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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: New Beginnings & Boundaries 2...  (Read 982 times)
MaroonLiquid
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« on: March 02, 2015, 08:23:13 AM »

Here is my old thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271970.0

It's okay.  This is why I have stepped back from our r/s a ton and focused more on the kids.  The problem is, by her avoidance, she is making things more difficult with the kids as shown yesterday.  I am learning to let it go and realize it does no good right now to approach the subject.  Since our car deals went down, she has me split black.  These are her choices and learning to deal with them better and not allowing it to affect me because she doesn't want to deal with them.

Maroon, this does affect you.  How is it affecting you?  Please don't stuff your feelings, they matter!  You matter!

She might not be in a place to hear them and accept them, but we are

It may seem like I'm stuffing my feelings, but trust me, I'm not.  I had a really difficult day Thursday emotionally and dealt with quite a bit then.  I sat with my feelings, accepted that I was having them, and cried through them.  I agree that I do matter and is the main reason I stepped back over two weeks ago.  I want to have a perspective without drama, fear, obligation and guilt.  After getting counsel, I have decided to take my biological children with me this weekend to watch my daughter while my wife is out of town.  I did just want it to be the two of us at first to focus on my relationship with my daughter, but considering where my wife is at the moment, I'm not so sure that it is the best idea.  Lord knows I have been accused of things (abusing her, affair) since my wifes "separation" dysregulation 8 months ago.  I would rather be safe than sorry.  Thoughts?
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2015, 08:40:43 AM »

Didn't you say that your wife's biokids and your biokids liked each other and missed each other a while ago?

Do you expect the reunion to go well?
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2015, 09:16:17 AM »

Didn't you say that your wife's biokids and your biokids liked each other and missed each other a while ago?

Do you expect the reunion to go well?

Yeah, they do miss each other.  The three girls get along really well and are on my softball team together.  I expect the reunion to go fine, and plus, we have softball practice and games next weekend so it will make things easier.  My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2015, 02:51:06 PM »

Didn't you say that your wife's biokids and your biokids liked each other and missed each other a while ago?

Do you expect the reunion to go well?

Yeah, they do miss each other.  The three girls get along really well and are on my softball team together.  I expect the reunion to go fine, and plus, we have softball practice and games next weekend so it will make things easier.  My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   

The other thing is my wife doesn't know yet that I'm bringing my kids, as I told her originally that it wasn't my weekend and that would give me an opportunity for one on one time with our daughter... .
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2015, 03:16:57 PM »

After getting counsel, I have decided to take my biological children with me this weekend to watch my daughter while my wife is out of town.  I did just want it to be the two of us at first to focus on my relationship with my daughter, but considering where my wife is at the moment, I'm not so sure that it is the best idea.  Lord knows I have been accused of things (abusing her, affair) since my wifes "separation" dysregulation 8 months ago.  I would rather be safe than sorry.  Thoughts?

Being safe is a good thing.  Are you concerned she might accuse you of something? 

My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   

This does seem a little strange, but I don't know all of the details either.  If you're concerned she has the  propensity to accuse you of harming her daughter in some way, I might rethink this, Maroon.

What is your gut telling you?
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2015, 03:36:59 PM »

After getting counsel, I have decided to take my biological children with me this weekend to watch my daughter while my wife is out of town.  I did just want it to be the two of us at first to focus on my relationship with my daughter, but considering where my wife is at the moment, I'm not so sure that it is the best idea.  Lord knows I have been accused of things (abusing her, affair) since my wifes "separation" dysregulation 8 months ago.  I would rather be safe than sorry.  Thoughts?

Being safe is a good thing.  Are you concerned she might accuse you of something? 

My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   

This does seem a little strange, but I don't know all of the details either.  If you're concerned she has the  propensity to accuse you of harming her daughter in some way, I might rethink this, Maroon.

What is your gut telling you?

