Talking someone down when they think they are being logical

[OffRoad]

My husband is not diagnosed with BPD, but I strongly suspect it. In the past, he manages well until he gets stressed and then he picks fights over nothing, blames the fight on whomever he picked it with, tries to control everyone else when he feels out of control, can’t control his anger when he doesn’t understand something (and won’t ask anyone to help him out) so he claims everyone else is at fault, alternately desperately needs my attention and ignores me, and is so self centered he can't see anyone else. I know he thinks he "must look perfect", can't let his flaws show, has no idea who he actually is and uses other people's opinions as his own. When he isn’t stressed, he is not usually this way. Then he turned 40 and things started going downhill. He is now 45 and it’s getting pretty bad. Suddenly, I am the anti-Christ. Everything is my fault. I’m supposed to ALWAYS be happy (Even though he ignores me for weeks on end? How does that even make any sense at all?). If I disagree with anything he says, I am starting an argument (I'm OK with not agreeing on everything).

Cases in point: A few weeks back, we were chatting in the bedroom with the door open. There was a surprise visit of an old friend scheduled for our son. My husband asked me a question regarding it, and I looked over my shoulder to make sure my son was not in earshot. My husbands yells “Don’t roll your eyes when I’m talking to you!” I just looked at him and said “I was checking to my sure DS wasn’t close enough to hear. Why did you assume I was rolling my eyes at you?”  No response to that. Then he just picked up as if he hadn’t behaved poorly.  A few days later, I was talking with our daughter who is off at college. She was excited about her first Valentines day with a real boyfriend. I joked with her about not getting her hopes up, sometimes Valentines day doesn’t always go as planned and I relayed some stories about past Valentine’s days I had (Prior to my husband). The following day, she and I are talking on Skype, and my husband is walking in and out of the room. I made a few comments to her about what we had talked about the day before, and then we were joking about how she could wrap guys around her little finger. It’s a running joke between us, because it is a talent I never developed, and I commented that I’m sure she’ll do better than I did. My husband stood behind me and yelled that I should stop disrespecting him, that I had been trolling “all day” to say bad things about him. Fight ensued after phone call, with me trying to tell him we weren’t talking about him at all, but he just would not hear it. But he knows our daughter heard his outburst. It has now been three weeks that he has been “punishing” me by sleeping in the spare room. It is also driving him nuts that it doesn’t bother me too much. (Who wants to sleep with someone who is acting like that?). Because we still have a son at home, DH comes in with a big smile on his face being “happy” for everyone, and I respond in kind. Honestly, if he’d just REALLY behave that way, I WOULD be happy.

So I finally asked him if we are just a business arrangement now (I get room and board in exchange for all the laundry, dishes, household duties, sprinkler repair, plumbing, child pickup (half hour to school and back), tutoring (DS has dyslexia), house painting, etc that I do). He "hasn’t had time to process everything I said in the last argument"…...

I have just gone on with my life as normal (with a weird roommate in the next room). Eventually, he will want to “discuss” this.  Assuming he doesn’t say anything that is a deal breaker and makes me just decide it isn’t worth staying, how do I deal with this? Am I just plain screwed? Has he decided he wants out and hasn’t got the guts to say so? (There is no other woman, of that I am sure). I am at a complete loss as to any way to get things back on track if he is just emotionally out of control. (He is completely stressed right now-might get laid off from his job, had to take two pay cuts, refuses to look for another job, we have one in college and were barely making it before the pay cuts so unless something changes soon, she will have to take out full loans in year three and four, etc. I spend next to nothing and can stretch a dollar like no ones business-he cannot fault me there at all. I am also looking for a job, but at my age, there's not a lot out there.). Does anyone have any suggestions on the best way to get through the “talk” to come? I know he's going to think he is being so logical (he isn't when he is this way) and it's all going to be my fault... .

TIA.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

 

welcome Offroad

A lot of of this behavior certainly sounds like BPD. There are many here who live, or have lived, like this.

Please take time to work throught the LESSONS in the right hand menu, it will help you understand a lot of what you are dealing with. From first impressions it seems like PROJECTION is a major factor in his behavior. Click on this link and see if you see if this sheds any light on what you are experiencing.

"The Talk" is always difficult, as it always important in the now, then not long after it is as though it never happened. To make any real progress you need to change the way you interact, negotiating or explaining rarely achieves much. The important thing to undersytand when discussing issues with a pwBPD (or anyone really) is not to go into JADE  mode (Justify, Defend, Argue, Explain) it simply pushes you into a defensive position

We are here to help you. have a read of these links and see if it prompts any specific quesitions for you

Waverider

[Notwendy]

Your H sounds similar to mine. I think my H has traits. My mother was fully symptomatic with BPD. It can run on a spectrum. However, the "label" is helpful when it comes to learning the "tools" to deal with behaviors and also understanding them.

I have a thread "my husband my room mate". My H painted me black when the kids were little. It was very hurtful and confusing at the time. Since the anger, rages, and ST have interrupted intimacy, I have also felt as if I was his live in employee. However, like you, we have kids and I felt that it was best for them that they have a consistent and caring parent so I would much rather that he "hire" me. I also decided that it was the best "job" I could have- being with my kids and applied myself to it.

