Emotional Affairs - Helpful or Hurtful?

[Crumbling]

 

I recently reached out and found support from an old friend.  He was understanding, and supportive, and validating and he took me out to give me a refreshing taste of what it feels like to be 'wooed'.  I really believe that there was no underlying intent to 'steal me away' or interfere with my r/s with my BPDh of ten years but simply a friendly nudge for my self esteem to make me feel cared for.   And I posted about it here.

I was warned by other members that perhaps I am treading on dangerous ground.  I am emotionally needy, this is definitely true.  My BPDh has a difficult time expressing any desire for me at all, so I do feel deprived of an emotional connection to someone.  No doubt about it.  Someone said this would make me emotionally vulnerable.  That makes sense.

But my question is this... .If one's emotional needs are not being met by their SO, does that mean that they need to be left unmet as long as you are with that SO?  :)o we not try reaching out to others to help us?  How do you keep yourself from falling for an emotional affair while still reaching out for support (other than not going to the opposite sex of course)?

In my case, my actions seem to have helped.  My h has been much more attentive and has been trying a lot harder to be kind and supportive of me since then.  I can't specifically say that my afternoon with my friend is the cause of this change of heart - I have also made it clear that if things don't improve, I am prepared to leave.  But it still makes me wonder if it had an effect on his attitude.

I also thought a lot about this friendship I have with this man.  I think in a way I have always had an emotional connection with him.  I have often thought of him as a big brother, or a spiritual sounding board - someone who could look into my eyes and know what lives there in that moment.  He has always been that way, and will always be that way.

Does that mean I have an unhealthy emotional attachment to this man?  There has never been and never will be anything sexual between us, I know this for a fact.  But... .what about the emotional attachment?  I don't feel anything sexual towards him, and he isn't the type of friend that you can just pick up the phone and call at any time, he's life is too full for that, so I only get to see him two, three times a year.   I don't miss him when I don't see him.  I pray for him, but I don't really long to be with him or anything.

Has anyone else got any experience they can share in this area that may help me understand the difference between an unhealthy emotional connection with another individual and a healthy one?  Is there such a thing as a healthy emotional connection with someone other than your SO?  I know staying away from the opposite sex is the obvious answer, but sometimes we can't pick the gender of our friends, right?  

I'm looking for any and all insights you can offer.  

Thanks, c.

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[formflier]

 

Boy... .the answer here "depends" on so many things... .

Figuring out if this is healthy for you is going to take some time... .but I will say that you asking about it indicates that it may be healthy.  It's not hidden.

You seem open to the process of figuring out what is the proper role for this r/s in my life.

What does your husband know about this?  How have you presented it to him? 

Is this something you have discussed with a T?

[Notwendy]

I think you will get different responses from different people here. Some couples are OK with more open relationships and others are not. It's hard to define a healthy emotional attachment and one that is not. I think this depends on the individual's ability to be emotionally healthy. I would venture to say that if we are in a long term relationship with an emotionally unhealthy person, that we are not emotionally healthy ourselves. An emotionally healthier person would not have felt the strong attraction to our partners as we have. Maybe in rare occasions a person who choses an emotionally healthy partner may need to cope with changes- such as in the mililary where a soldier comes back with PTSD, but for the most part, we choose a parter who matches us emotionally.

So, here are my personal insights on emotional affairs:

1)If I chose an emotionally unavailable person, that tells me that something about me chose that person, and if I don't go through the process of growth and change by facing the issues in my current r/s, and turn to someone else to ease my discomfort, then I will very likely choose another dysfunctional person. My discomfort in my current r/s is my impetus for personal growth ( I am not talking about severe abuse- one should not stay in that case). I am responsible for at least part of the issues in my r/s and improving my emotional health will benefit me by making a positive change in me and all my relationships, so it seems better to me to do that work.

2) Just because I am married does not mean I will not be attracted to people. I am wired that way. If I deny that, I am lying to myself. The only choice I have is how I choose to act or not act on it. People who deny their nature- the way they are wired are vulnerable to finding themselves doing something they don't want to do because they are in denial. Then we see all kinds of things in the news such as famous preachers in bed with their congregants. Why, because they have deluded themselves to thinking this can't happen to them because they think they are moral. I like the concept that very Orthodox Jews have- putting a boundary around a rule they don't want to break. Orthodox men will not touch a woman or be alone with one who is not their wife. They won't even shake hands. There is nothing against the rules about shaking someone's hands. They just know that if they keep these rules, they won't ever end up in a situation they can not resist. Although this is not my own lifestyle- I like to shake people's hands and think a friendly hug between friends is OK, the idea of keeping strong boundaries to protect my values is something I consider.

3) Most affairs start gradually with incremental intimacy. Most people don't end up naked in a hotel room with someone they just met. It starts with talking, then more personal talk, then doing something together alone. It starts with a friendly hug, and then more. Going to lunch with a friend, talking personally with them and hugging isn't doing something wrong, but at what point are you crossing a line. It's hard to tell, so people who don't want to have affairs don't go near that line. They say, if you don't want to slip into the river, don't go to the shoreline, or don't go to the river at all.

I admit to being someone who would be vulnerable to an emotional affair. I would most likely fall for someone who I could talk to about anything. However, I also know that if I am not as emotionally stable as I would like to be ( still in recovery) that anyone who I feel an emotional connection with is not likely to be good for me, nor would I be good for him. As tempting as attraction is to me, it is also a danger signal! Don't go there.

I don't want to cheat so I don't go near the river. We can't choose the gender of our friends, but we can choose our friends. When doing the 12 steps, I chose a female sponsor as I didn't want to introduce a sympathetic male into my life and also discuss all my relationship stuff with him. I have male aquaintances but am not too personally close.

Naturally, my marital vows are meaningful to me, and I would not want to hurt my H, but I do not make this the only reason as I could easily justify my behavior by making him the reason for wanting to be emotionally close to someone. My reason is me- my integrity, and my emotional health. I don't want to deal with the mess that would cause and so, I make large boundaries between myself an any potential attractions. Do I feel lonely sometimes? Sure, but I love myself more and so do not want to violate my own values.

[Grey Kitty]

  I'm somebody who cautioned you in the other topic... .and thought I'd weigh in again

Let me toss out a definition that works for me... ."emotional affair" is a relationship that is NOT a physical sexual affair, but has an inappropriate emotional connection that is similar. (Sexual attraction is possible, maybe even common. If you act upon it, the affair is no longer emotional... .)

So what makes it inappropriate anyway? That's a tougher one to nail down. To some degree, you know it when you see it. Consider this: You are having lunch with this guy... .and a friendly coworker [who somehow didn't know your marital status] is coincidentally sitting at the next table. Would the coworker ask you "how was your date?" upon running into you later?

But my question is this... .If one's emotional needs are not being met by their SO, does that mean that they need to be left unmet as long as you are with that SO?  :)o we not try reaching out to others to help us?  How do you keep yourself from falling for an emotional affair while still reaching out for support (other than not going to the opposite sex of course)?

It is not healthy to get all your emotional needs met by one person. Period. Ever.

Yes, it is healthy to reach out for support. That is true even if your spouse is an emotionally mature person!

Unfortunately, when your spouse is a pwBPD, you have two things that muddy the waters. First, you get VERY FEW emotional needs met by your spouse. And second, your spouse is most likely acting in ways to isolate you from other people... .and may well accuse you of having an affair with anybody you talk to, plus some people you don't!

I know I've had to very strongly assert my boundaries of having privacy when getting support from other people. My wife did object that most of them were women. I don't know that all of them were healthy, but looking back at all my various supporters/friends over the years, none of them felt like emotional affairs to me. My wife might disagree; I know she has accused me in the past. OTOH, my wife has acknowledged at least two relationships she has had over the years of our marriage were emotional affairs. And thinking about it, I'd say that she had one with a coworker prior to getting involved with me.

Crumbling, I want to be very clear about what I'm saying and what I'm not saying.

I am *NOT* saying that you are having an emotional affair with this guy, or that you are doing something inappropriate, wrong, or dangerous.

I'm saying that you are in an area that ancient mapmakers would have written "Here there be dragons." It is an area where there are dangerous things, and you are not quite sure of the landscape.

