Odd false choice seems to be attempt to get password

[formflier]

I've been absent a bit from the boards lately.  Very busy with job search.

Some nasty financial papers showed up against my wife... .she has a judgement against her and they are trying to collect. 

If you remember she grabbed money and distributed it as she saw fit... .$30k worth.  Now she wants a solution to pay this off... .somehow expects me to solve this.  Have tried and failed to have conversation about this.

And... the odd choice that came up today... .and the one that has me really bummed... .is that she apparently has moved another child into the house... .as a "ministry".  Because I have "my space" on my email... .she can have "her space" in the house... .and I can do nothing about it.

He has been in the house for 5 days now.  He has visited before... .my wife thinks she is helping him out because he has a bad family... they don't pay attention to him. 

We have had snow days... .and got the word that today was a snow day again... it was a bit unexpected.  I asked if we could take the kid home so we could have family time this afternoon.

We have not had a family dinner or any interaction without this kid present for 5 days.

I would not say it was an abusive conversation... as in yelling... .but it was bizarre.  Kept bringing up unrelated stuff... .that I don't think ever happened... or I said... .or thought... .

She seems to have it in her head that since this is her ministry... .there is no compromise and I don't want to help the kid.

I stuck with an even delivery of I want to help the kid... .I'm not saying my way or highway... .but I would like compromise... some time focused on helping him... sharing what we have... .and some time where we can be a family and enjoy the special part of us being a family.

So... .it was very odd... .she seems very resolute... .even "perky" about it.

The kid is a horror to have around... .speaks harshly to other kids... .calls them "idiots"... the kind of behavior we don't tolerate in our kids.  Our kids behavior has gone south... .bad... .since he has been here. 

He doesn't listen to me... .generally listens to my wife when she is around.  But... .she seems to think he can be here... .she can leave... and he will be fine... .even though he doesn't listen or mind me.

I'll be honest... .I'm scared of this.  Maybe she has figured out that I "make moves" when she backs me in a corner about kids... .not sure.  I'm not going to tolerate the impact this is having on the family... .and on me.  No idea what "not tolerating" it looks like.

I'm not giving up the password... .

I don't know what happens... .or what I can do if she moves another person in the house... .

She knows this is rub point between us... .he has been around for couple days before... .never this long.  She knows he doesn't mind... .has made promises I won't have to deal with it... .but... promises with pwBPD traits don't got so well.

I have no idea where to go from here... .

[Notwendy]

Wow this is a tough one. I have a friend who adopted another older child like this into her family. It has pros and cons. However, her H is in agreement with this.

I love kids, but I know my limits. My H would not be interested in doing this. I feel as if my kids need all of my attention in the home. However, because I love to help kids, I do things like volunteer tutoring, helping drive older kids to work or school if they have parents who can't, participate in school clothing/food drives and so on.

This way, I feel I can help without compromising the needs/wishes of my family.

Does your wife see this as an all or none thing? That is, this is helping and if we send him home we are not helping. Is there some middle ground where you can support her ministry through helping children in other ways and also having your family boundaries at home?


Perhaps approaching her with what you can do to help with her ministry would validate her and then also present your boundaries to take care of yours.

[Grey Kitty]

I have no idea where to go from here... .

I was talking to a good friend and she reminded me of this quote that I shared with her:

Don't let them bring the fight down to their level. They will fight you there, then beat you with experience!

I think you are letting her define the terms of engagement in very unhealthy ways. One is a bizarre mixing of issues, and another is letting her confuse the nature of the conflicts, getting away from real choices and diving into circular arguments around "She thinks your actions and her actions means... ."  

Here are the actual conflict issues I think you were describing:

1. You aren't giving your wife a password and she wants it.

2. Your wife made a $30k financial mess a while back and is pushing you to solve the problem for her now.

3. Your wife brought a child into the house that is causing problems for your kids, and frustrating you.

I don't see anything that ties those issues together other than your wife being unreasonable / dysregulated about all of them.

Don't let her tie them together in some bogus fashion. (I hope you remember how badly 'deals' with her have gone, at least every one you've described here!)

Can you pick the most important issue of the three and making this topic about it, then creating a second or third topic about the others (if/when you need support in addressing them)?

[Notwendy]

About the child? What else is your wife gaining from this? I wonder because she may be benefitting from people seeing her as a good person, or a good Christian ( I know that's your faith). Is this perhaps one way she is interpreting being a good Christian and a way to make herself feel better about yourself?

