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Author Topic: I wasn't thinking. . .  (Read 629 times)
vortex of confusion
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« on: February 21, 2015, 09:56:38 PM »

I hear this phrase all of the time and it frustrates me to no end. There have been several things that have happened lately that have me really, really frustrated.

Yesterday afternoon, he surprised me with a stuffed animal. He hasn't done anything like that since we were first married. I validated and made a really big deal out of it. Last night, we were watching movies and I invited him to sit on the couch with me and cuddle a bit (all very innocent as the kids were in the room with us). I was feeling pretty good afterwards. After watching the movie, he gets on his computer and plays his game. I fall asleep.

I wake up to the kids fighting and he is asleep in the recliner. I am a bit angry because it is really late and the kids are still up and are fighting. I realize that it was my fault because I fell asleep in the first place. Anyway, the kids are fighting so I raise my voice to get their attention and try to diffuse the situation and get them to start heading to bed. He wakes up and starts raging at the kids. I am trying to get his attention but he doesn't hear me. I end up bopping him on the arm. I had tried to touch him lightly and say, ":)ad" to interrupt him. Anyway, he stops raging at the kids and starts raging at me and going on about how I hit him and that it hurt, blah, blah, blah. I didn't hit him. It was more like when you tap somebody on the arm to get their attention.

I get the kids to bed and he comes in to "Help". That sets the kids off. I get mad and go sit on the porch for a few minutes. I am not sure what transpired but he comes out and then our oldest comes out and says that all of the yelling woke her up and scared her. He finally goes to bed and I get everything straightened out and get the kids to bed.

I brought it up with him this morning and he admits that he wakes up angry. I asked him why he didn't wake me up if the kids wouldn't listen to him. He could have woken me up before he sat down and went to sleep. He could have stayed out of it when I was trying to figure out what was going on and sort stuff out with the kids. He tells me, "I wasn't thinking."

Today, we went out as a family to see some friends of ours at the park. It was a flea market with music and such. It started raining on our way there. We get to the park and there are chairs set up to watch the show. One kid had an ant on her. I was holding the hands of two of the kids. Our middle daughter had the umbrella. He was tagging along not helping with much. I needed to sit down so I could make sure the ant was off our daughter and put some ointment on it. I am fumbling through the bags looking for napkins or something to wipe the chair off. I find something and I get the chairs wiped down enough for me and our oldest to sit down. He just stood there and watched and then he takes off his rain coat, puts it on his chair, and sits down in a nice dry spot while the kids and I are sitting on damp chairs that I had to struggle to get dry enough for us to sit on.

On the way home, our oldest daughter said, "Mom, I wish I had a prince that would have offered me his jacket to sit on." So I said, "Me too honey. Me too." He heard it and got upset and said, "I wasn't thinking."

There have been so many times when I have been struggling to deal with the kids and make sure that everybody has what they need and all he is concerned about is himself. When I try to say anything, I get, "I wasn't thinking."

I have tried to discuss this with him and find ways to deal with this. We will discuss different ideas and he will think it is great but rarely follows through. I am trying to be more proactive and plan better but I can't anticipate everything. For example, if I don't have food ready and/or planned or tell him what to feed the kids while I am at work, I come home to hungry grumpy kids.

Any thoughts, ideas, encouragement? This really frustrates me.
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waverider
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« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2015, 04:02:43 AM »

pwBPD are inwardly focused and not always aware of what is going on around them unless they make a specific effort to look, then it is through a microscope, and often distorted.

Hence when he says he wasn't thinking it really means he was in tunnel thinking mode. Being caught out doing this is taken as criticism which often brings out defensive anger.

I guess you are lucky he admitted he wan't thinking rather than just denial and ridiculous excuse.

It is unlikely you will change this, it takes a lot of mindfulness therapy to stop focusing on what is in front of your nose and being aware of what is around you, and the impact things have. We all do it, BPD just makes it extreme.
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2015, 07:04:15 AM »

Vortex- I don't have any advice other than to say I understand your frustration. I think the stuffed animal gesture was sweet.