Keep on examining the landscape, figure out what is dangerous, and work out how far away you have to be to stay safe. It is OK if you adjust your position for safety over time.

[Skip]

Does that mean I have an unhealthy emotional attachment to this man?  There has never been and never will be anything sexual between us, I know this for a fact.  But... .what about the emotional attachment?  I don't feel anything sexual towards him, and he isn't the type of friend that you can just pick up the phone and call at any time, he's life is too full for that, so I only get to see him two, three times a year.   I don't miss him when I don't see him.  I pray for him, but I don't really long to be with him or anything.

It's not a healthy relationship.

I understand the appeal. Many do - it's why these things happen so often.  

It's almost a certainty that one or more people are going to be hurt before it all over.

Its rare that affairs are not discovered.

If you read about the transactional dynamics of affairs, they are incremental to the marriage. In affect, the person enters into two incomplete relationships in an attempt to create one complete relationship.

Often the affair partner is doing something unhealthy.  Why does he get emotionally involved with someone who is truly not emotionally available?  There is a reason.

Its a house of cards - and its fun until it falls.  But unlike a house of cards, the fall is not back to baseline or where you started - it much lower.

And if you want a sense for how an emotional affair lays on the husband, go ask members of the Leaving Board. You will see incredible devastation - betrayal trauma.

The is a road littered with casualties.

And it often always starts out as something seemingly innocent.

[Crumbling]

Skip~ this relationship I have with my friend I have had since before I married my BPDh.  The r/s has been the same since day one, and it has always been one that my h knows about. My h has never stood in the way of it, or ever even hinted he felt threatened by it.  I have never left my h in search of my friend for comfort or to be wooed... .until this Vday.  And I didn't search it out then either.  We stumbled upon each other at the grocery store!

GK~Thanks for weighing in.  My coworkers would think he was my brother, I'm almost certain of that.  And I really like what you said about needing support from many streams to be healthy, that's what I've been thinking. 

I'm glad you've challenged me to think about this, tho.  I don't want no dragons, I've got enough fires to put out round here as it is!  I am just trying to sort everything out... . ,

c.

 

[formflier]

 

How often do you, your friend and your husband get together?

[Stalwart]

Hey Crumbling:

I can only answer this question with my own experiences and include a question:

"If one's emotional needs are not being met by their SO, does that mean that they need to be left unmet as long as you are with that SO? " Question is - if he feels that his needs are also not being met, that can frequently happen regardless if we know or recognize that some times, is it OK if he takes the same approach to solving his emotional/physical needs? Well two questions actually: How would that affect you if he did? Would you feel mistreated and betrayed? Someone acting on emotional needs typically end up in situations of physical relationships that develop from them. It seems to be a natural progression and in some cases it wasn't even planned but people just seem to fall into it as an extension of the need.

I have been on that side of the equation and it's my experience that it's about the most hurtful situation a human being can either be put into or subjected to. Personally, regardless which partner it is that has unmet wants and needs (and it generally ends up in the dance that it's both not just one partner as a situation deteriorates) I truly believe it's not time to be 'wooed' We can all woo and be wooed, that isn't even challenging out there. There are always people out there that will step into that role regardless if your married or not (I'm not suggesting that's your friend either).  Fact is rather than falling into being wooed maybe it is time to access if the relationship you're in is really working for you in the ways that you need it to. To break trust and take alternative actions ends up hurting everyone - that usually includes both people participating outside the marriage as well as the person sitting at home waiting for you to come home.

It is hard to have emotional needs when you're living with someone who needs are confined so often to their own existence and not necessarily in the interests of their partner's needs. So many here probably really live that. It's part of the problem that systemic.

For my part I don't have it in me to even consider acting or considering acting outside my marriage. That doesn't relate to an inability or lack of opportunity - just to what I believe is right or wrong for the person I live with, the person I would be involved with and particularly for the person who puts their head on the pillow at night knowing they're the best person they can be (and that's me.)

I love my wife and have been challenged in the past desperately in the same situation that you're living but the fact is, in my opinion, if I wasn't really happy or hoped for future happiness or could even remotely envision that I would have that I would have left prior to even consider going outside a marriage while still in it.

Everybody has to do their own thing in their own way and it isn't about judging your situation or even thinking I'm able to - it's only about knowing and experiencing that I do know regardless of the desperateness; the repercussions of infidelity on him and in turn on you might just not be worth the 'dream' of what that might be for a temporary period. There are certainly a lot of people that would disagree with that and say that you deserve that happiness but when that same happiness turns into a nightmare it somehow loses it's luster.

Hope you find your way through this and I so wish you could find what you needed at home but I also know how challenging that can be in some situations. There just aren't easy answers but there certainly are enough doubts and questions that plague most of us just as they are you. I hope you the best in your decisions and again, not about judgment - just about sharing experiences.

[vortex of confusion]

I am one of the other ones that offered a word of warning. What caught my attention and made me go hmmm was the fact that you referred to him as a non-husband and felt like you needed to stipulate that he was just a friend. It sounded like might be protesting a bit. Not trying to pick on you. Sometimes our words reveal things that are going on at a subconscious level.

Emotional affairs are hurtful and are rarely planned. They are difficult to describe but you will know it when you see it. It is good that you are thinking about these things. I wish I hadn't been blindsided by all of my unmet needs. For me, it was a case where I knew I had needs that weren't being met but I didn't realize the extent of it until somebody came along and gave me some attention. I can remember feeling like you describe: being wooed, being able to have a conversation, feeling like a person

When you find yourself thinking stuff comparing the relationship to what you have with your husband, that is very, very dangerous territory.

[JohnLove]

Wow Skip, you make it seem so black and white.  

I can't recall the previous thread on this topic but have thought very often about healthy and unhealthy friendships... .and where the "line" is. I have been cheated on with an emotional affair. The feelings of devastation and confusion are paramount. If physical cheating is involved it is so much clearer what one would and should do.

My interpretation is that crumbling went out with an old friend who her husband knows about that might have some charisma or positive energy and she received an emotional "boost" from the sense of fun and normalcy... .and from being treated fairly, properly, or with compassion.

I am not so sure this is an unhealthy relationship. Emotional affairs are just that. People having their emotional needs met by someone other than their SO. I would think that would include regular communication, sharing TMI, perhaps physical (not sexual) contact, potentially triangulation, and putting this person BEFORE their husband and SO.

BPD just confuses everything before we even start talking about this topic but I cannot see how crumbling has done any wrong but I agree she may be approaching the "line" if this friendship (relationship) progresses into something else... .but I don't see that by her own admission.

[vortex of confusion]

putting this person BEFORE their husband and SO.

I wanted to pull that out because I think that is the biggest red flag! If you find yourself putting another person (that isn't an offspring) ahead of your partner, then the line has definitely been crossed.

[Skip]

I am not so sure this is an unhealthy relationship. Emotional affairs are just that. People having their emotional needs met by someone other than their SO. I would think that would include regular communication, sharing TMI, perhaps physical (not sexual) contact, potentially triangulation, and putting this person BEFORE their husband and SO.

JohnLove, I remember how violated you were when your SO wore jewelry from prior relationships - a friendship and an engagement ring. Betrayal of the relationship bond is really emotionally damaging.

Skip~ this relationship I have with my friend I have had since before I married my BPDh.  The r/s has been the same since day one, and it has always been one that my h knows about. My h has never stood in the way of it, or ever even hinted he felt threatened by it.  I have never left my h in search of my friend for comfort or to be wooed... .until this Vday.  And I didn't search it out then either.  We stumbled upon each other at the grocery store!

Crumbling, this doesn't really change anything. I know what I'm saying isn't what you want to hear but I say it with your bests interests at heart. And I am saying it in very clear, unambiguous terms, so that there is no room to misunderstand. I care about you finding a better life in your marriage -- that's one reason why we have all worked so hard to make this resource available (bpdfamily). This is not a trigger for me, nor am I imposing my moral beliefs on you (I think  ).  An emotional affair is not a tool - it's not a crutch - it is adding more dysfunction to a struggling marriage.

