Odd false choice seems to be attempt to get password

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

I've been absent a bit from the boards lately.  Very busy with job search.

Some nasty financial papers showed up against my wife... .she has a judgement against her and they are trying to collect. 

If you remember she grabbed money and distributed it as she saw fit... .$30k worth.  Now she wants a solution to pay this off... .somehow expects me to solve this.  Have tried and failed to have conversation about this.

And... the odd choice that came up today... .and the one that has me really bummed... .is that she apparently has moved another child into the house... .as a "ministry".  Because I have "my space" on my email... .she can have "her space" in the house... .and I can do nothing about it.

He has been in the house for 5 days now.  He has visited before... .my wife thinks she is helping him out because he has a bad family... they don't pay attention to him. 

We have had snow days... .and got the word that today was a snow day again... it was a bit unexpected.  I asked if we could take the kid home so we could have family time this afternoon.

We have not had a family dinner or any interaction without this kid present for 5 days.

I would not say it was an abusive conversation... as in yelling... .but it was bizarre.  Kept bringing up unrelated stuff... .that I don't think ever happened... or I said... .or thought... .

She seems to have it in her head that since this is her ministry... .there is no compromise and I don't want to help the kid.

I stuck with an even delivery of I want to help the kid... .I'm not saying my way or highway... .but I would like compromise... some time focused on helping him... sharing what we have... .and some time where we can be a family and enjoy the special part of us being a family.

So... .it was very odd... .she seems very resolute... .even "perky" about it.

The kid is a horror to have around... .speaks harshly to other kids... .calls them "idiots"... the kind of behavior we don't tolerate in our kids.  Our kids behavior has gone south... .bad... .since he has been here. 

He doesn't listen to me... .generally listens to my wife when she is around.  But... .she seems to think he can be here... .she can leave... and he will be fine... .even though he doesn't listen or mind me.

I'll be honest... .I'm scared of this.  Maybe she has figured out that I "make moves" when she backs me in a corner about kids... .not sure.  I'm not going to tolerate the impact this is having on the family... .and on me.  No idea what "not tolerating" it looks like.

I'm not giving up the password... .

I don't know what happens... .or what I can do if she moves another person in the house... .

She knows this is rub point between us... .he has been around for couple days before... .never this long.  She knows he doesn't mind... .has made promises I won't have to deal with it... .but... promises with pwBPD traits don't got so well.

I have no idea where to go from here... .

[formflier]

I've been absent a bit from the boards lately.  Very busy with job search.

Some nasty financial papers showed up against my wife... .she has a judgement against her and they are trying to collect. 

If you remember she grabbed money and distributed it as she saw fit... .$30k worth.  Now she wants a solution to pay this off... .somehow expects me to solve this.  Have tried and failed to have conversation about this.

And... the odd choice that came up today... .and the one that has me really bummed... .is that she apparently has moved another child into the house... .as a "ministry".  Because I have "my space" on my email... .she can have "her space" in the house... .and I can do nothing about it.

He has been in the house for 5 days now.  He has visited before... .my wife thinks she is helping him out because he has a bad family... they don't pay attention to him. 

We have had snow days... .and got the word that today was a snow day again... it was a bit unexpected.  I asked if we could take the kid home so we could have family time this afternoon.

We have not had a family dinner or any interaction without this kid present for 5 days.

I would not say it was an abusive conversation... as in yelling... .but it was bizarre.  Kept bringing up unrelated stuff... .that I don't think ever happened... or I said... .or thought... .

She seems to have it in her head that since this is her ministry... .there is no compromise and I don't want to help the kid.

I stuck with an even delivery of I want to help the kid... .I'm not saying my way or highway... .but I would like compromise... some time focused on helping him... sharing what we have... .and some time where we can be a family and enjoy the special part of us being a family.

So... .it was very odd... .she seems very resolute... .even "perky" about it.

The kid is a horror to have around... .speaks harshly to other kids... .calls them "idiots"... the kind of behavior we don't tolerate in our kids.  Our kids behavior has gone south... .bad... .since he has been here. 

He doesn't listen to me... .generally listens to my wife when she is around.  But... .she seems to think he can be here... .she can leave... and he will be fine... .even though he doesn't listen or mind me.

I'll be honest... .I'm scared of this.  Maybe she has figured out that I "make moves" when she backs me in a corner about kids... .not sure.  I'm not going to tolerate the impact this is having on the family... .and on me.  No idea what "not tolerating" it looks like.

I'm not giving up the password... .

I don't know what happens... .or what I can do if she moves another person in the house... .

She knows this is rub point between us... .he has been around for couple days before... .never this long.  She knows he doesn't mind... .has made promises I won't have to deal with it... .but... promises with pwBPD traits don't got so well.

I have no idea where to go from here... .

[Notwendy]

Wow this is a tough one. I have a friend who adopted another older child like this into her family. It has pros and cons. However, her H is in agreement with this.

I love kids, but I know my limits. My H would not be interested in doing this. I feel as if my kids need all of my attention in the home. However, because I love to help kids, I do things like volunteer tutoring, helping drive older kids to work or school if they have parents who can't, participate in school clothing/food drives and so on.

This way, I feel I can help without compromising the needs/wishes of my family.

Does your wife see this as an all or none thing? That is, this is helping and if we send him home we are not helping. Is there some middle ground where you can support her ministry through helping children in other ways and also having your family boundaries at home?


Perhaps approaching her with what you can do to help with her ministry would validate her and then also present your boundaries to take care of yours.

[Grey Kitty]

I have no idea where to go from here... .

I was talking to a good friend and she reminded me of this quote that I shared with her:

Don't let them bring the fight down to their level. They will fight you there, then beat you with experience!

I think you are letting her define the terms of engagement in very unhealthy ways. One is a bizarre mixing of issues, and another is letting her confuse the nature of the conflicts, getting away from real choices and diving into circular arguments around "She thinks your actions and her actions means... ."  

Here are the actual conflict issues I think you were describing:

1. You aren't giving your wife a password and she wants it.

2. Your wife made a $30k financial mess a while back and is pushing you to solve the problem for her now.

3. Your wife brought a child into the house that is causing problems for your kids, and frustrating you.

I don't see anything that ties those issues together other than your wife being unreasonable / dysregulated about all of them.