I basically took over responsibility for our kids' needs. H would help with putting them to bed- but it would not be on an equal basis, for instance it was always designed to be less times than me. I don't know if that was deliberate or not. He didn't get up at night with them in general, but maybe on occasion. So then, he would say" I put the kids to bed, I got up with them".

There were some times of disconnect- not thinking. I remember before we were married putting some kind of deposit on a trip we took - where we both paid it, but I think the name on record was his. After the trip, he got a small refund sent to him and kept it. It wasn't a huge deal but we were broke students and I tried to explain to him that since we both put in money, the refund should have been split between us. In his mind, he got a check made out to him, and just assumed it was his. I don't think he even remembered the deposit. He would never take money from someone. I just think he didn't think about it. I didn't see it as a red flag. I just assumed maybe he was tired and forgot, but it was not something I would have done. I would have remembered to split the refund.

There are personal memories that I bring up that he doesn't remember at all. I think, at those times, he may have been stressed or just up in his head. He remembers the big things and what is important to him to remember.

He used to call home from work, telling me he would do me a favor and pick up dinner on the way home. "You don't have to cook for me tonight". Well it was dinner for him. I still had to cook for me and the kids. He somehow thought that if he got his own dinner, he was doing me a big favor by excusing me from "cooking for him".  I tried to explain to him that a favor would be to pick up dinner for all of us. Cooking an extra portion for him was not extra effort and not cooking that extra portion was not a break- still was the same time, same pans, same preparation and clean up either way.

I don't think there is much that can be done. I just learned that if it was important to me, I needed to be responsible for it.
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2015, 07:09:25 AM »

i see something you would do well to acknowledge and accept. (Still sucks!)

Waverider gave a great explanation of where "I wasn't thinking" came from, and also how it *could* be worse.

It could also be a LOT better--He could accept full responsibility for what he did, and change in a way to do better in the future.

Time to accept that you WANT him to do a lot more, and that he doesn't have it in himself. At least not today and not very often. Even when he is trying all he is worth to do better. 
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2015, 07:52:45 AM »

I think sometimes, if there is a tendency to dysregulate, they may be using all their energy and thinking to keep a grip on themselves, and so are unaware of what may be going on with others. Like your H sitting on his own dry spot- he may have just been thinking "hey I want a dry place to sit".

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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2015, 08:10:52 AM »

Maybe asking for what you need in the moment will get you better results?  "Honey, will you look for napkins or something to wipe off these seats, please?  I have to find the ant on daughter.  Thanks."

I have a friend who gets so frustrated with her husband for "Not thinking!", she tells him this, while pointed to her head forcefully.  It doesn't help.  He'll do anything for her, he just needs guidance in the moment, because in another breath she'll say that if she wants anything done right, she has to do it herself.

We kinda have to assume that other people don't see the world in the same way as we do and then accept it and ask for what we want/need nicely.
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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2015, 09:03:02 AM »

VOC,

Phoebe makes a good point. I'm one of those really annoyingly organised people who work pretty much to a schedule that is unchanging. ( except for the holidays ) When something needs doing ill do it, paint it fix it whatever it is. Then I get infuriated because my h doesn't see the world or live in the world in the same immediate, urgent, organised way that I do. But get this I've learnt that if I ask him to help me out, because for so long I assumed that he would help without my asking, it acts like a prompt, and usually if it is immediate he will do it.

The other thing that struck me about your post is that there were some real positives in it;

the cuddly toy

the family outing

some help with the kids

some communication about how he was feeling and that he finds certain things difficult

your h sounds as though he is trying really hard at the moment in a way that I haven't read in your posts before.
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2015, 12:15:15 PM »

I like Phoebe's suggestion... .as I've wished for the same thing quite a few times.

There is a really toxic game my wife played with me:

"I want 'X' from you, and if I have to ask for it, it doesn't count."

So as soon as I heard that she wanted something, I would try to do it for her... .and promptly have it rejected--since she had to ask, it wasn't good enough!

VOC, if you've done this before with your husband, it is going to take a lot of work to rebuild his trust enough that he can respond constructively when you ask for something from him.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2015, 01:58:33 PM »

Wow, lots of really good food for thought!

