Odd false choice seems to be attempt to get password

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

It would have been good if your wife had communicated the visit to you ( and the child too I hope). "Billy's grandmother is ill and he is staying with us for a few days so his mother can visit her" would have been clearer than coming home and finding a child in your home with no knowlege of how long he is staying.

Many kids have stayed with us for such reasons, and if it is longer than a few days, I try to discuss it with my H. When my father was ill, sometimes my friends helped with my kids so I could see him. I think this is the sort of thing people just do to help out, and my H doesn't expect me to ask him all the time. However, I we both are clear on the boundaries we have about this and I think this is one reason he's OK with having kids visit. Sometimes our kids just want to have friends over too, but as you say, there is a beginning and and end to the visit.

I am getting a sense that this is an issue over your desire for family time- and this is a wish that you need your wife to cooperate with and here is the breakdown. You want family time, she sends kids off to relatives or invites more over. She has power over something you want. For this to happen, she has to cooperate. Your wish is, in a sense, in her hands.

You can't control what she does, even if you have an agreement with her. Is there some way you can take this process into your own hands, and make it happen for you?  We try to have family time, but I also like to see "daddy time". My H was not interested in taking care of small children, but as the kids got older and could share his interests, he will do things like take them to a movie - maybe one that I don't want to see, or share another hobby with them. We don't have the number of kids that you do- but maybe you could plan something with your older ones, then the younger ones. Maybe set a date for dinner, ask all the kids to be there ( you ask) then ask your wife, bring in family style take out or heat a casserole that you have in the freezer. Now, your wife could sabotage this, but that would be her doing this deliberately. Putting something in her hands leaves it open to passive aggressiveness.

What prompted the daddy time for me was that the kids were getting older. I had been doing most everything and so they would come to me with their needs. As they got older and had their own friends and interests, they didn't seek out their parents as much and my H started saying things like " the kids ignore me". He expected to have the kids clear their schedules- drop everything- and be with him and his time with them would be all arranged. I was able to explain to him that he needed to express his wishes to them directly, not through me, and not expect them to read his mind and suddenly drop plans for a school event, or with friends- that even though he is their father, he has to communicate his wishes to them. Now he will say "on Saturday let's go see that new movie" and the kids are happy to go. If we have a special family time meal planned, I will let everyone know. It's a two way street too, as sometimes the kids will say " there's a game at school we want to go to".

We are still the parents and make the rules, but being collaborative with the kids as they get older has led to what I think is better time together than if one person held the others to their wishes.

[Notwendy]

It would have been good if your wife had communicated the visit to you ( and the child too I hope). "Billy's grandmother is ill and he is staying with us for a few days so his mother can visit her" would have been clearer than coming home and finding a child in your home with no knowlege of how long he is staying.

Many kids have stayed with us for such reasons, and if it is longer than a few days, I try to discuss it with my H. When my father was ill, sometimes my friends helped with my kids so I could see him. I think this is the sort of thing people just do to help out, and my H doesn't expect me to ask him all the time. However, I we both are clear on the boundaries we have about this and I think this is one reason he's OK with having kids visit. Sometimes our kids just want to have friends over too, but as you say, there is a beginning and and end to the visit.

I am getting a sense that this is an issue over your desire for family time- and this is a wish that you need your wife to cooperate with and here is the breakdown. You want family time, she sends kids off to relatives or invites more over. She has power over something you want. For this to happen, she has to cooperate. Your wish is, in a sense, in her hands.

You can't control what she does, even if you have an agreement with her. Is there some way you can take this process into your own hands, and make it happen for you?  We try to have family time, but I also like to see "daddy time". My H was not interested in taking care of small children, but as the kids got older and could share his interests, he will do things like take them to a movie - maybe one that I don't want to see, or share another hobby with them. We don't have the number of kids that you do- but maybe you could plan something with your older ones, then the younger ones. Maybe set a date for dinner, ask all the kids to be there ( you ask) then ask your wife, bring in family style take out or heat a casserole that you have in the freezer. Now, your wife could sabotage this, but that would be her doing this deliberately. Putting something in her hands leaves it open to passive aggressiveness.