I don't think he is fully aware that I saw it like that, but in a way, it did help me to get through it as pleasantly as possible. We've had some issues in the past with him being the main wage earner, but I think I have contributed in the home to an equal degree.

I think it is great that you are able to talk to your kids about dating and relationships. My kids are getting older too and we talk about boundaries, trusting your feelings, and red flags. I try to stay mindful of their privacy and not be enmeshed, but to also keep the doors of communication open.

The best thing I did to "manage" my H's behavior was to stop managing it, really. Although he finally agreed to marriage therapy where I thought we'd deal with him, I was dismayed at first when the T put the focus on me. I felt it was unfair that after being the one who had to help with my mom, and now run the house sanely, I was the problem?  Well maybe not entirely, but the only person I could control or make change in was me. As much as we want them to change and as hard as we try to get through to them, we are most effective at putting that effort into ourselves.

I have done personal T in the past as well as co-dependency 12 step groups and ACOA ( which also applies to disfunctional families). I think the groups and a sponsor were very helpful. When my H had been angry or doing the ST, I had a sponsor who I could call.

Look at the resources on JADE. My H thinks he is so logical but when he's doing this, he really believes he is. When they get triggered, they believe their feelings are facts. Talking to them can make things worse. Sometimes words don't mean much but actions do. When my H would withdraw, I'd try to pursue him and explain, trying to change his mind. Now, I just go on my way. If he wants to stew, that's his business. Although my goal was to learn to deal with this, taking my focus off of him has reduced or shortened this behavior as I don't reinforce it. Yes, my H gets triggered by things he thinks he heard but I didn't say. There isn't much chance of changing that sometimes. When they get to be right, it is validating too. I either just let it go, or if it is important, try to discuss it in therapy or when things are calmer.

[formflier]

Offroad,

I'm glad you have found us... .we can help.  I can see some of the interactions I used to have in the story that you have told.

The tools I learned here have helped a great deal.

I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts on what you read in the lessons.  We can guide you on how to apply that in your life!

[OffRoad]

Thank you all for your kind replies. I had already read the lessons (which are great), and had found that I naturally did most of what was on there, which is probably why we went for 15 years with most incidents just rolling past. He has never just blown up like this when there was absolutely nothing to blow up about. There was always some grain of truth that I could find to empathize with or "validate", as it is put here. But he has started accusing me of things that I can't even fathom. If I say "I would be hurt too, if I thought someone was disrespecting me.", he will see that as me invalidating him, because I didn't agree that I was wrong. If he believes I actually did this, when I haven't, he will always think that I think those things of him (we had one slightly different round of this many years ago that lasted two months, until someone ELSE told him he was behaving abominably after listening to him at a party one night-he actually slipped in public because it had been going on so long). What kind of sentence can I use that tells him I understand he was upset about what he thought he heard, but he doesn't have to worry because I don't think that. Or is there another way to work this that I am just not getting? Am I missing what he is really upset about and I need to figure that out? Do I just let him sleep in the other room indefinitely? (Sadly, that doesn't sound like such a bad idea at this juncture... .)

He has also never pulled back like this before, which is what has me wondering how to manage this talk three weeks later. He has now had three weeks of stewing about whatever it is that he is upset about, although in the meantime, we have had some nice game nights, real conversation, and pleasant interactions because he is "on" for our son. This "on" personality takes a lot out of him, though. Last time he had to be "on" for a weekend with friends, it took him a week to come down-come home, conversation at dinner, video games for four hours. I'm not high maintenance, and need my own space, so I recognized it and let it roll, and kissed him before toddling off to bed.

So that is where I am at. Can I do anything (during this "talk" he is gearing up for-he's made that clear several times) to get out of being painted black. I know not to JADE, but I'm just not sure how to validate this one.  Or do I just have to acknowledge that I'm going to have a weird roommate for a while, if not indefinitely and motor on with my life?

[Notwendy]

I'm going to take a guess at this one. Your kids are getting older, and it is harder to hide from older kids. There is also the idealization that a parent gets from younger kids when they think Daddy is their hero. Then they turn into teens. Most if us moms know that stage where everything we do is wrong in a teen girl's eyes. Dad may be feeling the loss of being idolized and blaming it on you.

I think your H has some awareness of how he behaves and I think he is realizing that his little girl will soon be with a guy. The truth is, I think if some guy treated his girl the way he treats you, he'd be livid. I know that my H feels that way and that brings to light his own shame for how he has treated me.

The way your daughter's boyfriend is treating her may be showing him up and calling his crap into light. I think the conversation triggered him. I've found myself having to be careful when talking about healthy and unhealthy relationships to my kids.

This is his issue, not yours, and I think it's going to be a wait until he deals with it.

[formflier]

 

Can you tell me more about your concept of validation?

Also... if you can write out what you think about invalidation... .


I'm curious about the kernel of truth that you talked about... .

I'm glad you found us... .from reading your story... I really think we can help you get ready for this talk... .

