New Beginnings & Boundaries 2...

[MaroonLiquid]

Here is my old thread... .https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=271970.0

It's okay.  This is why I have stepped back from our r/s a ton and focused more on the kids.  The problem is, by her avoidance, she is making things more difficult with the kids as shown yesterday.  I am learning to let it go and realize it does no good right now to approach the subject.  Since our car deals went down, she has me split black.  These are her choices and learning to deal with them better and not allowing it to affect me because she doesn't want to deal with them.

Maroon, this does affect you.  How is it affecting you?  Please don't stuff your feelings, they matter!  You matter!

She might not be in a place to hear them and accept them, but we are

It may seem like I'm stuffing my feelings, but trust me, I'm not.  I had a really difficult day Thursday emotionally and dealt with quite a bit then.  I sat with my feelings, accepted that I was having them, and cried through them.  I agree that I do matter and is the main reason I stepped back over two weeks ago.  I want to have a perspective without drama, fear, obligation and guilt.  After getting counsel, I have decided to take my biological children with me this weekend to watch my daughter while my wife is out of town.  I did just want it to be the two of us at first to focus on my relationship with my daughter, but considering where my wife is at the moment, I'm not so sure that it is the best idea.  Lord knows I have been accused of things (abusing her, affair) since my wifes "separation" dysregulation 8 months ago.  I would rather be safe than sorry.  Thoughts?

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[Grey Kitty]

Didn't you say that your wife's biokids and your biokids liked each other and missed each other a while ago?

Do you expect the reunion to go well?

[MaroonLiquid]

Didn't you say that your wife's biokids and your biokids liked each other and missed each other a while ago?

Do you expect the reunion to go well?

Yeah, they do miss each other.  The three girls get along really well and are on my softball team together.  I expect the reunion to go fine, and plus, we have softball practice and games next weekend so it will make things easier.  My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   

[MaroonLiquid]

Didn't you say that your wife's biokids and your biokids liked each other and missed each other a while ago?

Do you expect the reunion to go well?

Yeah, they do miss each other.  The three girls get along really well and are on my softball team together.  I expect the reunion to go fine, and plus, we have softball practice and games next weekend so it will make things easier.  My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   

The other thing is my wife doesn't know yet that I'm bringing my kids, as I told her originally that it wasn't my weekend and that would give me an opportunity for one on one time with our daughter... .

[123Phoebe]

After getting counsel, I have decided to take my biological children with me this weekend to watch my daughter while my wife is out of town.  I did just want it to be the two of us at first to focus on my relationship with my daughter, but considering where my wife is at the moment, I'm not so sure that it is the best idea.  Lord knows I have been accused of things (abusing her, affair) since my wifes "separation" dysregulation 8 months ago.  I would rather be safe than sorry.  Thoughts?

Being safe is a good thing.  Are you concerned she might accuse you of something? 

My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   

This does seem a little strange, but I don't know all of the details either.  If you're concerned she has the  propensity to accuse you of harming her daughter in some way, I might rethink this, Maroon.

What is your gut telling you?

[MaroonLiquid]

After getting counsel, I have decided to take my biological children with me this weekend to watch my daughter while my wife is out of town.  I did just want it to be the two of us at first to focus on my relationship with my daughter, but considering where my wife is at the moment, I'm not so sure that it is the best idea.  Lord knows I have been accused of things (abusing her, affair) since my wifes "separation" dysregulation 8 months ago.  I would rather be safe than sorry.  Thoughts?

Being safe is a good thing.  Are you concerned she might accuse you of something? 

My concern of getting one on one time with my daughter is not really a concern anymore as my girls will have to go back with their mom for a couple of hours Saturday for my son's birthday party that my ex-wife is throwing (I throw separate parties for them so that it isn't weird).  It's just strange/funny that I am about to stay with her for the weekend and my wife and I barely speak.   

This does seem a little strange, but I don't know all of the details either.  If you're concerned she has the  propensity to accuse you of harming her daughter in some way, I might rethink this, Maroon.

What is your gut telling you?