I never had a feeling at all that she would accuse me of something like that.  My "support system" said it is better safe than sorry with what I have gone through.  When my wife first asked me to keep her (before my wife's latest black painting episode after the cars), she asked if I had my kids that weekend.  I said it wasn't my weekend (which it isn't) and told her that that would give me more one on one time with her which would be good.  After the car situation, she asked me if I was still able to keep her or find her another place to go.  I told her I would still keep her and she asked again if I would have my kids.  I said no, and reiterated why that would be good.  She said she would talk to our daughter and see if that is what she wanted.  She said she spoke to our daughter and that our daughter wanted to stay with me.  I said, "Great!"  I was and still am fine keeping her by myself.  It wasn't until I talked to some people in my support system that asked me to consider it.  Some flat out said, "don't do it!", some said, "don't do it unless my daughters are there", some just said, "better to be safe than sorry, because of her unreasonable behavior at times" (people I trust most), and a few said don't worry about it.  My gut is telling me it will be fine, but being safe (having my daughters there) is best considering the circumstances.  Will have to tell my wife if I bring them along.  She hates surprises as most pwBPD do.  I'm sitting at about 95% regarding bringing them.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2015, 03:48:51 PM »

I'm in the "better to be safe than sorry" camp.  Your wife's behavior has been very erratic.  Is this the same daughter that ignored you in the restaurant? (if I'm remembering correctly )

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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2015, 04:24:32 PM »

I'm in the "better to be safe than sorry" camp.  Your wife's behavior has been very erratic.  Is this the same daughter that ignored you in the restaurant? (if I'm remembering correctly )

No, that's the daughter that was very close to me.  She is 16 and always called me Dad.  The one I'm keeping is the 12YO that plays on my softball team.  She has always been pretty close to me also.  They were both at the restaurant obviously, but th 12YO sat at our "team" table.  She didn't ignore me when I talked to her, but didn't say anything when she walked in either.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2015, 05:17:15 PM »

Two thoughts in the "better safe than sorry" category:

1. I'm skeptical that your child as a minor would be very credible as a witness to prove you didn't do something inappropriate to D12. An adult would be more credible.

2. Seems better to tell your wife that your kids are with you... .than to let her hear it from D12.

If you want to present it as something that came up suddenly... .after it was too late to change plans, fine. My thought is that a quick text like "Plans changed; I'm here with my kids and D12 now." sent after your wife lives with the other kids, or after you show up would suffice.

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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2015, 05:30:07 PM »

Two thoughts in the "better safe than sorry" category:

1. I'm skeptical that your child as a minor would be very credible as a witness to prove you didn't do something inappropriate to D12. An adult would be more credible.

Well, they would sleep in a different room in the house together while I slept in my wife's room. 

2. Seems better to tell your wife that your kids are with you... .than to let her hear it from D12.

If you want to present it as something that came up suddenly... .after it was too late to change plans, fine. My thought is that a quick text like "Plans changed; I'm here with my kids and D12 now." sent after your wife lives with the other kids, or after you show up would suffice.

I'm trying to figure out if it's better to say it before or after she leaves.  I still don't think she would accuse me of something like that, but I never thought she would take my car either.   
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2015, 07:12:08 PM »

I'm trying to figure out if it's better to say it before or after she leaves.  I still don't think she would accuse me of something like that, but I never thought she would take my car either.   

I'd keep it on the up and up; why wait on the truth?  There's always that chance she'll get someone else to watch her, but it is her prerogative... .  Plus, if everything works out well and the girls all get along, then it might give her daughter something to really look forward to!  I'm sure she loves you and all, but thinking back to being 12, I might be a little weirded out or uncomfortable about spending a whole weekend with my stepdad that I haven't spent that much time with in eons.

There's another part of me that thinks she might tell you at the last minute that her plans for her daughter have changed.  There's really no telling what to expect, that's why I feel it's important to be totally clear and on the up and up; you can count on yourself and your integrity!
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #11 on: March 03, 2015, 09:56:56 AM »

I might be a little weirded out or uncomfortable about spending a whole weekend with my stepdad that I haven't spent that much time with in eons.

I understand what you mean here to a point, however, we have spent time together, she has been on my softball team, and she still thinks of my kids as her brother and sisters.  Same with the 16 and 17YO the last time I spent with them as a family.  

There's another part of me that thinks she might tell you at the last minute that her plans for her daughter have changed.  There's really no telling what to expect, that's why I feel it's important to be totally clear and on the up and up; you can count on yourself and your integrity!