BPD just confuses everything before we even start talking about this topic but I cannot see how crumbling has done any wrong but I agree she may be approaching the "line" if this friendship (relationship) progresses into something else... .but I don't see that by her own admission.

You are right.  BPD does really confuse things.  That's why a support group is helpful. We understand the confusion and the emotion. We are all standing outside looking in and can help center each other when the confusion reigns.  I don't believe anyone has judged the prior acts of the OP in terms of right or wrong. This is all about making a decision on tomorrow.

Here is a recent site survey that we conducted... . This is what members on the leaving board have reported.


             What was the final straw that ended the relationship?

[123Phoebe]

Has anyone else got any experience they can share in this area that may help me understand the difference between an unhealthy emotional connection with another individual and a healthy one?  Is there such a thing as a healthy emotional connection with someone other than your SO?  I know staying away from the opposite sex is the obvious answer, but sometimes we can't pick the gender of our friends, right?  

I have a very dear male friend who happens to be gay.  We get along famously.

I think where we run into dangerous territory is when we start comparing our "friends" to our "partners", or another person who is fulfilling a need that our partner isn't, one that it usually reserved for an SO.

In the other thread, Crumbling, you mentioned that you and your friend both knew what he (friend) was doing, i.e., "teaching you how a lady should be treated".  You didn't say, how a friend should be treated.  So to me, it sounds like you're comparing the two-- husband and male friend.  You referred to friend as your non-husband.

The common denominator in both relationships is you.

So, if it were me struggling with this situation, I'd look into my own behaviors, feelings, thought processes and compare those to how I'm treating or behaving differently with each person.  What messages am I sending out?  Am I being clear in my intentions?  What am I being swayed by and why?  How is this creating a safer environment for my marriage to flourish?  What lessons am I learning here?

Again, we teach people how to treat us.  We send out all kinds of information about ourselves, without even realizing it.

[JohnLove]

I wanted to pull that out because I think that is the biggest red flag! If you find yourself putting another person (that isn't an offspring) ahead of your partner, then the line has definitely been crossed.

Yes vortex, I totally agree. Then it becomes very unhealthy and potentially even abusive.

JohnLove, I remember how violated you were when your SO wore jewelry from prior relationships - a friendship and an engagement ring. Betrayal of the relationship bond is really emotionally damaging.

Yes. That is for sure. To keep things in context I had only "discovered" my girlfriend suffered BPD about 8 weeks earlier. I had never heard of BPD before this. I researched my heart out to come to terms with it all. This led me to bpdfamily.com.    It was never resolved to my complete satisfaction. She took the rings off in the first instance and then disposed of them (at least that is what I am led to believe). I had to practice radical acceptance to make it better. It seems I was DEEPLY hurt and offended by her actions, and it seems she was unaware what she had done "wrong"... .and when she learnt of my hurt she tried to resolve it as best she could.

Skip~ this relationship I have with my friend I have had since before I married my BPDh.  The r/s has been the same since day one, and it has always been one that my h knows about. My h has never stood in the way of it, or ever even hinted he felt threatened by it.  I have never left my h in search of my friend for comfort or to be wooed... .until this Vday.  And I didn't search it out then either.  We stumbled upon each other at the grocery store!

I think I missed this part about crumbling's feeling toward her "friend" this Valentines Day. Valentines Day is a romantic holiday focused on intimacy. This is a concern. The fact that they "stumbled" across each other at the grocery store is interesting. I think the Lord works in mysterious ways. I feel things often happen for a reason. He was possibly offering her an opportunity for something she needed to feel her life, or maybe it was simply a test for her to question her feelings about her marriage and go deeper into it. A reality check of sorts. It ultimately led to her posting here to explore herself and seek guidance and validation. That is a great thing.

Crumbling, this doesn't really change anything. I know what I'm saying isn't what you want to hear but I say it with your bests interests at heart. And I am saying it in very clear, unambiguous terms, so that there is no room to misunderstand. I care about you finding a better life in your marriage -- that's one reason why we have all worked so hard to make this resource available (bpdfamily). This is not a trigger for me, nor am I imposing my moral beliefs on you (I think  ).  An emotional affair is not a tool - it's not a crutch - it is adding more dysfunction to a struggling marriage.

I am still not absolutely certain her true motive was to enter into an emotional affair with her friend or was guilty of seeking such. I would suggest she has received emotional support she was denied from her partner. Her needs were met for a time that did not contradict her primary relationship. Ideally in a perfect world that emotional support and validation of her worth would have come from her partner. Somewhat sadly... .we do not live in a perfect world.

I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT EMOTIONAL AFFAIRS ARE DEVASTATING AND ARE A SERIOUS BREACH OF INTIMATE TRUST THAT HAS THE POTENTIAL TO LEAD TO A DEEPER UNDERSTANDING OF EACH OTHER AND THE COMMITMENT... .OR FOR THAT TRUST TO NEVER BE FULLY REGAINED OR EVEN COMPLETELY DESTROYED.

It is not something I would wish to have to endure.

BPD just confuses everything before we even start talking about this topic but I cannot see how crumbling has done any wrong but I agree she may be approaching the "line" if this friendship (relationship) progresses into something else... .but I don't see that by her own admission.

You are right.  BPD does really confuse things.  That's why a support group is helpful. We understand the confusion and the emotion. We are all standing outside looking in and can help center each other when the confusion reigns.  I don't believe anyone has judged the prior acts of the OP in terms of right or wrong. This is all about making a decision on tomorrow.

But ideally the decision for tomorrow would be for her to turn to her partner now that she has "rebalanced" or "centred". The catalyst for this can occur on here or elsewhere. It would seem to me intent plays a large part. She was not and is not seeking to be unfaithful. Her partner seemed to sense her change of attitude and responded better to her. I feel this may be a win for everyone involved. She got by with a little help from her friend. That would make a great song.   

I would like to say a big THANK YOU for making this resource available Skip, I have found no other resource quite like it.

[Notwendy]

I want to commend Crumbling for posting here and getting the feedback.

I think these things are most dangerous when people deny their feelings and justify what they are doing, until it is too late and someone gets hurt.

Someone coming into our lives making us think could be a good thing, but being aware that we could be walking down to that river and getting too close to the edge and so turning around before we get there is a good thing too.

[Crumbling]

Great input everyone.  To answer Formflier (welcome back, btw!), my h, my friend and I used to play cards together twice a week ten years ago.  Since then, circumstances have changed a lot.  His MS has progressed quite a bit, and his musical career has taken off like never before.  And my h and I moved away. 

Now, we only see each other two or three times a year, and it has mostly been both my h and I visiting, and not just me.  This Vday was a fluke, and thank you JohnLove, for pointing out God's hand in it... .that is exactly how it felt to me - God putting someone in my path to help me sort out what is missing in the r/s.  What was completely obvious to me driving home that day, is that I need to feel, well, cherished even if it's just every now and then.

 

I appreciate the warnings, the cautions and the experiences you've shared.  I think deep down maybe perhaps a bit of me wanted my h to be jealous and maybe more aware that I am vulnerable to this because of my emotionally needy state.  And I think the message did come through - loud and clear.  But a piece of me sort of felt guilty too.

In the past, I have been cheated on and I have cheated on someone.  I've been down both roads, with other partners.  I know how deep a violation of trust like this can run.  It would devastate both of us, if either did it.  I know that with certainty, and I'm not willing to go there ------ hence my cautions and openness about my Vday experience.  One thing I am very proud of in my marriage is that neither one of us have stepped out of it, in ten years.  This solidarity has given me hope for the future and I'm not willing to give this up. 

Phoebe ~ I used 'non-husband' and 'non-date' very flippant... .I had heard the terms here and thought that it was a good fit with how that day went.  Perhaps I don't understand the urban significance of using such terms, and I did feel sort of funny using them.  He is a friend.  Second to my h, he knows me best, and I guess I thought was being clever in using the terms... .my bad.  VC and GK have already helped me see how these terms can be dangerous to use.

Skip, I thank you for taking the stand you did and being so forthright with your advice. But John and GK are right, this was merely me getting though an otherwise lonely day 'with a little help from my friend'.   And it felt good.  And I know now I can accept the experience as a boost to my self esteem and be proud of myself for doing what I felt like doing, without feeling I may have breached some unwritten rule. 

