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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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TryingSoHardInPA

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« on: February 19, 2015, 07:09:24 PM »

Hi,

I have spent the past 6 years getting out of a marriage with a severe BPD man, and I've done it, I have sole legal and physical custody of our 6 year old daughter and I recently relocated for work, so live 2.5 hours away from him.  But, he continues to ruin most of my days.  I am supporting him financially, under the divorce agreement, he spends all of the money I give him immediately and by the 15th of each month needs more, which would be of no concern to me except for the "our daughter won't eat" if you don't send money.  He screams at me constantly, 100 texts a day, fills up my voicemail every time I delete the messages he left before, and constantly verbally abuses and cyber harasses me.  He yells at our daughter, telling her that I am evil, a scumbag, and that I "violated " her by engaging in child pornography when she was 6 months old.  He tells my daughter that I ruined our family by divorcing him and not giving her a sibling.  He has called my boss and told him that I am a child pornographer, as well as the police (who believe he is nuts), and the FBI.  He tells my daughter not only I violated her, but also that my mother molested her, all lies and fabrications.  He has no friends, no relationships with family, no job, and nothing to do but harass me and tell my daughter that I'm "going to jail" and that she will be living with him soon.  She doesn't even flinch or react at this point, she is not phased by his rants.  I tell her that his behavior is not acceptable, we don't yell and call people names, accuse people of fake things, etc.  He is banned for her school--not allowed on the property--for yelling, making racial remarks, and verbally abusing the head of school.  I block his phone and only allow FaceTime when he doesn't yell, and when I cut it off when he curses me out to her, he flips out and makes it worse. He tells her that he will beat up and hurt any boyfriend I ever have ( I have none and have no interest I that, I have a busy job and spend every other minute with my little girl, but maybe someday).

I don't know what to do.  I can probably go back to court and get all visitation supervised based on all of this, but that will not deter him.  Maybe I could get a restraining order?  He will show up anyway, and I will have to call the police every single day because he will be at my house every day.  Is that worse than having to deal with him 3-4 times a month and have my daughter exposed to him?  Which is worse for my daughter?  Watching me call the police on her father every day, which will undoubtedly happen, or letting her see him and limiting any time it am around (he doesn't do this when I'm not around, he may disparage me, but lot like when I'm in the room, when he is screaming obscenities at me in front of her)?  I don't know what to do, I really want to move across the country and hide, but that is of course not feasible.

Appreciate anyone's thoughts, many thanks in advance... .
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2015, 07:21:37 PM »

Hi TryingSoHardinPA,

That's a lot of conflict to experience for both you and D6. Are you doing ok, getting support from people? It sounds like he is his own worst enemy. Some BPD sufferers seem able to high-function their way through life, at least partly. Your ex doesn't appear able to do that, which is hard on you, and hard on your daughter.

What kind of visitation does he have? It sounds like D6 spends overnights with him?

My ex was difficult in a different way, but equally persistent. Eventually, the judge terminated visitation and N/BPDx is now legally and officially out of S13's life. In a weird way, I think that's what he was going for. He didn't behave like a father who wanted to be in his child's life, but he sure fought hard to make it look that way.

You must feel as though you are constantly cleaning up the messes he makes, like calling your boss, the police, the FBI. That must make it hard to find any peace.

How is your D doing?

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momtara
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« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2015, 07:23:13 PM »

Sorry to hear about all of this.  When did you first realize he had BPD?  WHat did he do to lose custody?  Must have been pretty bad.

My ex is a man with BPD too.  They are a little different to deal with than the women.

Even if you tell your daughter right from wrong, these kinds of rants could affect her emotionally, in my non medical point of view.    

What kind of visitation does he have, meaning, how often and how long?

It sounds like you are doing what I do often - not doing anything legally because you fear the result will make things worse.  However, in your case, it seems like there are things you can do.

Just saw that LivedandLearned posted while I was finishing this.  She is very wise.

For one, document.  Obviously the texts, record the calls, etc.

Two, start taking your daughter to a therapist.  She can help you both navigate this, and also can testify in court.  An expert definitely helps in these cases.  She can listen to the rants.

Three, definitely consider strategy. Do you think he could flip out and hurt her, or is this all bark and no bite?  Obviously if you think she's in immediate danger, get a restraining order or an emergency ex parte order (different in different states) to suspend visitation pending a psych and custody eval, at his expense.