I agree about keeping it on the up and up.  My integrity is important to me.  I don't think she'll tell me at the last minute (she might, you never know) that I'm not keeping her, because with practice and games this weekend, it will be hard for her to stay with someone who can get her to the fields for them.  Anyway, I want to think that my wife is giving me the opportunity to spend some time with her, but I also realize she doesn't really have anyone else so it could be a little of both.  I'm also supposed to stay with all of the kids when she goes on her business trip in April (plan as of last month).

No, that's the daughter that was very close to me.  She is 16 and always called me Dad.  The one I'm keeping is the 12YO that plays on my softball team.  She has always been pretty close to me also.  They were both at the restaurant obviously, but th 12YO sat at our "team" table.  She didn't ignore me when I talked to her, but didn't say anything when she walked in either.

Wanted to clear something up here... .My 12YO was fine at the restaurant and before when riding there with me from the fields.  It was my 16YO that didn't talk until I spoke.  I think her mom gave her orders not to sit at the "team table" and so she sat somewhere else.  It was strange as we have always been close, but I want her to know that I'm not going to not speak and at the same time, not make her uncomfortable.  I know she is "following" her mom and how she is acting and doesn't want to rock the boat.  What a sad thing for them to have to deal with.  They probably question a lot of things about her and us considering.  I'm sure they question how I can be that bad when their mom and I have been "off and on" for 8 months, when I have been around I have taken care of their mom after surgery and while she was sick, taken care of the kids and their needs and been supportive of them and what they are involved in.  

Also, I feel like my wife and I are in a stubborn stalemate of "not speaking".  I'm trying to stay strong and break the co-dependency issues and rejection issues within me. I have come a long way.  There is a little fear that if I don't contact her, she won't contact me, and that is part of the problem I'm trying to break also.  As a r/s is a two way street, I would like to see her make some effort.  I don't always want to be the first to speak, but I don't want to be stubborn either.  If I text, I almost feel like by holding out she won.  I don't want to think that way, but she knows I love her (she told me she knows).  Thoughts?
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2015, 10:14:31 AM »

Also, by not contacting her, I feel I am holding a boundary that I won't be abused (used, emotional or verbal) any longer... .
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2015, 12:48:32 PM »

So my wife texted and asked if I was still staying with our daughter.  I said yes and we started talking.  Everything was going great.  I validated, validated and validated some more.  She just responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .Nice... .
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2015, 01:07:48 PM »

So my wife texted and asked if I was still staying with our daughter.  I said yes and we started talking.  Everything was going great.  I validated, validated and validated some more.  She just responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .Nice... .

Here is what it was supposed to say... .

So my wife texted and asked if I was still staying with our daughter.  I said yes and we started talking.  Everything was going great.  I validated, validated and validated some more.  I asked her if she was available to get together Thursday for dinner and she responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .That's better than the alternative!  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #15 on: March 03, 2015, 05:25:19 PM »

I asked her if she was available to get together Thursday for dinner and she responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .That's better than the alternative!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I hope you both have a really nice dinner Smiling (click to insert in post)

Will you talk about having your kids for the weekend, too?
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #16 on: March 04, 2015, 07:59:31 AM »

I hope you both have a really nice dinner Smiling (click to insert in post)

Will you talk about having your kids for the weekend, too?

Thank you!  And yes, I will let her know.

Yesterday, we texted for a while until the afternoon.  I was proud of myself for not offering to "rescue" her in some instances.  There was a couple of times where I could tell she was saying something that needed to be done (fence pickets need repair for the dogs to not get out) and felt she was hinting for me to offer to do it.  In the past, I would have offered (enabled her lack) to do it, but instead, I told her I would keep a close eye on the dogs so they would not get out.  It's not that I didn't want to do it, but it isn't my house, therefore not my responsibility.  I was proud of myself for that. 

Quick back story:  over the last 8 months, I have really worked on being able to listen to people, especially my wife, regarding things that they see that I could improve.  I'm really trying to be the best person I can be and that means being able to take constructive criticism without getting defensive or feel like they are attacking me personally.  That comes from my childhood where nothing I did was right.  I have worked hard on this and continue to.