I never had a feeling at all that she would accuse me of something like that.  My "support system" said it is better safe than sorry with what I have gone through.  When my wife first asked me to keep her (before my wife's latest black painting episode after the cars), she asked if I had my kids that weekend.  I said it wasn't my weekend (which it isn't) and told her that that would give me more one on one time with her which would be good.  After the car situation, she asked me if I was still able to keep her or find her another place to go.  I told her I would still keep her and she asked again if I would have my kids.  I said no, and reiterated why that would be good.  She said she would talk to our daughter and see if that is what she wanted.  She said she spoke to our daughter and that our daughter wanted to stay with me.  I said, "Great!"  I was and still am fine keeping her by myself.  It wasn't until I talked to some people in my support system that asked me to consider it.  Some flat out said, "don't do it!", some said, "don't do it unless my daughters are there", some just said, "better to be safe than sorry, because of her unreasonable behavior at times" (people I trust most), and a few said don't worry about it.  My gut is telling me it will be fine, but being safe (having my daughters there) is best considering the circumstances.  Will have to tell my wife if I bring them along.  She hates surprises as most pwBPD do.  I'm sitting at about 95% regarding bringing them.

[123Phoebe]

I'm in the "better to be safe than sorry" camp.  Your wife's behavior has been very erratic.  Is this the same daughter that ignored you in the restaurant? (if I'm remembering correctly )

[MaroonLiquid]

I'm in the "better to be safe than sorry" camp.  Your wife's behavior has been very erratic.  Is this the same daughter that ignored you in the restaurant? (if I'm remembering correctly )

No, that's the daughter that was very close to me.  She is 16 and always called me Dad.  The one I'm keeping is the 12YO that plays on my softball team.  She has always been pretty close to me also.  They were both at the restaurant obviously, but th 12YO sat at our "team" table.  She didn't ignore me when I talked to her, but didn't say anything when she walked in either.

[Grey Kitty]

Two thoughts in the "better safe than sorry" category:

1. I'm skeptical that your child as a minor would be very credible as a witness to prove you didn't do something inappropriate to D12. An adult would be more credible.

2. Seems better to tell your wife that your kids are with you... .than to let her hear it from D12.

If you want to present it as something that came up suddenly... .after it was too late to change plans, fine. My thought is that a quick text like "Plans changed; I'm here with my kids and D12 now." sent after your wife lives with the other kids, or after you show up would suffice.

[MaroonLiquid]

Two thoughts in the "better safe than sorry" category:

1. I'm skeptical that your child as a minor would be very credible as a witness to prove you didn't do something inappropriate to D12. An adult would be more credible.

Well, they would sleep in a different room in the house together while I slept in my wife's room. 

2. Seems better to tell your wife that your kids are with you... .than to let her hear it from D12.

If you want to present it as something that came up suddenly... .after it was too late to change plans, fine. My thought is that a quick text like "Plans changed; I'm here with my kids and D12 now." sent after your wife lives with the other kids, or after you show up would suffice.

I'm trying to figure out if it's better to say it before or after she leaves.  I still don't think she would accuse me of something like that, but I never thought she would take my car either.   

[123Phoebe]

I'm trying to figure out if it's better to say it before or after she leaves.  I still don't think she would accuse me of something like that, but I never thought she would take my car either.   

I'd keep it on the up and up; why wait on the truth?  There's always that chance she'll get someone else to watch her, but it is her prerogative... .  Plus, if everything works out well and the girls all get along, then it might give her daughter something to really look forward to!  I'm sure she loves you and all, but thinking back to being 12, I might be a little weirded out or uncomfortable about spending a whole weekend with my stepdad that I haven't spent that much time with in eons.

There's another part of me that thinks she might tell you at the last minute that her plans for her daughter have changed.  There's really no telling what to expect, that's why I feel it's important to be totally clear and on the up and up; you can count on yourself and your integrity!

[MaroonLiquid]

I might be a little weirded out or uncomfortable about spending a whole weekend with my stepdad that I haven't spent that much time with in eons.

I understand what you mean here to a point, however, we have spent time together, she has been on my softball team, and she still thinks of my kids as her brother and sisters.  Same with the 16 and 17YO the last time I spent with them as a family.  

There's another part of me that thinks she might tell you at the last minute that her plans for her daughter have changed.  There's really no telling what to expect, that's why I feel it's important to be totally clear and on the up and up; you can count on yourself and your integrity!

I agree about keeping it on the up and up.  My integrity is important to me.  I don't think she'll tell me at the last minute (she might, you never know) that I'm not keeping her, because with practice and games this weekend, it will be hard for her to stay with someone who can get her to the fields for them.  Anyway, I want to think that my wife is giving me the opportunity to spend some time with her, but I also realize she doesn't really have anyone else so it could be a little of both.  I'm also supposed to stay with all of the kids when she goes on her business trip in April (plan as of last month).

No, that's the daughter that was very close to me.  She is 16 and always called me Dad.  The one I'm keeping is the 12YO that plays on my softball team.  She has always been pretty close to me also.  They were both at the restaurant obviously, but th 12YO sat at our "team" table.  She didn't ignore me when I talked to her, but didn't say anything when she walked in either.