I admire my friend for helping the child she took in. However, I see some BPD qualities in her with regards to her family. These don't effect me or our friendship. She's not a symptomatic as my mom, and like my mom, has great friends who she is good to, and the issues remain in the home. If I was not so sensitive to this, I would probably not notice.

However, my friend has painted one of her kids white and the other one black. This has caused problems for the one who is black ( and certainly being the white child isn't great either ). The black child can not do anything right in her mother's eyes. She does not receive much emotional support or validation from her parents. However, the new family member is also painted white, and gets a lot of the family attention. In a sense, it looks like the mother was disappointed with her own child and brought in a replacement. The black child actually likes the new child, but she feels she has been replaced as well.

Something to wonder about- not sure it applies to you, but this is how I observed it.

[vortex of confusion]

How old is this child? Where are the kid's parents? Is the kid in school?

I am curious if there is a way that you could find help for this kid that doesn't involve him living in your house. If he gets help somewhere else and has a better place to stay, then maybe he will leave and things will become a non-issue. Is the kid being used to triangulate with you?

Some practical stuff about the judgment to think about:

-Is your name anywhere on the judgment? What assets do you have that are shared? What are the laws in your state regarding what can and can't be done with a judgment? How will the judgment against her impact you? I ask these questions because you need to be prepared for whatever legal ramifications may happen.

We were in a tight financial situation and I couldn't pay all of his credit card bills. I did all of the figuring and knew what to expect before I did this. I had a couple of different plans, none of which involved saving my husband. I quit paying his credit card bills and told him that he needed to do something about the credit card debt because we didn't have the money to deal with it. I think it was a month or two of me not paying before he found a debt management program to help him pay his credit card bills.

With regard to the password: Have you tried the "help me understand why having my password is s important"? What is it that she wants to see? Is it a power play on her part? Is there a way that you can circumvent your wife on this? I don't like being secretive or deceptive but I have created alternate email accounts. Also, do you have separate email accounts for home, work, etc.? We have a shared email account that I use for all of our rewards cards, ads, and BS. I have a personal email account and I have my work email accounts. On my work email accounts that are hosted on work servers, I had to agree NOT to give out my passwords to anyone (typical terms of service agreement). Is there a way to appease her without going back on the no password boundary? "I won't give you my password but I will sit down with you and show you my email account."

[MaroonLiquid]

It seems to me that she is keeping you embroiled in no-win situations with all of this that are ultimately about her not having to deal with the real issue (the judgement).  She is trying to project all her bad feelings about herself onto you for not "doing the right thing" by that kid, or giving her your email password (so you must be hiding something), when she is the one that does.

[ColdEthyl]

Whew Formflier... .you got yourself a crafty one there. I admire that you are sticking to your guns and not giving up your password. But... .wow. It does seem to me she's using this kid to try to maneuver you into some sort of deal.

I am also curious about the situation surrounding the child. It might give us some clues as to what we can come up with to help you.

 

[formflier]

 

Apparently... .she is not budging... .there will be no family time tonight.  Or... .she has redefined family to include him.   

We will see.

So... .my wife has a history of trying to save "wounded kids"... .help them.  She has a degree in early childhood education... .she is very good at it.  She is great teacher... .

However... .she has now taken on this... ."no compromise" mindset. 

She claims I do not help her in "her ministry"  (this is the first time she has used that phrase)... .The kid being here for 5 days and my trying to help... .is not helping.

Helping is only defined as we do it her way... .  She actually said this... .

Since I have my "private space" on my computer... .she can have her "private space" in the house and do whatever she wants.  I get no say... .there is nothing I can do about it.  Again... .those are exact words... .or 99% exact... .I don't have recording.  She was not yelling or "dysregulated" while doing it... .

Unless this is a new version of being dysregulated.    The mixing of arguments is typical of her dysregulation.

So... .my plan is to ask is she will get in front of our MC (if possible) or a minister (since this is a "ministry" issue)... .to help guide us to a compromise. 

If that doesn't work... .I'll have to talk to a L... .but... .this doesn't work for me. 

Honestly... .it is about half about the kid and the impact I see him having (negative)... .and about half of it is the "there will be no compromise" stance on issues.

The claims of me not being able to compromise... .when that is what I am offering... .is just projection... smoke.