[OffRoad]

Notwendy, that's worth thinking about. Valentine's day is not a big event in our house because he forgets it most years. It's not worth worrying about to me, but I can see that if DD's new boyfriend makes a special effort for her, it could make him feel bad that he's not done anything like that for me. Since Valentine's day is not on my radarscope, that never occurred to me.

formflier

My concept of validation: Normally, it is listening to his words, rephrasing them back to him, making sure I got it right (sometimes it stops right there when he says "No, I meant XXXX when I said YYYY.", asking what happened that made him think that, saying something to the effect that "Yeah, I can see why that would be a problem." or "That would have been tough for anyone." This often works when he is upset with someone else, even if he had some fault in it.

My concept of invalidation: sighing, rolling eyes, saying to get to the point, ignoring, continually defending a position (I will, however state my position once, clearly and as factually as I can), walking away without saying a break is needed, saying not to worry about something, re-doing what has already been done (unfortunately, sometimes this is necessary for safety reasons), lecturing on how to do something, I could go on and on. However, my version of what is invalidation and his version are different (he calls it "discrediting him". That happens almost anytime I don't agree with him on something). I haven't yet figured out all the things he finds invalidating.

When I speak of the kernel of truth, I remember (what I think is) his projecting his feelings onto me, such as "You're never happy". I am sometimes not happy (I don’t know anyone who is always happy). I usually say something like "Hmm. That's an interesting observation. I'll reflect on that." and either ask him how life is going (works if he needs to talk), invite him to play a game (works if he is missing time with me where he is not responsible for anything), or wander off into the next room to reflect(if he's just looking to pick a fight, I try not to participate).

Again, thank you all for your support and ideas.

[waverider]

Often you simply can't stop the drama happening, regardless of all the validation and use of SET in the world. It's going to happen, but would most likely have been much worse without it.

All you can do then is step aside once the avalanche starts, more words are just like adding  rocks to it.

Not invalidating is probably more important than validating. Hence be economic with your words one invalidation can overturn a ton of validation.

Thriving in a BPD relationship is more about not letting it harm either of you rather than "fixing" it. A term i heard once "massage the dysfunctionality so that its not as debilitating". I guess this is the same with all disabilities mental or physical.

[Notwendy]

Your H could also be reacting to his baby girl dating and projecting it on to you. My kids are getting older and becoming more interested in dating. I found that I had a fleeting feeling of being replaced when meeting my son's first crush. It was the onset of knowing that although he will always care for his mom, one day someone else will be his first priority. However, I don't see this as a personal rejection, criticism, evidence that I am flawed. I see it as the natural course of things, the way it goes. I want to raise kids who are independent and who will leave the nest, even if I also feel sadness at that, because it isn't about me- it's about them.

My H didn't have the same feeling over the girl, but when someone showed interest in his baby girl, I could tell he was struggling. I think he handled it well. However, for someone who sees criticism and rejection in so much, even if it isn't intended, I could see where this could be tough.

Your H could be struggling with his own feelings of abandonment as the kids are showing signs of leaving the nest. My H will say things like " They won't come to visit me anymore".  I think my H feels bad about not calling or seeing his parents as much as he thinks he should. This is something that I can inadvertently trigger if I even ask about them. If I say " how's your mom?" He hears " you terrible son you don't call enough". He may at times project these feelings on to me or the kids.

I know that as my kids get busier and move on with their lives, I won't see them as much, and this makes me sad, but this is the way things go. I also do not fear they will abandon me since I think I have a good relationship with them and feel they will include me in their lives to some extent when they are adults.

If your H is feeling some tough feelings, he could be projecting them on to you. My H has said " you are keeping the kids from me" and also " the kids don't like me". None of this is true. They love their father. They were just being typical teens.

[formflier]

 

Offroad,

Thanks for the replies... .it gives me a clearer view of where you are going with validation and invalidation.

I'm a words guy... .I like to get really precise with them.  I also like to use the concept of good, better, and best... .as opposed to right and wrong when discussing things.

I think you are somewhere between good and better with your terms... .I think you are describing more how you go about it than what it is or what it is for.

I would challenge you to go back to the lessons and read again... .  Except this time think about his feelings... .vice agreeing or disagreeing. 

Think less about right or wrong... .truth or lie... .  Remember... .a feeling is never wrong.  It is

Now... .here is the trick... .when validating... .you want to be careful to validate a feeling (a good or bad one) without agreeing with something that is untrue.  You also don't want to validate the invalid (sort of saying agreeing with untruth)

I'll hush for now... .please post some comments about how the lessons appear to you while reading them with the lens of feelings... .and that feelings are NEVER WRONG.

[OffRoad]

Waverider, Thank you for reminding me of that. I do think that sometimes they just HAVE to expend the energy in some way or another. I know DH and I do better with our misunderstandings when we hike while talking.

Notwendy, you may really have something here. He has been spending more time with his parents than usual. My own mother has been through several surgeries lately, and I've had to spend quite a bit of time over there taking care of her afterwards (shared with my sister). When I think of it, there is a load of really stressful things going on in general, on both his side, my side and both of us together. And FWIW, DD is away first year at college, about 3000 miles away.

formflier, I don't appear to be understanding what you are saying. Not knowing how to validate (or what other thing to do) what I think this particular feeling is... .that he's mortified that I would tell his little girl that she needs to do better than I did regarding a spouse, that he's ashamed that I don't think someone like him would be good enough for her, that he feels like I don't really love him because he isn't the kind of person I want our daughter to have, that, if he's projecting, he doesn't feel like he is the kind of person who would be good enough for his own daughter... .without either agreeing that I said or even thought such a thing or explaining that I didn't say or think that (since I already said it once), that is exactly where I am stuck. Especially since I can only guess at what his true feelings are. Say he is ashamed because he actually thinks someone like him is not good enough for his daughter. That thought is so foreign to me, that I can't think of any way to validate how he must feel and have no idea what else I can do. He's certainly not going to admit he feels that way, so making any kind of reference to it would be worse than saying nothing at all.