What prompted the daddy time for me was that the kids were getting older. I had been doing most everything and so they would come to me with their needs. As they got older and had their own friends and interests, they didn't seek out their parents as much and my H started saying things like " the kids ignore me". He expected to have the kids clear their schedules- drop everything- and be with him and his time with them would be all arranged. I was able to explain to him that he needed to express his wishes to them directly, not through me, and not expect them to read his mind and suddenly drop plans for a school event, or with friends- that even though he is their father, he has to communicate his wishes to them. Now he will say "on Saturday let's go see that new movie" and the kids are happy to go. If we have a special family time meal planned, I will let everyone know. It's a two way street too, as sometimes the kids will say " there's a game at school we want to go to".

We are still the parents and make the rules, but being collaborative with the kids as they get older has led to what I think is better time together than if one person held the others to their wishes.

[formflier]

\

I am getting a sense that this is an issue over your desire for family time- and this is a wish that you need your wife to cooperate with and here is the breakdown. 

Yes... .we have a winner.

My desire was to have time with our family.  To sit around the dinner table and be with each other... .no agenda... .just eat and talk.  I'm fine with sharing that sometimes... .we do that often.

But... .when you start realizing it has been weeks since the family sat around the table... .and when I am emotional down... .and hoping for a "recharge" from something I really enjoy. 

I communicate that to my wife... .she says I'm not helping her agenda (ignoring the last 5 days)... .and all the rest... .

Yep... .this is really the issue.

It was not about the kid... .I would have wanted anyone else to go home also... .

Now... .I do need to acknowledge that we got to the point that I wanted... .and I was very happy with it... .I am recharged... .and all that.

I'm also a "process" guy... .at work... and at home.  And the process I have to go through to get this... .stinks. 

I'm trying to change the process... .but running up against the fact that half of it is not in my control... .

We'll keep working it

[Notwendy]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

Maybe this would work in a family where the parents are not dealing with some kind of dysfunction- where cooperation is the goal, but this way of thinking may not work with a dysfunctional person.

Many times my attempts to do something cooperative- where I really need my H on board- like moving something, requiring a truck- things that are really hard for me to do without his involvement- these things can break down when his style of thinking turns it into something that invalidates him. I don't even have to do or say anything to have this happen.

Once I was finally- as an adult- able to listen to what my mom felt about things, I could realize how so many things in our family life were perceived as being invalidating to her- even if they were not intended. Many times, if I offered advice- that would trigger her. Asking her to do something would trigger her, just like it triggers my H. He somehow feels he is being ordered around, putting him in power down position in his mind. Also, my mom interprets being asked to do something caring and nice as being insulted- like she is some kind of servant. She also feels validated by bossing us around. She also felt as if she didn't have much control of her life since it revolved around other people- dad's job, kids. The summary of her actions can be said as such:

My mother's constant (internal) feelings of being disempowered and invalidated resulted in her taking opportunities to grab power wherever she could.

Even if this meant behaving badly. Making everyone late for something because we had to wait for her was power. Telling something personal about me when I asked her not to was power. Not giving me a graduation present when I hoped she would was her having the power to disappoint me.

What I learned was that if I wanted something, needed something done, I had to take complete charge of it. Maybe this isn't fair or right, but wanting a disordered person to meet my needs gives them the power to choose to do it or not. If their natural state is to feel disempowered, a request to do something could possibly accentuate it. They might take their power back by not doing it or changing it in some way.

[Notwendy]

One example of this thinking was at one of my father's birthdays. She had a cake, and  I brought a cake too ( store bought ).  I figured it was not a big deal, there would just be more cake. She could even just put out hers with candles on it and people could eat the second cake later, or she could give it to a neighbor. I didn't think much about it.

However, I think to her, somehow she thought my bringing a cake was invalidating to her- her cake was wrong, she can't provide a good enough cake. So, she threw it away. Also, she wanted total control of her kitchen.