Waverider, thanks for pointing this out:

Excerpt
I guess you are lucky he admitted he wan't thinking rather than just denial and ridiculous excuse.

In the past, that is how he responded. I think it was about a year ago when he called me an ugly name and said something horrible to me. When I called him on it, he denied that he said it and it turned into a bit of a fight. He later admitted, "I thought it but I didn't say it. I guess I said it out loud when I thought I was saying it in my head." Even that was progress because for a whole lot of years, all I got was straight denial and BS excuses.

Wendy,

Excerpt
I basically took over responsibility for our kids' needs. H would help with putting them to bed- but it would not be on an equal basis, for instance it was always designed to be less times than me. I don't know if that was deliberate or not. He didn't get up at night with them in general, but maybe on occasion. So then, he would say" I put the kids to bed, I got up with them".

The kids are my primary responsibility. There is no equality when it comes to child care or dealing with the kids. When I leave the kids with him, I try to approach it as though I am leaving them with a baby sitter. Not my attitude but my preparations. If I was leaving them with a babysitter, I would likely make sure that the sitter knew what to feed them, when to put them to bed, and make sure that I could be contacted in the event of any problems. I don't like approaching things that way but it works better than the alternatives. I do have to catch myself from thinking, "If I was a single mom, yes, I would have to do all of this stuff alone but it might be easier since there wouldn't be anybody to set the kids off."

Phoebe, I want to address this a bit:

Excerpt
Maybe asking for what you need in the moment will get you better results?  "Honey, will you look for napkins or something to wipe off these seats, please?  I have to find the ant on daughter.  Thanks."

I would say that most of the time, I either ask or tell him what to do. I probably wouldn't have given a second thought to the chair thing if our oldest daughter hadn't noticed and said something about it. There are times when I am not in a position where I can ask him for help. I am thinking back on the incident and I don't recall him being anywhere in the vicinity when I was in the midst of needing help. Sometimes, I feel like he conveniently disappears on me and then resurfaces when I have everything under control. I have learned over the years that if I want or need something, then I have to ask him directly and, at times, give him very specific directions.

Sweetheart:

Thanks for pointing out those positives. I am grateful for them and I do see them as progress. I am having very mixed feelings about them though because it feels like they are part of a larger pattern. Not sure if I can explain this very well. The pattern is that we will make a lot of progress and then he will backslide and start acting like he doesn't have to do anything any more. To me, that is what the bed time stuff and park stuff felt like to me. It felt like his actions were saying, "I have done all of this great stuff, now I can relax and not keep working on things." That is a cycle I am trying to break. I have tried to reinforce his good behavior. It seems to me like me reinforcing the good behavior leads to him getting lazy. He gets lazy and backslides. I get angry and frustrated.

I am trying to figure out how to deal with things on my side of the fence.

-Most of the things that I ask for have to do with kids and the business of running the house. Right now, that is all I want from him. He rarely, if ever, takes any kind of initiative. At the park, I spent most of my time playing with the kids while he sat and watched. I had to ask him to take the kids to the kid zone. He did it but only after I asked. He did walk around with the kids through one of the areas but, again, it was only after I asked. I wanted him to take some pictures so I asked. All of the other pictures were taken by me and the kids. I am well aware of the need to ask him to do things. I can't comprehend how a person can be a father and NOT do these things with his kids without being asked. Heck, when I am at work, I will sometimes have to tell him things like, "Hey, it's a nice day. Take the kids out to play." If I don't say anything, then he will sit on the computer the entire time and so will the kids. I am not making this out to be "It only counts if I ask." This is me being tired and frustrated because I have to do the thinking and asking and sometimes the asking part requires too much work because of how he will sometimes act when I do.

For example, I will ask him to go to bed. He snores like a freight train and I know that if he is asleep in the living room and gets woken up, he will be a super mega jerk. He will get upset and refuse or be a jerk. I have tried to discuss this with him during the day when he is awake and in a place where he can have a rational conversation. Asking him clearly for things is no guarantee that I will get the help that I want or need. He is very likely to stomp around and act like a child.