Wanted to clear something up here... .My 12YO was fine at the restaurant and before when riding there with me from the fields.  It was my 16YO that didn't talk until I spoke.  I think her mom gave her orders not to sit at the "team table" and so she sat somewhere else.  It was strange as we have always been close, but I want her to know that I'm not going to not speak and at the same time, not make her uncomfortable.  I know she is "following" her mom and how she is acting and doesn't want to rock the boat.  What a sad thing for them to have to deal with.  They probably question a lot of things about her and us considering.  I'm sure they question how I can be that bad when their mom and I have been "off and on" for 8 months, when I have been around I have taken care of their mom after surgery and while she was sick, taken care of the kids and their needs and been supportive of them and what they are involved in.  

Also, I feel like my wife and I are in a stubborn stalemate of "not speaking".  I'm trying to stay strong and break the co-dependency issues and rejection issues within me. I have come a long way.  There is a little fear that if I don't contact her, she won't contact me, and that is part of the problem I'm trying to break also.  As a r/s is a two way street, I would like to see her make some effort.  I don't always want to be the first to speak, but I don't want to be stubborn either.  If I text, I almost feel like by holding out she won.  I don't want to think that way, but she knows I love her (she told me she knows).  Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

Also, by not contacting her, I feel I am holding a boundary that I won't be abused (used, emotional or verbal) any longer... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So my wife texted and asked if I was still staying with our daughter.  I said yes and we started talking.  Everything was going great.  I validated, validated and validated some more.  She just responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .Nice... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So my wife texted and asked if I was still staying with our daughter.  I said yes and we started talking.  Everything was going great.  I validated, validated and validated some more.  She just responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .Nice... .

Here is what it was supposed to say... .

So my wife texted and asked if I was still staying with our daughter.  I said yes and we started talking.  Everything was going great.  I validated, validated and validated some more.  I asked her if she was available to get together Thursday for dinner and she responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .That's better than the alternative! 

[123Phoebe]

I asked her if she was available to get together Thursday for dinner and she responded and said Sure... .and gave me a time she was available... .That's better than the alternative! 

I hope you both have a really nice dinner

Will you talk about having your kids for the weekend, too?

[MaroonLiquid]

I hope you both have a really nice dinner

Will you talk about having your kids for the weekend, too?

Thank you!  And yes, I will let her know.

Yesterday, we texted for a while until the afternoon.  I was proud of myself for not offering to "rescue" her in some instances.  There was a couple of times where I could tell she was saying something that needed to be done (fence pickets need repair for the dogs to not get out) and felt she was hinting for me to offer to do it.  In the past, I would have offered (enabled her lack) to do it, but instead, I told her I would keep a close eye on the dogs so they would not get out.  It's not that I didn't want to do it, but it isn't my house, therefore not my responsibility.  I was proud of myself for that. 

Quick back story:  over the last 8 months, I have really worked on being able to listen to people, especially my wife, regarding things that they see that I could improve.  I'm really trying to be the best person I can be and that means being able to take constructive criticism without getting defensive or feel like they are attacking me personally.  That comes from my childhood where nothing I did was right.  I have worked hard on this and continue to.

So, last night after our softball game, I called my wife and we talked for about an hour and a half.  She asked if she could share some things with me that she noticed from the game.  I said of course.  She began to tell me things she has noticed (and I do trust her in this regard as I know she wants me to be a good coach) and for about 45 minutes, I LISTENED!  I made sure I validated her a bunch and did my very best to not interrupt her.  The one thing I did was take ME/US out of the equation so that I could properly hear.  I may not have agreed with all of what she said, but never said that.  Instead, if I didn't agree, I would say three things.  One was, "I see where you are coming from", "That's a great point", or "I'm going to think about that one".  Telling her I was going to think about it was rare because she made a ton of good points.  I told her I really appreciate her insight because I know she has the teams best interest at heart (and deep down, she wants me to be a great coach).  She said she really appreciated that I listened because in the past I probably wouldn't have and taken those things personally.  I told her she was right and have really worked on that personally.  We had a great talk and laughed about some things.  I know it doesn't make everything ok, but it is a far cry from the last several weeks. 

[Grey Kitty]

The listening and validating was fantastic work. You really are growing and learning a lot!

[123Phoebe]

Quick back story:  over the last 8 months, I have really worked on being able to listen to people, especially my wife, regarding things that they see that I could improve.  I'm really trying to be the best person I can be and that means being able to take constructive criticism without getting defensive or feel like they are attacking me personally.  That comes from my childhood where nothing I did was right.  I have worked hard on this and continue to.