IF she's not in immediate danger, and you can put up with it a little longer, build a case and then decide what you want out of visitation.  Unfortunately, courts are reluctant to end all visitation even with mentally ill people, but you never know.  Supervised may work and it may actually deter him from bothering, if he has to pay for the supervisor.

You won't have to call the cops on your ex every day if they finally arrest him for harassing you.  I have been very scared at times to set boundaries, only to be surprised that they work.

That said, if you are concerned that court may make him even worse, or supervised visitation could set him off and put your daughter in danger, then you may be able to try something else - send him a lawyer letter saying that if he doesn't stick to one call a week, you will go to court?  Or just telling him to cease, without a threat?  Get a court order for co-parent counseling and have the counselor tell him to stop?  

I feel your pain.  It is very hard to have to share a child with a mentally ill person.  Tell more of the story and you will get lots of good help here.
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TryingSoHardInPA

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« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2015, 07:42:14 PM »

Thank you both... .DD is doing great, she is happy and when he is not around she is well adjusted and living school, her new friends, etc.  when he is around, she hides in her playroom when he's yelling and I eventually go back at hi after hearing it for hours, even thought I know it's wrong,  I think I'm afraid to go back to court because it will make him and the situation worse by escalating it. I think he is all bark and no bite, although he is 6' 6" tall and very intimidating. I should get her to a therapist, there is one at her school and, after exH called the school and made them take down a video of her on their internal intranet site about what she was thankful for at Thanksgiving, she was really mad and told her teacher that her dad is mean to her mother and to her and that she wanted to talk to Dr. X (the therapist), who she knows.  Not sure why the school listened to someone with no custody, but that's another story and I'm sure they were scared and didn't know what to do.
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TryingSoHardInPA

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« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2015, 07:44:48 PM »

One more thing, I think my exH might also WANT me to go through with removing unsupervised visits, he says he'd never show up to supervised and says, "fine, I'll see her when she is 18, you &$@/$&".   Makes me wonder.
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momtara
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« Reply #5 on: February 20, 2015, 10:17:53 AM »

Exactly.  If secretly, he might give up if you get supervised visits, that's something to consider.  Do you think he's sending you signals that he can't handle her?

Yeah, the school was probably scared.  I think it's good that your daughter understands he's a nut, but it also might make her shut down parts of herself emotionally to deal with it - she sounds pretty mature, so who knows.  I doubt a school psych would testify in court voluntarily, but they could be subpoenaed.  You might get someone out of school to see both of you, too.
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momtara
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« Reply #6 on: February 20, 2015, 10:39:20 AM »



Maybe you can answer this question: Ideally, what kind of visitation would be best for her? Occasional supervised? None?

I think you have to answer what, ultimately, you think would be best for her.  If something affects your parenting, that makes you a less effective parent, too, although the courts want to hear it phrased as how it affects her.  I think the answer is not always easy, but you might want to think about ideally what you'd want. 
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livednlearned
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« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2015, 10:46:08 AM »

My ex did most of his fighting in the courts. We've had over 60 filings in 4 years  

But he did something similar. After N/BPDx continued to send abusive texts to our son (alleging that I was dating a pedophile), the judge said visitation could resume, but no more abusive texts or else. But then N/BPDx showed up in court and insisted that he had been denied visitation. To the judge.  

So the judge is telling him he did have visitation, and N/BPDx said no he didn't.

Um.

My lawyer said, "It can't be explained, it can't be understood, just accept that he is denying himself visitation."

It's like he wanted to be prevented from seeing S13, but wanted someone else to order it. And when the judge didn't do that, N/BPDx made it up in his head that the judge did.

I think somewhere deep in N/BPDx's heart and head, he knows that he is a very ill man, and he knows that his behavior is hurtful and abusive, but he can't for the life of himself stop what he does. He doesn't understand himself, and has no way to pull himself to a safer healthier place. He's too deep in substance abuse and has too many mental health issues.

So he protects his loved one (S13) in the only way he knows how, which is to make it seem like it's everyone else's fault that he can't have a relationship with him.

It's the saddest, most heartbreaking thing. Some days I can barely breathe when the sadness hits, it just comes out of nowhere, not even connected to anything that's happened.

My son's father is no longer in his life, and it's much easier, but we still have a ways to go. The fact that your D experiences the abuse that she does, but seems to soldier on -- that could be a sign she has learned to stuff her feelings. These behaviors are shocking that our kids see, and they can be traumatizing. It's better for them if they process the sadness and grief, otherwise they will have troubles later in life when they go to choose their own mates. We tend to pick partners who jiggle our core wounds, and for those of us that have mental illness in the family, that can mean picking abusive partners. The cycle continues.