I know this because I know:  I am not looking for this man to replace my h.  I will not go seeking time alone with him, nor do I run to him when things get bad in my marriage. I am not emotionally gaga over him when we're apart.  I know now these things could signal an emotionally unhealthy r/s and I will be on the alert for such things.

[Crumbling]

I want to commend Crumbling for posting here and getting the feedback.

I think these things are most dangerous when people deny their feelings and justify what they are doing, until it is too late and someone gets hurt.

Someone coming into our lives making us think could be a good thing, but being aware that we could be walking down to that river and getting too close to the edge and so turning around before we get there is a good thing too.

Thank you.

[formflier]

Great input everyone.  To answer Formflier (welcome back, btw!), my h, my friend and I used to play cards together twice a week ten years ago.  Since then, circumstances have changed a lot.  His MS has progressed quite a bit, and his musical career has taken off like never before.  And my h and I moved away.  

Thanks Crumbling... .had a busy time... .a bit of drama with wife (big shock I know... ! ) and now seem to be back to even keel... .getting some needed projects done around the house. 

I would like to suggest there are two different questions on the table... .and... .I'll give my opinions.

Are emotional affairs helpful or hurtful

Hurtful... .no doubt about it.

Here is my other suggested question

Is Crumbling engaging in an emotional affair

This is best guess... .with information I see... .my answer is NO. 

However... .I also am worried that Crumbling doesn't quite see the danger as clearly as I do... .and I suspect Skip does (don't want to speak to clearly for others... .but the post was pretty clear!  Nice work on that BTW... !)... .and others.

Since it is not hidden... .and since Crumbling is open about getting feedback... .that leads me to the NO answer as to what is going on right now.

It is hard for me to see my own flaws... .I suspect it is for others.  It has taken a long time to understand my triggers and my emotional vulnerabilities... .not saying I have it perfect now.

So... .what I hope Crumbling will see is that she is walking in territory that has lots of mines in it.  The momentum can change quickly and once certain lines are crossed... .it can be hard to turn back.

What would have happened if after "accidentally" bumping into each other on Valentines day... .that there was an "accidental" brushing of a leg... .or hand... .and that touch lingering during lunch.  Lots of restaurants are in hotels... .maybe that is the hotel he is staying in... .

None of these steps were planned... they just happened... .and in an emotionally vulnerable state... .wow... that can go south quick.  Even if it was just to talk... .then the talk gets more emotional... .well... .of course you need a hug... .and that lingers... .

Crumbling,

Please don't take any of this as accusation... .or judgement... .but as a picture of the mines that surround you.

Last thoughts for now.

Is it possible that you can continue this relationship and no feelings ever get hurt... .? 

Now... .look at it in a different way.

Is it likely that you can continue this relationship and no feelings ever get hurt... .?

I'll hush for now... .interested in your thoughts on the landscape around you... .

[Crumbling]

Please don't take any of this as accusation... .or judgement... .but as a picture of the mines that surround you.

   Thank you all for caring enough to take the time to write, and to want to protect me and my r/s.  I have no ill-feelings from any of your responses, only a sense of concern, for which I am grateful.  I am glad to hear the things being said, and my own option, and my red flag detectors are now well armed!

Last thoughts for now.

Is it possible that you can continue this relationship and no feelings ever get hurt... .? 

Now... .look at it in a different way.

Is it likely that you can continue this relationship and no feelings ever get hurt... .?

I'll hush for now... .interested in your thoughts on the landscape around you... .

short answer... .yes.  It is possible and likely that the r/s will remain as it is, as it was and as it always will be.  I understand that I may have tread close to a thin line line here, but honestly, in my yard, the landscape looks pretty healthy.  Or white.pure white.pure snow white.everywhere.really.   

The test for me was: would he have acted this way if my h was there?  And I'd say, if he still knew how much I was hurting, and my h was there, he would have done the same thing, and at each opportunity letting my h do it first, but then jumping right in to hold the door, bring my coffee, etc.  It's just who he is.  He's a very moral man.  And so am I... .only I have more 'wo-'.       get it? I'm a wo-man

[allibaba]

I was warned by other members that perhaps I am treading on dangerous ground.  I am emotionally needy, this is definitely true.  My BPDh has a difficult time expressing any desire for me at all, so I do feel deprived of an emotional connection to someone.  No doubt about it.  Someone said this would make me emotionally vulnerable.  That makes sense.

Has anyone else got any experience they can share in this area that may help me understand the difference between an unhealthy emotional connection with another individual and a healthy one?  Is there such a thing as a healthy emotional connection with someone other than your SO?  I know staying away from the opposite sex is the obvious answer, but sometimes we can't pick the gender of our friends, right? 

I'm looking for any and all insights you can offer. 

Hey there Crumbling,

I don't get to the boards very often any more, but oh boy can I relate to this one.

I had a friend (had been a friend forever) that helped me emotionally through the final stages of my BPD relationship.  I fought really hard to make my marriage work, but sadly my marriage to my uBPD husband was not 'meant to be'.  The marriage ended due to a firm boundary on physical violence and the fact that I was no longer able to protect our then almost 2 yr old son from some of my husband's more harmful BPD behavior  :'(  I am quite a romantic and it was a 10 yr relationship so it was a tough loss.  I know that this is the STAYING BOARD and I have to say if I could have stayed, I would have.  I am a big proponent of working the lessons and meeting the dragons face on

Anyway, I got very close to a man (SAFE FRIEND) during this journey, honestly he was a huge support, provider of emotionally intelligent and calm advice and I do not regret involving him at all.  The thing was that it WAS (or would have been classified as) an emotional affair.  I say this because at that point my husband and I had separated so the 'affair' bit is questionable.  He is married though... .so on his side its certainly an emotional affair.  For me the difference is boundaries.  Honestly I told him things that I wouldn't have told a normal friend.  I told him things that would have made my husband uncomfortable and I would not have been comfortable with his wife ease dropping on our discussions.  We were in constant contact.  We ALMOST fell into a real affair (I didn't see it coming until it was almost too late). 

My journey is here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=232551.0;all but the abridged version was that 9 months after my BPD relationship finished, I ended up going to therapy to deal with my dad's Alzheimers (the grief was soul crushing).  Come to find out what I was grieving wasn't my dad getting sick, it was that my dad hadn't protected me from my mom's BPD behavior as a little girl and I thought he was the normal one and he should have been more capable of protecting me.  I hadn't dealt with those feelings.  It took about 3 therapy sessions to hash this one out.  Every time I left therapy I felt like I had been hit by a mack truck.  The last session (and about 5 gallons of tears later) it clicked. I realized that 1. my dad did the best he could and 2. years and years later my dad in his 70's had tried to defend me with my abusive BPD husband where he hadn't tried to with my mom.  It was one of the last things he really did before his mind starting the quick decline with Alzheimers.  Somehow all the pain and suffering and grief left me and I made peace with my past.  (I know this all seems like a horrible tangent, but its not - I promise.) 

The interesting thing was that I realized that I was pursuing (albeit unconsciously) another EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE MAN.  HOLY YIKES BATMAN.  Even though my SAFE FRIEND wasn't abusive (very nice and kind actually), he was another VERSION of EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE (just like my BPD ex). 

As I learned in my journey in my BPD relationship, I got my 'big girl pants on' and I talked to my dear friend (used to be SAFE FRIEND... .now EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE friend) and I told him that I needed to step back (not disappear, just step back).  I talked to him about our chemistry openly and why that relationship that we had been dancing around wasn't going to be good enough for me, that I deserved better    To his credit, he admitted his side of things and said he was committed to staying friends but that he wasn't quite sure where to go or what the boundaries might be so he would take my lead.  He and I are still close friends and maybe its not exactly where it should be (more on that later), but its heading in the right direction.  His personality is that he was a rescuer and I was the person that he got to rescue.  I was going through the same pattern again emotionally unavailable dad... .wishing I could be protected and rescued and still looking for it in another form (without realizing it).