So, last night after our softball game, I called my wife and we talked for about an hour and a half.  She asked if she could share some things with me that she noticed from the game.  I said of course.  She began to tell me things she has noticed (and I do trust her in this regard as I know she wants me to be a good coach) and for about 45 minutes, I LISTENED!  I made sure I validated her a bunch and did my very best to not interrupt her.  The one thing I did was take ME/US out of the equation so that I could properly hear.  I may not have agreed with all of what she said, but never said that.  Instead, if I didn't agree, I would say three things.  One was, "I see where you are coming from", "That's a great point", or "I'm going to think about that one".  Telling her I was going to think about it was rare because she made a ton of good points.  I told her I really appreciate her insight because I know she has the teams best interest at heart (and deep down, she wants me to be a great coach).  She said she really appreciated that I listened because in the past I probably wouldn't have and taken those things personally.  I told her she was right and have really worked on that personally.  We had a great talk and laughed about some things.  I know it doesn't make everything ok, but it is a far cry from the last several weeks. 

  Keep building up these kind of moments! 

[MaroonLiquid]

The listening and validating was fantastic work. You really are growing and learning a lot!

Thanks.  It is hard sometimes because I have to fight the urge that says, "WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY NEEDS?"  I have learned to separate them and that has taken a lot of focus and work on my part.  When I'm alone, that's when I focus on/do stuff for me.  When I'm spending time/talking with her, I do my very best to make it about her and the kids. 

  Keep building up these kind of moments! 

I will.  Thanks Pheebs... .

     Last night, we went to dinner as a family.  It was only four of us, our oldest son was at work and my kids are with their mom obviously.  We had a good time and laughed a bunch.  After, my wife asked me if I wanted to come back to her house and finalize the details for the weekend.  I said sure.  After we got there my wife and our oldest daughter started packing.  I know to "back off" when she is going out of town because it is stressful for her (as with most pwBPD).  My wife started to get irritated because she couldn't find some things she needed.  She started looking for some gloves and I noticed how messy her house was.  She has always been a "neat freak" about the house (not good at sorting paperwork though as there is always stacks in her office).  She was going through a box in her office that she pulled out of her car looking for her leather gloves and only found one.  She asked our daughter where the other was and she said she lost it.  She sighed pretty loud and looked at me and said, "Why do they not keep better track of stuff they borrow from me?"  I validated how frustrating it is when that happens and she said, "I know!"  I asked her if she would like me to help her and she said snappily, "I don't need your help ML, in fact, you can go home if you need to".  I understood immediately what it was (she was mortified at how messy her house was) and so I didn't respond, instead just left the room and went into the kitchen.  She went into her room and saw three baskets of laundry on the bed.  She started to fold and I jumped in without being asked and started to help her (that was something we always enjoyed doing together as a couple).  She said you don't have to do this, and I responded by saying, I know I don't and continued anyway.  She just smiled and said, "Thank you." 

     Once we were done, it was time to pick up our oldest son from work.  She asked if I wanted to go and I sad yes.  As he came out and walked toward the car, he saw me and rolled his eyes.  I didn't see it, but heard her say, "Wow, son, nice!"  I asked her what happened and she told me.  She then said, "Just don't say anything to him, he's obviously not in a good mood."  I thought to myself, "Instead of ignoring it, why don't you call him out and ask him why he does that and make me uncomfortable?  You don't have a problem with telling me what makes everyone else feel uncomfortable!"  But I just left it alone.  She is allowing him to be a jerk and get away with it, but will worry about that another time (symptom of the bigger issue). 