-I realize that I can get easily discouraged when he backslides and has several episodes that are close together. I am afraid that things will go back to like they used to be. I know that things could be much worse. We were there.

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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2015, 02:57:13 PM »

"This is me being tired and frustrated because I have to do the thinking and asking and sometimes the asking part requires too much work because of how he will sometimes act when I do." 

I can really relate to the tiredness and frustration VOC. I often phone my mum and say today I felt like running off screaming down the road. That's my favourite saying even though I've never run off anywhere.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2015, 03:11:54 PM »

It can be tiring simply living with some who lives wholly in a reactive way rather than being proactive. Have to tell, and remind someone to do the chores for example, eventually becomes more tiring than doing them yourself.

The problem is that when you do take it on yourself it sets a precedent, and it becomes even harder to get help in other ways. There always seems to be a shortfall in proactive effort regardless of where you set your level of acceptance. This builds frustration which blows up now and then no matter how patient you are.

Give an inch and they will take a mile, so be wary of this.
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2015, 03:27:29 PM »

It can be tiring simply living with some who lives wholly in a reactive way rather than being proactive. Have to tell, and remind someone to do the chores for example, eventually becomes more tiring than doing them yourself.

The problem is that when you do take it on yourself it sets a precedent, and it becomes even harder to get help in other ways. There always seems to be a shortfall in proactive effort regardless of where you set your level of acceptance. This builds frustration which blows up now and then no matter how patient you are.

Thanks for the reminder waverider!

Yes, it is very tiring living with somebody that is very focused on himself and lives reactively.

I know that I have set the precedent of taking care of pretty much everything. I know that this is my fault and that I have to do a better job of accepting things as they are. Every now and then, I need to be reminded of that.

Excerpt
Give an inch and they will take a mile, so be wary of this.

I have been living this for years!
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2015, 04:07:42 PM »

Isn't it interesting that even when we have become used to having to shoulder all the responsibility in a certain area of our life that we still assume that our pwBPD would willingly see what is needed to be a team player and want to help out? I know it's sort of magical thinking in my case, in spite of all evidence confirming the opposite. Yet hope springs eternal... .the problem is when this does not happen, we get disappointed and resentful. I have to keep telling myself that my H does not react like a normal human being. He does not understand how to be a member of the tribe. He thinks everything is about him, yet he thinks he is so flawed and unworthy, and he is constantly disappointed in other people's responses to him, in ways that astound me. It's like that rule of invalidation: if you validate 99% of the time, that 1% you've missed will ruin the whole effect.
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2015, 04:13:10 PM »

I don't know if that last post of mine made a whole lot of sense. The part about invalidation referred to an event that we just attended last night, a birthday party for my husband's best friend.

The relationship dynamic between the two of them is not equal. The friend is very social and has lots of close friends, while my husband lacks other close buddies. So in this group of people, with everyone celebrating our friend's birthday, my husband started feeling invalidated because he wasn't his friend's only BFF.  

So when the birthday toasts ended and our friend talked about how much everyone there meant to him, it was a major invalidation because my husband was one of eighteen people, not the most important one.  
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2015, 06:09:46 PM »

I don't know if that last post of mine made a whole lot of sense. The part about invalidation referred to an event that we just attended last night, a birthday party for my husband's best friend.

The relationship dynamic between the two of them is not equal. The friend is very social and has lots of close friends, while my husband lacks other close buddies. So in this group of people, with everyone celebrating our friend's birthday, my husband started feeling invalidated because he wasn't his friend's only BFF.  

So when the birthday toasts ended and our friend talked about how much everyone there meant to him, it was a major invalidation because my husband was one of eighteen people, not the most important one.  

That's because of his inability to see the bigger picture, and inability to see how someone else can share 'special' friendships amongst many people. When reality hits them in the face it triggers a jealousy and sense of being "tricked". This delusion is blamed on the the other person stringing them along as "special friends" rather than their own tunnel view of the world.
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2015, 06:11:39 PM »

BFF & BPD, sounds contradictory doesn't it?