[formflier]

  He's certainly not going to admit he feels that way, so making any kind of reference to it would be worse than saying nothing at all.

Instead of ashamed because xyz... .  just validate being ashamed.

Usually more effective to SET it... .or SE SE SET.

the XYZ is not the feeling... .ashamed is the feeling. 

If you don't know for sure... just ask about the emotions... .don't suggest. 

If they don't fess up to a particular emotion... you may have to stick with "troubled"

What you don't want to do is tell, suggest or otherwise try to convince them they shouldn't be ashamed... .or feel what they are feeling.

That is invalidating... .

You may not be able to figure out what to validate... .in cases like that... .it's more important to avoid invalidating.

Is this explanation making sense? 

[OffRoad]

Gotcha. I was stuck in the details. That helps.

[formflier]

Gotcha. I was stuck in the details. That helps.

Very insightful... .and correct.

Emotions matter... .details usually don't.

Don't stare at the trees... .look at the forest.

That kind of thing... . 

[OffRoad]

For those of you who have given me advice, the conversation happened. It was fascinating. It would appear for the past 2 ½ years (and the timeline changed several times during the conversation) I have never been happy, he has been distant because he was expecting me to yell at him (?), he was upset because I don’t allow him to drink beer (He has always had beer on assorted nights. I, however, don’t drink, and I leave his presence when he behaves poorly the day after he’s been drinking. Somehow that translated to “I don’t allow him to drink beer”), I spend too much time venting (this coming from the guy who vented about his bad day for a half hour with our son while sitting in the Jacuzzi at the community pool, then came home and vented to me for a half hour about the same thing), our son and I complain too much about movies we didn’t like on the way home (I guess we don’t get to have an opinion on movies?), he doesn’t get to have an opinion on anything (again with the ?) and a host of other things that he just hasn’t ever mentioned because he was determined that he was the one making everything work around the house. It was about 80% projection. I nodded my head a lot and said mmm-hmmm.

When the dust settled, he said that since I wanted to be roommates, we could do that and both be there for our son. I said I didn’t want to be roommates. I couldn’t just live in a house with someone I still loved and pretend like I didn’t care. If he could just hang in there, I’d try to find a job, then he could go and do whatever he needed to do. He didn’t like that answer. He said we’d been getting along fine while we were in separate rooms. I said that’s because we were acting nice to each other. When he comes home happy, I’m happy. If he comes home crabby, he isn’t going to get a happy wife when he jumps down her throat (He seems to think he lives in a void and his actions don’t affect anyone else in the house). I asked him if there was anything we could do to make our little act, not an act. What things could we do for each other that would improve our issues. I wasn’t asking him to move back in the bedroom, but I wasn’t playacting for our son; he isn’t stupid. I came up with a couple of things that I know are my issues, and to my surprise, he started admitting to things he was incapable of doing (like keeping track of time) and a couple of things he could work on. Regarding the beer, I told him straight up I don’t care if he drinks, but I'll be leaving the vicinity if he is behaving like a jerk the day after, that he needs to own his own behavior.

Then came something I wasn’t expecting. We used to go out to dinner every Friday night. A few years back, he started coming home and saying he had a big lunch and wasn’t hungry. So I said OK, no big deal, we’ll pass on dinner. This kept happening and I finally just never planned on Friday dinner. I thought I was being nice. It turns out, his feelings were hurt because, even though he wasn’t hungry, he expected me to ask him to go out and get me something. (Whoda thunk?) I could tell he was really hurt. Was this the start of all of this?

At the end, it was pretty bizarre for me. He got very introspective and said that the conversation didn’t go the way he was thinking at all. I asked him what he was expecting. He was expecting me to yell at him and be mad. He thought that since (in his mind) I thought he was such a terrible person, that I would tell him what a terrible person he was and how it was all his fault. Instead, I had told him I loved him, that I couldn’t pretend we were just roommates because I cared too much, that I didn’t realize that my not asking him for dinner on Friday nights hurt his feelings and i was sorry, asked what we could both do that would help the situation, and showed that no matter how upset I was, my boundary on the beer behavior is non-negotiable.  And I did it without raising my voice (except a little). I don’t think I’ve ever seen him look so confused.

I think we came out of that one on the better than bad side because I took everyone’s advice and just said as little as possible during what I thought of as the “dumping” phase. This is like nothing I have ever experienced before. He never even mentioned what originally started the whole thing.

[waverider]

Well done. A good example of less is more and how beneficial, and easier, it is when you just focus on not invalidating and dont get caught in issues which are often just misleading symptoms.

Once you can convince them by your actions that you are not going to dump on them it opens up a whole new lot of doors.

Keep practicing this approach.

[formflier]

I said that’s because we were acting nice to each other. When he comes home happy, I’m happy. If he comes home crabby, he isn’t going to get a happy wife when he jumps down her throat (He seems to think he lives in a void and his actions don’t affect anyone else in the house). 