     When we got back to the house, she got irritated with the older kids because they weren't getting packed.  After getting upset, she went into her room and started packing and I said to her, "Hey, I know traveling is stressful for you and I am willing to help you get packed."  She said, "Why do you say those kind of things to me?  It irritates me!  You act like I can't do anything on my own"  I said, "Of course you can do it on your own.  I just know that getting ready to leave on a trip is stressful for anyone and want to help you."  She calmed down pretty quickly and started telling me what she wanted to take and we went over her outfits together.  She said she felt like she forgot something and I said, "socks?"  She said, "Yes, thank you!"  Once she was done, she said, "Ok, I'm going to bed now."  It seemed rather abrupt, not necessarily rude, but I tried to "understand" what she was really saying.  I focused on the "I'm going to bed now".  I figured she wanted me to leave or she would have asked like in times past, "Can you stay a little longer?" or say, "Will you lay with me for a few?".  I said, "Ok, let me get my stuff"  I grabbed my stuff, put my shoes on, and headed for the door.  She said, "Call me when you get home?"  I said, "Yeah, I will." and she shut the door behind me.  As I was leaving, I realized that was the first time since before we dated that there was no kissing, no physical touch, no "I love yous" that were said, and that was the first time she didn't ask me to stay with her.  It felt completely abnormal.  I did want to to hug and kiss her during the evening, but didn't.  I don't want her to think that's all I care about, want her to make the first move at times, and want to show that I have boundaries also.  I was actually proud of myself even though I didn't know how to take it at first (wondered if she was testing me to see if I would ask to stay or a "rejection" attempt).  I let it go and called her when I got home. We talked on FaceTime for about 45 minutes and then we went to bed.  This morning I texted and asked if they got off okay and she said yes.  She said she really appreciated that I was staying with our daughter and said she needs "dad time".  I validated that, and said that my feelings for them haven't changed.  I then said I would make sure she has a blast.  She didn't respond to that and didn't need her to.

[Grey Kitty]

  Great work on your part. Being kind, validating, and supportive--you GOT it.

In fact, I don't think I can give you any better advice than what you've done about that part.

Thanks.  It is hard sometimes because I have to fight the urge that says, "WHAT ABOUT ME AND MY NEEDS?"  I have learned to separate them and that has taken a lot of focus and work on my part.  When I'm alone, that's when I focus on/do stuff for me.  When I'm spending time/talking with her, I do my very best to make it about her and the kids. 

... .

As I was leaving, I realized that was the first time since before we dated that there was no kissing, no physical touch, no "I love yous" that were said, and that was the first time she didn't ask me to stay with her.  It felt completely abnormal.  I did want to to hug and kiss her during the evening, but didn't.  I don't want her to think that's all I care about, want her to make the first move at times, and want to show that I have boundaries also.

 This part... .still sounds really tough on you.

This is where the radical acceptance comes in.

She's not capable of being in an emotionally satisfying relationship with you (or likely anybody else!). She's not capable of meeting your emotional needs.

Pushing her to get your needs for physical contact, either in a friendly/cuddly way or a sexual way seems like a bad idea, at least today.

Boundary enforcement, validation, and focusing your energy on being a parent to her kids, plus building positive experiences with here where there is no conflict seems very very right.

Good results on her part will come of it. How much, how soon? No way to know. She still gets to make her own choices. It has to be tough waiting and watching. 

Meanwhile... .yes, focus on your needs when you are away from her. 

[MaroonLiquid]

Great work on your part. Being kind, validating, and supportive--you GOT it.

Lord knows it's taken long enough!

 This part... .still sounds really tough on you.

This is where the radical acceptance comes in.

She's not capable of being in an emotionally satisfying relationship with you (or likely anybody else!). She's not capable of meeting your emotional needs.

I've worked really hard on accepting her for how she is, not just today, but moment to moment.  As she was gone this weekend, I really focused on limited contact with her unless there was something I thought she needed to know and focused on our daughter.  I think that helped both of us some as she didn't feel pressured and knowing she and the kids were on an extremely tight schedule, I didn't worry about her not answering.  I truly went into it with no expectations. 

Pushing her to get your needs for physical contact, either in a friendly/cuddly way or a sexual way seems like a bad idea, at least today.

I didn't "push" any agenda/feelings with texts over the weekend, but was validating, loving and showed I cared.  The only thing that I said remotely like that was yesterday  when on her way home, I told her I was looking forward to seeing her and hearing about their trip.  She said, "Me too!"  Those two words meant a lot in that moment. 

Boundary enforcement, validation, and focusing your energy on being a parent to her kids, plus building positive experiences with here where there is no conflict seems very very right.

I wanted to give her the space to have fun (and continue to show independence on my part by not contacting her), and the space for me to focus on our daughter.  We had a blast and my three daughters won our softball game over the weekend in a come from behind victory.  It was awesome.  When my wife got home yesterday evening, she walked in, hugged our daughter, and then came over, gave me a big hug and laid her head on my chest and said, "Thank you so much!"  We then spent the evening talking, watching TV together and then were intimate afterwards.  I'm realizing more and more that boundaries.  I have boundaries now about good and healthy communication, and I am realizing her boundary that when she is done communicating, just let her be without being overly sensitive.  I know right now she is extremely busy and I can validate her by not over-communicating.  In the past with my unhealthiness, I took that as rejection, but I accept that that is all she may be able to handle at the moment.  Being safe for her means not taking something out of context and letting her be with her own decisions (both small and large).  Boundaries aren't always about "laying down the law".  In fact, if always used in that way, they can have an adverse reaction.   