[MaroonLiquid]

My mother's constant (internal) feelings of being disempowered and invalidated resulted in her taking opportunities to grab power wherever she could.

This is my wife to a T.  Taking and controlling the power is the only way they know how to cope with those feelings of disempowerment, abandonment and invalidation.

[formflier]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

You are correct... .and in this case... .I don't see a way around it.

If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

Doing my own power grab and pushing her out... .would validate certain feelings or claims she makes about me.

I think that my demonstrating good behavior... by asking... .by working towards compromise... .is the right way to go.  Yep... .sometimes it makes her uncomfortable... .triggers her... .

I think that is her issue to deal with... .I don't want to blame or accuse her... .but I also don't want to avoid doing normal healthy behavior to appease her. 

I'm open to suggestions... .but above is my take on it...

[MaroonLiquid]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

You are correct... .and in this case... .I don't see a way around it.

If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

I feel the same way.  I love family time.

Doing my own power grab and pushing her out... .would validate certain feelings or claims she makes about me.

I think that my demonstrating good behavior... by asking... .by working towards compromise... .is the right way to go.  Yep... .sometimes it makes her uncomfortable... .triggers her... .

I think that is her issue to deal with... .I don't want to blame or accuse her... .but I also don't want to avoid doing normal healthy behavior to appease her. 

I'm open to suggestions... .but above is my take on it...

I'll say this, and maybe this because this is where I'm at right now in my r/s and I'm looking through those glasses.  Sometimes you have to exert power and show strength and not be afraid to.  Not in push/pull, control or pushing her out, but instead, coming from a place of strength and character.  You are in a different place than I am with my wife, so take that for what it's worth.  I just feel that appeasing my wife during the last 8 months and longer has "told her" that I will always give in and be a pushover if she throws a fit. 

[formflier]

  I just feel that appeasing my wife during the last 8 months and longer has "told her" that I will always give in and be a pushover if she throws a fit. 

Maroon,

Very insightful comment... .one that I think anyone reading this thread should take a long look at.

The way we act and react "tells" our partner many things... .we need to be very careful what we tell our partner with our actions... .and realize that we will reap what we sow... .

[MaroonLiquid]

 I just feel that appeasing my wife during the last 8 months and longer has "told her" that I will always give in and be a pushover if she throws a fit.  

Maroon,

Very insightful comment... .one that I think anyone reading this thread should take a long look at.

The way we act and react "tells" our partner many things... .we need to be very careful what we tell our partner with our actions... .and realize that we will reap what we sow... .

The law of reaping and sowing is as real as the law of gravity... .The thing I had to realize is that because I am communicating through softball team emails (healthy), I shouldn't feel guilty.  She sent an email yesterday that said our daughter would be there and I responded and said, "Great! thanks for letting me know."   By doing that, I'm treating her like any other parent on the team (which is what she asked of me a couple of weeks ago because she didn't want to be "seen" as my wife), I'm communicating and responding to her, and therefore, I'm not abandoning her.  I'm choosing for myself to have healthier communication and if she feels like I'm abandoning her because of that, I can't change that.  Healthy communication starts with me, and I'm done with only being texted when it is something that she can try, bait me with, accuse me of or ask me for something.  Yes, I do realize this is uncomfortable for her  (it is for me too) and makes her angry... .

[Notwendy]

"If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

Doing my own power grab and pushing her out... .would validate certain feelings or claims she makes about me."

I see your point, but it is a distinction between the intent of an action that makes the difference. Being responsible for our own feelings is not a power grab, but owning our own power. We have discussed this a lot in MC- the difference between being co-dependent and inter-dependent and it is very subtle. My H doesn't quite buy into it. He sees me as something that can make him feel good or bad. In this case, he gives me that power and so can attribute his happiness to me or blame me. By contrast, if I see him (or he sees me) as not having the power to do this, I can be responsible for my feelings. We can still do the same things together, but without me looking to him for my happiness.