Don't let her tie them together in some bogus fashion. (I hope you remember how badly 'deals' with her have gone, at least every one you've described here!)

Can you pick the most important issue of the three and making this topic about it, then creating a second or third topic about the others (if/when you need support in addressing them)?

[Notwendy]

About the child? What else is your wife gaining from this? I wonder because she may be benefitting from people seeing her as a good person, or a good Christian ( I know that's your faith). Is this perhaps one way she is interpreting being a good Christian and a way to make herself feel better about yourself?

I admire my friend for helping the child she took in. However, I see some BPD qualities in her with regards to her family. These don't effect me or our friendship. She's not a symptomatic as my mom, and like my mom, has great friends who she is good to, and the issues remain in the home. If I was not so sensitive to this, I would probably not notice.

However, my friend has painted one of her kids white and the other one black. This has caused problems for the one who is black ( and certainly being the white child isn't great either ). The black child can not do anything right in her mother's eyes. She does not receive much emotional support or validation from her parents. However, the new family member is also painted white, and gets a lot of the family attention. In a sense, it looks like the mother was disappointed with her own child and brought in a replacement. The black child actually likes the new child, but she feels she has been replaced as well.

Something to wonder about- not sure it applies to you, but this is how I observed it.

[vortex of confusion]

How old is this child? Where are the kid's parents? Is the kid in school?

I am curious if there is a way that you could find help for this kid that doesn't involve him living in your house. If he gets help somewhere else and has a better place to stay, then maybe he will leave and things will become a non-issue. Is the kid being used to triangulate with you?

Some practical stuff about the judgment to think about:

-Is your name anywhere on the judgment? What assets do you have that are shared? What are the laws in your state regarding what can and can't be done with a judgment? How will the judgment against her impact you? I ask these questions because you need to be prepared for whatever legal ramifications may happen.

We were in a tight financial situation and I couldn't pay all of his credit card bills. I did all of the figuring and knew what to expect before I did this. I had a couple of different plans, none of which involved saving my husband. I quit paying his credit card bills and told him that he needed to do something about the credit card debt because we didn't have the money to deal with it. I think it was a month or two of me not paying before he found a debt management program to help him pay his credit card bills.

With regard to the password: Have you tried the "help me understand why having my password is s important"? What is it that she wants to see? Is it a power play on her part? Is there a way that you can circumvent your wife on this? I don't like being secretive or deceptive but I have created alternate email accounts. Also, do you have separate email accounts for home, work, etc.? We have a shared email account that I use for all of our rewards cards, ads, and BS. I have a personal email account and I have my work email accounts. On my work email accounts that are hosted on work servers, I had to agree NOT to give out my passwords to anyone (typical terms of service agreement). Is there a way to appease her without going back on the no password boundary? "I won't give you my password but I will sit down with you and show you my email account."

[MaroonLiquid]

It seems to me that she is keeping you embroiled in no-win situations with all of this that are ultimately about her not having to deal with the real issue (the judgement).  She is trying to project all her bad feelings about herself onto you for not "doing the right thing" by that kid, or giving her your email password (so you must be hiding something), when she is the one that does.

[ColdEthyl]

Whew Formflier... .you got yourself a crafty one there. I admire that you are sticking to your guns and not giving up your password. But... .wow. It does seem to me she's using this kid to try to maneuver you into some sort of deal.

I am also curious about the situation surrounding the child. It might give us some clues as to what we can come up with to help you.

 

[formflier]

 

Apparently... .she is not budging... .there will be no family time tonight.  Or... .she has redefined family to include him.   

We will see.

So... .my wife has a history of trying to save "wounded kids"... .help them.  She has a degree in early childhood education... .she is very good at it.  She is great teacher... .

However... .she has now taken on this... ."no compromise" mindset. 

She claims I do not help her in "her ministry"  (this is the first time she has used that phrase)... .The kid being here for 5 days and my trying to help... .is not helping.

Helping is only defined as we do it her way... .  She actually said this... .

Since I have my "private space" on my computer... .she can have her "private space" in the house and do whatever she wants.  I get no say... .there is nothing I can do about it.  Again... .those are exact words... .or 99% exact... .I don't have recording.  She was not yelling or "dysregulated" while doing it... .

Unless this is a new version of being dysregulated.    The mixing of arguments is typical of her dysregulation.

So... .my plan is to ask is she will get in front of our MC (if possible) or a minister (since this is a "ministry" issue)... .to help guide us to a compromise. 

If that doesn't work... .I'll have to talk to a L... .but... .this doesn't work for me. 

Honestly... .it is about half about the kid and the impact I see him having (negative)... .and about half of it is the "there will be no compromise" stance on issues.

The claims of me not being able to compromise... .when that is what I am offering... .is just projection... smoke.

[ColdEthyl]

It's not a dysregulation thing... .but they can come up with these weird-o connections to things that don't have a connection. For an example, my H will sometimes get into this thing where he wants to talk for an hour or two straight. He says since I work all day and I am around 2 other people, and he is home all day around no one with no one to talk to, then he should be allowed to talk as much as he wants, and I should have to listen.

That's ridiculous. My being at work has nothing to do with anything... .he just wants to run his mouth and needs a 'reason' for it. To me, this sounds something like that. She wants that password... .and she has drawn some imaginary lines between the two events to justify her thought process.

[formflier]

 

It appears she may be getting a bit reasonable... .

She just came upstairs and said if I was going to be around for a while that she would take the kid home.

I told her I would really appreciate that... .

Sigh... .I am very tired of this... .

[MaroonLiquid]

It appears she may be getting a bit reasonable... .

She just came upstairs and said if I was going to be around for a while that she would take the kid home.

I told her I would really appreciate that... .

Sigh... .I am very tired of this... .

That's good!  I know what you mean by being tired of it. 

[formflier]

 

Interesting... .

He hasn't been taken home yet... .I'm not going to push.

Also... .she talked to the Sheriff office about the judgement paper... .and... .they said they weren't going to be able to do anything about it.

She had been claiming they would come load up stuff out of garage and cart it off... .

I had talked to lawyers... .and thought otherwise.

