his dad created.

However, I did benefit personally from doing my own work on my issues and indirectly, the conflict in my relationship got better- by becoming less reactive to my H, I don't trigger him as much, and things don't escalate as much when I do.

Invalidation and being critical is abuse.  No doubt about it.  At this moment wife is nagging and being disrespectful with kids to get them ready for school.  She just doesn't get it and never has.  She just can't or won't be respectful.  They don't respond or listen to her because of how she speaks to them.  It is that simple, but she gets herself all worked up in the morning over nothing.  It is just her way, her reality.  I can't change her, but I do know that I need and want a respectful household and the only way I can do that is to lead and be respectful in all my interactions with her and the kids.  It just bugs the crap out of me that someone never learns from anything.  Lots of talking, little action, that is what I see in this borderline.  If you just followed through a few times things would be so much easier for you wifey, but you simply never do and the kids know it. 

[vortex of confusion]

Yes changes take time and what I've found out is the BPDs change very, very slowly.  They have so many complicated defense mechanisms that it isn't that possible for them to just jump on a forum and figure things out.  In fact the same mechanism that causes much of this is the same one that would prevent them from even seeing any issues.  The changes come sub-consciously for the most part, in my opinion.

We have defense mechanisms too.  I can be very defensive in my own way. I missed it because I was so caught up in what my husband was doing. I think a lot of changes for me have been on a more sub-conscious level. I have all of this stuff going on in my conscious mind that I am actively working on and thinking about but there is stuff that is going on underneath it all that I get tiny glimpses of here and there.

[vortex of confusion]

Invalidation and being critical is abuse.  No doubt about it. 

Further up in the thread, you mentioned that you were having a hard time validating your wife. Instead of starting with validating her, can you try to identify ways that you are invalidating her? Have you tried to pay attention and see if you are being critical towards her? I would have denied that I was invalidating or critical. I worked really, really hard to be nice to him. On the surface, I was. Underneath all of that, there was a cesspool of resentment that I had bubbling up under the surface. It is lessening with time and I have gotten better at not letting it bubble up but it still does from time to time and that makes our interactions more difficult.

At this moment wife is nagging and being disrespectful with kids to get them ready for school.  She just doesn't get it and never has.  She just can't or won't be respectful.  They don't respond or listen to her because of how she speaks to them.  It is that simple, but she gets herself all worked up in the morning over nothing.  It is just her way, her reality. 

I could have written this about my husband. Is she aware the impact her behavior is having on the kids? The things that my girls have said about their dad makes me really sad. I had to deal with an issue when I came in from work last night because he tends to underreact/ignore or overreact and be a jerk. 

It just bugs the crap out of me that someone never learns from anything.  Lots of talking, little action, that is what I see in this borderline.  If you just followed through a few times things would be so much easier for you wifey, but you simply never do and the kids know it. 

I am right there with you on this one. I have gotten mad and told my husband, "I don't want to talk about this any more. I want to see you actually do something. Don't tell me anything." For the longest time, I was confused because he would say all of the right things. It would seem like we were on the right page. We would have these marathon talking sessions and I would walk away feeling great. I would feel like, "Wow, he heard me this time." Then, days and weeks and months would go by and nothing would change.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Invalidation and being critical is abuse.  No doubt about it. 

Further up in the thread, you mentioned that you were having a hard time validating your wife. Instead of starting with validating her, can you try to identify ways that you are invalidating her? Have you tried to pay attention and see if you are being critical towards her? I would have denied that I was invalidating or critical. I worked really, really hard to be nice to him. On the surface, I was. Underneath all of that, there was a cesspool of resentment that I had bubbling up under the surface. It is lessening with time and I have gotten better at not letting it bubble up but it still does from time to time and that makes our interactions more difficult.

At this moment wife is nagging and being disrespectful with kids to get them ready for school.  She just doesn't get it and never has.  She just can't or won't be respectful.  They don't respond or listen to her because of how she speaks to them.  It is that simple, but she gets herself all worked up in the morning over nothing.  It is just her way, her reality. 

I could have written this about my husband. Is she aware the impact her behavior is having on the kids? The things that my girls have said about their dad makes me really sad. I had to deal with an issue when I came in from work last night because he tends to underreact/ignore or overreact and be a jerk. 

It just bugs the crap out of me that someone never learns from anything.  Lots of talking, little action, that is what I see in this borderline.  If you just followed through a few times things would be so much easier for you wifey, but you simply never do and the kids know it. 

I am right there with you on this one. I have gotten mad and told my husband, "I don't want to talk about this any more. I want to see you actually do something. Don't tell me anything." For the longest time, I was confused because he would say all of the right things. It would seem like we were on the right page. We would have these marathon talking sessions and I would walk away feeling great. I would feel like, "Wow, he heard me this time." Then, days and weeks and months would go by and nothing would change.