Once I stopped investing emotional energy in a man who was not available (SAFE FRIEND who became EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE), a lovely, kind, intelligent (but most importantly) emotionally healthy man walked into my life.  It was strange actually because I closed one door and immediately a healthier door opened.  Wow.  What a difference.  He hasn't been in my life that long (6 months, give or take) but I am enjoying a healthy relationship (woot woot).  Its early days but I am so grateful that I made the choices I did with my wonderful, caring EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE 'just a friend.'

I will also say that in the same time period, I also developed another close male friend (also married) I swear I do actually have female friends too, by the way.  Our boundaries are healthy and I have never questioned his role in my life even though we are in touch every day in some form or another.  I happily chat with him when my boyfriend is around and its no big deal.  I would not chat with Mr EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE 'just a friend' with my boyfriend around.  That is one of the ways that I know the relationship isn't right yet.  I have told my boyfriend that things with EMOTIONALLY UNAVAILABLE are 'complicated' and let him know there was emotional history there and that its a work in progress.  My boyfriend is a balanced person, he has told me that he trusts me to manage it and would rather not know the details.  There may come a day where I can't maintain the friendship anymore, but I will know if and when that day comes. 

If it does, then I will not continue the friendship (as sad as I would be) because I will not risk my new relationship because of an inability to establish and maintain firm boundaries.  My old friend knows this because I have told him so.  Feel like its better for him to operate from the same song sheet and then we can be working together towards the same goal (a good healthy friendship). 

Don't know this helps, but that is my experience!  Hopefully I have explained it ok... .phew there are a lotta men in my life   

Good luck   

[formflier]

 

Would you have acted the same way if your husband was there?

Would you have looked at him in the same way?... .for the same length of time?  Laughed the same?

[DreamGirl]

Hi Crumbling,

I also commend you for putting this out there for a greater understanding. It's brave to be vulnerable and honest.

You've been through a lot in this relationship. You've been through a lot in your life really. You have such a big heart and I just get the sense that you are trying to do the right thing. To find where you begin, your husband ends, and what being in a fulfilling relationship is really about. I also know that when we have our boundaries shattered as little girls, mine being at 9 years old, that we struggle in some pretty profound ways when it comes to figuring out what that all means and what is really OK.  

I say all of this because I just want to make sure you know where I'm coming from as I answer your original question.

Emotional Affair - Helpful or Hurtful?

I'm in a marriage that is recovering from infidelity. I love my husband more then words can say and I can not express to you how difficult this road has been.

My husband was a man who needed a friend. A man who needed to feel needed. A man who was being neglected by his wife who was just too busy dealing with debilitating grief. A man unable to deal with his own wife's inability to see past her own emotions to see the other person in the marriage.

It always begins with a first step, the first lunch, the first phone call  --- the first time he built a window to her (his affair partner) and wall to me (his wife).

The foundation of every successful, monogamous relationship (I'm not sure about those that are open or poly) has to involve absolute fidelity in the relationship and each party's commitment to the other person in the relationship.

If you focus solely on the needs of the relationship? This is not helpful to the relationship. If you were to label it as "helpful" in that it's a way of getting your needs met? It's at the cost of the relationship. You are building a wall to your partner, and opening a window to someone else ---- every single time you feel validation in being "wooed" by this other person.

You've also admitted that it feels out of bounds because I think your instincts are trying to guide you. It could be as simple as the fact that if you and I were at lunch and I brought you coffee and held the door open for you? You wouldn't feel that same emotional rush.

I also am guessing that you didn't go home and say "Hubs, you know I'm feeling pretty weird after my lunch with Mr. Friend. I felt a certain closeness to him that I'm used to feeling with you. I don't like it and I don't plan on ever having lunch with him again. I think it's a sign that we need to work on being closer."  

That's what a really strong couple does. They know that they are in a committed relationship, feel safe in saying what needs to be said, and then working on it. A pwBPD doesn't have the capacity to deal with that kind of dialogue, so you're simply keeping it locked up and tucked away.  

So you're breaking down intimacy when you have these kinds of secrets in your marriage.

Boundaries are about us. About how we value our marriages above all else and want to keep them free of unfaithful behavior. I have pretty hard lines when it comes to relationships with the opposite sex -- mostly because of me. I wouldn't have lunch with someone who I wasn't 100% positive would not "woo" me. All of my opposite sex friends (and there are literally two outside of our couple friends) respect and value my marriage. Our marriage counselor suggests having these kinds of boundaries, not because everyone cheats but because marriages thrive when intimacy is present. Secrets literally choke the intimacy right out of a relationship. We have to stay connected.

My husband would be the first to tell you that it all fell apart the minute he stopped acting like he was married. He stopped valuing the marriage as the most important thing to him.

I feel like that's what you were doing in this situation. At least from where I'm standing. I don't question your love, your commitment, or your absolute desire to be a good wife.

I just think that this isn't the way to what it is you really want. A fulfilling marriage.

~DG

[Crumbling]

I also am guessing that you didn't go home and say "Hubs, you know I'm feeling pretty weird after my lunch with Mr. Friend. I felt a certain closeness to him that I'm used to feeling with you. I don't like it and I don't plan on ever having lunch with him again. I think it's a sign that we need to work on being closer."  

I had to stop reading at this paragraph... .we just had this conversation!  Sort of.  I asked my h if he was jealous of friend.  We discussed, and he said he wasn't, not in that way.  Then he asked if he should be.  I said of course not, and that his instinct was right that I would never go there... .intentionally.  But that it scared me how good it felt, and how it filled me, and how I didn't want to be getting that feeling from other men.

We have been working at getting closer.  He has finally picked up some good habits again and has been reigning in the belittling behaviours lately.  I have enforced a new boundary, which had really pushed as a part for a short time, like a few months, which led to the Vday incident... .I'll go finish reading now... .

[Crumbling]

Would you have acted the same way if your husband was there?

Would you have looked at him in the same way?... .for the same length of time?  Laughed the same?

I would not have had the opportunity to pour my heart out with all that has been going on lately with my h, and that would have changed everything... .my friend treated me this way because he knew that I was feeling squashed by my h, his friend too. 

He said he would tell my h right up, that if he isn't taking care of me, someone else is will, and that's bad, and don't let it happen.  He said, "I'm your friend and I'm h's friend, I love you both like family.  Hearing that you two are hurting hurts me.  But right now, you need to feel like some cares, and that someone's me, and I'm going to prove it."  In case you missed this part, he is also a bit of a self-declared preacher of sorts... .it's just his character. 

I want to believe that if he had the chance to say this to h that day, h would have stepped up to the plate and friend would not have had the chance to fill this role.  Maybe, maybe not.  Wont ever know, so it doesn't matter.

gotta go, c.

[formflier]

I would not have had the opportunity to pour my heart out with all that has been going on lately with my h, and that would have changed everything... .my friend treated me this way because he knew that I was feeling squashed by my h, his friend too. 

         

That is usually an indication that the r/s is inappropriate.  Or at least the conversation. 

If you are with an opposite sex friend... .and are talking... .behaving ... .in a way that you wouldn't in front of your spouse.

 

He said he would tell my h right up, that if he isn't taking care of me, someone else is will, and that's bad, and don't let it happen.  He said, "I'm your friend and I'm h's friend, I love you both like family.  Hearing that you two are hurting hurts me.  But right now, you need to feel like some cares, and that someone's me, and I'm going to prove it."  In case you missed this part, he is also a bit of a self-declared preacher of sorts... .it's just his character. 

If this is something your husband is inviting... .as in asking another man to be an accountability partner or give constructive criticism... .it's one thing.

If a one person goes to a person outside the r/s.  Dishes about the other person in the r/s.  And the person that has been "dished to" then goes to the other person in the r/s to confront them... .tell them... .or something like that.

Wow... .that would be offensive to me... .serious breach.  Maybe not to others.

I would be interested in hearing perspectives from others on this.

I want to believe that if he had the chance to say this to h that day, h would have stepped up to the plate and friend would not have had the chance to fill this role.  Maybe, maybe not.  Wont ever know, so it doesn't matter.

Hey... .Crumbling... .not trying to beat you up... but I think what matters is the conversations that did happen on this day.