Yet they go into BFF mode quicker than anyone else
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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2015, 06:19:30 PM »

That's because of his inability to see the bigger picture, and inability to see how someone else can share 'special' friendships amongst many people. When reality hits them in the face it triggers a jealousy and sense of being "tricked". This delusion is blamed on the the other person stringing them along as "special friends" rather than their own tunnel view of the world.

Yes, that's exactly what he thought--that he was being delusional thinking that his friend actually liked him. He wants to be so special to people, yet he just doesn't know how to really be a friend, or a consistently loving and supportive husband. It's sad what pwBPD miss out on--and they seem to think they've found their BFF or perfect romantic partner, only to have their hopes dashed time and time again.
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2015, 06:28:07 PM »

The danger then is they then self sabotage by acting "off" with their friend and bitter towards the other friends. This then alienates their friend (as they have a choice of friends), and this descends into all the abandonment issues>>full splitting, self pity and leaning on you to validate how their "so called friend' has done the dirty...

If you don't agree this is the case then you cop it too
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2015, 06:46:41 PM »

The danger then is they then self sabotage by acting "off" with their friend and bitter towards the other friends. This then alienates their friend (as they have a choice of friends), and this descends into all the abandonment issues>>full splitting, self pity and leaning on you to validate how their "so called friend' has done the dirty...

If you don't agree this is the case then you cop it too

Thanks, waverider, you explain the pattern well. I never could understand why he'd get upset over something that looked so trivial to me and then start acting weird. The abandonment issues and splitting makes perfect sense! I'll have to tread carefully.
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2015, 06:59:20 PM »

Once my mother painted one of her friends black and decided not to speak to her. My dad was sick at the time and I came to visit. This poor friend was calling frantically to find out how my father was doing and my mom refused to pick up the phone and speak to her. This friend was naturally very concerned. My mom was letting her call and leave messages.

I can't recall what happened exactly as it was a long time ago, but when I was there, the friend called and I picked up the phone. I had known this woman since I was a small child and so, it was appropriate that I would answer and I was able to bring her up to date on my father's situation.

A few days later, my mom just decided the friend was OK again and went on as if nothing happened.
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« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2015, 06:11:20 AM »

Today, we went out as a family to see some friends of ours at the park. It was a flea market with music and such. It started raining on our way there. We get to the park and there are chairs set up to watch the show. One kid had an ant on her. I was holding the hands of two of the kids. Our middle daughter had the umbrella. He was tagging along not helping with much. I needed to sit down so I could make sure the ant was off our daughter and put some ointment on it. I am fumbling through the bags looking for napkins or something to wipe the chair off. I find something and I get the chairs wiped down enough for me and our oldest to sit down. He just stood there and watched and then he takes off his rain coat, puts it on his chair, and sits down in a nice dry spot while the kids and I are sitting on damp chairs that I had to struggle to get dry enough for us to sit on.

On the way home, our oldest daughter said, "Mom, I wish I had a prince that would have offered me his jacket to sit on." So I said, "Me too honey. Me too." He heard it and got upset and said, "I wasn't thinking."

Phoebe, I want to address this a bit:

Excerpt
Maybe asking for what you need in the moment will get you better results?  "Honey, will you look for napkins or something to wipe off these seats, please?  I have to find the ant on daughter.  Thanks."

I would say that most of the time, I either ask or tell him what to do. I probably wouldn't have given a second thought to the chair thing if our oldest daughter hadn't noticed and said something about it. There are times when I am not in a position where I can ask him for help. I am thinking back on the incident and I don't recall him being anywhere in the vicinity when I was in the midst of needing help. Sometimes, I feel like he conveniently disappears on me and then resurfaces when I have everything under control. I have learned over the years that if I want or need something, then I have to ask him directly and, at times, give him very specific directions.

Not to sound like your husband's defense attorney, but... .

Was he there tagging along not helping with much, just standing around watching /or/ was he nowhere in the vicinity while you were in the midst of needing help?