I have backed way off being critical.  It pains me because things are so much simpler than how she makes them and I get irritated that she doesn't take the path of least resistance and so I used to be critical.  Not so much anymore, I try to avoid that at all times, but because I used to do it, she thinks my silence is still being critical and judgmental. 

Is my wife aware of her impact on the kids?  I don't think so, at least she'd never admit it.  She does want to be positive and respectful but gets so full of anxiety she can't help herself.  She is better than before though. 

Borderlines must be notorious about being all talk.  I think they have to because much of their identity isn't real, it is made up and the way to hide it is to talk a lot and project and divert other's from learning truth.  Your husband probably doesn't even realize it. 

Anyways, today is a new day.  I choose to be happy.  I'm gonna go get some healthy soup.  I ran for 40 mins today.  I'm gonna work until the job is done and come home when I want.  Maybe I'll bring home dinner to make things easy on everybody or we can go out to dinner.  At this moment I'm happy and intend to stay that way.

[BestVersionOfMe]

Ok so just transferred a crap load of money into our account to pay bills.  Every single bill we have has been paid for and it is the 18th of the month, which never happens.  There has been some struggles here and there but all in all we've been in the same house for over 12 years, never went hungry, always took vacations, etc.  So my wife has been checking our online account to see where I spend money.  She saw a $30 charge at a Chinese place cause I met my buddy, his 1 year son, and his mom for lunch.  I answered the question via text.  Then she asked for a login for another account, one that only she uses for some reason, but nevertheless I feel a bit controlled.  Last night asked me why I was friends with my son's teacher on Facebook.  One is attractive and one is not, but she didn't mention anything about the other one.  This is the second Facebook friend question she had in the last two weeks.  This is the first time I started to revise how I am choosing to view these concerns.  It shows major insecurities about money and apparently about other woman.  I've always been faithful but I really think my wife is legitimately paranoid about what I'm doing with my free time, not trying to control me as I've always felt.  She is demanding a lot about a lot of things and every time she has done it I've felt she was trying to control me or just be rude, but maybe, just maybe that isn't what it is about.  Maybe she is truly insecure, paranoid, and afraid I'm gonna leave her.  When she is raging or sending awful texts she sends a completely different image that makes me feel like she is completely done with me.  Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

She saw a $30 charge at a Chinese place cause I met my buddy, his 1 year son, and his mom for lunch.  I answered the question via text. 

It is good that she is keeping track of the charges on the account. It is so easy for somebody to get your card number and make false charges. I tend to go over my statements with a fine tooth comb and make sure that all of the charges are accounted for because I don't want to be double charged or miss something in the event that somebody has used my card or number without permission. What would make this annoying is if she did it in an accusatory or snotty manner. If it was all pretty matter of fact, then it could be a matter of being an aware consumer. No need to look for trouble where there is none. (Reminding myself too as I know I have gone down that road and still do from time to time.)

Then she asked for a login for another account, one that only she uses for some reason, but nevertheless I feel a bit controlled. 

If it is her account that she uses, then she needs to be responsible for keeping up with the log in information. Something that I am trying to do a better job of is letting/making my husband be responsible for HIS stuff. When he comes to me for stuff like that, I feel controlled a bit because I feel like I am being put in the role of parent rather than wife/partner. I don't know if that applies to you or not but it is something to think about.

Last night asked me why I was friends with my son's teacher on Facebook.  One is attractive and one is not, but she didn't mention anything about the other one.  This is the second Facebook friend question she had in the last two weeks. 

Is she friend with your son's teacher? If both of you are friends with both teachers, then it can easily be turned around as, "Why are you friends with the teacher?" If she isn't friends with the teacher, why not? FB is a touchy subject for me because I don't mind answer questions that are pretty innocent/meaningless. Asking "I see you added so and so on FB, who is that?" is quite a bit different than asking a loaded question with a bit of attitude. For example, I would post articles or silly stuff and my husband would get upset and think that I trying to be passive aggressive or target him. I will admit that there are times that I did. Most of the time, what I posted had absolutely nothing to do with him yet he would see it as invalidating or me picking on him. So, I unfriended him for a while because I was not going to have every single thing I did online questioned, analyzed, and pretty much held up for scrutiny.

This is the first time I started to revise how I am choosing to view these concerns.  It shows major insecurities about money and apparently about other woman. . . . When she is raging or sending awful texts she sends a completely different image that makes me feel like she is completely done with me.  Thoughts?

Yep, they have a fear of abandonment and are typically very insecure. I have read a lot about the different characteristics to get a better grip on things and realize that this isn't about me. They can be controlling but the controlling behavior is due to the fact that they feel so out of control. When somebody feels out of control, they tend to want to control everything around them. That could explain why you and your wife both feel like the other is being controlling. I have seen that dynamic in my relationship and I have seen other people talk about it as well.