So, last night after our softball game, I called my wife and we talked for about an hour and a half.  She asked if she could share some things with me that she noticed from the game.  I said of course.  She began to tell me things she has noticed (and I do trust her in this regard as I know she wants me to be a good coach) and for about 45 minutes, I LISTENED!  I made sure I validated her a bunch and did my very best to not interrupt her.  The one thing I did was take ME/US out of the equation so that I could properly hear.  I may not have agreed with all of what she said, but never said that.  Instead, if I didn't agree, I would say three things.  One was, "I see where you are coming from", "That's a great point", or "I'm going to think about that one".  Telling her I was going to think about it was rare because she made a ton of good points.  I told her I really appreciate her insight because I know she has the teams best interest at heart (and deep down, she wants me to be a great coach).  She said she really appreciated that I listened because in the past I probably wouldn't have and taken those things personally.  I told her she was right and have really worked on that personally.  We had a great talk and laughed about some things.  I know it doesn't make everything ok, but it is a far cry from the last several weeks. 
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2015, 08:45:14 PM »

The listening and validating was fantastic work. You really are growing and learning a lot!
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2015, 06:22:15 PM »

Quick back story:  over the last 8 months, I have really worked on being able to listen to people, especially my wife, regarding things that they see that I could improve.  I'm really trying to be the best person I can be and that means being able to take constructive criticism without getting defensive or feel like they are attacking me personally.  That comes from my childhood where nothing I did was right.  I have worked hard on this and continue to.

So, last night after our softball game, I called my wife and we talked for about an hour and a half.  She asked if she could share some things with me that she noticed from the game.  I said of course.  She began to tell me things she has noticed (and I do trust her in this regard as I know she wants me to be a good coach) and for about 45 minutes, I LISTENED!  I made sure I validated her a bunch and did my very best to not interrupt her.  The one thing I did was take ME/US out of the equation so that I could properly hear.  I may not have agreed with all of what she said, but never said that.  Instead, if I didn't agree, I would say three things.  One was, "I see where you are coming from", "That's a great point", or "I'm going to think about that one".  Telling her I was going to think about it was rare because she made a ton of good points.  I told her I really appreciate her insight because I know she has the teams best interest at heart (and deep down, she wants me to be a great coach).  She said she really appreciated that I listened because in the past I probably wouldn't have and taken those things personally.  I told her she was right and have really worked on that personally.  We had a great talk and laughed about some things.  I know it doesn't make everything ok, but it is a far cry from the last several weeks. 

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Keep building up these kind of moments! 
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2015, 10:29:33 AM »

The listening and validating was fantastic work. You really are growing and learning a lot!

Thanks.  It is hard sometimes because I have to fight the urge that says, "WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY NEEDS?"  I have learned to separate them and that has taken a lot of focus and work on my part.  When I'm alone, that's when I focus on/do stuff for me.  When I'm spending time/talking with her, I do my very best to make it about her and the kids. 

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Keep building up these kind of moments! 

I will.  Thanks Pheebs... .

     Last night, we went to dinner as a family.  It was only four of us, our oldest son was at work and my kids are with their mom obviously.  We had a good time and laughed a bunch.  After, my wife asked me if I wanted to come back to her house and finalize the details for the weekend.  I said sure.  After we got there my wife and our oldest daughter started packing.  I know to "back off" when she is going out of town because it is stressful for her (as with most pwBPD).  My wife started to get irritated because she couldn't find some things she needed.  She started looking for some gloves and I noticed how messy her house was.  She has always been a "neat freak" about the house (not good at sorting paperwork though as there is always stacks in her office).  She was going through a box in her office that she pulled out of her car looking for her leather gloves and only found one.  She asked our daughter where the other was and she said she lost it.  She sighed pretty loud and looked at me and said, "Why do they not keep better track of stuff they borrow from me?"  I validated how frustrating it is when that happens and she said, "I know!"  I asked her if she would like me to help her and she said snappily, "I don't need your help ML, in fact, you can go home if you need to".  I understood immediately what it was (she was mortified at how messy her house was) and so I didn't respond, instead just left the room and went into the kitchen.  She went into her room and saw three baskets of laundry on the bed.  She started to fold and I jumped in without being asked and started to help her (that was something we always enjoyed doing together as a couple).  She said you don't have to do this, and I responded by saying, I know I don't and continued anyway.  She just smiled and said, "Thank you." 