So... .after she said this... I didn't rub it in... .just said that was good news.

I've seen some guys use the phrase "catastrophize" everything as the way some with BPD go about this... .that sure was the case for my r/s on this issue... .

Now that it's obvious there is no catastrophe... .I guess it is life back to normal... .

[Grey Kitty]

Whew. Sounds like she's standing down.

Look for things you can validate. (There is so much invalid she wants validated!)

Her desire to help this kid is a good thing. That isn't the same as her bad judgement to 'help' by messing with the stability of her own kids. The compassion that motivates her is a beautiful thing.

Reminds me a bit of where my wife has been for quite a few months--not abusive, not raging, not full-on dysregulation... .but still caught in some of the twisted mental/emotional processes that drove her other BPD symptoms.

[MaroonLiquid]

Reminds me a bit of where my wife has been for quite a few months--not abusive, not raging, not full-on dysregulation... .but still caught in some of the twisted mental/emotional processes that drove her other BPD symptoms.

Same with my wife.  I think they are starting to realize their methods aren't working like they used to... .

[ColdEthyl]

Hang in there formflier!   

[formflier]

 

Yep...

Kid got taken home

Had nice evening playing cards with family.  Wife and I had snuggle time by the fire on the couch... .it's like nothing ever happened. 

We are in for snow day tomorrow at school... .I need to make sure I get a good night's sleep so I can be ready... .for whatever.

One of the scary things about today... .is that I was not full up on sleep... .basically... .I knew I was at a bit of a disadvantage.

My wife's instincts about who needs help and that kind of thing are spot on.  It's her methods of going about things that are horrific.

[Grey Kitty]

  YAY for sudden peace. Especially when you need it!

One of the scary things about today... .is that I was not full up on sleep... .basically... .I knew I was at a bit of a disadvantage.

Looking back, I'm not surprised... .you sounded a lot more ... .err... .befuddled by the situation than I'd expect you to when you are more "on your game" so to speak.

Like I said, enjoy the peace. Especially since you need to get caught up on sleep and take good care of yourself. But don't trust it. As an engineer, I absolutely HATED problems that went away for no reason I could understand... .because I figured the exact same thing could make them come back any time!

My wife's instincts about who needs help and that kind of thing are spot on.  It's her methods of going about things that are horrific.

And that is a good one to file away for later revisiting. In a kind, validating, coaching way, you may be able to work with her to really improve things for people in your community.

[formflier]

Looking back, I'm not surprised... .you sounded a lot more ... .err... .befuddled by the situation than I'd expect you to when you are more "on your game" so to speak.

And... .also... .this is a "pressure point" that I am vulnerable to.   Or... another way of saying it... .is when it involves what happens in the house... and my kids... .I have a lot less flexibility for BPD silliness than other things.

If she had limited it to "you told a counselor several years ago that you would never have an effective ministry because of me... "... .I would have been 100%... .even if tired.

Yeah... she actually said that... .during the discussion... .and no... .I have no memory of ever thinking or saying something like that. 

I got a good nights sleep... .and I'm looking forward to a good day. 

Wondering if I just find a good time and try to validate some of her helping instincts... .and see if that brings up the issue for us to work on in a good way... .or if I just try to have a good day.

[Notwendy]

Looking into co-dependency made me look at "helping" in a different way. We might think we are helping, but what we really are doing is rescuing, controlling, validating ourselves. It is also important to consider boundaries. Bringing a child into your home is a huge decision. There are pros and cons. You have to think about other family members, time, resources. You know that. You are the other parent and I would think that bringing a child home would involve the two of you. It astounds me that she didn't at least talk to you about how long the child would stay.

This is a bit of a grey area since I didn't ask my H if my kids' friends could stay over for a sleepover, or even for a few days. There was a time when one of my kid's friends water heated broke and the child stayed until it was repaired. However in all those incidents, my H understood that it was temporary. However, moving a child from a troubled home indefinitely is not something to do without all parents on board.

I also think your wife has a narrow view of "ministry". I don't mean to get into your religious values or how you do it, but I have rarely seen people feel they have to have people move in with them as a ministry. One of my friends started a soup kitchen and I know a lot of volunteers there. Some volunteer at a free clinic, schools, donate to charity and so on. Some people take mission trips. I do know of some who have added to their families by adoption- but always with the parents in agreement. It's a good value to teach kids- there are angel trees at Christmas time and other ways for kids to be part of doing good for others.

One can help others and have boundaries. I know you know that. However, if someone is intent on testing boundaries they will do it. Can you decide what kind of ways you would participate in a ministry with your wife and how you would feel you can support her wish to do one?

[formflier]

  However, if someone is intent on testing boundaries they will do it. 

I think you have nailed it... .this is essentially a boundary issue about "control" of the house.

Also interesting to note that we are reading (together) the Boundaries book.  We haven't discussed it much together yet.

I love religious discussions... .so no worries going there.  What I think my wife was trying to express was that helping kids is one of her "gifts"... .vice her ministry. 

However... .I think the BPD traits in her came out when trying to insulate herself from criticism.  This thought that since it was her ministry... .there were no choices. 

Yes... .I was astounded too at what she was saying that she could decide to do without me.  However... .she backed down. 

I need to find some way to honor that good behavior today.  I need to be careful to not do it in a condescending way

[Notwendy]

While one can value religion, it is possible to misuse it as well. Someone with dysfunctional thinking might consider something like a "ministry" to justify a decision and so make it noble and immune to criticism.

One of my issues was "honor your parents" which meant mom had absolute power over us. However, a subtle interpretation of this is that, yes, you should honor a parent's request in most cases, but if a parent asks you to do something unethical, then you should not honor it. If a parent asks you to rob a bank, you should not comply. I do not honor my mother's wishes when it comes to violating my own boundaries. Thankfully she has not asked me to do something illegal - she's a moral person. However, I don't have to honor her wishes to rage, order me around, or be available to her whenever she wants.

Ministries are good in general, but if a ministly involves hurting the people you are committed to love and protect- your children, your marriage, then this raises the question of is this a good ministry?  Choosing to violate your boundaries and then calling it a ministry doesn't fly with me.