Vortex, we really need to get honest with ourselves about how we contribute to the conflict.  Yes, it's frustrating feeling alone in a relationship, like we're holding it all together while they sit on the sidelines, self-absorbed in their own little world. 

Whether he was there or had drifted off, the same principal applies... .  Ask for what you need.  If he has a tendency to wander off, ask ahead of time that he sticks around to help until you're all settled in.

Most of the behaviors repeat themselves, so it comes as no big surprise when a situation occurs.  The surprising results occur when we handle these situations differently, when we respond differently.  When we take a proactive stance in taking care of ourselves, by expressing our needs, because we are aware of the patterns and triggers for potential conflict.

We won't always get it right.  Oh well, that's not really the point.  We're trying to create a better relationship.  A better life.  We sometimes have to sound like a broken record until it gets through, even to ourselves. 

You oldest daughter seems very aware of the dynamics and identifies with you.  I did the same with my mom.  I wanted my mom to be happy.  What seemed to make her happy was validation that my dad and sister were working against her/us.  I became the eyes and ears for potential trouble brewing.  In return, I received validation for my observations and loyalty and a more enmeshed relationship with Mom.  I had some control over the outcome, some control over a potentially chaotic situation and it felt like that was my place in the family.  Dad was the scapegoat, sister was the scapegoat... .  I did not want to be Mom's scapegoat.

I am trying to figure out how to deal with things on my side of the fence.

Are you working with a therapist to help sort through all of this?

When we shift or change our perspective, we change our lives!



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Notwendy
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« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2015, 07:11:26 AM »

It's good to be reminded to ask for what we want. Sometimes my H wants something, but he doesn't tell me. Then, he's disappointed and angry and I have no idea why.

For me, there has been some conditioning over the years to not ask my H. When the kids were little, if I asked him to help he'd rage, or not be reliable. I just learned that it was easier and quicker to do it myself or ask a sitter to watch them if I really wanted to go somewhere. Eventually, I forgot that asking was even an option.

A while back, I was helping a friend in her kitchen. Eventually, I noticed that her husband was standing in the kitchen, looking perturbed. Finally, he said " I'm here to help you and I'm waiting for you to ask me to do something." I just looked at him with a puzzled look and he continued " I help at home so give me something to do".

My H will sit or stand in the kitchen, reading something, while I did everything. If I asked, he would get angry. Soon, I learned to ignore him while I went about my business. I was doing the same thing to my friend's H. I didn't even notice he was there.

What I realized now with my H is that there is a pattern of the first response to a request being negative, then, after he thinks about it, or calms down, he will often say yes. I don't make unreasonable demands on him ( usually I don't ask him anything ). I think he has some awareness that he was being unkind- but he won't say it- he will usually attempt to do what I ask. What I didn't learn in my early years of marriage ( not knowing what was going on) was to not react to his first reaction- which for me is to not bother him.

I have had to learn how to ask- ask- and if he rants, not react or take it personally- then wait to see what he says next.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2015, 07:22:40 AM »

I have had to learn how to ask- ask- and if he rants, not react or take it personally- then wait to see what he says next.

Notwendy, same here!  My guy's a No guy, too.  Same as my mom.  So knowing that his first response might be a negative, I can validate that, and give him space to work through his thoughts.  More often than not, he sees it as request and not a demand and that it has potential for a good outcome!  Of course, that depends on how I ask to begin with.  He trusts now that I'm not asking for anything outlandish.
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2015, 08:02:42 AM »

Funny... .my wife accuses me of always saying no, and I am often guilty as charged.

For me that sort of initial defensive/negative reaction is the hardest thing to change. I think it is a simple conversation, so I just open my mouth and say what first comes out without stopping to think seriously first. *IF* I stopped to think I'd respond differently, but teaching myself to pause every time before I speak isn't easy either, and perhaps not even truly desirable!

And if I respond that way... .and get a response somewhat validating... .or at least short of full-on dysregulation... .I'm very easygoing and happy to say "Oops, sorry" and then start helping whatever... .I never went off in a huff or a rage because something was asked of me!

