Effects of BPDmom's co-sleeping with SDs

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

I am looking for some stepmom advice about a challenging issue with the kids, ideally advice that applies to me and not what DH should do, as I am not DH.  

We are dealing with the challenging effects of mom's intense co-sleeping with SD10 and SD14, almost 11 and 15.  SD 10 has been having a hard time on transitions from mom's.  She has arrived at our house over the past 4 months or so looking totally exhausted--bags under her eyes, hard time concentrating,  sick almost every time, really anxious.  Saying she misses her mom, crying, super anxious and upset, and then when we ask her what she misses most about mommy, she ends up talking about how she feels guilty for not being a good enough daughter.  She also is just much more enmeshed with mom--totally focused on mom's needs, emotional state, accepting mom's reality as truth, whereas most of her life she has been able to say things like, "I love mommy even though she lies a lot." or, "Sometimes mommy gets very angry at SD14 for nothing.  Why does she do that?" Whereas now her attitude is, "Why are people mean to mommy and make her mad?" or "I am angry at you because you made mommy mad."

Most of her childhood she has NOT been super enmeshed with mom, more with SD14.  Part of this is that SD14 now has her own room and sleeps less with mommy, so I think SD10 is the target of more of mom's needs.  Part of this is that SD14 is definitely the favorite, and is temperamentally more suited to meeting mom's needs.  And I also think that for a few years after our last custody battle, BPD mom let the kids sleep in their own beds more, and now is back to sleeping in the same bed with SD10 every night.

From what SD10 says, she and mommy sleep totally wrapped around each other, legs straddling each other, and so forth, every night.  I know there are different standards about this--some people area really into co-sleeping.  My sense is that this is about mom's needs for partnership and intimacy being met, and also a way for the kids to address mom's fear of them separating and her becoming less important in the kids' lives.  

BPD mom did "nurse" the kids occasionally YEARS after weaning (both kids were weaned at around 2)--up until SD14 was about 12, and SD10 was about 8.  I think that has stopped after it was mentioned in the custody evaluation.  

We do not have the kind of communication with BPD mom where DH could successfully address this, and there are so many less controversial issues where mom is blowing it that we are dealing with all the time, that it is hard to spend capital upsetting her here.  For example, mom does not tell dad about dr. appointments; mom drives drunk; mom is court ordered to get therapy and does not; mom is opposing the kids' court ordered therapy by telling them it is bad and raging at DH about it and by verbally attacking the therapists in front of the kids; mom is now threatening another custody battle and telling the kids that they should live with her all of the time, and that when they are 12, or 13, or 14, they can choose to live with her and should testify... .stuff that is all terribly stressful particularly for SD10.

I do not have authority to even bring this up with BPD mom, and it is low on a very long list of stuff DH has to communicate about (DH had to text 15 times to BPD mom to get her to let him know the name of the Doctor BPD mom took SD14 to for shots so he could get the records he needed for her school enrollment, when she is supposed to inform him of any and all dr appointments in advance).  

So what I am working on is just what can I (and we, DH too) do to help SD10 with this?  The main issues at our house is that she is really lonely sleeping alone, really upset about mom and fearful when she is separate from mom that mom will not lover her because she did something wrong.There is also just the fact that she is increasingly enmeshed with mom and more focused on mom's well being than her own when at mom's house.  

Here is what I do to address these issues at our house.  I validate a lot: "Yes, when you sleep in the same bed with someone every night and then you are alone in your bed, you really miss them!"  "I hear you are really missing your mommy right now."  I also let her know I love her no matter what, that even when she really misses mommy and does not want me to touch her, I love her from afar and understand she feels sad, and she is okay with me with all those feelings.  On transitions from her mom, she often will ask me how I feel about not being the most important parent to her right now (she used to be really clear DH, mommy, and me were all her parents, and she loved all of us the same but needed mommy more because she was little).  I let her know I love the way she loves me, and that I know her mommy is very important to her right now, and that I am fine with who SD10 loves because it is part of who she is and I love her with all my heart.  I just try to model that I am not afraid of being loved less or more, my love is about my feelings for her not something I use as a reward or that will go away if she is upset or if I feel hurt.  

