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Author Topic: Emotional Affairs - Helpful or Hurtful?  (Read 597 times)
Grey Kitty
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« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2015, 11:42:21 PM »

I also am guessing that you didn't go home and say "Hubs, you know I'm feeling pretty weird after my lunch with Mr. Friend. I felt a certain closeness to him that I'm used to feeling with you. I don't like it and I don't plan on ever having lunch with him again. I think it's a sign that we need to work on being closer."  

I had to stop reading at this paragraph... .we just had this conversation!  Sort of.  I asked my h if he was jealous of friend.  We discussed, and he said he wasn't, not in that way.  Then he asked if he should be.  I said of course not, and that his instinct was right that I would never go there... .intentionally.  But that it scared me how good it felt, and how it filled me, and how I didn't want to be getting that feeling from other men.

Wow indeed.

First, DreamGirl's version is one where you open with the vulnerable statement. Given that her H is not a pwBPD, this probably seems a lot safer to her than it would to you. Doing something like that is really hard. Good for you for getting there when you did!

Second... .the part I put in bold... .that is the area of "You know it when you see it" about an emotional affair. It does feel seductive and good... .but not in a way that is healthy for your marriage.

And thirdly... .the approach of "I don't plan on ever having lunch with him again." That is one very clean and safe path to take. It *is* possible to be very scrupulous about cleaning up the friendship and making it safe for your marriage. It is also very hard work, and requires you to be brutally honest with yourself when you catch yourself trying to slide toward the dangerous territory. And make sure you discuss it with your friend, and that he's working with you to stay in safe territory. You may feel that this old friendship is worth that extra effort.
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« Reply #31 on: February 21, 2015, 04:58:02 AM »

My perspective is that this "friend" is both their friends and if he had spoken to her husband or even treated him differently after the discussions then that sounds like classic case of TRIANGULATION. Which falls under the definition of abuse in an intimate relationship.

Small point.  Triangulation is not abuse, it is a natural family dynamic.

It can be the source of drama, or polarizing fights - it can be a stabilizing force too.

According to Bowen, these three part relationships (triangles) have at least four possible outcomes which are as follows - 2 are good and 2 are bad:

(1) A stable pair can become destabilized by a third person;

(2) a stable pair can also be destabilized by the removal of the third person (an example would be a child leaving home and no longer available for triangulation);

(3) an unstable pair can be stabilized by the addition of a third person (an example would be a conflictual marriage becoming more harmonious after the birth of a child; and

(4) an unstable pair being stabilized by the removal of a third person (an example would be conflict is reduced by the removal of a third person who takes sides).

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=121673.0
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going places
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« Reply #32 on: February 21, 2015, 06:42:42 AM »

I recently reached out and found support from an old friend.  He was understanding, and supportive, and validating and he took me out to give me a refreshing taste of what it feels like to be 'wooed'.  I really believe that there was no underlying intent to 'steal me away' or interfere with my r/s with my BPDh of ten years but simply a friendly nudge for my self esteem to make me feel cared for.   And I posted about it here.

This is all just my personal opinion.

IMHO, this is the makings for an affair.

I hope your old friend does not have a SO.

This is a very dangerous and hurtful thing to do.

Excerpt
I was warned by other members that perhaps I am treading on dangerous ground.  I am emotionally needy, this is definitely true.  My BPDh has a difficult time expressing any desire for me at all, so I do feel deprived of an emotional connection to someone.  No doubt about it.  Someone said this would make me emotionally vulnerable.  That makes sense.

But my question is this... .If one's emotional needs are not being met by their SO, does that mean that they need to be left unmet as long as you are with that SO?  :)o we not try reaching out to others to help us?  How do you keep yourself from falling for an emotional affair while still reaching out for support (other than not going to the opposite sex of course)?

If one's emotional need are not being met, break up, move out.

Sustain yourself, then find someone who is not in a relationship that is looking for a relationship, and start over.

Seeing a T, P or advocate for 'help' instead of a 'friend' keeps things more on the 'professional' level and less on the 'emotional' level; while you are getting 'help' for issues.

Excerpt
In my case, my actions seem to have helped.  My h has been much more attentive and has been trying a lot harder to be kind and supportive of me since then.  I can't specifically say that my afternoon with my friend is the cause of this change of heart - I have also made it clear that if things don't improve, I am prepared to leave.  But it still makes me wonder if it had an effect on his attitude.

I also thought a lot about this friendship I have with this man.  I think in a way I have always had an emotional connection with him.  I have often thought of him as a big brother, or a spiritual sounding board - someone who could look into my eyes and know what lives there in that moment.  He has always been that way, and will always be that way.

IMHO I would definitely spend some time with a professional working on less 'emotional' thinking and more 'logical' thinking. I know there are 'thinkers and feelers' but to swing to one or the other extreme can be dangerous.