[ColdEthyl]

It's not a dysregulation thing... .but they can come up with these weird-o connections to things that don't have a connection. For an example, my H will sometimes get into this thing where he wants to talk for an hour or two straight. He says since I work all day and I am around 2 other people, and he is home all day around no one with no one to talk to, then he should be allowed to talk as much as he wants, and I should have to listen.

That's ridiculous. My being at work has nothing to do with anything... .he just wants to run his mouth and needs a 'reason' for it. To me, this sounds something like that. She wants that password... .and she has drawn some imaginary lines between the two events to justify her thought process.

[formflier]

 

It appears she may be getting a bit reasonable... .

She just came upstairs and said if I was going to be around for a while that she would take the kid home.

I told her I would really appreciate that... .

Sigh... .I am very tired of this... .

[MaroonLiquid]

It appears she may be getting a bit reasonable... .

She just came upstairs and said if I was going to be around for a while that she would take the kid home.

I told her I would really appreciate that... .

Sigh... .I am very tired of this... .

That's good!  I know what you mean by being tired of it. 

[formflier]

 

Interesting... .

He hasn't been taken home yet... .I'm not going to push.

Also... .she talked to the Sheriff office about the judgement paper... .and... .they said they weren't going to be able to do anything about it.

She had been claiming they would come load up stuff out of garage and cart it off... .

I had talked to lawyers... .and thought otherwise.

So... .after she said this... I didn't rub it in... .just said that was good news.

I've seen some guys use the phrase "catastrophize" everything as the way some with BPD go about this... .that sure was the case for my r/s on this issue... .

Now that it's obvious there is no catastrophe... .I guess it is life back to normal... .

[Grey Kitty]

Whew. Sounds like she's standing down.

Look for things you can validate. (There is so much invalid she wants validated!)

Her desire to help this kid is a good thing. That isn't the same as her bad judgement to 'help' by messing with the stability of her own kids. The compassion that motivates her is a beautiful thing.

Reminds me a bit of where my wife has been for quite a few months--not abusive, not raging, not full-on dysregulation... .but still caught in some of the twisted mental/emotional processes that drove her other BPD symptoms.

[MaroonLiquid]

Reminds me a bit of where my wife has been for quite a few months--not abusive, not raging, not full-on dysregulation... .but still caught in some of the twisted mental/emotional processes that drove her other BPD symptoms.

Same with my wife.  I think they are starting to realize their methods aren't working like they used to... .

[ColdEthyl]

Hang in there formflier!   

[formflier]

 

Yep...

Kid got taken home

Had nice evening playing cards with family.  Wife and I had snuggle time by the fire on the couch... .it's like nothing ever happened. 

We are in for snow day tomorrow at school... .I need to make sure I get a good night's sleep so I can be ready... .for whatever.

One of the scary things about today... .is that I was not full up on sleep... .basically... .I knew I was at a bit of a disadvantage.

My wife's instincts about who needs help and that kind of thing are spot on.  It's her methods of going about things that are horrific.

[Grey Kitty]

  YAY for sudden peace. Especially when you need it!

One of the scary things about today... .is that I was not full up on sleep... .basically... .I knew I was at a bit of a disadvantage.

Looking back, I'm not surprised... .you sounded a lot more ... .err... .befuddled by the situation than I'd expect you to when you are more "on your game" so to speak.

Like I said, enjoy the peace. Especially since you need to get caught up on sleep and take good care of yourself. But don't trust it. As an engineer, I absolutely HATED problems that went away for no reason I could understand... .because I figured the exact same thing could make them come back any time!

My wife's instincts about who needs help and that kind of thing are spot on.  It's her methods of going about things that are horrific.

And that is a good one to file away for later revisiting. In a kind, validating, coaching way, you may be able to work with her to really improve things for people in your community.

[formflier]

Looking back, I'm not surprised... .you sounded a lot more ... .err... .befuddled by the situation than I'd expect you to when you are more "on your game" so to speak.

And... .also... .this is a "pressure point" that I am vulnerable to.   Or... another way of saying it... .is when it involves what happens in the house... and my kids... .I have a lot less flexibility for BPD silliness than other things.

If she had limited it to "you told a counselor several years ago that you would never have an effective ministry because of me... "... .I would have been 100%... .even if tired.

Yeah... she actually said that... .during the discussion... .and no... .I have no memory of ever thinking or saying something like that. 

I got a good nights sleep... .and I'm looking forward to a good day. 