Again... .thank you for being open about this.  Many of us on the staying board have emotional needs that are not being fulfilled.

This is a hugely important topic.

I'm still a bit iffy about if the r/s with this friend is an "emotional affair"... .

But... .I certainly think that the conversation was an inappropriate one. 

Last thoughts for now.

Why drive close to the edge of the road?  Yes... .you may still be on the road... .and technically not doing anything wrong.  But... you are that much closer to the edge.

[vortex of confusion]

         

That is usually an indication that the r/s is inappropriate.  Or at least the conversation. 

If you are with an opposite sex friend... .and are talking... .behaving ... .in a way that you wouldn't in front of your spouse.

 

Hmmm. . .the first thing that came to my mind is the fact that I have noticed that I talk and behave differently when I am not with my spouse. When I am not with my spouse, I feel a lot more relaxed and open and tend to share more. The gender of the person I am with doesn't really matter. There are things that I will say and do when my husband isn't around because there is nobody to be critical of me or make me feel like I am being scrutinized.

If this is something your husband is inviting... .as in asking another man to be an accountability partner or give constructive criticism... .it's one thing.

If a one person goes to a person outside the r/s.  Dishes about the other person in the r/s.  And the person that has been "dished to" then goes to the other person in the r/s to confront them... .tell them... .or something like that.

Wow... .that would be offensive to me... .serious breach.  Maybe not to others.

I would be interested in hearing perspectives from others on this.

I agree with you on this. If my husband went and dished me to his mother and she turned around and confronted me about what he said, I would be more than mad. It is fine if he talks to her but it is not fine if she confronts me. That is my husbands job and nobody else's. Just like when I talk to my family members about my husband. I do NOT want them to confront him or treat him any differently. If my husband needs to be confronted about something that he is or isn't doing in the relationship, it is MY job to do it and nobody else's.

I will admit though that is does feel really, really, really good to know that somebody will stick up for me. That is one of the areas in my relationship that I hate. I hate that I don't feel like my husband has my back and will stand up for me or protect me.

[formflier]

Hmmm. . .the first thing that came to my mind is the fact that I have noticed that I talk and behave differently when I am not with my spouse. When I am not with my spouse, I feel a lot more relaxed and open and tend to share more. The gender of the person I am with doesn't really matter. There are things that I will say and do when my husband isn't around because there is nobody to be critical of me or make me feel like I am being scrutinized.

So... none of these things are the ahhhh haaa... that means it is definitely not good.  They are just red flags.

I don't want to minimize the danger signals that I am sending to Crumbling... or to others in same boat.  Because it is possible that everything is fine... .

I just don't think it is likely...

I hope the distinction makes sense.

Ultimately emotional affairs are hard to prove.

I've been accused of tons of them... .and tons of other things... .that is different story.

I think Crumbling's biggest thing that she has going for her... is that she is open to asking... .open to the possibility that this is not good.  She's taking a hard look.

Taking a look at ourselves is sometimes not fun.

And... .to VOCs point... .about being more relaxed when hubby is not around.  That does give some nuance and wiggle room too.

I think the fact that we are in r/s with people that leave emotional "gaps" in us... .makes us more vulnerable to emotional affairs... .and real ones

At least I feel that way... .so I keep "female friends"... .at the acquaintance level. 

[JohnLove]

I feel this thread is very enlightening. It is a complex topic for some people. Others are very clear cut. For me life is many colours or even shades of grey, although I also agree with the all or nothing thinking around this topic for some.

Would you have acted the same way if your husband was there?

Would you have looked at him in the same way?... .for the same length of time?  Laughed the same?

These are great questions... .although I am not picking up these cues in Crumbling's situation. Crumbling has revealed that she has spoken with her husband about her experience and it would seem THEY are moving forward and upward because of this experience. This is a wonderful thing in any BPD relationship. I am also open to be shown that I am mistaken.

         

That is usually an indication that the r/s is inappropriate.  Or at least the conversation. 

If you are with an opposite sex friend... .and are talking... .behaving ... .in a way that you wouldn't in front of your spouse.

 

I totally agree this is dangerous territory. Unsure if crumbling was guilty of this or behaved  inappropriately?.

He said he would tell my h right up, that if he isn't taking care of me, someone else is will, and that's bad, and don't let it happen.  He said, "I'm your friend and I'm h's friend, I love you both like family.  Hearing that you two are hurting hurts me.  But right now, you need to feel like some cares, and that someone's me, and I'm going to prove it."  In case you missed this part, he is also a bit of a self-declared preacher of sorts... .it's just his character. 

If this is something your husband is inviting... .as in asking another man to be an accountability partner or give constructive criticism... .it's one thing.

If a one person goes to a person outside the r/s.  Dishes about the other person in the r/s.  And the person that has been "dished to" then goes to the other person in the r/s to confront them... .tell them... .or something like that.

Wow... .that would be offensive to me... .serious breach.  Maybe not to others.

I would be interested in hearing perspectives from others on this.

My perspective is that this "friend" is both their friends and if he had spoken to her husband or even treated him differently after the discussions then that sounds like classic case of TRIANGULATION. Which falls under the definition of abuse in an intimate relationship.

I want to believe that if he had the chance to say this to h that day, h would have stepped up to the plate and friend would not have had the chance to fill this role.  Maybe, maybe not.  Wont ever know, so it doesn't matter.

Only you KNOW your husband and your friend here. Their feelings toward each other and their intent towards you... .but this sounds like a potentially EXPLOSIVE situation that may have had unintended consequences and the opposite outcome. Never forget you are dealing with a pwBPD.

Hey... .Crumbling... .not trying to beat you up... but I think what matters is the conversations that did happen on this day.

Again... .thank you for being open about this.  Many of us on the staying board have emotional needs that are not being fulfilled.

This is a hugely important topic.

Yes. Thank you to crumbling for starting this thread and to everybody that is participating. Whenever I feel I have my beliefs on relationships sorted, I learn something else that I realise I need to know. 

[lena7]

1)If I chose an emotionally unavailable person, that tells me that something about me chose that person[... .]

I read this argument more than once. I'm not sure if that's always the case. How could I know, back when we met, that my h was emotionally unavailable? He was very sweet and caring at the beginning of the relationship.

I was emotionally healthy as well.

[maxsterling]

What if I feel emotionally connected to another man?  Is that an emotional affair?  Since I am not gay or bi, there is no desire for sex, but there is a desire for emotional closeness.  Now what about my wife and her female friends?  She wants emotional closeness there, as two women often do.  But she HAS had same sex relationships in the past. 

She is really close to a female friend of hers who is also bisexual.  As far as I know, nothing has ever gone on between the two of them.  But is that an emotional affair?

[Grey Kitty]

I also am guessing that you didn't go home and say "Hubs, you know I'm feeling pretty weird after my lunch with Mr. Friend. I felt a certain closeness to him that I'm used to feeling with you. I don't like it and I don't plan on ever having lunch with him again. I think it's a sign that we need to work on being closer."  

I had to stop reading at this paragraph... .we just had this conversation!  Sort of.  I asked my h if he was jealous of friend.  We discussed, and he said he wasn't, not in that way.  Then he asked if he should be.  I said of course not, and that his instinct was right that I would never go there... .intentionally.  But that it scared me how good it felt, and how it filled me, and how I didn't want to be getting that feeling from other men.

Wow indeed.

First, DreamGirl's version is one where you open with the vulnerable statement. Given that her H is not a pwBPD, this probably seems a lot safer to her than it would to you. Doing something like that is really hard. Good for you for getting there when you did!

Second... .the part I put in bold... .that is the area of "You know it when you see it" about an emotional affair. It does feel seductive and good... .but not in a way that is healthy for your marriage.

And thirdly... .the approach of "I don't plan on ever having lunch with him again." That is one very clean and safe path to take. It *is* possible to be very scrupulous about cleaning up the friendship and making it safe for your marriage. It is also very hard work, and requires you to be brutally honest with yourself when you catch yourself trying to slide toward the dangerous territory. And make sure you discuss it with your friend, and that he's working with you to stay in safe territory. You may feel that this old friendship is worth that extra effort.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Skip]

My perspective is that this "friend" is both their friends and if he had spoken to her husband or even treated him differently after the discussions then that sounds like classic case of TRIANGULATION. Which falls under the definition of abuse in an intimate relationship.