Excerpt
Does that mean I have an unhealthy emotional attachment to this man?  There has never been and never will be anything sexual between us, I know this for a fact.  But... .what about the emotional attachment?  I don't feel anything sexual towards him, and he isn't the type of friend that you can just pick up the phone and call at any time, he's life is too full for that, so I only get to see him two, three times a year.   I don't miss him when I don't see him.  I pray for him, but I don't really long to be with him or anything.

Yes.

You and your dh need to do professional counseling together to strengthen your marriage and to work out any issues you two have between each other.

IMHO you are emotionally vunerable for an affair.

Excerpt
Has anyone else got any experience they can share in this area that may help me understand the difference between an unhealthy emotional connection with another individual and a healthy one?  Is there such a thing as a healthy emotional connection with someone other than your SO?  I know staying away from the opposite sex is the obvious answer, but sometimes we can't pick the gender of our friends, right?  

I'm looking for any and all insights you can offer.  

Thanks, c.

You can always pick the gender of your friends.

And yes, until you and your husband are solid in your relationship; I would not seek out / accidentally / or otherwise have a 'friendship' w another man.

For myself, I did not 'hug' other men. Lots of our friends, the men would 'hug' as a greeting.

I didn't hug. I extended my hand and shook hands.

1. because I felt it was disrespectful to my then husband

2. because I was so empty on the inside; because the only time my ex touched me is because he wanted sex... .

I did not want to hug another man because I knew what I was missing and I knew what the Word said about adultery; and I did not want to offend the Lord... .or be tempted.

Too bad my ex and his officemate / adulteress didn't have the same respect I had.
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« Reply #33 on: February 21, 2015, 06:51:22 AM »

 I know staying away from the opposite sex is the obvious answer, but sometimes we can't pick the gender of our friends, right?  

I'm looking for any and all insights you can offer.  

Thanks, c.

You can always pick the gender of your friends.

And yes, until you and your husband are solid in your relationship; I would not seek out / accidentally / or otherwise have a 'friendship' w another man.[/quote]
[/quote]
I missed this first time around.  

You always have a choice... .nobody can "force" a r/s on you.  Choices are powerful things.  If you "can't" choose your friends... .you have given away lots of power.

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« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2015, 07:58:47 AM »

going places, I agree and crumbling does concur that she is emotionally needy and potentially vulnerable to an emotional affair. I feel she has rightly or wrongly made an exception to this situation and even overstated her case. I feel we all agree this is dangerous territory. One slip can result in a fall.

Your next comment is sensible advice but for theapy to work the therapist and the patient require an emotional connection. The role of the therapist is often compromised when treating a pwBPD. Many won't touch them, some require the therapy to be overseen, others seek their own therapist from the gas lighting and manipulation... .and others still find themselves in an intimate and often sexual relationship with the patient. Google it. You will be ALARMED at just how common this is. I am not suggesting for one moment crumbling may have BPD.

Logical thinking is great... .especially when emotions are confused. I agree a balance must be achieved to achieve wisdom in your decision making.

Your comment on hugging is interesting. I feel it is a little too intimate unless it is family or someone with a strong (healthy) emotional connection and mutual understanding.

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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2015, 08:02:53 AM »

1)If I chose an emotionally unavailable person, that tells me that something about me chose that person[... .]

I read this argument more than once. I'm not sure if that's always the case. How could I know, back when we met, that my h was emotionally unavailable? He was very sweet and caring at the beginning of the relationship.

I was emotionally healthy as well.

I don't have a good answer to this, but I have seen this happen many times with friends and aquaintances. There are no perfect people out there, and we aren't either. Relationships will challenge us one way or another. My approach is that these challenges teach me something about me. If I leave one relationship without doing some work on myself to learn from that relationship, then it is possible I will attract and be attracted to a similar situation.

I think this is because who we attract and are attracted to is very complicated and not something we are aware of. Also, I think it is intimate relationships that show us where our own issues are because they are the most difficult, so we could be emotionally healthy and available in situations that don't require as much of us- such as when we start dating.

I think everyone is probably going to be stretched in an intimate relationship. It is how we respond to them that determines our emotional growth. Do we deal with our own stuff, deny, project, escape to someone else? (Some situations we really must leave if they are dangerously abusive- and we need to know to do that too. )
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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2015, 08:09:26 AM »

 

Usually... .if we get educated about disordered thinking... .and r/s... .and we get educated about our issues... .then we can look back and clearly see the dynamic that brought "us" together.

I now understand that I saw hints that things were amiss... .and I understand how those got kept at a low level for about 15 years of our marriage.  Then... toss in some extreme stress of natural disaster... .and 100% wrong responses from me (I invalidated, JADED... .did all that good stuff)... .and those responses went on for years... .a full blown dysfunctional r/s appeared.