Good results on her part will come of it. How much, how soon? No way to know. She still gets to make her own choices. It has to be tough waiting and watching. 

Meanwhile... .yes, focus on your needs when you are away from her. 

I do believe good results on her part will come.  It is already better, and I look at these moments in a r/s with a  pwBPD like the game of golf.  Golf can be a very frustrating game at times, but in each round you play, you have one or two shots that make you keep coming back for more that make all the frustrations prior worth it. 

[Grey Kitty]

There are a couple sides to boundaries.

One side is firm boundary enforcement to protect yourself. (Example: the crap over cars) You need that at times and you have it.

The other usage of boundaries is the internal understanding where you end and where she begins. If everybody has a good understanding of where those boundaries are... .nobody needs to take actions to enforce them. A while back, neither you nor your wife had a very good sense of boundaries.

Your wife still doesn't do very well with them. Maybe she will figure it out. If so, it will be slow, I'm sure. You have to have very good and clear boundaries and be prepared to enforce them to interact with somebody who has such a poor sense of them.

Simply knowing what is "her stuff" and what is "your stuff" doesn't demand harsh enforcement in many cases... .as you are finding out.

 Now that you've got your side cleaned up... .you can pay attention to stuff with her. Like noticing that when she's done communicating with you, she isn't going to be very nice or graceful about it... .but if you catch the kinda-ugly hint and give her space (preferably without taking it personally), all will be fine when she's ready to come back.

[MaroonLiquid]

     Last night my wife invited me over and I took our daughter a chocolate shake because of a rough dentist appointment which is one of my "traditions" with my kids.  We spent some of the evening together and laid next to her while she napped.  When she woke up, she had to get some more work done so I told her I would head home, told her and the kids bye, kissed her and left.  We FaceTimed a bit later after I got home and then went to bed.  

    My wife tried to test a texting boundary with me today.  She wanted to discuss where I stood on the washer and dryer (yes, she is trying to see if I'll budge on my boundary again) to get it paid off.  I told her that I would not discuss it over text as it is uncomfortable and from experience, it doesn't end well and nothing gets resolved.  She started to lay it on thick that I wasn't being "transparent and honest"   by putting what I was/wasn't going to do in writing so that I couldn't be "held to something".  She said that is continuing "destructive behavior" that hurts our relationship.     I validated certain stuff where I could, even saying, I can see that not discussing this over text was frustrating for her.  When I stuck to my guns, validated the frustration and "hurting her in the past" (other stuff she brought up), she said she couldn't "spend anymore time on it right now, but thankful for what we did clarify."  She never got ugly or nasty, so that is good.  I even realized I was calm during the texting whereas in the past, I wouldn't have been.  That is a win for me.  I know this probably sounds sad, but I was proud of myself that even though she did test my boundaries, I stuck to them, was honest about my feelings with her, didn't give in/cave on my boundary.  A few minutes later, I invited her to my daughter's choir concert tonight and she said she is coming, although separately (which is fine).  I thanked her for coming.  She didn't respond and I have backed off.  It is validating for myself to stick to a boundary!

[Grey Kitty]

Good progress. 

I'm curious about your boundary here though... .

My wife tried to test a texting boundary with me today.  She wanted to discuss where I stood on the washer and dryer (yes, she is trying to see if I'll budge on my boundary again) to get it paid off.  I told her that I would not discuss it over text as it is uncomfortable and from experience, it doesn't end well and nothing gets resolved.

I wouldn't discuss anything inflammatory like that over text.

I don't see anything wrong with boundary enforcement over text. Why didn't you want to say something like this?

"They are your washer and dryer, I am not paying for them."

End of discussion; nothing more for you to say... .about what money you give her for them. If she says something about how she feels, you can validate her feelings... .

Seems to me the better a job you do of communicating that you won't pay for them, the less likely she is to keep asking.

BTW... .did you pick up your laptop when you were in the house last weekend?

[MaroonLiquid]

No, I couldn't find the laptop.  It was there a few days prior.  She obviously hid it.  This is another thing I was going to bring up in any discussion regarding the washer and dryer.  The reason I didn't just say, "They are yours and I won't be paying for them" is because I was trying to have both of those in the same discussion.  Maybe that was naive of me for thinking that, but I felt what she was getting me to do is either bring it up over text or just flat out say no over text so there would be no discussion.  I felt not playing her game while holding a boundary was the better choice.  Thoughts?