My H has done this using "work" as the noble excuse. Yes, he supports us. I am grateful, but using that as a means of justifying being inconsiderate with me and violating the trust between us over money doesn't make that OK.

[KateCat]

I wonder if you are getting down to some of the main issues in your marriage now.

If your wife has a degree in early childhood development, and if she sees her efforts in the realm of guiding children as a calling, then I wonder how she feels about the difficult family events you and she have weathered this past year in your own family's life? Could she feel that you have tried to wrest this ministry from her by involving other people? Maybe she feels deeply challenged in her core identity and is herself involving non-family members now in an effort to regain a sense of mastery and of self.

Hopefully you guys can continue family counseling for some time yet. (And continuing to read Boundaries, of course.  )

[formflier]

I wonder if you are getting down to some of the main issues in your marriage now.

KateCat,

I think you are right... .I think this is a much bigger deal to her than a random feeling of abandonment and her lashing out with a "you don't love me" statement or something like that.

So... .knowing it is most likely a core thing... .I need to tread carefully and validate... .focus on positive... .think about making sure my words don't sound critical.

I'm sure she took my request to send kid home as a criticism of her efforts...

I need to find an appropriate way to thank her today... .I really did enjoy the family time last night.  We all played Rook... .and had a great time just being us.

[KateCat]

You're doing such great work. 

[ColdEthyl]

I wonder if you are getting down to some of the main issues in your marriage now.

KateCat,

I think you are right... .I think this is a much bigger deal to her than a random feeling of abandonment and her lashing out with a "you don't love me" statement or something like that.

So... .knowing it is most likely a core thing... .I need to tread carefully and validate... .focus on positive... .think about making sure my words don't sound critical.

I'm sure she took my request to send kid home as a criticism of her efforts...

I need to find an appropriate way to thank her today... .I really did enjoy the family time last night.  We all played Rook... .and had a great time just being us.

I don't know what works for yours... .but for mine I would say something like "I really enjoyed family time last night." and "I really appreciate you and your willingness and ability to help others."

Using the word "appreciate" goes far with my H. He likes that and when I follow up a statement of appreciation with "I know it's hard for you to do X, and it helps me out so much that you did X'

[Grey Kitty]

I think you are right... .I think this is a much bigger deal to her than a random feeling of abandonment and her lashing out with a "you don't love me" statement or something like that.

So... .knowing it is most likely a core thing... .I need to tread carefully and validate... .focus on positive... .think about making sure my words don't sound critical.

I think this is room for validation in a form not far from one of your favorites: "Help me understand... ."

Really put yourself in a position of curiosity and interest--that you want to know how this sort of ministry and caring works for her, what she wants to accomplish.

The hard part will be building enough trust that she doesn't think you are asking about it to tell her that she's doing it wrong. (Which you obviously felt she was, by disrupting your household and your kids' lives!)

So really work on the genuine interest in her passion/dreams/whatever around this... .and make sure you are sincere before you start asking about it. She will be a lot more sensitive to your insincerity / suspicion than you are, and it will not bring out her best!

[formflier]

 

I think I'm going to go for appreciate first... .and if that goes well... .see if I can ask about understanding why this is a big deal to her.

Will be tricky for me... .because I do think she is doing things wrong... .but I have to get that out of my head... .

Should be able to get after it here in an hour or so

[Notwendy]

What about the kid?

I realize that this is about you and your wife. However, what was the child led to believe? Did he think he was welcome in a home that was better than his and then only to be returned home?

I get that this is one of your wife's core values, and that she may be seeking validation through helping others, however, her validation also included a young vulnerable child. I understand that he was a behavioral mess, but how did he feel about being sent home? Did he feel unlovable or rejected?

I know this is going to sound critical. Maybe "helping" this child was good for your wife, and it helped her think she was a wonderful caring person- but this was a child who is not able to fully process what is going on or consent to anything- even being a member of someone's family. One can't use a child to validate yourself.

Having a degree in early childhood development is great, but kids don't stay kids ( you know that) and you can't take in a kid and then just return them later without causing some damage to the child. The kid you take in will become the teenager later. He/she will interact with everyone in the family.

I love kids, but have several reasons that I would not adopt one into my family in addition to my own kids. It isn't the same as a new sibling- older kids are similar ages to existing sibs and that changes the dynamics.  My H is happy that I like to help kids- he knows that I volunteer in schools and have even helped take older kids to work or college if they needed rides. However, I know that he does not want the additional parenting or financial responsibilities of taking in another child. It would be inconsiderate to him to expect him to do this - and not even ask him first. However, it would also be inconsiderate to the child to bring him into a home where he would not be loved and cherished by both parents. My main reason for not doing this is because I think it is a serious comitment, and unless both parents are on board to make that commitment- then it isn't fair to the child to do this.

You may want to reinforce your wife's caring for children, but still, this seems impulsive to me and sadly a child may pay the price for that. I hope that you can support your wife's ministry in a way that both of you can be invested in.

[Notwendy]

I know this probably sounds harsh and I know your wife had good intentions, but I am protective when it comes to kids- having felt responsible for my mother's feelings from a young age.

[formflier]

I know this probably sounds harsh and I know your wife had good intentions, but I am protective when it comes to kids- having felt responsible for my mother's feelings from a young age.

Not harsh at all... it's a good point.

I'm 99% positive the kid didn't overhear any talking about taking him home.

I have no idea what my wife told him.

To me... .the problem solver in me seems to think that when/if he comes over... there is an expected return time.

I have no idea what was communicated to him when he came over... .I had no idea he was coming.  I was out of town doing an interview... .and when I returned... .he was there.  5 days later... .he was still there.

I asked for family time... and that is when story started.

[Notwendy]

It would have been good if your wife had communicated the visit to you ( and the child too I hope). "Billy's grandmother is ill and he is staying with us for a few days so his mother can visit her" would have been clearer than coming home and finding a child in your home with no knowlege of how long he is staying.

Many kids have stayed with us for such reasons, and if it is longer than a few days, I try to discuss it with my H. When my father was ill, sometimes my friends helped with my kids so I could see him. I think this is the sort of thing people just do to help out, and my H doesn't expect me to ask him all the time. However, I we both are clear on the boundaries we have about this and I think this is one reason he's OK with having kids visit. Sometimes our kids just want to have friends over too, but as you say, there is a beginning and and end to the visit.