Currently working on putting that r/s back to a better state.

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Crumbling
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« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2015, 09:47:44 AM »

If one's emotional need are not being met, break up, move out.

Sustain yourself, then find someone who is not in a relationship that is looking for a relationship, and start over.

Seeing a T, P or advocate for 'help' instead of a 'friend' keeps things more on the ' rofessional' level and less on the 'emotional' level; while you are getting 'help' for issues.

This is black and white thinking.  So, if the person you are married to cannot fulfil your emotional needs then get out?  We wouldn't need this site if it was that simple, because no one would have a pwBPD as a SO!  And besides, I thought this was the staying board?  

It's easy to say 'see a T'... .it's another thing in reality.  I don't have a T right now, so where does that leave me?  Talk to no one.  Suck it up princess?  I've done this and it has left me isolated and alone and wanting to live life with my head in the sand.

Are you suggesting this is a better option than sharing my feelings with an old trusted friend, because he's the same gender as my h?

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest. 

I have to be aware of my own feelings and the fact that we don't stop being able to notice that  someone is attractive or feel emotions just because we are married, however, we can choose to put boundaries around that- no one on one dates, talking about our relationship to others, no hugging people unless we know them well and feel it is OK, no long intimate talks on line.

I hear what you are saying here, Wen, but not that bolded part.  Most of us hide our pain from the rest of the world, and this is the heart of this whole issue... .suffer in silence or reach out?  I had the opportunity to share with someone that has known my h longer than me, and I took it.  And it helped.

I'm afraid we are going to paint the notion that it's better to suffer emotional loneliness than to reach out to someone who you are close with. 

I would never have suggested that my friend call my h and talk about this, but you asked what would have happened if H was there... .different scenario.  Nor did anyone suggest that he call H... .but he did say he wished he was there to 'give him an ear full.'  I see this as my friend holding my h responsible for his actions, like a AA sponsor would do.

ps - FYI, my landscape analogy had everything to do with the 15ft snowbanks surrounding my house, and wasn't meant to imply I think I'm perfect.  I was just being silly.  I AM NOT PERFECT.  I readily admit that, with all my heart. 
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« Reply #38 on: February 21, 2015, 10:01:35 AM »

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« Reply #39 on: February 21, 2015, 10:18:10 AM »

Crumbling- I'll clarify that. I don't think it is healthy to hide our pain, but I think we need to be careful with who we share that information with. There are places- certainly to a therapist, 12 step groups, sponsors. However, we should be careful about bringing in a third person to the triangle- a close friend or family member who might feel forced to choose sides, someone who might be professionally damaging to our spouse, or a potential romantic partner. So, I would discuss my relationship with my sponsor but not a male friend, and I also chose a female as a sponsor to elimitate any possibility of physical attraction. ( that might be difficult if someone is bisexual, but I am heterosexual. If I were a lesbian I would have chosen a male sponsor. I'm most concerned about my own feelings and attraction, as it would be my own that would be the most difficult for me)

I know that we are not attracted to everyone we meet. There are plenty of men who I am not initially attracted to. In fact, most of them as I am more attracted to personality than intial appearance. However, I also know that for me, an emotional connection would make someone more attractive to me, so even if a friendship started with no attraction on my part, I have to be aware that this could possibly change over time.

I don't think it is good to be emotionally lonely, but I would rather deal with this in ways where I can have good boundaries in place than to deal with the hurt and emotional mess that could result from sharing my feelings with someone. Ultimately, I want to keep working on being able to be more emotionally connected to my spouse if that is possible and if not, then to share with people who would not cause harm to my marriage.

Mostly though, I want to be able to act according to my own value system and integrity. I truly believe that if I were to enter an affair, I would hurt myself the most. My boundaries protect me.
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« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2015, 10:36:59 AM »

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest. 

This may be what you are hearing, but is this what is being said?

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« Reply #41 on: February 21, 2015, 11:13:34 AM »

I'll repeat why I find these situations potentially dangerous:

"even if a friendship started with no attraction on my part, I have to be aware that this could possibly change over time"

I think most of them start out with doing nothing wrong. I have heard of numerous situations where a spouse runs off with the couple's "best friend" and the left behind spouse never saw it happening.

Having seen several friends and acquaintances go through a relationship breakdown, I've seen a lot of outcomes that I would not like to have- families split up, hurt, betrayal, kids caught up in the crossfire and having emotional/behavioral problems from it, and issues in the next relationship. Sure, there are some incidences where the second relationship may have been happier, but still, it was a devastating process to break up a family. It is not my place to tell anyone what to do as there are many consequences of that which are not my business.


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« Reply #42 on: February 21, 2015, 11:22:24 AM »

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest. 

You have gotten a lot of input about things to think about and look at to assess your situation.