     Once we were done, it was time to pick up our oldest son from work.  She asked if I wanted to go and I sad yes.  As he came out and walked toward the car, he saw me and rolled his eyes.  I didn't see it, but heard her say, "Wow, son, nice!"  I asked her what happened and she told me.  She then said, "Just don't say anything to him, he's obviously not in a good mood."  I thought to myself, "Instead of ignoring it, why don't you call him out and ask him why he does that and make me uncomfortable?  You don't have a problem with telling me what makes everyone else feel uncomfortable!"  But I just left it alone.  She is allowing him to be a jerk and get away with it, but will worry about that another time (symptom of the bigger issue). 

     When we got back to the house, she got irritated with the older kids because they weren't getting packed.  After getting upset, she went into her room and started packing and I said to her, "Hey, I know traveling is stressful for you and I am willing to help you get packed."  She said, "Why do you say those kind of things to me?  It irritates me!  You act like I can't do anything on my own"  I said, "Of course you can do it on your own.  I just know that getting ready to leave on a trip is stressful for anyone and want to help you."  She calmed down pretty quickly and started telling me what she wanted to take and we went over her outfits together.  She said she felt like she forgot something and I said, "socks?"  She said, "Yes, thank you!"  Once she was done, she said, "Ok, I'm going to bed now."  It seemed rather abrupt, not necessarily rude, but I tried to "understand" what she was really saying.  I focused on the "I'm going to bed now".  I figured she wanted me to leave or she would have asked like in times past, "Can you stay a little longer?" or say, "Will you lay with me for a few?".  I said, "Ok, let me get my stuff"  I grabbed my stuff, put my shoes on, and headed for the door.  She said, "Call me when you get home?"  I said, "Yeah, I will." and she shut the door behind me.  As I was leaving, I realized that was the first time since before we dated that there was no kissing, no physical touch, no "I love yous" that were said, and that was the first time she didn't ask me to stay with her.  It felt completely abnormal.  I did want to to hug and kiss her during the evening, but didn't.  I don't want her to think that's all I care about, want her to make the first move at times, and want to show that I have boundaries also.  I was actually proud of myself even though I didn't know how to take it at first (wondered if she was testing me to see if I would ask to stay or a "rejection" attempt).  I let it go and called her when I got home. We talked on FaceTime for about 45 minutes and then we went to bed.  This morning I texted and asked if they got off okay and she said yes.  She said she really appreciated that I was staying with our daughter and said she needs "dad time".  I validated that, and said that my feelings for them haven't changed.  I then said I would make sure she has a blast.  She didn't respond to that and didn't need her to.
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Relationship status: Separated
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« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2015, 10:55:50 AM »

 Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Great work on your part. Being kind, validating, and supportive--you GOT it.

In fact, I don't think I can give you any better advice than what you've done about that part.

Thanks.  It is hard sometimes because I have to fight the urge that says, "WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY NEEDS?"  I have learned to separate them and that has taken a lot of focus and work on my part.  When I'm alone, that's when I focus on/do stuff for me.  When I'm spending time/talking with her, I do my very best to make it about her and the kids. 

... .

As I was leaving, I realized that was the first time since before we dated that there was no kissing, no physical touch, no "I love yous" that were said, and that was the first time she didn't ask me to stay with her.  It felt completely abnormal.  I did want to to hug and kiss her during the evening, but didn't.  I don't want her to think that's all I care about, want her to make the first move at times, and want to show that I have boundaries also.

 This part... .still sounds really tough on you.

This is where the radical acceptance comes in.

She's not capable of being in an emotionally satisfying relationship with you (or likely anybody else!). She's not capable of meeting your emotional needs.

Pushing her to get your needs for physical contact, either in a friendly/cuddly way or a sexual way seems like a bad idea, at least today.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Boundary enforcement, validation, and focusing your energy on being a parent to her kids, plus building positive experiences with here where there is no conflict seems very very right.

Good results on her part will come of it. How much, how soon? No way to know. She still gets to make her own choices. It has to be tough waiting and watching. 