Small point.  Triangulation is not abuse, it is a natural family dynamic.

It can be the source of drama, or polarizing fights - it can be a stabilizing force too.

According to Bowen, these three part relationships (triangles) have at least four possible outcomes which are as follows - 2 are good and 2 are bad:

(1) A stable pair can become destabilized by a third person;

(2) a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation);

(3) an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child; and

(4) an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides).

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0

[going places]

I recently reached out and found support from an old friend.  He was understanding, and supportive, and validating and he took me out to give me a refreshing taste of what it feels like to be 'wooed'.  I really believe that there was no underlying intent to 'steal me away' or interfere with my r/s with my BPDh of ten years but simply a friendly nudge for my self esteem to make me feel cared for.   And I posted about it here.

This is all just my personal opinion.

IMHO, this is the makings for an affair.

I hope your old friend does not have a SO.

This is a very dangerous and hurtful thing to do.

I was warned by other members that perhaps I am treading on dangerous ground.  I am emotionally needy, this is definitely true.  My BPDh has a difficult time expressing any desire for me at all, so I do feel deprived of an emotional connection to someone.  No doubt about it.  Someone said this would make me emotionally vulnerable.  That makes sense.

But my question is this... .If one's emotional needs are not being met by their SO, does that mean that they need to be left unmet as long as you are with that SO?  :)o we not try reaching out to others to help us?  How do you keep yourself from falling for an emotional affair while still reaching out for support (other than not going to the opposite sex of course)?

If one's emotional need are not being met, break up, move out.

Sustain yourself, then find someone who is not in a relationship that is looking for a relationship, and start over.

Seeing a T, P or advocate for 'help' instead of a 'friend' keeps things more on the 'professional' level and less on the 'emotional' level; while you are getting 'help' for issues.

In my case, my actions seem to have helped.  My h has been much more attentive and has been trying a lot harder to be kind and supportive of me since then.  I can't specifically say that my afternoon with my friend is the cause of this change of heart - I have also made it clear that if things don't improve, I am prepared to leave.  But it still makes me wonder if it had an effect on his attitude.

I also thought a lot about this friendship I have with this man.  I think in a way I have always had an emotional connection with him.  I have often thought of him as a big brother, or a spiritual sounding board - someone who could look into my eyes and know what lives there in that moment.  He has always been that way, and will always be that way.

IMHO I would definitely spend some time with a professional working on less 'emotional' thinking and more 'logical' thinking. I know there are 'thinkers and feelers' but to swing to one or the other extreme can be dangerous.

Does that mean I have an unhealthy emotional attachment to this man?  There has never been and never will be anything sexual between us, I know this for a fact.  But... .what about the emotional attachment?  I don't feel anything sexual towards him, and he isn't the type of friend that you can just pick up the phone and call at any time, he's life is too full for that, so I only get to see him two, three times a year.   I don't miss him when I don't see him.  I pray for him, but I don't really long to be with him or anything.

Yes.

You and your dh need to do professional counseling together to strengthen your marriage and to work out any issues you two have between each other.

IMHO you are emotionally vunerable for an affair.

Has anyone else got any experience they can share in this area that may help me understand the difference between an unhealthy emotional connection with another individual and a healthy one?  Is there such a thing as a healthy emotional connection with someone other than your SO?  I know staying away from the opposite sex is the obvious answer, but sometimes we can't pick the gender of our friends, right?  

I'm looking for any and all insights you can offer.  

Thanks, c.

You can always pick the gender of your friends.

And yes, until you and your husband are solid in your relationship; I would not seek out / accidentally / or otherwise have a 'friendship' w another man.

For myself, I did not 'hug' other men. Lots of our friends, the men would 'hug' as a greeting.

I didn't hug. I extended my hand and shook hands.

1. because I felt it was disrespectful to my then husband

2. because I was so empty on the inside; because the only time my ex touched me is because he wanted sex... .

I did not want to hug another man because I knew what I was missing and I knew what the Word said about adultery; and I did not want to offend the Lord... .or be tempted.

Too bad my ex and his officemate / adulteress didn't have the same respect I had.

[formflier]

 I know staying away from the opposite sex is the obvious answer, but sometimes we can't pick the gender of our friends, right?  

I'm looking for any and all insights you can offer.  

Thanks, c.

You can always pick the gender of your friends.

And yes, until you and your husband are solid in your relationship; I would not seek out / accidentally / or otherwise have a 'friendship' w another man.[/quote]
[/quote]
I missed this first time around.  

You always have a choice... .nobody can "force" a r/s on you.  Choices are powerful things.  If you "can't" choose your friends... .you have given away lots of power.

[JohnLove]

going places, I agree and crumbling does concur that she is emotionally needy and potentially vulnerable to an emotional affair. I feel she has rightly or wrongly made an exception to this situation and even overstated her case. I feel we all agree this is dangerous territory. One slip can result in a fall.

Your next comment is sensible advice but for theapy to work the therapist and the patient require an emotional connection. The role of the therapist is often compromised when treating a pwBPD. Many won't touch them, some require the therapy to be overseen, others seek their own therapist from the gas lighting and manipulation... .and others still find themselves in an intimate and often sexual relationship with the patient. Google it. You will be ALARMED at just how common this is. I am not suggesting for one moment crumbling may have BPD.

Logical thinking is great... .especially when emotions are confused. I agree a balance must be achieved to achieve wisdom in your decision making.

Your comment on hugging is interesting. I feel it is a little too intimate unless it is family or someone with a strong (healthy) emotional connection and mutual understanding.

[Notwendy]

1)If I chose an emotionally unavailable person, that tells me that something about me chose that person[... .]

I read this argument more than once. I'm not sure if that's always the case. How could I know, back when we met, that my h was emotionally unavailable? He was very sweet and caring at the beginning of the relationship.

I was emotionally healthy as well.

I don't have a good answer to this, but I have seen this happen many times with friends and aquaintances. There are no perfect people out there, and we aren't either. Relationships will challenge us one way or another. My approach is that these challenges teach me something about me. If I leave one relationship without doing some work on myself to learn from that relationship, then it is possible I will attract and be attracted to a similar situation.

I think this is because who we attract and are attracted to is very complicated and not something we are aware of. Also, I think it is intimate relationships that show us where our own issues are because they are the most difficult, so we could be emotionally healthy and available in situations that don't require as much of us- such as when we start dating.

I think everyone is probably going to be stretched in an intimate relationship. It is how we respond to them that determines our emotional growth. Do we deal with our own stuff, deny, project, escape to someone else? (Some situations we really must leave if they are dangerously abusive- and we need to know to do that too. )

[formflier]

 

Usually... .if we get educated about disordered thinking... .and r/s... .and we get educated about our issues... .then we can look back and clearly see the dynamic that brought "us" together.

I now understand that I saw hints that things were amiss... .and I understand how those got kept at a low level for about 15 years of our marriage.  Then... toss in some extreme stress of natural disaster... .and 100% wrong responses from me (I invalidated, JADED... .did all that good stuff)... .and those responses went on for years... .a full blown dysfunctional r/s appeared.

Currently working on putting that r/s back to a better state.

[Crumbling]

If one's emotional need are not being met, break up, move out.

Sustain yourself, then find someone who is not in a relationship that is looking for a relationship, and start over.

Seeing a T, P or advocate for 'help' instead of a 'friend' keeps things more on the ' rofessional' level and less on the 'emotional' level; while you are getting 'help' for issues.

This is black and white thinking.  So, if the person you are married to cannot fulfil your emotional needs then get out?  We wouldn't need this site if it was that simple, because no one would have a pwBPD as a SO!  And besides, I thought this was the staying board?  

It's easy to say 'see a T'... .it's another thing in reality.  I don't have a T right now, so where does that leave me?  Talk to no one.  Suck it up princess?  I've done this and it has left me isolated and alone and wanting to live life with my head in the sand.

Are you suggesting this is a better option than sharing my feelings with an old trusted friend, because he's the same gender as my h?