This distinction is theoretical. Sure, if my H were to come home with another woman and say "hey she's moving in with me". I'd be mad as a hornet. But by being responsible for my feelings, I would be able to take action on it, not look at him to change. Likewise, if my H brought me flowers, made dinner, and cleaned the kitchen, I'd be over the moon, but still I don't need to give him the power to determine my happiness.

There is a subtle difference in how both these situations feel and the outcome. When my H approaches me with an expectation to do something so that he is soothed or validated, it feels a bit icky to me because when I do it, it comes not from the heart, but from something different- fear, obligation- and the result is that I feel resentment. One of these was his expectation that I cook meals for him every night. Well, this isn't a bad thing- I do it most of the time. However, things might come up- child not well, school function, and since my H was basing his feeling good on my cooking dinner, he'd feel bad if I didn't. I could sense that and dinner became an obligation that I resented, because I was doing it to pacify him. It also didn't feel good to him since that is sort of a condescending attitude.

On the other hand, If I focus on my reasons for cooking-I want to cook- I like it, feeding my family, its nutritious, and so on. The action is the same, the result different for me.

Family time in our house happens because I value it for many reasons- I like it, it is good for us, good for raising kids. My H enjoys it, and maybe gets recharged from it, but he does not obligate me to do it for his feelings.

Taking responsibility for your feelings and wanting family time isn't a power grab from your wife. It is a subtle difference in your expectations and how you react to the outcome. Of course it is good to give positive feedback for it. Ironically - could letting go of how you want your wife to do this give you different results?

[formflier]

Taking responsibility for your feelings and wanting family time isn't a power grab from your wife. It is a subtle difference in your expectations and how you react to the outcome. Of course it is good to give positive feedback for it. Ironically - could letting go of how you want your wife to do this give you different results?

I see where you are going with this... .but I'm struggling to figure out how to apply it.

If my wife has the power to bring a kid to our house... .I guess in this case... .I would have the power to take him home.  No need to ask... .and ... .we have family time. 

I suspect it would not go well for my wife... .

So... .how could I "do" your idea.?

[Notwendy]

Well- what happened with the child involved a child so I would say that is something to discuss with your wife- your boundary on inviting other kids over and for how long. I think you can ask her to consider your feelings but she has the choice to do that or not. Your choice is how to respond to it.

I don't know how you arrange family time with your wife. In some families it is made part of the family routine- for instance Sunday dinners but it can be any night you choose- keeping in mind that for older kids - social events are usually Friday and Saturday nights. You don't want it to be something the family resents- but you can sit down with your wife and make some plan for family night. Hopefully she will be able to discuss her feelings about it . She may have different ideas- maybe you want twice a week but she feels she can only do one as there are things going on with the kids or other things. Can you let go of your ideas about how it should be done, or perhaps your fear that it won't be done if it isn't done how you like it and see what happens if she does it her way? You never know but it might be better than if you were disappointed in how it goes. You might not like it if it doesn't always work out but could you enjoy the way it is anyway- like an extra kid at the table or one of your children went to grandmas? You might find out that your wife plans family time differently and that's ok too

[Notwendy]

I see bringing the child home indefinitely as a whole different thing as this should only be done with both parents involved ( and the child's family) . If it was temporary then you needed to know that. It is not a ministry to bring a child into a home to live without the parents wanting this. It's not fair to the child.

[formflier]

I see bringing the child home indefinitely as a whole different thing as this should only be done with both parents involved ( and the child's family) . If it was temporary then you needed to know that. It is not a ministry to bring a child into a home to live without the parents wanting this. It's not fair to the child.

I agree... .she has backed off this claim... .but it certainly shows the twisted thinking that can come up.

[formflier]

  Can you let go of your ideas about how it should be done,

The only idea that I can't let go of... .is that family needs to be there... .otherwise... .it's alone time... .not family time.

I've been round and round with her about this... .and the only way to make sure it happens... or that I get happy in the deal... is to make sure that I get my part of the deal first.  Or if I don't... .then I know the deal most likely won't be followed through on.