Offroad,

Wonderful job... .thank you so much for posting this story.

Can you expand a bit on the quote that I highlighted above?  It would seem that you are telling him that his actions determine your happiness... .or unhappiness. 

I'll let you expand on that a bit before I chat more about it... .

[Notwendy]

Off road,

I think you did really well during this conversation. While I don't think we need to tolerate being raged at or called nasty names ( we can walk out ), if we can listen to what they say without reacting, we can understand how they are feeling.

Keep in mind that people with PD's project. Most people do to some extent, but when pwPD's feel badly about something, they will attribute this to another person. What your H said about you says a lot about him. Turn the conversation around- changing the pronouns to be about him.

I (hubby) feel bad that I behave poorly the day after I've been drinking. I should not drink beer.

I spend too much time venting

I feel guilty about breaking our Friday night dates.

You are punishing me by staying in another bedroom ( I'm punishing myself).

I don't want my daughter to end up with someone like me.

Now for the honest truth. Do you want your kids to end up in a dysfunctional relationship? I don't. I realize that we can't really choose who they are going to marry, (unless we are part of a religion/culture where parents arrange this and we are not) but we can talk to our kids about healthy relationships.

I grew up with a mom with BPD ( and not knowing it at the time). When I was dating, I knew to look for certain red flags. I didn't want to end up with someone like my mother. However, what I was not aware of was that the only relationship model I had was my co-dependent father/BPD mother and I was co-dependent too. It was the only way I knew, as I thought mom was the one who was disordered and dad was not. I also had poor boundaries. I was not allowed to say no to my mom. I was expected to keep her happy, and also we were told that mother was normal- and to keep it a secret.

So, when first faced with issues in my marriage, I assumed my H was "normal" and that the problem in the marriage was me, after all, that is what he told me whenever there was a conflict. Everything was my fault, I just can't be happy, if I just did things his way everything would be fine, I should be happy that I married a great guy. My H painted me black in the early years of our marriage and was verbally abusive. I believed it was all my fault. Why? Because I was the one that had the crazy family I thought, compared to his, and also because growing up, my parents blamed me for my mother's problems.

Fast forward- lots of therapy, co-dependency and ACOA 12 steps groups and I see a larger picture. Also I know how this kind of thing affects future generations. I know that I partially broke the cycle as my family is thankfully less affected by PD than my parents were. However, we still are and I don't want that for my kids. I can't control their future choices but there are things I have done:

I validate them, respect their boundaries, discuss healthy relationships, and most of all- tell them to trust their feelings in dating- if they feel confused- listen to that. If their dates blame everything on them, listen to that. If their dates seem too good to be true- pay attention. Go slow (physically and emotionally): dating where people get involved quickly doesn't give you time to get to know them before you are invested. Schedule time to be with your friends and have your own interests- you do not have to give up who you are to be in a relationship.

Once they are dating, you really can't say too much negative about the date- that usually will drive them towards the date. However, I try to be a listener and hope they will talk to me if they are feeling badly. Then, I try to validate their feelings so they know they can trust them.This can go for friendships too. Sometimes they have had friends with whom they have not felt comfortable.

I can't really talk about my H- I don't want to triangulate the kids' r/s with him. He is great with them, and only rages with me. I am grateful that they were not raged at.  He is a good father and does a lot of good for our family- and he loves the kids. However, they did pick up on the stress in the home. This really hurts to know this. I have found notes in their schoolwork where they wrote things like "stop fighting mom and dad" and one where they blamed me for it ( ouch) . I hope that one day they will come to see that I did the best I could in a tough situation, basically appeased him for years to keep him from raging, yet even that is not healthy for kids. So in hopes of doing better for them, I am honest about me- I tell them yes, we have issues and we are in marital counseling. They know that I go to 12 step groups and about my mother. I tell them that it is OK to seek out help and that they can too if they feel they are having difficulty.

Has my H heard me say things like this? Yes. Does he feel bad about the way he treated me and hope his daughter doesn't end up with someone who treats her the way he treated me? I hope he feel bad- bad enough to do something about his own behavior because the way he treats me is going to teach his kids how a man treats his wife. I also need to work on my side of that as well. They say we teach others how to treat us, and working in co-dependency groups has helped me with that.

Part of being co-dependent is trying to fix our H's feelings because when they feel bad, they rage, ( in your H's case drinks) sulks, project, act like children and blame us. That is how they manage their own bad feelings- by disrupting the family or their marriage. We don't like this, so we do what we can to make them feel good. What I learned is that unless they can feel and own their own bad feelings, they are not likely to learn from them, maybe they can't learn ever but they are not going to if we fix them.

Your H feels bad about how he behaves? He says you said that he isn't good enough for your daughter? Well that's how he feels. IMHO, letting your H deal with his own bad feelings ( while you stay a calm and steady presence, not reacting to them and using the tools to not make it worse) might be a good thing. You can reinforce any good that comes out of it (I am glad you want to go out on Fridays, I am glad that you are thinking about your daughter and your relationship to her is important, thank him for the good things he has done in the family)

[OffRoad]

Thank you all for helping me through this. I don't know how this would have turned out without this place and the lessons.

formflier, regarding that quote, if I'm already happy, and he walks in happy, all is good. If I'm already happy, and he's unhappy and wants to vent, all is still OK. If I'm already happy, and he walks in and yells at me, I'm going to stop being happy. That was actually part of the conversation, btw. That we don't live in a void and that everyone's actions affect everyone else. It's life.