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momtara
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« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2015, 10:52:54 AM »

Supervised visitation tends to have an implied plan for going back to unsupervised someday, if the person is not a true danger and IF the person really wants to get back off of it.  You could get him on supervised for a while, until he gets the proper counseling, changes his behavior, and convinces a court to get off.  IF he's willing to fight to see your daughter, then he will fight.   If he can't handle it, he may not fight so hard.  All of this has its risks, as does everything about court.  I'm pretty court-shy, but at least now I understand it much better.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2015, 11:45:04 AM »

IF he's willing to fight to see your daughter, then he will fight.  

Your ex sounds very volatile. It's hard to imagine that he would do any court-mandated anger management, or counseling. More than likely, he would not comply. He might even fail to show up for supervised visitation out of spite or anger that he is being controlled.

The only reason he might fight is fear that he would lose child support.
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TryingSoHardInPA

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« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2015, 07:22:45 PM »

Thanks so much.  Livednlearn, you are so right, it sounds like you been through the same things, thank you so much for your insight.  Do you think I should get D6 into counseling?   Will the counselor share with me what she says?  Would she go alone (I assume)?  I have seen a therapist for a few years, but honestly she was more like friend and less like a tough love, making suggestions, etc kind of advisor.  I am very worried about her, and I do think she disassociates things, pushes them out. She is mature, and happy, but I know this has to be affecting her.  He starts screaming at me even during FaceTime, when I'm a room away, that he can't wait until she is old enough to get away from me. 

Thank you again.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2015, 08:19:28 PM »

I honestly feel like our kids need counseling. Almost like it's not an option. It's so challenging, so confusing to have a BPD parent. And those of us who pick these partners, we tend to be a bit disconnected from our feelings, at least at the beginning of our healing. So the kids have a stable parent in us, but until we've worked through some of our own emotional stuff, it's hard to fully guide our kids. And you have legal custody, so you can do this without the terrible heartache of a BPD parent working at cross-purposes, trying to obstruct and insert himself into the therapy, making a big mess of it.

A child psychologist will do play therapy with D6. It's pretty amazing, actually. Your D6 may play with dolls, or some other kind of play, which is how kids work out the relationships going on around them. You can set up the therapy the way you think is best. I started S13's therapy when I had joint legal custody, and it was important to me that the therapist work with S13 (9 at the time), so she kept things confidential unless she thought there was something important I should know. After I got legal custody, the confidentiality part stuck, but I would talk to the therapist about what was going, so it was mostly me telling her what was going on, and not so much vice versa.

S13 is now seeing someone new. He sort of aged out and we felt it was a good idea for him to see a male therapist/psychiatrist. We just started about a month ago and it has been excellent. They hit it off immediately.

I don't know if others have experienced this, but I'm noticing that the really good therapists don't take insurance. I'm not in a big city, but not in a small town either (lots of universities in my area). They'll give you a diagnostic code so you can file, but they don't do it for you. I also noticed with child psychologists that there is often a 2-3 month wait list to see the really good ones.

My pediatrician recommended the guy my son is seeing and she said he is one of the best in our area.

One thing I also learned. There are three "waves" of therapy. The first wave was Freudian. The second was Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. The third is what some refer to as metacognitive therapy and the way it was explained to me is thinking about how we think more than what we think. There are a lot of "mindfulness" influences that help us think of thoughts like clouds crossing cross the big sky of our minds. That can be very helpful for kids who struggle with anxiety and depression. In my son, depression is like anger turned inward, and it has been building for a long time.

If you help your D with this young, she might get such a good foundation in her childhood that she doesn't have so much trouble in adolescence.

You're doing a lot for your D, I know it was hard to get where you are. Keep doing what you're doing! And take care of yourself. It has such a big impact on the kids. I can't get over how much my son has absorbed my lessons. 

LnL

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momtara
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« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2015, 09:48:40 AM »

I don't see a downside to therapy.  Even if D6 handles things well, it is a lot for a kid to shoulder and bundle up inside.  Many people here want their kids to go to therapy and they have joint legal with their exes and have to get permission and it takes them a lot of time to get there.  Since you don't have to get permission, you have more leeway in finding someone you're comfortable with.  You could also do family therapy a few times together with her, but from what LnL says it sounds like individual therapy might be really good for her. 