Wondering if I just find a good time and try to validate some of her helping instincts... .and see if that brings up the issue for us to work on in a good way... .or if I just try to have a good day.

[Notwendy]

Looking into co-dependency made me look at "helping" in a different way. We might think we are helping, but what we really are doing is rescuing, controlling, validating ourselves. It is also important to consider boundaries. Bringing a child into your home is a huge decision. There are pros and cons. You have to think about other family members, time, resources. You know that. You are the other parent and I would think that bringing a child home would involve the two of you. It astounds me that she didn't at least talk to you about how long the child would stay.

This is a bit of a grey area since I didn't ask my H if my kids' friends could stay over for a sleepover, or even for a few days. There was a time when one of my kid's friends water heated broke and the child stayed until it was repaired. However in all those incidents, my H understood that it was temporary. However, moving a child from a troubled home indefinitely is not something to do without all parents on board.

I also think your wife has a narrow view of "ministry". I don't mean to get into your religious values or how you do it, but I have rarely seen people feel they have to have people move in with them as a ministry. One of my friends started a soup kitchen and I know a lot of volunteers there. Some volunteer at a free clinic, schools, donate to charity and so on. Some people take mission trips. I do know of some who have added to their families by adoption- but always with the parents in agreement. It's a good value to teach kids- there are angel trees at Christmas time and other ways for kids to be part of doing good for others.

One can help others and have boundaries. I know you know that. However, if someone is intent on testing boundaries they will do it. Can you decide what kind of ways you would participate in a ministry with your wife and how you would feel you can support her wish to do one?

[formflier]

  However, if someone is intent on testing boundaries they will do it. 

I think you have nailed it... .this is essentially a boundary issue about "control" of the house.

Also interesting to note that we are reading (together) the Boundaries book.  We haven't discussed it much together yet.

I love religious discussions... .so no worries going there.  What I think my wife was trying to express was that helping kids is one of her "gifts"... .vice her ministry. 

However... .I think the BPD traits in her came out when trying to insulate herself from criticism.  This thought that since it was her ministry... .there were no choices. 

Yes... .I was astounded too at what she was saying that she could decide to do without me.  However... .she backed down. 

I need to find some way to honor that good behavior today.  I need to be careful to not do it in a condescending way

[Notwendy]

While one can value religion, it is possible to misuse it as well. Someone with dysfunctional thinking might consider something like a "ministry" to justify a decision and so make it noble and immune to criticism.

One of my issues was "honor your parents" which meant mom had absolute power over us. However, a subtle interpretation of this is that, yes, you should honor a parent's request in most cases, but if a parent asks you to do something unethical, then you should not honor it. If a parent asks you to rob a bank, you should not comply. I do not honor my mother's wishes when it comes to violating my own boundaries. Thankfully she has not asked me to do something illegal - she's a moral person. However, I don't have to honor her wishes to rage, order me around, or be available to her whenever she wants.

Ministries are good in general, but if a ministly involves hurting the people you are committed to love and protect- your children, your marriage, then this raises the question of is this a good ministry?  Choosing to violate your boundaries and then calling it a ministry doesn't fly with me.

My H has done this using "work" as the noble excuse. Yes, he supports us. I am grateful, but using that as a means of justifying being inconsiderate with me and violating the trust between us over money doesn't make that OK.

[KateCat]

I wonder if you are getting down to some of the main issues in your marriage now.

If your wife has a degree in early childhood development, and if she sees her efforts in the realm of guiding children as a calling, then I wonder how she feels about the difficult family events you and she have weathered this past year in your own family's life? Could she feel that you have tried to wrest this ministry from her by involving other people? Maybe she feels deeply challenged in her core identity and is herself involving non-family members now in an effort to regain a sense of mastery and of self.

Hopefully you guys can continue family counseling for some time yet. (And continuing to read Boundaries, of course.  )

[formflier]

I wonder if you are getting down to some of the main issues in your marriage now.

KateCat,

I think you are right... .I think this is a much bigger deal to her than a random feeling of abandonment and her lashing out with a "you don't love me" statement or something like that.

So... .knowing it is most likely a core thing... .I need to tread carefully and validate... .focus on positive... .think about making sure my words don't sound critical.

I'm sure she took my request to send kid home as a criticism of her efforts...

I need to find an appropriate way to thank her today... .I really did enjoy the family time last night.  We all played Rook... .and had a great time just being us.

[KateCat]

You're doing such great work. 