Notwendy, Thank you so much for your thoughtful response. Regarding our kids, this was a real eye opener. I don't worry about our daughter. She has seen her father when he has gone off the rails, and knows she doesn't want a relationship like that. Her turning point was a few years back when her father admonished her brother about playing video games for long periods of times, when her father will play video games for hours at a time.  She looked at him and said "You're a hypocrite. You leave us alone most evenings while you play video games." He was livid, but had no counter argument for her statement. She has asked me why I am still with him, and I reminded her of when she was younger and he wasn't like this (not to this degree). While he is a good father, he has mini-raged at the children a couple of times a year, and I bared the brunt of it because I always stepped in with "That is an inappropriate reaction to a minor transgression." and removed the children from the situation when possible. When the inevitable fight ensued later, it rarely lasted longer than my having to say "The children have not done anything to deserve being mocked, bullied, yelled at, whatever" twice, because that is all I would say. (I knew nothing about BPD).

It's early in her new relationship, but they seem to have an agreement where they are courteously honest when one does something the other doesn't like or understand. Neither takes those occasions as a personal affront. I am hopeful for her relationships, but worry about any children she will have. We have a great relationship, but I don't know how to broach this topic.

Especially since I am fairly sure our 16 year old son also has BPD (or something very similar). He is my concern and I need to find a way to get him some help. He's a mellow, easygoing kind of guy. At the beginning of the year, there was an assignment "Who are you?". He couldn't do the assignment. I asked him what is it that makes you, you. He said he didn't know, that he just behaved the way he thought he was supposed to, like everyone else did. It took me days to help him figure out who he is, and I don't think he was convinced of it. He gets emotionally overloaded several times a year. In fact, he had an emotional meltdown just the other day, because so many things have gone wrong lately and he can't sort out how to deal with it all. I'm sure what is going on in the house has affected him, as well. Since finding out about BPD, his behavior regarding things in his past now make more sense. I was thinking he was slow to emotional maturity, but now I am thinking again. Maybe this whole thing happened now so I could get help for our son. If so, I'll take any good I can get out of it.

[Notwendy]

 "am hopeful for her relationships, but worry about any children she will have"

This is my personal opinion but I would not want to make her fear having children as so far, there is not a known genetic cause for BPD. It does seem to run in families but I think it is hard to say what is a predisposition and what is because of the dynamics of families. Personally, I think the family situation plays a large role.

There is also the possibility of better intervention in the future. My mother has BPD- full blown, classic textbook. However, she was born in an era where BPD was virtually unknown and there was no treatment. Now, more is known about it. In her era there was shame in talking about any mental illness. Now there is not. I think over the years more is known about ways to help with this issue. I don't know if my mother "inherited" it genetically. Her family is very invalidating and self absorbed and there may have been some abuse involved.

As to help, ACOA ( adult children of alcoholics) has been a huge help and eye opener for me since it applies to dysfunction as well as addictions. The two seem to run together. My mother drinks as does your H. What I learned in these groups is that the dysfunction can be passed on to future generations, even if nobody drinks alcohol. I don't have an issue with alcohol and so I thought I would be free of any effects of my mother so long as I didn't drink or marry an alcoholic, but I was emotionally effected regardless.

However, I don't have BPD. One thing I have told my kids is that I get help and if that there is no shame in getting help. I don't want my kids to fear having their own children if they so choose. I have no way of knowing this for certain, but I would be willing to bet that your son's issues are because of the home environment more than genetics- or at least as much because of his home. Kids pick up the stresses regardless. I thought that by appeasing my H and keeping the rages down, it would not affect my kids. I was horrified to find the notes they had written hidden in their school papers. Once I was talking to my D about relationships and she said " I don't think you and dad love each other". The kids know.

I think it would be helpful to get your son in therapy if you can because the better he is able to handle his emotions, the better his relationships will be. I don't think 12 step groups are a replacement for therapy, but in addition Alateen could be helpful.

[formflier]

formflier, regarding that quote, if I'm already happy, and he walks in happy, all is good. If I'm already happy, and he's unhappy and wants to vent, all is still OK. If I'm already happy, and he walks in and yells at me, I'm going to stop being happy. That was actually part of the conversation, btw. That we don't live in a void and that everyone's actions affect everyone else. It's life.

Offroad,

Thanks for the explanation... .

Why give someone else the power over your happiness or unhappiness? 

True we don't live in a void... .but one of the things we work on at BPD family is to help people "take control back" of their lives... .many feel helpless and powerless... .



Offroad,

Thanks for keeping up posting... you seem to be getting engaged... .keep it up.  You are on the road to a better you... .and a better r/s! (relationship... .if you haven't started picking up on the lingo yet...