[MaroonLiquid]

No, I couldn't find the laptop.  It was there a few days prior.  She obviously hid it.  This is another thing I was going to bring up in any discussion regarding the washer and dryer.  The reason I didn't just say, "They are yours and I won't be paying for them" is because I was trying to have both of those in the same discussion.  Maybe that was naive of me for thinking that, but I felt what she was getting me to do is either bring it up over text or just flat out say no over text so there would be no discussion.  I felt not playing her game while holding a boundary was the better choice.  Thoughts?

This evening, my wife texted me right before my daughter's concert to say she wasn't going to make it.  She then asked if she could get her hope chest from me (she let my son use it years ago as a toy box) on Thursday.  I didn't respond till after the concert and just said, "Sorry you couldn't make the concert.  It was good."  I didn't even touch the hope chest part.  When I didn't respond to that, "She texted and said, "Is Tuesday good?"  She is testing my boundary of not texting about this kind of stuff.  I refuse to get embroiled in her crap.  Extinction burst maybe?   . Do they ever get exhausted from their own stuff?  

[Grey Kitty]

Why did you set a boundary of not texting about this stuff?

Do phone discussions about it go better?

Do face to face discussions go better?

I find texting / email very good to communicate hard firm logistical things... .and risky for emotional discussions and validation.

Honestly, I think that combining issues like this with your wife is a bad idea when they aren't related... .unless you think it is a good idea to pay off her washer/dryer in order to get your laptop back. 

... .

As far as these things go, think about what you want. Will it bother you or your son to take back her hope chest from its current role as a toy box?

[MaroonLiquid]

Why did you set a boundary of not texting about this stuff?

Do phone discussions about it go better?

Do face to face discussions go better?

I find texting / email very good to communicate hard firm logistical things... .and risky for emotional discussions and validation.

    The reason I set this boundary is because she uses the medium of texting as a buffer to control conversations with me.  This is all about control.  That way, if she doesn't like my response, she can go "silent", not have to deal with reality, and therefore it stays as "the elephant in the room".  Face to face and phone discussions have gone better, with face to face being the most productive.  

    Perfect example was yesterday regarding the washer/dryer.  When I wouldn't back off of not discussing it, she then used what she thought would hurt me by not coming to my daughters concert at the last minute and asking for her hope chest back (used as son's toy box).  I asked her to help me understand why she wanted it back all of a sudden?  She said, "I don't have to tell you.  It's mine, I want it back, it's my personal property before we were married and I will pick it up Thursday."  I asked if she was bringing my laptop and she said no as that is community property and the chest is her personal property.  I told her she knew that wasn't true as I bought that with my student loan and having to pay that back.  I asked her, "Can you help me to understand why you expect something of me that you aren't willing to do yourself?"  Her response was, "HA!  My question exactly!" (What the heck?    It's like the, "I know you are but what am I" Pee Wee Herman bit)  I asked her what she meant by that and then told her that my decisions and compromises I've made the last 8 months speak for themselves have been to improve our r/s, and those can't be argued.  Her response, "I want my trunk by Friday."  (OK, I'll get right on that  )  I then told her this wasn't about the hope chest, that this was actually about the w/d and that she didn't want to spend part of her bonus next week to pay it off.  I validated that and told her I was willing to discuss it when she was ready.  She responded with, "This is about the last 5 years.  I want my trunk by Friday."  I validated that our marriage and the last 5 years were important to me too and exactly why we should work together on these things and go to counseling together.  I again told her I was willing to talk about it when she was ready.  She said, "I've asked you to go to counseling with me since our first year of marriage.  It's never happened.  People do what they want to do and don't do what they don't want to do.  I won't be held hostage anymore... ."  (Pot, meet kettle... .)  I validated that by saying she was right.  People do do what they want to.  Us not getting it at the beginning was not a good choice.  I told her that in the last 8 months I have made two appointments based on when she was available, made her aware of them and she didn't make either one.  I told her I was still willing to.  I also said, "You aren't a hostage.  You are free to make your own decisions.  I don't want to be apart from you and I don't believe you want to be apart from me either.  Loving each other is an important first step in fixing what seems broken.  As we both know, counseling isn't always easy and can seem scary.  I'm committed to making our marriage all that it can be."  Her response was, "Too little too late.  Good night."     I said, "Good night".  She wasn't nasty, but tried to throw things at me 90 miles an hour and never bit, but instead validated carefully.  I felt I did good.

Honestly, I think that combining issues like this with your wife is a bad idea when they aren't related... .unless you think it is a good idea to pay off her washer/dryer in order to get your laptop back.  

... .

As far as these things go, think about what you want. Will it bother you or your son to take back her hope chest from its current role as a toy box?