It also has the benefit of having someone who can testify if it ever comes to that, and experts go a long way in court.  Otherwise it sometimes becomes he said, she said.  After years of him doing this stuff, you don't want to get to court and realize you have no proof at all.  Maybe he needs less or supervised visitation until she's older.  Doesn't have to be forever.

I think you should video the Facetime calls and document everything.  There are sometimes laws about taping calls, but if he makes a threat it could supersede it, and you could also show the tape to a custody evaluator... .or you can tape yourself and just 'happen' to get the call in the background.  You'd only use it if you really needed it, so don't feel bad about doing it if necessary.

I don't want you to regret not having it easily documented later if suddenly a situation comes up when you need to prove all this in court.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2015, 10:30:17 AM »

It also has the benefit of having someone who can testify if it ever comes to that, and experts go a long way in court. 

I think you need to make a decision about whether therapy is going to be for D6, or whether it is going to be for court. Many therapists don't want to get pulled into testifying, and they'll ask you to sign a waiver. They want to be able to work with your child for the sake of their psychological well-being, and have confidentiality.

If you want a psychologist who will testify, it may be best to ask that up front, or find a forensic psychologist.
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momtara
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« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2015, 11:33:28 AM »

A good point.  I don't think it's wise to go in with the hope of using this person as an expert, but I wouldn't want to use anyone who would make you sign something saying they could never testify.  There may be a time this person is needed, even if by subpoena.
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momtara
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« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2015, 12:44:36 PM »

To clarify what I said, I think you should find someone who might eventually serve in both ways, although primarily they're there to help your daughter. But if there was ever a need, you'd want to have her do that. Otherwise you may not get what is in her best interest. So just don't sign anything saying you never will ask her to testify. I think if you had to subpoena her, you could.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2015, 01:02:30 PM »

I would look for a therapist whose sole mission is to help your D6. Period. Let that be the focus and priority. I'm looking at it from a different perspective than momtara probably because our kids are different ages and we're in different stages of custody. My son is 13, and when he was 8 and 9, he really needed a therapeutic intervention. The toll of the early years starts to really manifest when they hit 8 and peer relationships become much more important.

So he needed someone who could help him. I was in the middle of high-conflict custody stuff in the courts, and the therapist didn't want to get pulled into court to testify, so she asked me to sign a waiver and I did. S needed someone right then and there, and someone good. I knew there were other ways to document the challenges going on.

You can always have someone talk to the therapist, like a third-party who is willing to do an psych eval on your D6 and present that to the court. The evaluator can talk to the therapist and include her comments as part of the report. Also, my experience is that child psychologists, unless they are trained in forensics, are very averse to commit much in print. They don't want to get sued by the high-conflict parent, and they don't want to put the child in any more conflict than already exists. Understandable concerns.

That's probably the best way to get a bit of both worlds without jeopardizing your D6's confidentiality. My son has had two evals done and he actually enjoyed doing them both.

You may also want to pay close attention for signs of depression -- it looks different in kids. It used to be that they didn't think kids could be diagnosed depressed, but that view is changing. Often it can look like anxiety (the two often go together) in younger kids who seem well-adjusted in other ways. My son actually made a joke the day I took him out of school and left N/BPDx for good. Everyone thought he was such a little trooper. That actually should've been a warning sign that he was going to to be a "stuffer," as my T said.
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« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2015, 01:46:00 AM »

TryinsohardinPA:

This is awful what you (and your daughter) are going through. This man needs to lower his aggression level to zero.  It sounds like he is incapable of (proper) communication.

Volatility needs to be reduced in any correspondence with a person that shows this much aggression. Frustration seems to be this person's problem and then he acts out by not communicating in the proper way.

It sounds like this person will be back in your life over and over again (most likely  unexpectedly, and he will show up without any prior warning).  You will want to avoid any potential for domestic violence.

Consider purchasing video equipment to protect yourself.  The cheapest way to go is to get a front porch fake video camera for five bucks. You will be amazed at how behaviour changes when an aggressive person knows (or thinks) that they are being documented.

You may be stalked in the future. Consider a car dash cam.

I got mine from blackboxmycar.com and it was well worth the money.

When questioned (by my BPD ex) as to why I had these items, I informed her that there were a number of neighbourhood break-ins and that you have to protect your daughter (but say... "our daughter" to him so you don't come across as being possessive). 

Be a boy scout. Be prepared.

(sorry for changing the topic, and the direction of the subject matter in this thread --as therapy for everyone is essential--  but as soon as a person is threatened, or seemingly threatened, by an aggressive ex, then red flags should go up especially when there is nasty language and threats being thrown your way)
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