Meanwhile... .yes, focus on your needs when you are away from her. 
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2015, 01:29:21 PM »

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Great work on your part. Being kind, validating, and supportive--you GOT it.

Lord knows it's taken long enough!

 This part... .still sounds really tough on you.

This is where the radical acceptance comes in.

She's not capable of being in an emotionally satisfying relationship with you (or likely anybody else!). She's not capable of meeting your emotional needs.

I've worked really hard on accepting her for how she is, not just today, but moment to moment.  As she was gone this weekend, I really focused on limited contact with her unless there was something I thought she needed to know and focused on our daughter.  I think that helped both of us some as she didn't feel pressured and knowing she and the kids were on an extremely tight schedule, I didn't worry about her not answering.  I truly went into it with no expectations. 

Pushing her to get your needs for physical contact, either in a friendly/cuddly way or a sexual way seems like a bad idea, at least today.

I didn't "push" any agenda/feelings with texts over the weekend, but was validating, loving and showed I cared.  The only thing that I said remotely like that was yesterday  when on her way home, I told her I was looking forward to seeing her and hearing about their trip.  She said, "Me too!"  Those two words meant a lot in that moment. 

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) Boundary enforcement, validation, and focusing your energy on being a parent to her kids, plus building positive experiences with here where there is no conflict seems very very right.

I wanted to give her the space to have fun (and continue to show independence on my part by not contacting her), and the space for me to focus on our daughter.  We had a blast and my three daughters won our softball game over the weekend in a come from behind victory.  It was awesome.  When my wife got home yesterday evening, she walked in, hugged our daughter, and then came over, gave me a big hug and laid her head on my chest and said, "Thank you so much!"  We then spent the evening talking, watching TV together and then were intimate afterwards.  I'm realizing more and more that boundaries.  I have boundaries now about good and healthy communication, and I am realizing her boundary that when she is done communicating, just let her be without being overly sensitive.  I know right now she is extremely busy and I can validate her by not over-communicating.  In the past with my unhealthiness, I took that as rejection, but I accept that that is all she may be able to handle at the moment.  Being safe for her means not taking something out of context and letting her be with her own decisions (both small and large).  Boundaries aren't always about "laying down the law".  In fact, if always used in that way, they can have an adverse reaction.   

Good results on her part will come of it. How much, how soon? No way to know. She still gets to make her own choices. It has to be tough waiting and watching. 

Meanwhile... .yes, focus on your needs when you are away from her. 

I do believe good results on her part will come.  It is already better, and I look at these moments in a r/s with a  pwBPD like the game of golf.  Golf can be a very frustrating game at times, but in each round you play, you have one or two shots that make you keep coming back for more that make all the frustrations prior worth it. 

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2015, 03:07:34 PM »

There are a couple sides to boundaries.

One side is firm boundary enforcement to protect yourself. (Example: the crap over cars) You need that at times and you have it.

The other usage of boundaries is the internal understanding where you end and where she begins. If everybody has a good understanding of where those boundaries are... .nobody needs to take actions to enforce them. A while back, neither you nor your wife had a very good sense of boundaries.

Your wife still doesn't do very well with them. Maybe she will figure it out. If so, it will be slow, I'm sure. You have to have very good and clear boundaries and be prepared to enforce them to interact with somebody who has such a poor sense of them.

Simply knowing what is "her stuff" and what is "your stuff" doesn't demand harsh enforcement in many cases... .as you are finding out.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Now that you've got your side cleaned up... .you can pay attention to stuff with her. Like noticing that when she's done communicating with you, she isn't going to be very nice or graceful about it... .but if you catch the kinda-ugly hint and give her space (preferably without taking it personally), all will be fine when she's ready to come back.

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« Reply #23 on: March 10, 2015, 03:20:24 PM »

     Last night my wife invited me over and I took our daughter a chocolate shake because of a rough dentist appointment which is one of my "traditions" with my kids.  We spent some of the evening together and laid next to her while she napped.  When she woke up, she had to get some more work done so I told her I would head home, told her and the kids bye, kissed her and left.  We FaceTimed a bit later after I got home and then went to bed.  