There will be no accountability for her actions or inactions... .(according to her)... .I use these instances to push harder in counseling... .to point out that her "confusion" on what was said is why I don't have conversations with her with the tv on... .phone on... .phone to here ear... .while she is cooking... .

If we are going to have a conversation... .and it is important... .we will focus on that... .or we will not have it.  I can't force her to do this... .so I just walk away... and let her know I will be back in a bit to see if she can have a "undistracted conversation" with me. 

She doesn't like it when I do that... .that is her issue... .not mine.

[Grey Kitty]

I see the breakdown in that you are depending on your wife for your emotional recharge.

If I enjoy and get recharged from family time... .my wife is in the family and has a huge degree of control over it... .there is not really a way around it.

I see two very different issues, and this is important, because one is YOURS and one is joint.

1. You value family time.

This is important to you. It does require cooperation of all family members (at least the ones who are present, given the size of your family). It may (or may not) require keeping outsiders away.

Keeping disruptive forces out is required to get what you want though... .those may be a poorly behaved child (from outside the family), or may be your wife being dysregulated.

Most important: this is a joint activity, and you definitely lack full power and full responsibility for it.

(Room for interesting negotiations around this!)

2. You need to recharge yourself.

This is your responsibility. Yes, you can get this from family time. Yes, you can get it from good interactions with your wife.

However you need to be able to assure this for yourself even if those sources aren't there for you this week.

And that is something for you to work on. On your own.

Don't let this need of yours make a mess of issue #1.

[formflier]

(Room for interesting negotiations around this!)

Yep... .and that means there is a need for some sort of reality.

Some sort of acknowledgement that I support her version of things... and there should be some reciprocal feeling and action on her part.  This is where the BPD traits get in the way... .because she really can believe... .that me supporting her choices for 5 days... .and then asking for something different... .means I NEVER support her choices.

Luckily... .given space and time she seems to have figured this out.


The tough thing that I am looking at... .is that as long a momentum seems to generally be going in the right direction... towards a healthier r/s and family... .I'm ok with being somewhat of a rug at times... .to bend more than she does.

But... .I also have the reality... .that if worst came to worst and the r/s broke down.  That I would get more "family time" and more "control"... .with a court protected 50/50 custody than I have now.   

I don't want that... .but it does embolden me to hold to my boundaries.

Like I said before... .I don't know what "not standing for it" would have looked like... .but if she had held fast to moving the kid in... .I would have talked to a lawyer about how to force a change. 

I'm glad it didn't come to that... .and I'm definitely not going to let wife know this.  If it ever comes to it... .I will just do it.

[Notwendy]

I'm having a difficult time envisioning why family time does not happen in your family. You're a religious family with several children. Family time is grafted into most religious traditions - meals, holidays, attending religious servives together. With 8 kids I would think that if anyone wanted to eat, they had better all be at the dinner table or miss out. If  two parents are married and committed to a religion, then it would seem to me that both would make it happen- not just for each other but because of a commitment to the faith. Observant Jewish parents have shabbat dinner not because one of them wants it and the other is doing it for that but because they are both invested in this religious observance. Religious Christian parents have family prayers together, go to church together and then have a meal afterwards because they are both committed to their religion and traditions.

Choosing a charity or ministry does not have to be one organized project, and people do good in the world according to their talents and circumstances. A musician might play an instrument for people in a retirement home. A chef might have a night at a restaurant where some of the proceeds go to charity. IMHO, eight kids is a full time ministry- this is what you were given, but it is good to help others and model this for your kids. I understand your wife wanting something of her own, but there are many ways to do it.

I think GK said it well. You are combining two things: 1)your personal need to be re-energized, 2) wanting family night. I am going to add a third variable in this mix- your wife desiring some kind of ministry and it affected you because it affected #1 and #2. So there are three different conditions all interdependent on each other.

GK was on to something when he suggested you separate them.

1) Take responsibility for your feelings and needing to be recharged. Making them dependent on something else- requiring something or someone else puts your needs at the decision of someone else. There are ways to recharge on your own. Take a walk, pray, do something you like.