I am getting a sense that this is an issue over your desire for family time- and this is a wish that you need your wife to cooperate with and here is the breakdown. You want family time, she sends kids off to relatives or invites more over. She has power over something you want. For this to happen, she has to cooperate. Your wish is, in a sense, in her hands.

You can't control what she does, even if you have an agreement with her. Is there some way you can take this process into your own hands, and make it happen for you?  We try to have family time, but I also like to see "daddy time". My H was not interested in taking care of small children, but as the kids got older and could share his interests, he will do things like take them to a movie - maybe one that I don't want to see, or share another hobby with them. We don't have the number of kids that you do- but maybe you could plan something with your older ones, then the younger ones. Maybe set a date for dinner, ask all the kids to be there ( you ask) then ask your wife, bring in family style take out or heat a casserole that you have in the freezer. Now, your wife could sabotage this, but that would be her doing this deliberately. Putting something in her hands leaves it open to passive aggressiveness.

What prompted the daddy time for me was that the kids were getting older. I had been doing most everything and so they would come to me with their needs. As they got older and had their own friends and interests, they didn't seek out their parents as much and my H started saying things like " the kids ignore me". He expected to have the kids clear their schedules- drop everything- and be with him and his time with them would be all arranged. I was able to explain to him that he needed to express his wishes to them directly, not through me, and not expect them to read his mind and suddenly drop plans for a school event, or with friends- that even though he is their father, he has to communicate his wishes to them. Now he will say "on Saturday let's go see that new movie" and the kids are happy to go. If we have a special family time meal planned, I will let everyone know. It's a two way street too, as sometimes the kids will say " there's a game at school we want to go to".

We are still the parents and make the rules, but being collaborative with the kids as they get older has led to what I think is better time together than if one person held the others to their wishes.

[formflier]

\

I am getting a sense that this is an issue over your desire for family time- and this is a wish that you need your wife to cooperate with and here is the breakdown. 

Yes... .we have a winner.

My desire was to have time with our family.  To sit around the dinner table and be with each other... .no agenda... .just eat and talk.  I'm fine with sharing that sometimes... .we do that often.

But... .when you start realizing it has been weeks since the family sat around the table... .and when I am emotional down... .and hoping for a "recharge" from something I really enjoy. 

I communicate that to my wife... .she says I'm not helping her agenda (ignoring the last 5 days)... .and all the rest... .

Yep... .this is really the issue.

It was not about the kid... .I would have wanted anyone else to go home also... .

Now... .I do need to acknowledge that we got to the point that I wanted... .and I was very happy with it... .I am recharged... .and all that.

I'm also a "process" guy... .at work... and at home.  And the process I have to go through to get this... .stinks. 

I'm trying to change the process... .but running up against the fact that half of it is not in my control... .

We'll keep working it

[Notwendy]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

Maybe this would work in a family where the parents are not dealing with some kind of dysfunction- where cooperation is the goal, but this way of thinking may not work with a dysfunctional person.

Many times my attempts to do something cooperative- where I really need my H on board- like moving something, requiring a truck- things that are really hard for me to do without his involvement- these things can break down when his style of thinking turns it into something that invalidates him. I don't even have to do or say anything to have this happen.

Once I was finally- as an adult- able to listen to what my mom felt about things, I could realize how so many things in our family life were perceived as being invalidating to her- even if they were not intended. Many times, if I offered advice- that would trigger her. Asking her to do something would trigger her, just like it triggers my H. He somehow feels he is being ordered around, putting him in power down position in his mind. Also, my mom interprets being asked to do something caring and nice as being insulted- like she is some kind of servant. She also feels validated by bossing us around. She also felt as if she didn't have much control of her life since it revolved around other people- dad's job, kids. The summary of her actions can be said as such:

My mother's constant (internal) feelings of being disempowered and invalidated resulted in her taking opportunities to grab power wherever she could.

Even if this meant behaving badly. Making everyone late for something because we had to wait for her was power. Telling something personal about me when I asked her not to was power. Not giving me a graduation present when I hoped she would was her having the power to disappoint me.

What I learned was that if I wanted something, needed something done, I had to take complete charge of it. Maybe this isn't fair or right, but wanting a disordered person to meet my needs gives them the power to choose to do it or not. If their natural state is to feel disempowered, a request to do something could possibly accentuate it. They might take their power back by not doing it or changing it in some way.

[Notwendy]

One example of this thinking was at one of my father's birthdays. She had a cake, and  I brought a cake too ( store bought ).  I figured it was not a big deal, there would just be more cake. She could even just put out hers with candles on it and people could eat the second cake later, or she could give it to a neighbor. I didn't think much about it.

However, I think to her, somehow she thought my bringing a cake was invalidating to her- her cake was wrong, she can't provide a good enough cake. So, she threw it away. Also, she wanted total control of her kitchen.

[MaroonLiquid]

My mother's constant (internal) feelings of being disempowered and invalidated resulted in her taking opportunities to grab power wherever she could.

This is my wife to a T.  Taking and controlling the power is the only way they know how to cope with those feelings of disempowerment, abandonment and invalidation.

[formflier]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

You are correct... .and in this case... .I don't see a way around it.

If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

Doing my own power grab and pushing her out... .would validate certain feelings or claims she makes about me.

I think that my demonstrating good behavior... by asking... .by working towards compromise... .is the right way to go.  Yep... .sometimes it makes her uncomfortable... .triggers her... .

I think that is her issue to deal with... .I don't want to blame or accuse her... .but I also don't want to avoid doing normal healthy behavior to appease her. 

I'm open to suggestions... .but above is my take on it...

[MaroonLiquid]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

You are correct... .and in this case... .I don't see a way around it.

If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

I feel the same way.  I love family time.

Doing my own power grab and pushing her out... .would validate certain feelings or claims she makes about me.

I think that my demonstrating good behavior... by asking... .by working towards compromise... .is the right way to go.  Yep... .sometimes it makes her uncomfortable... .triggers her... .

I think that is her issue to deal with... .I don't want to blame or accuse her... .but I also don't want to avoid doing normal healthy behavior to appease her. 