I also really try to model non-enmeshed caring--that if I am upset, it is what I am feeling in my body, not her fault... .and that if she is upset, that is what she feels . I also try to speak my body boundaries--if I am putting her to sleep on a transition day and she wraps her legs around me, I say, "That is a little to much for me. Can you lay on my arm instead while I read you this story?"  She usually goes to bed by herself, until the last few months when she sleeps with mommy every night.  

I am looking for your ideas about how to address this issue, in ways appropriate for me to do as a stepmom, and for DH to do without bringing this up with BPD mom.  He may bring it up at some point, but he may not.  A lot of it depends on how many other issues are happening, as it takes serious persistence to get any issue resolved at all.  

I think my biggest concern is that she seems under constant stress with mom, tons of guilt and fear of mommy being upset, of not being totally loyal at every second to mommy, and the way that sleeping with mommy (who drinks a lot and does not sleep well and has no sense of physical boundaries) makes it hard for her to have a sense of her own feelings and experiences. So mom's state is very scary and stressed and blaming and afraid, and she is just taking that in as her own state of being with few filters when they are so close physically and emotionally.  

Your words would be much appreciated (unless they are that DH should talk to BPD mom about this, as I have no control over DH, etc.).

[ennie]

I am looking for some stepmom advice about a challenging issue with the kids, ideally advice that applies to me and not what DH should do, as I am not DH.  

We are dealing with the challenging effects of mom's intense co-sleeping with SD10 and SD14, almost 11 and 15.  SD 10 has been having a hard time on transitions from mom's.  She has arrived at our house over the past 4 months or so looking totally exhausted--bags under her eyes, hard time concentrating,  sick almost every time, really anxious.  Saying she misses her mom, crying, super anxious and upset, and then when we ask her what she misses most about mommy, she ends up talking about how she feels guilty for not being a good enough daughter.  She also is just much more enmeshed with mom--totally focused on mom's needs, emotional state, accepting mom's reality as truth, whereas most of her life she has been able to say things like, "I love mommy even though she lies a lot." or, "Sometimes mommy gets very angry at SD14 for nothing.  Why does she do that?" Whereas now her attitude is, "Why are people mean to mommy and make her mad?" or "I am angry at you because you made mommy mad."

Most of her childhood she has NOT been super enmeshed with mom, more with SD14.  Part of this is that SD14 now has her own room and sleeps less with mommy, so I think SD10 is the target of more of mom's needs.  Part of this is that SD14 is definitely the favorite, and is temperamentally more suited to meeting mom's needs.  And I also think that for a few years after our last custody battle, BPD mom let the kids sleep in their own beds more, and now is back to sleeping in the same bed with SD10 every night.

From what SD10 says, she and mommy sleep totally wrapped around each other, legs straddling each other, and so forth, every night.  I know there are different standards about this--some people area really into co-sleeping.  My sense is that this is about mom's needs for partnership and intimacy being met, and also a way for the kids to address mom's fear of them separating and her becoming less important in the kids' lives.  

BPD mom did "nurse" the kids occasionally YEARS after weaning (both kids were weaned at around 2)--up until SD14 was about 12, and SD10 was about 8.  I think that has stopped after it was mentioned in the custody evaluation.  

We do not have the kind of communication with BPD mom where DH could successfully address this, and there are so many less controversial issues where mom is blowing it that we are dealing with all the time, that it is hard to spend capital upsetting her here.  For example, mom does not tell dad about dr. appointments; mom drives drunk; mom is court ordered to get therapy and does not; mom is opposing the kids' court ordered therapy by telling them it is bad and raging at DH about it and by verbally attacking the therapists in front of the kids; mom is now threatening another custody battle and telling the kids that they should live with her all of the time, and that when they are 12, or 13, or 14, they can choose to live with her and should testify... .stuff that is all terribly stressful particularly for SD10.