It is good to see the positive side of this and have compassion. Be leery of having so much compassion for her that you forget to have compassion for yourself. Make sure that you know where your values are and what you can realistically tolerate so that you create boundaries to protect yourself from her unpredictability. One of the senior member said something to me one time about trying to figure out how to find some predictability in the unpredictable. 

[BestVersionOfMe]

She saw a $30 charge at a Chinese place cause I met my buddy, his 1 year son, and his mom for lunch.  I answered the question via text. 

It is good that she is keeping track of the charges on the account. It is so easy for somebody to get your card number and make false charges. I tend to go over my statements with a fine tooth comb and make sure that all of the charges are accounted for because I don't want to be double charged or miss something in the event that somebody has used my card or number without permission. What would make this annoying is if she did it in an accusatory or snotty manner. If it was all pretty matter of fact, then it could be a matter of being an aware consumer. No need to look for trouble where there is none. (Reminding myself too as I know I have gone down that road and still do from time to time.)

Then she asked for a login for another account, one that only she uses for some reason, but nevertheless I feel a bit controlled. 

If it is her account that she uses, then she needs to be responsible for keeping up with the log in information. Something that I am trying to do a better job of is letting/making my husband be responsible for HIS stuff. When he comes to me for stuff like that, I feel controlled a bit because I feel like I am being put in the role of parent rather than wife/partner. I don't know if that applies to you or not but it is something to think about.

Last night asked me why I was friends with my son's teacher on Facebook.  One is attractive and one is not, but she didn't mention anything about the other one.  This is the second Facebook friend question she had in the last two weeks. 

Is she friend with your son's teacher? If both of you are friends with both teachers, then it can easily be turned around as, "Why are you friends with the teacher?" If she isn't friends with the teacher, why not? FB is a touchy subject for me because I don't mind answer questions that are pretty innocent/meaningless. Asking "I see you added so and so on FB, who is that?" is quite a bit different than asking a loaded question with a bit of attitude. For example, I would post articles or silly stuff and my husband would get upset and think that I trying to be passive aggressive or target him. I will admit that there are times that I did. Most of the time, what I posted had absolutely nothing to do with him yet he would see it as invalidating or me picking on him. So, I unfriended him for a while because I was not going to have every single thing I did online questioned, analyzed, and pretty much held up for scrutiny.

This is the first time I started to revise how I am choosing to view these concerns.  It shows major insecurities about money and apparently about other woman. . . . When she is raging or sending awful texts she sends a completely different image that makes me feel like she is completely done with me.  Thoughts?

Yep, they have a fear of abandonment and are typically very insecure. I have read a lot about the different characteristics to get a better grip on things and realize that this isn't about me. They can be controlling but the controlling behavior is due to the fact that they feel so out of control. When somebody feels out of control, they tend to want to control everything around them. That could explain why you and your wife both feel like the other is being controlling. I have seen that dynamic in my relationship and I have seen other people talk about it as well.

It is good to see the positive side of this and have compassion. Be leery of having so much compassion for her that you forget to have compassion for yourself. Make sure that you know where your values are and what you can realistically tolerate so that you create boundaries to protect yourself from her unpredictability. One of the senior member said something to me one time about trying to figure out how to find some predictability in the unpredictable. 

You seem pretty objective about all of this and seeing the silver lining.  I felt all of these behaviors had a meaning behind it.  The checking of ccard charges seemed to be her checking up on me, not watching our expenses.  At least that is how I took it.  As far as FB goes, I just don't know.  She isn't friends with the teacher.  You know that thing that pops up that says, "You should be friends with so and so?"  I always click on the people I know.  Doesn't matter if it is male or female, so the fact that she has pointed out two attractive women that I'm now friends with made it feel like it had to do with her thinking I'm fooling around.

Our mutual friend last night asked me to see if I'd be willing to go back to our MC again last night.  I responded with something probably over the top.  I said, "What good would that do?  She is done, I'm done and unless my wife plans on learning to become a respectful person that isn't angry, raging, and disrespectful then I have no desire to be with her.  She has to win me back, not the other way around.  I know who I am, I'm a great guy, and there are plenty of woman that want a good man.  Do I love her?  Yes, but the days are numbered.  Otherwise, get out, the kids and I don't need you."  Don't know if she sent it to my wife or not, but it was my true feelings and I'm sick of this bull___ and rudeness.  Last night at dinner was polite and ok.  We came home and had a glass of wine and then she went to bed.  My highs and lows are just too much.  I was feeling great about us yesterday afternoon, and then her friend coming to me and asking me to go pursue MC just set me off.  Where does my wife get off telling her friend to tell me to go do the work?  She is out of her mind.  I make all the money, I'm the better parent, I and respectful and nice and I get NOTHING in return.  Yet she wants me to go do the work on the marriage?  That is all I've been doing for 3 years.  When is she gonna put in the effort?