I'm open to suggestions... .but above is my take on it...

I'll say this, and maybe this because this is where I'm at right now in my r/s and I'm looking through those glasses.  Sometimes you have to exert power and show strength and not be afraid to.  Not in push/pull, control or pushing her out, but instead, coming from a place of strength and character.  You are in a different place than I am with my wife, so take that for what it's worth.  I just feel that appeasing my wife during the last 8 months and longer has "told her" that I will always give in and be a pushover if she throws a fit. 

[formflier]

  I just feel that appeasing my wife during the last 8 months and longer has "told her" that I will always give in and be a pushover if she throws a fit. 

Maroon,

Very insightful comment... .one that I think anyone reading this thread should take a long look at.

The way we act and react "tells" our partner many things... .we need to be very careful what we tell our partner with our actions... .and realize that we will reap what we sow... .

[MaroonLiquid]

 I just feel that appeasing my wife during the last 8 months and longer has "told her" that I will always give in and be a pushover if she throws a fit.  

Maroon,

Very insightful comment... .one that I think anyone reading this thread should take a long look at.

The way we act and react "tells" our partner many things... .we need to be very careful what we tell our partner with our actions... .and realize that we will reap what we sow... .

The law of reaping and sowing is as real as the law of gravity... .The thing I had to realize is that because I am communicating through softball team emails (healthy), I shouldn't feel guilty.  She sent an email yesterday that said our daughter would be there and I responded and said, "Great! thanks for letting me know."   By doing that, I'm treating her like any other parent on the team (which is what she asked of me a couple of weeks ago because she didn't want to be "seen" as my wife), I'm communicating and responding to her, and therefore, I'm not abandoning her.  I'm choosing for myself to have healthier communication and if she feels like I'm abandoning her because of that, I can't change that.  Healthy communication starts with me, and I'm done with only being texted when it is something that she can try, bait me with, accuse me of or ask me for something.  Yes, I do realize this is uncomfortable for her  (it is for me too) and makes her angry... .

[Notwendy]

"If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

Doing my own power grab and pushing her out... .would validate certain feelings or claims she makes about me."

I see your point, but it is a distinction between the intent of an action that makes the difference. Being responsible for our own feelings is not a power grab, but owning our own power. We have discussed this a lot in MC- the difference between being co-dependent and inter-dependent and it is very subtle. My H doesn't quite buy into it. He sees me as something that can make him feel good or bad. In this case, he gives me that power and so can attribute his happiness to me or blame me. By contrast, if I see him (or he sees me) as not having the power to do this, I can be responsible for my feelings. We can still do the same things together, but without me looking to him for my happiness.

This distinction is theoretical. Sure, if my H were to come home with another woman and say "hey she's moving in with me". I'd be mad as a hornet. But by being responsible for my feelings, I would be able to take action on it, not look at him to change. Likewise, if my H brought me flowers, made dinner, and cleaned the kitchen, I'd be over the moon, but still I don't need to give him the power to determine my happiness.

There is a subtle difference in how both these situations feel and the outcome. When my H approaches me with an expectation to do something so that he is soothed or validated, it feels a bit icky to me because when I do it, it comes not from the heart, but from something different- fear, obligation- and the result is that I feel resentment. One of these was his expectation that I cook meals for him every night. Well, this isn't a bad thing- I do it most of the time. However, things might come up- child not well, school function, and since my H was basing his feeling good on my cooking dinner, he'd feel bad if I didn't. I could sense that and dinner became an obligation that I resented, because I was doing it to pacify him. It also didn't feel good to him since that is sort of a condescending attitude.

On the other hand, If I focus on my reasons for cooking-I want to cook- I like it, feeding my family, its nutritious, and so on. The action is the same, the result different for me.

Family time in our house happens because I value it for many reasons- I like it, it is good for us, good for raising kids. My H enjoys it, and maybe gets recharged from it, but he does not obligate me to do it for his feelings.

Taking responsibility for your feelings and wanting family time isn't a power grab from your wife. It is a subtle difference in your expectations and how you react to the outcome. Of course it is good to give positive feedback for it. Ironically - could letting go of how you want your wife to do this give you different results?

[formflier]

Taking responsibility for your feelings and wanting family time isn't a power grab from your wife. It is a subtle difference in your expectations and how you react to the outcome. Of course it is good to give positive feedback for it. Ironically - could letting go of how you want your wife to do this give you different results?

I see where you are going with this... .but I'm struggling to figure out how to apply it.

If my wife has the power to bring a kid to our house... .I guess in this case... .I would have the power to take him home.  No need to ask... .and ... .we have family time. 

I suspect it would not go well for my wife... .

So... .how could I "do" your idea.?

[Notwendy]

Well- what happened with the child involved a child so I would say that is something to discuss with your wife- your boundary on inviting other kids over and for how long. I think you can ask her to consider your feelings but she has the choice to do that or not. Your choice is how to respond to it.

I don't know how you arrange family time with your wife. In some families it is made part of the family routine- for instance Sunday dinners but it can be any night you choose- keeping in mind that for older kids - social events are usually Friday and Saturday nights. You don't want it to be something the family resents- but you can sit down with your wife and make some plan for family night. Hopefully she will be able to discuss her feelings about it . She may have different ideas- maybe you want twice a week but she feels she can only do one as there are things going on with the kids or other things. Can you let go of your ideas about how it should be done, or perhaps your fear that it won't be done if it isn't done how you like it and see what happens if she does it her way? You never know but it might be better than if you were disappointed in how it goes. You might not like it if it doesn't always work out but could you enjoy the way it is anyway- like an extra kid at the table or one of your children went to grandmas? You might find out that your wife plans family time differently and that's ok too

[Notwendy]

I see bringing the child home indefinitely as a whole different thing as this should only be done with both parents involved ( and the child's family) . If it was temporary then you needed to know that. It is not a ministry to bring a child into a home to live without the parents wanting this. It's not fair to the child.

[formflier]

I see bringing the child home indefinitely as a whole different thing as this should only be done with both parents involved ( and the child's family) . If it was temporary then you needed to know that. It is not a ministry to bring a child into a home to live without the parents wanting this. It's not fair to the child.