I do not have authority to even bring this up with BPD mom, and it is low on a very long list of stuff DH has to communicate about (DH had to text 15 times to BPD mom to get her to let him know the name of the Doctor BPD mom took SD14 to for shots so he could get the records he needed for her school enrollment, when she is supposed to inform him of any and all dr appointments in advance).  

So what I am working on is just what can I (and we, DH too) do to help SD10 with this?  The main issues at our house is that she is really lonely sleeping alone, really upset about mom and fearful when she is separate from mom that mom will not lover her because she did something wrong.There is also just the fact that she is increasingly enmeshed with mom and more focused on mom's well being than her own when at mom's house.  

Here is what I do to address these issues at our house.  I validate a lot: "Yes, when you sleep in the same bed with someone every night and then you are alone in your bed, you really miss them!"  "I hear you are really missing your mommy right now."  I also let her know I love her no matter what, that even when she really misses mommy and does not want me to touch her, I love her from afar and understand she feels sad, and she is okay with me with all those feelings.  On transitions from her mom, she often will ask me how I feel about not being the most important parent to her right now (she used to be really clear DH, mommy, and me were all her parents, and she loved all of us the same but needed mommy more because she was little).  I let her know I love the way she loves me, and that I know her mommy is very important to her right now, and that I am fine with who SD10 loves because it is part of who she is and I love her with all my heart.  I just try to model that I am not afraid of being loved less or more, my love is about my feelings for her not something I use as a reward or that will go away if she is upset or if I feel hurt.  

I also really try to model non-enmeshed caring--that if I am upset, it is what I am feeling in my body, not her fault... .and that if she is upset, that is what she feels . I also try to speak my body boundaries--if I am putting her to sleep on a transition day and she wraps her legs around me, I say, "That is a little to much for me. Can you lay on my arm instead while I read you this story?"  She usually goes to bed by herself, until the last few months when she sleeps with mommy every night.  

I am looking for your ideas about how to address this issue, in ways appropriate for me to do as a stepmom, and for DH to do without bringing this up with BPD mom.  He may bring it up at some point, but he may not.  A lot of it depends on how many other issues are happening, as it takes serious persistence to get any issue resolved at all.  

I think my biggest concern is that she seems under constant stress with mom, tons of guilt and fear of mommy being upset, of not being totally loyal at every second to mommy, and the way that sleeping with mommy (who drinks a lot and does not sleep well and has no sense of physical boundaries) makes it hard for her to have a sense of her own feelings and experiences. So mom's state is very scary and stressed and blaming and afraid, and she is just taking that in as her own state of being with few filters when they are so close physically and emotionally.  

Your words would be much appreciated (unless they are that DH should talk to BPD mom about this, as I have no control over DH, etc.).

[livednlearned]

ennie,

Do you ever speak more directly to the issues? For example, "SD10, I notice you are experiencing more stress lately, like x y and z. I see how tired you are, your eyes are puffy and you have a hard time with a b and c. You seem to have lots of anxiety that you aren't a good enough daughter, like when you said l m n o p last week. Those are really tough feelings to deal with, and can really wind you up, which makes it hard to focus on what you want and need."

If she can see how that all adds up to some pretty big anxiety, would she be open to working out one small way to take care of herself, with you there to help her figure out a contract? Maybe something she can do at her mom's, and something she can do at her place.

It's challenging to carve out small healthy spaces when you have an overwhelming and powerful presence in your life. But just the thought that you can carve out that spot, and try to make time for it when the coast is clear and it feels safe to do so -- that may help her find a tiny bit of self care and even some balance in a situation where she doesn't have a whole lot of control.

[ennie]

ennie,

Do you ever speak more directly to the issues?

Yes, not that exact conversation because even that amount is hard for her right now and she will just do anything to avoid talking about it.  But I will say that I notice she is very tired, and that she seems very stressed and we talk about ways of taking care of her. 