[OffRoad]

formflier, I hear what you are saying, but we don't live in individual voids. What goes on around us affects how we feel. It's why most people are mindful of what they say depending on the situation. IMO, anyone who could sit there and be yelled at and still be happy has their own issues, but that's my take on it. Whether I choose stay in his presence after I have been yelled at or to wallow in my unhappiness is up to me, though. But my initial reaction is going to be shock, which is not a happy feeling. At this point, I have to figure out if I have to get to the initial reaction of "Here we go again, what is it I need to do?" and it doesn't affect me, is that how I want to live the rest of my life? Is deadening my own emotions what is best? Do I want to show that is acceptable to my son? Lots to learn and think about. It would have been easier if I had known about BPD 20 years ago.

Notwendy,I wanted to pass this on. I just spoke to my daughter today, who from nearly 3000 miles away asked me if  her father and I were talking yet. I hadn't told her anything about that. It seems her brother Skyped her the other day, saying something was wrong in our home. As I said before, he isn't stupid. I just said her dad was sleeping in the other room (sometimes we did so when one or the other of us was snoring). She said "Just let me know before the divorce so I can make sure I'm available for my brother." Yeah, the kids aren't going to notice something is wrong... .

[Notwendy]

Yes, the kids know, but they are also young and confused by what they see. The pattern in my house is for my H to appear "perfect" and so, I was shocked to see a note that one of them wrote blaming me for the fighting in the house. There are times my H will say irritating things to me, and then if I snap back the kids would say " don't fight" as if I was starting it.

I don't want to triangulate. This is my mother's game. It doesn't even have to be about my father. She would take one family member to her side, and say things about the other, then proudly announce that this person "is on MY side". So, if she was mad at my dad, she'd take us aside and convince us that he was the problem. If she was mad at one of us, she'd get with my father and convince him to be angry at us too. Since my father didn't do this, we often didn't hear his side. However, we thought he was the healthy one. I only realized later how co-dependent he was and also how much in denial he was. He wouldn't let us say that anything was wrong with mom.

I don't say negative things about my H. I try to be responsible for my side of the issues and not to pretend I am a perfect person. I validate their feelings and they know I love them. I don't tell them personal details as that is not their responsibility. My mother discussed TMI with me about her relationship with dad. I was parentified and had to take care of her. I wanted to make sure my kids got to be kids.

I think I have a good relationship with them, and I think they have figured out more than they let on. I have used and suggested counseling for them over the years so that they can discuss their feelings in a safe place. The conversation with your daughter indicates that your kids are concerned. Counseling might be helpful for both of them.

When I got to college, I went to student health counseling to discuss my mom. I didn't know about BPD at the time, but I knew something was going on with her. I was not allowed to talk about my family issues, but I wanted to. Your daughter may want to talk to someone too at some point.

[formflier]

  I was shocked to see a note that one of them wrote blaming me for the fighting in the house. There are times my H will say irritating things to me, and then if I snap back the kids would say " don't fight" as if I was starting it.

Notwendy,

Curious how you came up with this interpretation of "don't fight"... .did they say that they thought you were starting it?

What did the note say?

There have been some similar dynamics... .assumptions... .blaming... .in our family... .especially over the last year... .which is the source of my curiosity.

FF

[OffRoad]

Notwendy,  . I know exactly what you are going through, but I was fortunate enough that it only happened (or I only noticed it) when H was stressed out, so not on a very regular basis, maybe four-five times a year on a bad year. It's most likely why I never recognized it as being a PD. It did get slightly worse as the kids got older and started calling him on what he was doing. Daughter became adept at working her dad the year before she left for college. FWIW, when younger, my kids would also say "don't fight." But as I was sitting there listening to DD the other day and trying to stay non-committal on what was going on in the house, DD said, "You know, Mom, we always knew it was Dad that started the fights. He did the same to us. Neither of us are going to think any less of you if you leave." It was all I could do not to cry. I started wondering how many times he had picked fights with the kids when I had left them alone with him. And being the father, the kids might have felt they had no recourse but to take it. I mentioned to her that there is a counselor at school if she wanted to talk to anyone about her feelings and she said " I know who I am, I know what I want and I know what I will not accept. You gave me that." I don't regret one moment of being there for my kids, not even if I end up alone on the street (not likely to happen, because I have always found a way to survive and prosper in the past, I will continue to do so). The only thing I would have changed knowing what I know now is that I would have continued to take work contracts during the summer to keep my hand in the work world. Going back after five years of being out is going to be tough in the tech field.

Just keep being there for your kids. I believe that as long as you don't tell them that they are imagining things if they ask questions about their father's actions (oddly enough, back then I always told them "We can't change what anyone else does, we can only decide how we react to what they do.", and keep them as safe as you can, they can figure out a lot for themselves, including if they need someone else to talk to. I don't know how old yours are, but mine started figuring out dad was "off" occasionally around 8. They learned to duck and cover (DD words for retreating to her bedroom when she saw him picking at everyone-no one had done or could do anything to his satisfaction) shortly thereafter.

[Notwendy]

FF, the kids usually don't say anything when dad is speaking, but if I speak back, that is when they look at me and say "don't fight".

( maybe they see me as triggering him )

The note actually shocked me. It was the end of a school year, and I just put all their school stuff in a box. Several school years of this and we needed more storage space. I decided to go through their stuff and keep things they did- their drawings, stories and such, and toss things like worsheets and busywork. ( I did not sort it before).