I agree... .she has backed off this claim... .but it certainly shows the twisted thinking that can come up.

[formflier]

  Can you let go of your ideas about how it should be done,

The only idea that I can't let go of... .is that family needs to be there... .otherwise... .it's alone time... .not family time.

I've been round and round with her about this... .and the only way to make sure it happens... or that I get happy in the deal... is to make sure that I get my part of the deal first.  Or if I don't... .then I know the deal most likely won't be followed through on.

There will be no accountability for her actions or inactions... .(according to her)... .I use these instances to push harder in counseling... .to point out that her "confusion" on what was said is why I don't have conversations with her with the tv on... .phone on... .phone to here ear... .while she is cooking... .

If we are going to have a conversation... .and it is important... .we will focus on that... .or we will not have it.  I can't force her to do this... .so I just walk away... and let her know I will be back in a bit to see if she can have a "undistracted conversation" with me. 

She doesn't like it when I do that... .that is her issue... .not mine.

[Grey Kitty]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

I see two very different issues, and this is important, because one is YOURS and one is joint.

1. You value family time.

This is important to you. It does require cooperation of all family members (at least the ones who are present, given the size of your family). It may (or may not) require keeping outsiders away.

Keeping disruptive forces out is required to get what you want though... .those may be a poorly behaved child (from outside the family), or may be your wife being dysregulated.

Most important: this is a joint activity, and you definitely lack full power and full responsibility for it.

(Room for interesting negotiations around this!)

2. You need to recharge yourself.

This is your responsibility. Yes, you can get this from family time. Yes, you can get it from good interactions with your wife.

However you need to be able to assure this for yourself even if those sources aren't there for you this week.

And that is something for you to work on. On your own.

Don't let this need of yours make a mess of issue #1.

[formflier]

(Room for interesting negotiations around this!)

Yep... .and that means there is a need for some sort of reality.

Some sort of acknowledgement that I support her version of things... and there should be some reciprocal feeling and action on her part.  This is where the BPD traits get in the way... .because she really can believe... .that me supporting her choices for 5 days... .and then asking for something different... .means I NEVER support her choices.

Luckily... .given space and time she seems to have figured this out.


The tough thing that I am looking at... .is that as long a momentum seems to generally be going in the right direction... towards a healthier r/s and family... .I'm ok with being somewhat of a rug at times... .to bend more than she does.

But... .I also have the reality... .that if worst came to worst and the r/s broke down.  That I would get more "family time" and more "control"... .with a court protected 50/50 custody than I have now.   

I don't want that... .but it does embolden me to hold to my boundaries.

Like I said before... .I don't know what "not standing for it" would have looked like... .but if she had held fast to moving the kid in... .I would have talked to a lawyer about how to force a change. 

I'm glad it didn't come to that... .and I'm definitely not going to let wife know this.  If it ever comes to it... .I will just do it.

[Notwendy]

I'm having a difficult time envisioning why family time does not happen in your family. You're a religious family with several children. Family time is grafted into most religious traditions - meals, holidays, attending religious servives together. With 8 kids I would think that if anyone wanted to eat, they had better all be at the dinner table or miss out. If  two parents are married and committed to a religion, then it would seem to me that both would make it happen- not just for each other but because of a commitment to the faith. Observant Jewish parents have shabbat dinner not because one of them wants it and the other is doing it for that but because they are both invested in this religious observance. Religious Christian parents have family prayers together, go to church together and then have a meal afterwards because they are both committed to their religion and traditions.

Choosing a charity or ministry does not have to be one organized project, and people do good in the world according to their talents and circumstances. A musician might play an instrument for people in a retirement home. A chef might have a night at a restaurant where some of the proceeds go to charity. IMHO, eight kids is a full time ministry- this is what you were given, but it is good to help others and model this for your kids. I understand your wife wanting something of her own, but there are many ways to do it.

I think GK said it well. You are combining two things: 1)your personal need to be re-energized, 2) wanting family night. I am going to add a third variable in this mix- your wife desiring some kind of ministry and it affected you because it affected #1 and #2. So there are three different conditions all interdependent on each other.

GK was on to something when he suggested you separate them.

1) Take responsibility for your feelings and needing to be recharged. Making them dependent on something else- requiring something or someone else puts your needs at the decision of someone else. There are ways to recharge on your own. Take a walk, pray, do something you like.

2) Family time - needs an agreement between you and the other family members. Work this out for other reasons- your faith, your values, whatever are mutual values that you and your wife share. Family time has been shown to enhance child learning and behavior. Your wife may buy into this. It would be good if she had her own reasons to want this independent of you.

3) Brainstorm for a ministry that your wife is invested in, that she can do and be proud of. Surely there are areas of need in your community.

To take the focus of you, you might want to consider speaking to your minister about topics #2 and #3.  Religions have much to say on family time, and how to help others. Perhaps there is someone who your wife could speak to such as the minister's wife. Your wife might be more receptive to getting advice from other people in your church who she feels comfortable with than you- someone who she admires and who is knowlegeable and with whom she won't feel invalidated or embarrased.

[formflier]

I'm having a difficult time envisioning why family time does not happen in your family. You're a religious family with several children. Family time is grafted into most religious traditions - meals, holidays, attending religious servives together. With 8 kids I would think that if anyone wanted to eat, they had better all be at the dinner table or miss out. If  two parents are married and committed to a religion, then it would seem to me that both would make it happen- not just for each other but because of a commitment to the faith. Observant Jewish parents have shabbat dinner not because one of them wants it and the other is doing it for that but because they are both invested in this religious observance. Religious Christian parents have family prayers together, go to church together and then have a meal afterwards because they are both committed to their religion and traditions.

If my wife picked a schedule... .and stuck to it... .or involved me in decisions that affected the agreed upon schedule... .then... .this would be quite easy.  It used to be quite easy. 

But... .when I come home and discover a change in plans... ."i'm inflexible... .I don't care about her... ."she forgot".  This works for an episode or two... .and then you realize it's been two weeks and not everyone has sat around the table to share a prayer and a meal. 

At that point... .my wife usually points out that I should have been more clear... .it's not her issue... .I don't know how to ask... .or variations on this.