2) Family time - needs an agreement between you and the other family members. Work this out for other reasons- your faith, your values, whatever are mutual values that you and your wife share. Family time has been shown to enhance child learning and behavior. Your wife may buy into this. It would be good if she had her own reasons to want this independent of you.

3) Brainstorm for a ministry that your wife is invested in, that she can do and be proud of. Surely there are areas of need in your community.

To take the focus of you, you might want to consider speaking to your minister about topics #2 and #3.  Religions have much to say on family time, and how to help others. Perhaps there is someone who your wife could speak to such as the minister's wife. Your wife might be more receptive to getting advice from other people in your church who she feels comfortable with than you- someone who she admires and who is knowlegeable and with whom she won't feel invalidated or embarrased.

[formflier]

I'm having a difficult time envisioning why family time does not happen in your family. You're a religious family with several children. Family time is grafted into most religious traditions - meals, holidays, attending religious servives together. With 8 kids I would think that if anyone wanted to eat, they had better all be at the dinner table or miss out. If  two parents are married and committed to a religion, then it would seem to me that both would make it happen- not just for each other but because of a commitment to the faith. Observant Jewish parents have shabbat dinner not because one of them wants it and the other is doing it for that but because they are both invested in this religious observance. Religious Christian parents have family prayers together, go to church together and then have a meal afterwards because they are both committed to their religion and traditions.

If my wife picked a schedule... .and stuck to it... .or involved me in decisions that affected the agreed upon schedule... .then... .this would be quite easy.  It used to be quite easy. 

But... .when I come home and discover a change in plans... ."i'm inflexible... .I don't care about her... ."she forgot".  This works for an episode or two... .and then you realize it's been two weeks and not everyone has sat around the table to share a prayer and a meal. 

At that point... .my wife usually points out that I should have been more clear... .it's not her issue... .I don't know how to ask... .or variations on this.

We've tried writing it down... .putting it on the calendar... .etc etc. 

More often than not... .it doesn't work.

1) Take responsibility for your feelings and needing to be recharged. Making them dependent on something else- requiring something or someone else puts your needs at the decision of someone else. There are ways to recharge on your own. Take a walk, pray, do something you like.

Agreed... .however... what my wife was proposing was taking one of my ways to be re-energized off the table... .permanently.

Most likely similar to GK's wife moving him out of his boat... .because he doesn't care about it.

I'm a family guy... .it is central to who I am... .I draw strength from it... .

2) Family time - needs an agreement between you and the other family members. Work this out for other reasons- your faith, your values, whatever are mutual values that you and your wife share. Family time has been shown to enhance child learning and behavior. Your wife may buy into this. It would be good if she had her own reasons to want this independent of you.

We've had agreements ad nauseum... .  making agreements with a pwBPD traits is tricky.

3) Brainstorm for a ministry that your wife is invested in, that she can do and be proud of. Surely there are areas of need in your community.

She has let me know I'm not involved in her ministry decisions... .if we ever get in front of a pastor to chat... this will be interesting... .because she also claims to be submitting to me in a Biblical sense.   

Hmmmm... .for those of you that aren't familiar with Conservative Christianity... .the husband is the spiritual leader of the wife... .for her to claim I am not involved in her ministry or ministry decisions... .is 100% opposite of what she claims to believe.  She will not respond to questions about "understanding" the difference.

To take the focus of you, you might want to consider speaking to your minister about topics #2 and #3.  Religions have much to say on family time, and how to help others. Perhaps there is someone who your wife could speak to such as the minister's wife. Your wife might be more receptive to getting advice from other people in your church who she feels comfortable with than you- someone who she admires and who is knowlegeable and with whom she won't feel invalidated or embarrased.

We have talked to many many ministers... .but it has been a while.  My guess is she doesn't want to have the talk again... .because she doesn't want to explain her position.

She knows I'm ready... .anytime to sit down and talk

[Notwendy]

Although I am not a Conservative Christian, I am familiar with it as I have friends who are ( and an interest in comparitive religions as you might guess). I think religion is a good thing in general but a religious person who has disordered thinking will also have distorted thinking when it come to religion. Also, we form our early childhood concepts of religion through from our parents, so if we grew up in a dysfunctional home, then those concepts might be distorted. Some of the work we do in ACOA is undoing some of those ideas and forming new ones.