That's when I found some notes. One said "mom and dad are fighting again, they should get a divorse" (spelled that way) another one was a note to their dad saying "just so you know it is mom's fault not yours".

Those were hard to see. I was so sad. I had no idea the kids thought this as they didn't talk to me about what they were thinking about us. It was really hard to see that they blamed me, particularly since at the time they were written, I was basically doing everything their father wanted in order to keep the peace.  Co-dependent? Yes. I didn't know what else to do. Dad was calm and happy- in front of them.

I was depressed as heck, feeling mostly like I was their dad's live in housekeeper/nanny so he could come and go as he pleased, and his blow up doll at night just so he wouldn't be raging. However, they did hear me yell and get emotional at the point where I was trying to get through to him during those awful circular talks. I didn't want to be that person, so eventually I just kept silent.

I don't know if they think that now. I don't talk about him to them. Eventually once I went silent he decided not to paint me black anymore and started being nicer. Was it the push pull thing? I don't know. I was so unhappy at the time I was not thinking about him. I do think he realized he had done significant damage to his marriage and it scared him. He has made a larger effort to be a part of the marriage now.

He knows how to look good for everyone else and he does it well.So it was easy to conclude that I was the one that was out of control emotionally.

Very triggering for me too, since my mother could paint me black and get my father to blame me for making her unhappy. But I have a good relationship with my kids. I just have to trust that.

[OffRoad]

I am now confused. H is still in the spare bedroom, but has left all his things in the master bedroom. He has started eating the food I cook, when he hasn't done so for nearly a year. He is cleaning up the mess he makes in the kitchen and taking out the trash without being asked to. He has started with some bizarre OCD behavior (scraping out the bottom of a food bowl over and over when there really is nothing left; folding and laying out his clothes on the floor next to the clothes hamper-used to be in a pile right next to the hamper; telling our son all the things he is supposed to be doing-I covered that with S months ago and he's been doing well; scrubbing the dishes before putting them in the dishwasher-he never put his dishes in the dishwasher at all before, much less scrubbed them clean before doing so). At first I thought he was preparing himself to leave and live alone. Then this morning he ruffles my hair like things are normal, but I can tell it's not normal. Tonight, when he went out to the garage to get a soda, he asked me if I wanted one (common courtesy was an item that came up during our discussion-he didn't understand the concept of asking if someone else wanted something when he went to get something-cookies, soda, a glass of water). I have continued on as if his behavior is completely separate from my life: building props for my sister's gymnastics team, selling items on Etsy, grocery shopping, driving S the half hour to school and driving back home, etc. And I still talk to him like I would any person and thank him for courteous behavior.

I guess it doesn't really matter what is up, since bottom line I am going to do the same thing no matter what. I know I can no longer trust him, being as he withdrew from the relationship 2 1/2 years ago (by his own admission), yet every time I said that I felt like I was in the relationship alone, he insisted he was there for me. (I learned about gaslighting. How exciting.) I have to be ready to take care of myself and my son on my own. It would just be nice to know what the heck is going on.

Does mid life crisis affect people with BPD more severely?

[Notwendy]

Has your H seen any kind of mental health professional? I ask this because of what sounds like a recent personality change that seems to be getting worse.

BPD- and traits- ebb and flow, but they are there from the beginning of the r/s. Even with BPD, there is a spectrum of how one is affected and there can be crisis, but to me it is more of a constant.

As I aluded to before, my H has traits and so the behaviors were more quirky than damaging, and when the kids were little, went through several years of painting me black. He didn't move out of the bedroom, but he worked long hours and was basically gone most of the time.He would altertnate between expecting to have sex- without much affection or not having much to do with me. Yet as far as he was concerned, divorce was not what he wanted. I had small children at the time and felt it was best to focus on them.

There is a push pull pattern to many relationships which is exaggerated with BPD. When he first pulled away from me emotionally, I would pursue him for affection. He liked that but when he painted me black, it made him pull away more. If I were playing the game with him, I would have then pulled back too, but I was not playing. I simply became silent and compliant and eventually depressed- where I "left" the relationship because of caretaker burnout.

That's when he kicked into gear and pursued me. I didn't know about the push pull. The BPD traits persisted, but it has not been as bad as the years he painted me black. I think because he did mature some, but also because I did too and also went through counseling.

Your H may be responding to you not responding to his withdrawal by pursuing him, and instead, just letting him be with his feelings. However, I'd be concerned about recent changes in behavior of anyone- BPD or not- who is not being  seen by a health care professional and counseling. Even if someone has BPD, they could still have depression or some kind of physical issue. Is there a way to get him to see someone?

[formflier]

 

Offroad,

Very general advice is to really validate and thank for good behavior... .and if he exhibits bad behavior... .to not give any reaction... .or as little as possible.

Whenever you can get momentum going in a good direction... .try to keep it going.

As far as what is going on... .who knows. 

I agree with Notwendy that getting to a mental health professional is a great idea.  Before bringing it up I would do some reading about that on here.

One thing to think about... .you husband withdrew several years ago... .if he is trying to come back... .are you ready to let him back in.  Remember... .pwBPD traits can be very sensitive to emotion... so if you are conflicted about the "old him" coming back... .he may pick up on it.

Lots to talk about... .thanks for sharing! 

FF