I have three days alone with her, so maybe there will be some more opportunities.  It seems like she is most open to talking about this kind of stuff if I make it more about she and I--I got angry at her this weekend, so I can talk to her about how she can take care of herself when I am upset, and then talk about how it is when her mommy is upset.  The hard thing is that she is at an age where she wants so much for mommy to be "normal" and she is willing to be "bad" if that reinforces mom's story that it is everyone else's fault that she rages and does odd things.  With SD14, I could talk more directly about that possibility that mom could be a lovable human being even if she does not do some things well, even if she yells and drinks too much. 

I think what I am saying is that part of this is about SD10 carving out space for herself, but for her to want to do this, I think she is looking for a way that mommy can still be the best mommy in the universe without SD10 being bad. That is the totally painful part of the black and white universe--someone has to be bad.  I think that is what SD10 is wrestling with.   

[bravhart1]

Wow, I am always amazed how much your story sounds like mine. We have just one SD6, she spends two nights a week with uBPDm and in that short period  time she manages to do some big damage.

As you said there are BIGGER issues here, too lengthy to go into, that courts and attorneys are working on. But for me the sleeping, eating, enmeshing are the day to day differences that SD6 has such a hard time with.

Our court order says "mom will transition SD6 into her own bed as soon as possible"

That was a year ago. I spend the first two nights back from moms with a six year old next to my bed several times a night saying I can't sleep, can you rub my back, can you give me the sleeping medicine my mom gives me, can I sleep with you?

Each time without fail my answer is the same, you have to learn to sleep on your own. No medicine, no backrubs, no one else in your bed. Before you judge me as being too harsh, please understand that we have been baby stepping this for two years. I have my own brood of kiddos that I raised and am qualified to say, at six she is more than capable of learning to sleep in her own amazing bed just down the hall. She has been told that it is "too scary" for a child to sleep alone by her mom. This undermines her ability and confidence in herself. The therapist has talked with her mom many times, to no avail.

The special master has tried to explain that sleeping and showering (which she also does ) with a child after a certain age creates some sexual feelings and curiosities that should not be there and that it is making her daughter overly sexualized, which she is. She is overly curious about nakedness, etc.

Mommy has also said to SD6 that it's not fair that daddy gets to sleep with bravhart but that they want her ( uBPDM) to sleep alone, she also throws in that when SD6 is at our house she "has" to sleep with SD6's stuffed animals.

I tell SD6 that every child in her class at school sleeps in their bed at home all by themselves and that I want the same things for her as the other children have. The confidence and ability to sleep alone. She has never learned to put herself to sleep at six that's just not ok. At her moms house, mom rubs her back to put her out, and so you see why we are trying to wean her off the backrubs to sleep thing.

It's actually very disruptive, she's tired, cranky, and it ruins my sleep too. She stays up way too late watching adult tv with mom, and sleeps in till noon, then mother of the year gets her coco puffs brought to her by SD6 in bed so they can watch cartoons and snuggle till two.

I also see how this leads to SD6 coming home exhausted and usually sick.

I understand completely when you say you can't ask DH to address it. He's already dealing with the big stuff. But I think this stuff matters too. They need to learn to be normal.

I talk to SD6's therapist. And she encourages mom to do the right thing. (She doesn't) but at least it's documented and I know it's getting addressed in therapy for SD6.

Can you talk to the therapist? Can you paint the picture for your SD of how all the other kids are sleeping at their houses and how you just want the same things for her? Kids don't like to be different, I use that to work in my favor on this issue.

[Thunderstruck]

My SD10's uBPDbm only has a one bedroom apartment and only one bed so they have been sleeping together every night that she's over there for over two years now. SD10 says her mom sleeps naked too. 

We haven't had many issues with SD10 sleeping in her own bed while on our time. She's asked a few times "Why do I have to sleep alone?" and has said that she's afraid. We just state that she has nothing to be afraid of and that sleeping in her own bed is how it's going to be. (We kind of diffuse fears by overexaggerating them to the point of making them silly... .like if she said she's afraid of robbers we would joke that robbers might come in and steal her dirty socks). The best thing we got her was a Dream Light. She gets very comforted by having those lights in her room at night.

She has come to our house very exhausted after time with her mom but I think that's more an issue of her mom not enforcing bed time.