It is fascinating and educational when we (as non's) are opposite sides of the initial (small) negative interaction!

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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2015, 08:18:18 AM »

Can this be a guy thing ( for some guys)? My H has this idea that if he says "yes" to me asking, then he is being "pussywhipped" ( his words) and so he says no to almost everything.  I understand a guy not wanting to be held hostage to his partner's beck and call, but that isn't me. I have no interest in that.

I also think he struggles with wanting to be seen as the good guy, and that makes him also struggle with saying yes when he means no. I think my requests create sort of a battle for him- not knowing what to do. However, saying no all the time and also saying yes when you mean no are not healthy responses.

Sometimes when he comes back with a yes after saying no, I have a hard time believing it because I don't know what he means. Sometimes he has said yes to something, only to rage at it later- making me wonder about the "yes".

I think we all struggle with this to some extent with our loved ones. It doesn't feel good to say no, but if we say yes when we mean no we feel resentment. However, I think my H isn't able to discriminate what is going on, so even a small request could set him off as if I was asking him for a billion dollar mansion.

And sometimes a request is not an order. I remember asking him to kiss me. This was an invitation- the kind of invitation I think most guys would like to get from their wives.  He took it as "ordering him around" and so, to "teach me a lesson", he refused to kiss me for weeks, maybe months, I don't remember. However, he still would push me for sex. I didn't know what was going on at the time, but to me, kissing was part of the intimacy and passion that meant so much for me. I have to admit that this changed something for me. Not knowing what was going on, it was very hurtful. Eventually he decided he would kiss me, but now, when he does, it brings back that sadness and I sometimes cry.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2015, 09:58:22 AM »

Was he there tagging along not helping with much, just standing around watching /or/ was he nowhere in the vicinity while you were in the midst of needing help?

I have no friggin' idea what he was doing. I was taking care of 4 kids. Two of them were holding my hand. One was fumbling with an umbrella and one was complaining about being bit by an ant. I didn't really have the wherewithal to know exactly where he was or what he was doing. It is a guess on my part as to what he was or wasn't doing.

I don't think I understand how I am supposed to keep up with 4 kids and know exactly what he is doing too. I am supposed to be able to ask him for help. How can I do that when I am in the middle of juggling stuff for 4 kids? I don't keep track of his every move.

No, I don't always ask him for help because I know how he is going to respond. If I want things to be peaceful, I know to let him be, especially if we are out and about.

Waverider said it best. This IS my fault because I am not trying hard enough to ask nicely. I am not being direct enough. I am not enough because I am not willing to admit my part of the equation. In all honesty, I don't know what more I can do. I come here to vent and get a little bit of encouragement because I had a bad day and I feel like I am being told that my husband gets a free pass to do whatever he does or doesn't want to do and I have to work even harder.
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Cat Familiar
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2015, 10:09:42 AM »

I have no friggin' idea what he was doing. I was taking care of 4 kids. Two of them were holding my hand. One was fumbling with an umbrella and one was complaining about being bit by an ant. I didn't really have the wherewithal to know exactly where he was or what he was doing. It is a guess on my part as to what he was or wasn't doing.

I don't think I understand how I am supposed to keep up with 4 kids and know exactly what he is doing too. I am supposed to be able to ask him for help. How can I do that when I am in the middle of juggling stuff for 4 kids? I don't keep track of his every move.

No, I don't always ask him for help because I know how he is going to respond. If I want things to be peaceful, I know to let him be, especially if we are out and about.

Waverider said it best. This IS my fault because I am not trying hard enough to ask nicely. I am not being direct enough. I am not enough because I am not willing to admit my part of the equation. In all honesty, I don't know what more I can do. I come here to vent and get a little bit of encouragement because I had a bad day and I feel like I am being told that my husband gets a free pass to do whatever he does or doesn't want to do and I have to work even harder.

You are overwhelmed with responsibilities, while he gets to be a slacker!    It's truly not fair! And I can hear the frustration in your words. I know you and I have talked about how a pwBPD can get a free ride while everyone else is picking up the pieces. I don't have any words of wisdom, just a virtual hug for you.   
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2015, 10:46:58 AM »

Vortex- I hear you. Some things are just not worth the battle and especially when you have young kids clamoring for your attention, it makes little sense to pay attention to an adult.