    My wife tried to test a texting boundary with me today.  She wanted to discuss where I stood on the washer and dryer (yes, she is trying to see if I'll budge on my boundary again) to get it paid off.  I told her that I would not discuss it over text as it is uncomfortable and from experience, it doesn't end well and nothing gets resolved.  She started to lay it on thick that I wasn't being "transparent and honest"   by putting what I was/wasn't going to do in writing so that I couldn't be "held to something".  She said that is continuing "destructive behavior" that hurts our relationship.  Being cool (click to insert in post)   I validated certain stuff where I could, even saying, I can see that not discussing this over text was frustrating for her.  When I stuck to my guns, validated the frustration and "hurting her in the past" (other stuff she brought up), she said she couldn't "spend anymore time on it right now, but thankful for what we did clarify."  She never got ugly or nasty, so that is good.  I even realized I was calm during the texting whereas in the past, I wouldn't have been.  That is a win for me.  I know this probably sounds sad, but I was proud of myself that even though she did test my boundaries, I stuck to them, was honest about my feelings with her, didn't give in/cave on my boundary.  A few minutes later, I invited her to my daughter's choir concert tonight and she said she is coming, although separately (which is fine).  I thanked her for coming.  She didn't respond and I have backed off.  It is validating for myself to stick to a boundary!
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2015, 04:34:04 PM »

Good progress.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I'm curious about your boundary here though... .

My wife tried to test a texting boundary with me today.  She wanted to discuss where I stood on the washer and dryer (yes, she is trying to see if I'll budge on my boundary again) to get it paid off.  I told her that I would not discuss it over text as it is uncomfortable and from experience, it doesn't end well and nothing gets resolved.

I wouldn't discuss anything inflammatory like that over text.

I don't see anything wrong with boundary enforcement over text. Why didn't you want to say something like this?

"They are your washer and dryer, I am not paying for them."

End of discussion; nothing more for you to say... .about what money you give her for them. If she says something about how she feels, you can validate her feelings... .

Seems to me the better a job you do of communicating that you won't pay for them, the less likely she is to keep asking.

BTW... .did you pick up your laptop when you were in the house last weekend?
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« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2015, 05:08:15 PM »

No, I couldn't find the laptop.  It was there a few days prior.  She obviously hid it.  This is another thing I was going to bring up in any discussion regarding the washer and dryer.  The reason I didn't just say, "They are yours and I won't be paying for them" is because I was trying to have both of those in the same discussion.  Maybe that was naive of me for thinking that, but I felt what she was getting me to do is either bring it up over text or just flat out say no over text so there would be no discussion.  I felt not playing her game while holding a boundary was the better choice.  Thoughts?
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« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2015, 07:43:10 PM »

No, I couldn't find the laptop.  It was there a few days prior.  She obviously hid it.  This is another thing I was going to bring up in any discussion regarding the washer and dryer.  The reason I didn't just say, "They are yours and I won't be paying for them" is because I was trying to have both of those in the same discussion.  Maybe that was naive of me for thinking that, but I felt what she was getting me to do is either bring it up over text or just flat out say no over text so there would be no discussion.  I felt not playing her game while holding a boundary was the better choice.  Thoughts?

This evening, my wife texted me right before my daughter's concert to say she wasn't going to make it.  She then asked if she could get her hope chest from me (she let my son use it years ago as a toy box) on Thursday.  I didn't respond till after the concert and just said, "Sorry you couldn't make the concert.  It was good."  I didn't even touch the hope chest part.  When I didn't respond to that, "She texted and said, "Is Tuesday good?"  She is testing my boundary of not texting about this kind of stuff.  I refuse to get embroiled in her crap.  Extinction burst maybe?   . Do they ever get exhausted from their own stuff?   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2015, 08:28:47 PM »

Why did you set a boundary of not texting about this stuff?

Do phone discussions about it go better?

Do face to face discussions go better?

I find texting / email very good to communicate hard firm logistical things... .and risky for emotional discussions and validation.

Honestly, I think that combining issues like this with your wife is a bad idea when they aren't related... .unless you think it is a good idea to pay off her washer/dryer in order to get your laptop back. 

... .