The idea of the husband being the spiritual leader has been disputed by some who see it as an inequality between men and women, however, when a woman agrees to that role, she sees it as a commitment to her faith. The husband also has to not abuse that role and be committed to his faith. It isn't inequality but a commitment to different roles. So your wife may be making this an issue about you, but it isn't about you. It is a spiritual issue.

Likewise, the desire for family time in accordance with your religion stems from the parents' commitment to their religion. Family time happens because both parents are committed to a higher power. Sure there are other reasons but that is the main one.

I don't know how to change the way someone with BPD thinks. If I could, I'd have changed my mom first. Your task is to figure out how to live according to your values with a person who may not be thinking about things like you are. This is tough, but if your value is family time, then you might need to make it happen in a way that invites and includes your wife but doesn't depend on her as much.

[Grey Kitty]

This works for an episode or two... .and then you realize it's been two weeks and not everyone has sat around the table to share a prayer and a meal. 

More often than not... .it doesn't work.

I'm not saying you are wrong... .but what you are doing isn't working, and isn't going to either. Here's how I see it.

You want the whole family together for a shared meal, prayer, and family time. You don't do the work of making it happen. You don't make sure all 8 kids are there at the same time. You don't cook the meal. You come home from work, and want it to happen... .with the (mostly unspoken) expectation that your wife will make it all happen for you, in the way that you want it.

... .your desire is not wrong. Expecting your wife to manage the household isn't wrong. Expecting her to manage it the way you want it managed isn't working well.


If you accept that this sort of shared meal that you want, with 100% attendance is likely to happen once or twice a month, you will be a lot happier.

[formflier]

 

Good point Grey,

Yes... .I'm not getting what I want.  However... .I'm also not allowing my wife to live in her fantasy world that she is being a model Christian wife... .etc etc etc.

I'm making sure the light shines on areas of dysfunction... .that makes her uncomfortable.  Most of the periods of change that have happened in our r/s have come from times when she was uncomfortable and changed ways.

I don't get to determine when she changes... .but I do get to control my side of the dynamic.  Then... .I get to be patient (very hard).

As I have looked at past behavior... .even before I knew about BPD... appeasing her or not making a big deal about things seemed to only feed the monster.  However... .making a big deal... .or too big a deal... .about things didn't really help either.

The nuance... .at least for me... .is finding the middle ground where I shine the light... .and keep suggesting healthy behavior... .without coming off as a persecutor.

Still working on this one... .but that is the general theory.

My other general theory of making things better in the r/s... .is that I have to take the opportunities that come along... .(such as the naked picture I got sent... . ) to highlight issues rather than trying to determine my own agenda for a given week or month.

I wish I could determine my own agenda... .but it just doesn't seem to be working... .

Keep the advice coming... .

[formflier]

 

Grey,

Also... .I've made some efforts at "doing or controlling" family night... .where I do the work and she just has to show up.

Success rate there is not much different than with her in charge of preparations.

Interesting you brought this up.  Because this got me thinking... .the nights (it's been while)... .where the kids cook and mom and dad clean up... .those work well to get everyone together.

Hmmmmm... .


I think I'm going to have to try and figure a way to get those going again... .

[KateCat]

the nights (it's been while)... .where the kids cook and mom and dad clean up... .those work well to get everyone together.

 

One way of thinking about serious mental illness might be that it "takes a village" to work with. And you've got this great thing going for you in that you have your own village, in the form of eight children of varying ages.

In my experience, strategies like "TLC" ("tiny little changes", "shining the light," "making her uncomfortable," "walking her back" to normality are not really practical in the face of a mental health issue that is serious, chronic and pervasive.

I think the kids are your way forward. These kinds of family nights would fit well with your family's core values and strengthen the character and self-confidence of the kids, wouldn't they?

[Turkish]

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