[ColdEthyl]

I wonder if you are getting down to some of the main issues in your marriage now.

KateCat,

I think you are right... .I think this is a much bigger deal to her than a random feeling of abandonment and her lashing out with a "you don't love me" statement or something like that.

So... .knowing it is most likely a core thing... .I need to tread carefully and validate... .focus on positive... .think about making sure my words don't sound critical.

I'm sure she took my request to send kid home as a criticism of her efforts...

I need to find an appropriate way to thank her today... .I really did enjoy the family time last night.  We all played Rook... .and had a great time just being us.

I don't know what works for yours... .but for mine I would say something like "I really enjoyed family time last night." and "I really appreciate you and your willingness and ability to help others."

Using the word "appreciate" goes far with my H. He likes that and when I follow up a statement of appreciation with "I know it's hard for you to do X, and it helps me out so much that you did X'

[Grey Kitty]

I think you are right... .I think this is a much bigger deal to her than a random feeling of abandonment and her lashing out with a "you don't love me" statement or something like that.

So... .knowing it is most likely a core thing... .I need to tread carefully and validate... .focus on positive... .think about making sure my words don't sound critical.

I think this is room for validation in a form not far from one of your favorites: "Help me understand... ."

Really put yourself in a position of curiosity and interest--that you want to know how this sort of ministry and caring works for her, what she wants to accomplish.

The hard part will be building enough trust that she doesn't think you are asking about it to tell her that she's doing it wrong. (Which you obviously felt she was, by disrupting your household and your kids' lives!)

So really work on the genuine interest in her passion/dreams/whatever around this... .and make sure you are sincere before you start asking about it. She will be a lot more sensitive to your insincerity / suspicion than you are, and it will not bring out her best!

[formflier]

 

I think I'm going to go for appreciate first... .and if that goes well... .see if I can ask about understanding why this is a big deal to her.

Will be tricky for me... .because I do think she is doing things wrong... .but I have to get that out of my head... .

Should be able to get after it here in an hour or so

[Notwendy]

What about the kid?

I realize that this is about you and your wife. However, what was the child led to believe? Did he think he was welcome in a home that was better than his and then only to be returned home?

I get that this is one of your wife's core values, and that she may be seeking validation through helping others, however, her validation also included a young vulnerable child. I understand that he was a behavioral mess, but how did he feel about being sent home? Did he feel unlovable or rejected?

I know this is going to sound critical. Maybe "helping" this child was good for your wife, and it helped her think she was a wonderful caring person- but this was a child who is not able to fully process what is going on or consent to anything- even being a member of someone's family. One can't use a child to validate yourself.

Having a degree in early childhood development is great, but kids don't stay kids ( you know that) and you can't take in a kid and then just return them later without causing some damage to the child. The kid you take in will become the teenager later. He/she will interact with everyone in the family.

I love kids, but have several reasons that I would not adopt one into my family in addition to my own kids. It isn't the same as a new sibling- older kids are similar ages to existing sibs and that changes the dynamics.  My H is happy that I like to help kids- he knows that I volunteer in schools and have even helped take older kids to work or college if they needed rides. However, I know that he does not want the additional parenting or financial responsibilities of taking in another child. It would be inconsiderate to him to expect him to do this - and not even ask him first. However, it would also be inconsiderate to the child to bring him into a home where he would not be loved and cherished by both parents. My main reason for not doing this is because I think it is a serious comitment, and unless both parents are on board to make that commitment- then it isn't fair to the child to do this.

You may want to reinforce your wife's caring for children, but still, this seems impulsive to me and sadly a child may pay the price for that. I hope that you can support your wife's ministry in a way that both of you can be invested in.

[Notwendy]

I know this probably sounds harsh and I know your wife had good intentions, but I am protective when it comes to kids- having felt responsible for my mother's feelings from a young age.

[formflier]

I know this probably sounds harsh and I know your wife had good intentions, but I am protective when it comes to kids- having felt responsible for my mother's feelings from a young age.

Not harsh at all... it's a good point.

I'm 99% positive the kid didn't overhear any talking about taking him home.

I have no idea what my wife told him.

To me... .the problem solver in me seems to think that when/if he comes over... there is an expected return time.

I have no idea what was communicated to him when he came over... .I had no idea he was coming.  I was out of town doing an interview... .and when I returned... .he was there.  5 days later... .he was still there.

I asked for family time... and that is when story started.