Once, the kids were hungry and I was trying to get them fed. My H was just sitting there at the table, as if he was one of the kids. Mealtimes were usually like this, with me scrambling around getting everything together and him just being in the kitchen inert. This would irritate the heck out of me, but if I snapped at him, heaven help me. His reply was that he was keeping me company.  

So I was pouring their drinks into sippy cups with lids, and without thinking, put one in front of my H. I didn't even mean to do it, it just happened. In my mind, I had simply not considered that there was another adult there.

However, what can happen over the long run is that we don't think of asking, they are not aware or have the ability to help. I was not taught to be a mom. What taught me was the learning and practice from my kids. They soon figured out that if they wanted or needed something, to come to mom. Dad was out of the loop- so he didn't get to learn the hands on dad stuff. However, he is good with them once they are older. It's easy to take teens to the movies- they by now aren't fighting, needing someone to take them potty, and they can get their own food.

I saw this with my mom. I know how to cook- if we were hungry as kids, we knew not to ask mom. Once she was at our house and I asked her to help me make something. She wanted to, but it was as if she was lost about how to do it. She kept asking me a lot of questions- which pan to use, which spoon. It occurred to me that because we were so trained not to ask her that she may not have learned how. She also needed so much validation that she was doing OK.  

Of course, with little kids running around, I have neither the time, patience or attention to deal with another adult like that. You do what you gotta do.

All of us here are learning the best way to deal with what we have, but we also have to apply and consider advice in our own circumstances. Sometimes I am not in a place to think about what I could do differently, but I might be able to do that later.

   just probably not a good idea to fix your H a sippy cup  







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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2015, 11:11:07 AM »

However, he is good with them once they are older. It's easy to take teens to the movies- they by now aren't fighting, needing someone to take them potty, and they can get their own food.

Mine was actually really good when they were babies. Things got worse when they got old enough to walk and talk and question him and challenge him. My older two girls have fond memories of dad being pretty fun when they were little. I have talked to the oldest about how much she misses the dad that she used to have when she was little.

Mine would probably laugh if I accidentally gave him a sippy cup. On his 40th birthday, somebody gave him an adult sized sippy cup and he loved it. My husband doesn't have any problems with acting like a child and being treated like a child. He seems to prefer it. I get in trouble when I treat him like an adult and want him to act like an adult.
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2015, 12:03:52 PM »

Vortex, one possible idea to hold on to...

My kids' baby years were tough times for me. H had painted me black- he was hardly around. I held on basically for the sake of the kids. A big motivator was for them to not have gone through emotionally what I went through with my mom. I didn't understand what was going on with her. I just know that I needed a mom and wanted to be a good mom to my kids, as I know you do too.

I had to really look into myself and my own values and although it also felt it wasn't fair that I had to do so much of the parenting, I also saw it as an opportunity. They are not little forever. If my H didn't choose to be a hands on parent- that was his choice to make. Our relationship with kids is not a given. It is something we have to make an effort to build on.

My motivation to work on myself did not come from wanting to improve my r/s. At that time, I had no more energy for that. I wanted to be the best mom I could be. My H has changed his perception of us over time. I don't really know why. He stopped painting me black. He is also very invested in spending time with the kids. I think he does feel some regret over not spending as much time with them as he could have. He never raged at them or treated them like my mother treated us, but he also thinks he didn't spend as much time with them as he feels he should have. I don't comment on this- these are his thoughts. The kids are closer to him now that he is more available to them- and in a way, I think his feeling like he may have missed out is what is motivating him to have a good relationship with them now, and that is good for all of us.

Kids bond with the parent who makes the effort to do so. I think your H is doing some of that. You may be doing more, but time with your kids is always a good investment. I don't think I did this by design, but I think once I gave up on struggling with my H over who would do what, and just focused on being with the kids, it may have given him the space to see spending time with them as something he could do for him, not me.


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