We do have issues with SD10 being enmeshed with her mom. DH and I would like to see her stand up for herself (her needs) more often. However, it must be very scary to be a child and to be raged/blamed by a BPD parent and being afraid that if you did or said the wrong thing then that parental love (which is supposed to be unconditional) might go away. SD10 takes the path of least resistance, which is usually agree with everything mommy says.

I think the things that you are doing are right on par. I think speaking to her therapist would be helpful (is your SD in therapy? I forget). It stinks that you won't be able to change how BPDmom acts while with the kids, or make her see how these things affect the kids.

[catclaw]

hey ennie,

same here with SS7. DH got some mails over the time he's been living with us now, telling him that SS7 needs to sleep in our bed and that whenever he's ill he just needs access to sleeping in her bed and that afterwards no doctor or medicine is needed. She writes to DH about SS7 having high fever and when DH tells her to go to the ER immediately she would write back "at first, i don' have a car to go there. Plus, there's no need to. He's in my bed right now and the fever is gone with the wind. Funny, isn't it?" and stuff like that in similar situations.

When back with us, he would often be afraid of the dark and seeing ghosts ("mom does see them, too and they are real and i'm only safe when i'm with mom".

I asked him what would help him and SS' all-time-favorite-answer is always "i don't know". So I suggested buying another torchlight, maybe with green light as he's a lot into star wars and "green is to fight the bad guys". He didn't want that. He wanted to sleep in our bed. I told him that this is not an option and that with mom the rules may be different but that we will find another solution to fight his fears. My aunt finally gave the idea of putting a plunger (yeah, a plunger) to the side of his bed to be able to shoo them away if he sees them. He loved this idea (maybe that green light thing was too symbolic for him? I don't know) and ever since he has the plunger and told me he never had to use it because the ghosts stayed away.

things SS7's T suggested for that feeling of loneliness at night: We bought him a warmie, a Teddy bear you put into the microwave for 3 mins. It gives a feeling of heaviness and warmth. What she told us that might also help is tucking him into bed really tightly (maybe in a sleeping bag). But that is something that not every kid can stand. Or kind of making a "nest" to cuddle into... .You know, like limiting space in bed to not have "empty space" for someone. These are thing that are also used in working with traumatized people to be able to feel the borders of their body. The first two things work pretty well for SS7, but I guess you should communicate this with SD10.

I wish you all the best, hang in there  

[Sunfl0wer]

Unbelievably difficult situation you are in.  I have been still pissed off and traumatized from the enmeshment of my SD15 and what we went through with her uBPDmom over the years.  Then I came to realize that my bf was uBPD/uNPD too! That poor girl just got used left and right. The emotional incest and alienation, all just horrible!  So sorry that you are in this position! Wow, you sound like you are keeping your cool and doing an excellent job trying to be most supportive!

Do you typically have SD10 and SD14 at the same times?

How does SD14 feel?

Does she respond to her sister in some way about this?

Do the girls share a room at your house?

"nurse" the kids occasionally YEARS after weaning (both kids were weaned at around 2)--up until SD14 was about 12, and SD10

What?  Are you saying they suckled on her dry breast at the age of 12 and 8? I must not be understanding?  If so, didn't the court categorize that as sexual abuse?

I do not have authority to even bring this up with BPD mom

"Yes, when you sleep in the same bed with someone every night and then you are alone in your bed, you really miss them!"  "I hear you are really missing your mommy right now."

Maybe validation for her is more like, "Mommy has taken care of herself for many years before you were in her tummy.  Mommy will miss you but that missing is ok and normal. Mommy knows how to take good care of herself and she will be ok." idk, What do you think?  (just trying to connect the validation around mom being ok without her, giving her permission to be ok in some way. )

Humm, thinking creatively... .

Can SD10 have a couple of girls for a sleep over?  A way for her to be surrounded by fun and enjoy NOT sleeping with an adult?  Then her other friends would help reinforce the correct attachment styles indirectly.

[rarsweet]

Are the girls in therapy?