We've tried writing it down... .putting it on the calendar... .etc etc. 

More often than not... .it doesn't work.

1) Take responsibility for your feelings and needing to be recharged. Making them dependent on something else- requiring something or someone else puts your needs at the decision of someone else. There are ways to recharge on your own. Take a walk, pray, do something you like.

Agreed... .however... what my wife was proposing was taking one of my ways to be re-energized off the table... .permanently.

Most likely similar to GK's wife moving him out of his boat... .because he doesn't care about it.

I'm a family guy... .it is central to who I am... .I draw strength from it... .

2) Family time - needs an agreement between you and the other family members. Work this out for other reasons- your faith, your values, whatever are mutual values that you and your wife share. Family time has been shown to enhance child learning and behavior. Your wife may buy into this. It would be good if she had her own reasons to want this independent of you.

We've had agreements ad nauseum... .  making agreements with a pwBPD traits is tricky.

3) Brainstorm for a ministry that your wife is invested in, that she can do and be proud of. Surely there are areas of need in your community.

She has let me know I'm not involved in her ministry decisions... .if we ever get in front of a pastor to chat... this will be interesting... .because she also claims to be submitting to me in a Biblical sense.   

Hmmmm... .for those of you that aren't familiar with Conservative Christianity... .the husband is the spiritual leader of the wife... .for her to claim I am not involved in her ministry or ministry decisions... .is 100% opposite of what she claims to believe.  She will not respond to questions about "understanding" the difference.

To take the focus of you, you might want to consider speaking to your minister about topics #2 and #3.  Religions have much to say on family time, and how to help others. Perhaps there is someone who your wife could speak to such as the minister's wife. Your wife might be more receptive to getting advice from other people in your church who she feels comfortable with than you- someone who she admires and who is knowlegeable and with whom she won't feel invalidated or embarrased.

We have talked to many many ministers... .but it has been a while.  My guess is she doesn't want to have the talk again... .because she doesn't want to explain her position.

She knows I'm ready... .anytime to sit down and talk

[Notwendy]

Although I am not a Conservative Christian, I am familiar with it as I have friends who are ( and an interest in comparitive religions as you might guess). I think religion is a good thing in general but a religious person who has disordered thinking will also have distorted thinking when it come to religion. Also, we form our early childhood concepts of religion through from our parents, so if we grew up in a dysfunctional home, then those concepts might be distorted. Some of the work we do in ACOA is undoing some of those ideas and forming new ones.

The idea of the husband being the spiritual leader has been disputed by some who see it as an inequality between men and women, however, when a woman agrees to that role, she sees it as a commitment to her faith. The husband also has to not abuse that role and be committed to his faith. It isn't inequality but a commitment to different roles. So your wife may be making this an issue about you, but it isn't about you. It is a spiritual issue.

Likewise, the desire for family time in accordance with your religion stems from the parents' commitment to their religion. Family time happens because both parents are committed to a higher power. Sure there are other reasons but that is the main one.

I don't know how to change the way someone with BPD thinks. If I could, I'd have changed my mom first. Your task is to figure out how to live according to your values with a person who may not be thinking about things like you are. This is tough, but if your value is family time, then you might need to make it happen in a way that invites and includes your wife but doesn't depend on her as much.

[Grey Kitty]

This works for an episode or two... .and then you realize it's been two weeks and not everyone has sat around the table to share a prayer and a meal. 

More often than not... .it doesn't work.

I'm not saying you are wrong... .but what you are doing isn't working, and isn't going to either. Here's how I see it.

You want the whole family together for a shared meal, prayer, and family time. You don't do the work of making it happen. You don't make sure all 8 kids are there at the same time. You don't cook the meal. You come home from work, and want it to happen... .with the (mostly unspoken) expectation that your wife will make it all happen for you, in the way that you want it.

... .your desire is not wrong. Expecting your wife to manage the household isn't wrong. Expecting her to manage it the way you want it managed isn't working well.


If you accept that this sort of shared meal that you want, with 100% attendance is likely to happen once or twice a month, you will be a lot happier.

[formflier]

 

Good point Grey,

Yes... .I'm not getting what I want.  However... .I'm also not allowing my wife to live in her fantasy world that she is being a model Christian wife... .etc etc etc.

I'm making sure the light shines on areas of dysfunction... .that makes her uncomfortable.  Most of the periods of change that have happened in our r/s have come from times when she was uncomfortable and changed ways.

I don't get to determine when she changes... .but I do get to control my side of the dynamic.  Then... .I get to be patient (very hard).

As I have looked at past behavior... .even before I knew about BPD... appeasing her or not making a big deal about things seemed to only feed the monster.  However... .making a big deal... .or too big a deal... .about things didn't really help either.

The nuance... .at least for me... .is finding the middle ground where I shine the light... .and keep suggesting healthy behavior... .without coming off as a persecutor.

Still working on this one... .but that is the general theory.

My other general theory of making things better in the r/s... .is that I have to take the opportunities that come along... .(such as the naked picture I got sent... . ) to highlight issues rather than trying to determine my own agenda for a given week or month.

I wish I could determine my own agenda... .but it just doesn't seem to be working... .

Keep the advice coming... .

[formflier]

 

Grey,

Also... .I've made some efforts at "doing or controlling" family night... .where I do the work and she just has to show up.

Success rate there is not much different than with her in charge of preparations.

Interesting you brought this up.  Because this got me thinking... .the nights (it's been while)... .where the kids cook and mom and dad clean up... .those work well to get everyone together.

Hmmmmm... .


I think I'm going to have to try and figure a way to get those going again... .

[KateCat]

the nights (it's been while)... .where the kids cook and mom and dad clean up... .those work well to get everyone together.

 

One way of thinking about serious mental illness might be that it "takes a village" to work with. And you've got this great thing going for you in that you have your own village, in the form of eight children of varying ages.

In my experience, strategies like "TLC" ("tiny little changes", "shining the light," "making her uncomfortable," "walking her back" to normality are not really practical in the face of a mental health issue that is serious, chronic and pervasive.

I think the kids are your way forward. These kinds of family nights would fit well with your family's core values and strengthen the character and self-confidence of the kids, wouldn't they?

[Turkish]

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