I do want to offer a word of caution about honesty. I am not quite sure how to explain it so I am going to fumble a bit and share part of my story.

I can be perfectly honest about something while still being deceptive (to myself and my partner). Some really crazy stuff has happened in my relationship and I have spent a lot of time justifying my behaviors and actions with "I have been nothing but honest." I had a lover. I had my husband's permission. I was honest about it. I didn't hide anything. Does the fact that I was completely open and honest about everything that I was doing change the fact that it detracted from my ability to be completely present and invested in my relationship? I spent a lot of time justifying my behaviors to myself by saying, "I am being totally honest with everyone." Honesty is great and wonderful. I hid in honesty to avoid dealing with what was really going on inside me. I am still trying to make sense of it all.
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« Reply #43 on: February 21, 2015, 11:26:10 AM »

I'll repeat why I find these situations potentially dangerous:

And... .most of the stories I know of where friendships turned into emotional affairs... .and then emotional affairs turned into physical ones... .  Involved lines being crossed and the people involved where "blind" to it at the time... .or said "it just happened"

So... .at best... .this is a potentially explosive situation... .at worst it is an emotional affair that the participants are blind to at the moment.

Sometimes looking at things from what is the best outcome... .vs what is the worst can put things in a different light.  Or at least clarify some of the pitfalls.

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« Reply #44 on: February 21, 2015, 12:03:59 PM »

Crumbling has explained a variety of reasons why she is certain that this friendship will not ever turn into a physical affair. It is *possible* for an emotional affair to slide into a physical affair, but A) that is not the premise of this topic, and B) it really doesn't sound likely in this situation.

These questions are more interesting... .

I would discuss my relationship with my sponsor but not a male friend, and I also chose a female as a sponsor to elimitate any possibility of physical attraction. ( that might be difficult if someone is bisexual, but I am heterosexual. If I were a lesbian I would have chosen a male sponsor. I'm most concerned about my own feelings and attraction, as it would be my own that would be the most difficult for me)

What if I feel emotionally connected to another man?  Is that an emotional affair?  Since I am not gay or bi, there is no desire for sex, but there is a desire for emotional closeness.  Now what about my wife and her female friends?  She wants emotional closeness there, as two women often do.  But she HAS had same sex relationships in the past. 

She is really close to a female friend of hers who is also bisexual.  As far as I know, nothing has ever gone on between the two of them.  But is that an emotional affair?

First off, I don't believe that sexual attraction is absolutely required for an emotional affair, although it is very common. While it seems possible to have one with a person of the gender you aren't attracted to, I cannot think of any specific instances.

Second, I don't think that sexual attraction (outside your marriage) alone makes a friendship into an emotional affair. It sure does increase the risk!

You *can* set very firm boundaries on yourself... .Like the orthadox Jews who will not hold hands with or be alone with a woman other than their wife, or choosing a sponsor of the gender you are not attracted to... .If you feel you need that protection for yourself, please take it.

I think the most important question is whether this relationship is healthy for you, and healthy for your marriage or not. And the really tough question... .if you did stray into inappropriate areas already, can you back out and normalize it? It is hard work, but is possible!

And I just thought of another test that came up earlier in the topic. Triangulation with your friend and your spouse is a huge    that you need to be really careful! In the case with a troubled marriage to a pwBPD, you certainly do have concerns about your husband and your marriage, and do need to share them with people. This board here is very safe; we try very hard to stay out of the triangulation zone. Some friends are very wise, skillful people who are very good at keeping out of that area while supporting you. Others are unaware of the risks and will be really surprised when they notice that somehow they ended up in some very uncomfortable landscape. Choose carefully.

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« Reply #45 on: February 21, 2015, 12:04:45 PM »

I didn't mean to blast you, Going Places.  I was shocked by the advice, that's all.  

Thanks for the reminder, Mutt.  

What I'm hearing is that a key element/distinction is the level of honesty involved, with all parties and I have been nothing but honest.  

This may be what you are hearing, but is this what is being said?

 

Well, no, I should have said 'one thing I'm hearing is... .'  But okay, let's sum it up, then, Skip.  What is being said?

Here's my full take:

There is a fine line between an emotional affair and a friendship that offers emotional support.  

An emotional affair can get between you and your SO in a very destructive way and is not something that can be easily overcome, if ever, once it begins.  Avoid at all costs.

Friendships that make you feel emotionally supported are important, but precautions must be taken when an element of attraction can come into play.  It takes emotionally healthy people with solid boundaries to be able keep an emotionally supportive friendship away from becoming an affair.  This must include openness and honesty.  

I was totally muddled around the difference between these two when I started the thread... .now, I think I'm getting it.
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« Reply #46 on: February 21, 2015, 12:19:26 PM »

Staff only

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