As far as these things go, think about what you want. Will it bother you or your son to take back her hope chest from its current role as a toy box?
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« Reply #28 on: March 11, 2015, 08:07:37 AM »

Why did you set a boundary of not texting about this stuff?

Do phone discussions about it go better?

Do face to face discussions go better?

I find texting / email very good to communicate hard firm logistical things... .and risky for emotional discussions and validation.

    The reason I set this boundary is because she uses the medium of texting as a buffer to control conversations with me.  This is all about control.  That way, if she doesn't like my response, she can go "silent", not have to deal with reality, and therefore it stays as "the elephant in the room".  Face to face and phone discussions have gone better, with face to face being the most productive.  

    Perfect example was yesterday regarding the washer/dryer.  When I wouldn't back off of not discussing it, she then used what she thought would hurt me by not coming to my daughters concert at the last minute and asking for her hope chest back (used as son's toy box).  I asked her to help me understand why she wanted it back all of a sudden?  She said, "I don't have to tell you.  It's mine, I want it back, it's my personal property before we were married and I will pick it up Thursday."  I asked if she was bringing my laptop and she said no as that is community property and the chest is her personal property.  I told her she knew that wasn't true as I bought that with my student loan and having to pay that back.  I asked her, "Can you help me to understand why you expect something of me that you aren't willing to do yourself?"  Her response was, "HA!  My question exactly!" (What the heck?  Smiling (click to insert in post)  It's like the, "I know you are but what am I" Pee Wee Herman bit)  I asked her what she meant by that and then told her that my decisions and compromises I've made the last 8 months speak for themselves have been to improve our r/s, and those can't be argued.  Her response, "I want my trunk by Friday."  (OK, I'll get right on that  Smiling (click to insert in post))  I then told her this wasn't about the hope chest, that this was actually about the w/d and that she didn't want to spend part of her bonus next week to pay it off.  I validated that and told her I was willing to discuss it when she was ready.  She responded with, "This is about the last 5 years.  I want my trunk by Friday."  I validated that our marriage and the last 5 years were important to me too and exactly why we should work together on these things and go to counseling together.  I again told her I was willing to talk about it when she was ready.  She said, "I've asked you to go to counseling with me since our first year of marriage.  It's never happened.  People do what they want to do and don't do what they don't want to do.  I won't be held hostage anymore... ."  (Pot, meet kettle... .)  I validated that by saying she was right.  People do do what they want to.  Us not getting it at the beginning was not a good choice.  I told her that in the last 8 months I have made two appointments based on when she was available, made her aware of them and she didn't make either one.  I told her I was still willing to.  I also said, "You aren't a hostage.  You are free to make your own decisions.  I don't want to be apart from you and I don't believe you want to be apart from me either.  Loving each other is an important first step in fixing what seems broken.  As we both know, counseling isn't always easy and can seem scary.  I'm committed to making our marriage all that it can be."  Her response was, "Too little too late.  Good night."     I said, "Good night".  She wasn't nasty, but tried to throw things at me 90 miles an hour and never bit, but instead validated carefully.  I felt I did good.

Honestly, I think that combining issues like this with your wife is a bad idea when they aren't related... .unless you think it is a good idea to pay off her washer/dryer in order to get your laptop back.  

... .

As far as these things go, think about what you want. Will it bother you or your son to take back her hope chest from its current role as a toy box?

I won't combine these things either.  To me, she wants me to pay off the w/d (which I won't do while separated and not working on our relationship).  The laptop (she thinks) is her only leverage in that.  She thinks I want it back bad enough that I'll offer, or eventually she will.  I won't offer or take the deal.  
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #29 on: March 11, 2015, 09:00:08 AM »

Uhm, you are letting her combine the issues.

What do YOU want about the hope chest? Will it upset your son to give it back to her? [I'm assuming that this is a non-issue with you and your son.]

I think the best thing to do with her is to honor any reasonable requests from her, even if she is doing them as a mindgame.

When you refuse to give her the hope chest back, (or refuse to discuss it) you are letting her shift the argument back away from either the W/D or the laptop.

If you said "I'll have my son's stuff out of the hope chest this evening. You can pick it up at my apartment after that." she wouldn't have that as a distraction from the other issues!
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