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest. 

I have to be aware of my own feelings and the fact that we don't stop being able to notice that  someone is attractive or feel emotions just because we are married, however, we can choose to put boundaries around that- no one on one dates, talking about our relationship to others, no hugging people unless we know them well and feel it is OK, no long intimate talks on line.

I hear what you are saying here, Wen, but not that bolded part.  Most of us hide our pain from the rest of the world, and this is the heart of this whole issue... .suffer in silence or reach out?  I had the opportunity to share with someone that has known my h longer than me, and I took it.  And it helped.

I'm afraid we are going to paint the notion that it's better to suffer emotional loneliness than to reach out to someone who you are close with. 

I would never have suggested that my friend call my h and talk about this, but you asked what would have happened if H was there... .different scenario.  Nor did anyone suggest that he call H... .but he did say he wished he was there to 'give him an ear full.'  I see this as my friend holding my h responsible for his actions, like a AA sponsor would do.

ps - FYI, my landscape analogy had everything to do with the 15ft snowbanks surrounding my house, and wasn't meant to imply I think I'm perfect.  I was just being silly.  I AM NOT PERFECT.  I readily admit that, with all my heart. 

[Mutt]

Hi all     It is important that we stay in "forum" everyone. We need to respect the comments of others and we are not here reach or even attempt to reach consensus. It will help to read the following:

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[Notwendy]

Crumbling- I'll clarify that. I don't think it is healthy to hide our pain, but I think we need to be careful with who we share that information with. There are places- certainly to a therapist, 12 step groups, sponsors. However, we should be careful about bringing in a third person to the triangle- a close friend or family member who might feel forced to choose sides, someone who might be professionally damaging to our spouse, or a potential romantic partner. So, I would discuss my relationship with my sponsor but not a male friend, and I also chose a female as a sponsor to elimitate any possibility of physical attraction. ( that might be difficult if someone is bisexual, but I am heterosexual. If I were a lesbian I would have chosen a male sponsor. I'm most concerned about my own feelings and attraction, as it would be my own that would be the most difficult for me)

I know that we are not attracted to everyone we meet. There are plenty of men who I am not initially attracted to. In fact, most of them as I am more attracted to personality than intial appearance. However, I also know that for me, an emotional connection would make someone more attractive to me, so even if a friendship started with no attraction on my part, I have to be aware that this could possibly change over time.

I don't think it is good to be emotionally lonely, but I would rather deal with this in ways where I can have good boundaries in place than to deal with the hurt and emotional mess that could result from sharing my feelings with someone. Ultimately, I want to keep working on being able to be more emotionally connected to my spouse if that is possible and if not, then to share with people who would not cause harm to my marriage.

Mostly though, I want to be able to act according to my own value system and integrity. I truly believe that if I were to enter an affair, I would hurt myself the most. My boundaries protect me.

[Skip]

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest. 

This may be what you are hearing, but is this what is being said?

[Notwendy]

I'll repeat why I find these situations potentially dangerous:

"even if a friendship started with no attraction on my part, I have to be aware that this could possibly change over time"

I think most of them start out with doing nothing wrong. I have heard of numerous situations where a spouse runs off with the couple's "best friend" and the left behind spouse never saw it happening.

Having seen several friends and acquaintances go through a relationship breakdown, I've seen a lot of outcomes that I would not like to have- families split up, hurt, betrayal, kids caught up in the crossfire and having emotional/behavioral problems from it, and issues in the next relationship. Sure, there are some incidences where the second relationship may have been happier, but still, it was a devastating process to break up a family. It is not my place to tell anyone what to do as there are many consequences of that which are not my business.

[vortex of confusion]

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest. 

You have gotten a lot of input about things to think about and look at to assess your situation.

I do want to offer a word of caution about honesty. I am not quite sure how to explain it so I am going to fumble a bit and share part of my story.

I can be perfectly honest about something while still being deceptive (to myself and my partner). Some really crazy stuff has happened in my relationship and I have spent a lot of time justifying my behaviors and actions with "I have been nothing but honest." I had a lover. I had my husband's permission. I was honest about it. I didn't hide anything. Does the fact that I was completely open and honest about everything that I was doing change the fact that it detracted from my ability to be completely present and invested in my relationship? I spent a lot of time justifying my behaviors to myself by saying, "I am being totally honest with everyone." Honesty is great and wonderful. I hid in honesty to avoid dealing with what was really going on inside me. I am still trying to make sense of it all.

[formflier]

I'll repeat why I find these situations potentially dangerous:

And... .most of the stories I know of where friendships turned into emotional affairs... .and then emotional affairs turned into physical ones... .  Involved lines being crossed and the people involved where "blind" to it at the time... .or said "it just happened"

So... .at best... .this is a potentially explosive situation... .at worst it is an emotional affair that the participants are blind to at the moment.

Sometimes looking at things from what is the best outcome... .vs what is the worst can put things in a different light.  Or at least clarify some of the pitfalls.

[Grey Kitty]

Crumbling has explained a variety of reasons why she is certain that this friendship will not ever turn into a physical affair. It is *possible* for an emotional affair to slide into a physical affair, but A) that is not the premise of this topic, and B) it really doesn't sound likely in this situation.

These questions are more interesting... .

I would discuss my relationship with my sponsor but not a male friend, and I also chose a female as a sponsor to elimitate any possibility of physical attraction. ( that might be difficult if someone is bisexual, but I am heterosexual. If I were a lesbian I would have chosen a male sponsor. I'm most concerned about my own feelings and attraction, as it would be my own that would be the most difficult for me)

What if I feel emotionally connected to another man?  Is that an emotional affair?  Since I am not gay or bi, there is no desire for sex, but there is a desire for emotional closeness.  Now what about my wife and her female friends?  She wants emotional closeness there, as two women often do.  But she HAS had same sex relationships in the past. 

She is really close to a female friend of hers who is also bisexual.  As far as I know, nothing has ever gone on between the two of them.  But is that an emotional affair?

First off, I don't believe that sexual attraction is absolutely required for an emotional affair, although it is very common. While it seems possible to have one with a person of the gender you aren't attracted to, I cannot think of any specific instances.

Second, I don't think that sexual attraction (outside your marriage) alone makes a friendship into an emotional affair. It sure does increase the risk!

You *can* set very firm boundaries on yourself... .Like the orthadox Jews who will not hold hands with or be alone with a woman other than their wife, or choosing a sponsor of the gender you are not attracted to... .If you feel you need that protection for yourself, please take it.

I think the most important question is whether this relationship is healthy for you, and healthy for your marriage or not. And the really tough question... .if you did stray into inappropriate areas already, can you back out and normalize it? It is hard work, but is possible!

And I just thought of another test that came up earlier in the topic. Triangulation with your friend and your spouse is a huge    that you need to be really careful! In the case with a troubled marriage to a pwBPD, you certainly do have concerns about your husband and your marriage, and do need to share them with people. This board here is very safe; we try very hard to stay out of the triangulation zone. Some friends are very wise, skillful people who are very good at keeping out of that area while supporting you. Others are unaware of the risks and will be really surprised when they notice that somehow they ended up in some very uncomfortable landscape. Choose carefully.

[Crumbling]

I didn't mean to blast you, Going Places.  I was shocked by the advice, that's all.  

Thanks for the reminder, Mutt.  

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest.  

This may be what you are hearing, but is this what is being said?

 

Well, no, I should have said 'one thing I'm hearing is... .'  But okay, let's sum it up, then, Skip.  What is being said?

Here's my full take:

There is a fine line between an emotional affair and a friendship that offers emotional support.  

An emotional affair can get between you and your SO in a very destructive way and is not something that can be easily overcome, if ever, once it begins.  Avoid at all costs.

Friendships that make you feel emotionally supported are important, but precautions must be taken when an element of attraction can come into play.  It takes emotionally healthy people with solid boundaries to be able keep an emotionally supportive friendship away from becoming an affair.  This must include openness and honesty.  

I was totally muddled around the difference between these two when I started the thread... .now, I think I'm getting it.

[DreamGirl]

Locked for continued guideline violation, after a posted mod note.