I won't combine these things either.  To me, she wants me to pay off the w/d (which I won't do while separated and not working on our relationship).  The laptop (she thinks) is her only leverage in that.  She thinks I want it back bad enough that I'll offer, or eventually she will.  I won't offer or take the deal.  

[Grey Kitty]

Uhm, you are letting her combine the issues.

What do YOU want about the hope chest? Will it upset your son to give it back to her? [I'm assuming that this is a non-issue with you and your son.]

I think the best thing to do with her is to honor any reasonable requests from her, even if she is doing them as a mindgame.

When you refuse to give her the hope chest back, (or refuse to discuss it) you are letting her shift the argument back away from either the W/D or the laptop.

If you said "I'll have my son's stuff out of the hope chest this evening. You can pick it up at my apartment after that." she wouldn't have that as a distraction from the other issues!

[Grey Kitty]

BTW, was that conversation you related all by text? If so, she really yanked you into exactly what you say you don't want to do by text!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Uhm, you are letting her combine the issues.

What do YOU want about the hope chest? Will it upset your son to give it back to her? [I'm assuming that this is a non-issue with you and your son.]

I think the best thing to do with her is to honor any reasonable requests from her, even if she is doing them as a mindgame.

My issue with "honoring this request" is I have honored many of her requests and she still won't honor mine.  I'm done honoring requests, jumping through hoops and playing her games.  She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her requests.  In r/s you have to compromise and r/s are a two way street.  She expects something of me that she isn't willing to do (at the moment).  If she wants something going forward, she will have to step up to the plate regarding our r/s or get a divorce.  I'm done bending.  That's why she won't talk about it because she knows that is what I'm going to say.  She knows I'm much stronger.  She knows going to counseling she would look like a fool when they ask her why she continues keeping my laptop.  She doesn't want to answer the tough questions.

BTW, was that conversation you related all by text? If so, she really yanked you into exactly what you say you don't want to do by text!

It was by text.  I was proving my point.  :)id I send a mixed message?  I guess I did.  I was trying to show that I can put everything I want aside to "compromise" and that she is still unwilling to.  I proved my point.  And yes, I also proved she could pull me back into it... .Ultimately, I didn't bend and thats why she gave up.  Sometimes in life, you have to take the good with the bad.  

[MaroonLiquid]

Uhm, you are letting her combine the issues.

What do YOU want about the hope chest? Will it upset your son to give it back to her? [I'm assuming that this is a non-issue with you and your son.]

I think the best thing to do with her is to honor any reasonable requests from her, even if she is doing them as a mindgame.

My issue with "honoring this request" is I have honored many of her requests and she still won't honor mine.  I'm done honoring requests, jumping through hoops and playing her games.  She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her requests.  In r/s you have to compromise and r/s are a two way street.  She expects something of me that she isn't willing to do (at the moment).  If she wants something going forward, she will have to step up to the plate regarding our r/s or get a divorce.  I'm done bending.  That's why she won't talk about it because she knows that is what I'm going to say.  She knows I'm much stronger.  She knows going to counseling she would look like a fool when they ask her why she continues keeping my laptop.  She doesn't want to answer the tough questions.

BTW, was that conversation you related all by text? If so, she really yanked you into exactly what you say you don't want to do by text!

It was by text.  I was proving my point.  Did I send a mixed message?  I guess I did.  I was trying to show that I can put everything I want aside to "compromise" and that she is still unwilling to.  I proved my point.  And yes, I also proved she could pull me back into it... .Ultimately, I didn't bend and thats why she gave up.  Sometimes in life, you have to take the good with the bad. 

Well, I guess how I handled things on text last night worked as we are talking today and I'm not getting the silent treatment.  I think what she needed was a bunch of validation last night and I gave her that.

[Grey Kitty]

First, I'm very glad to hear that your validation helped the situation.   Keep up the good work!

My issue with "honoring this request" is I have honored many of her requests and she still won't honor mine.  I'm done honoring requests, jumping through hoops and playing her games.

Nope, I don't see it that way at all.

You honor her reasonable requests because you are an honorable and reasonable person. Because you don't want to look at yourself in the bathroom mirror tomorrow morning and have to look at a guy who is holding his wife's hope chest hostage. I'm not accusing you of this... .her message on the hope chest is kinda confusing and mixed, and figuring out what the good, honorable thing to do about it is a good bit more complicated.

She has taken your laptop (and your car!). She isn't behaving in a good fashion. If she ever does some self-examination, she will feel really horrible about dozens of things she's done to you. It may never happen; or it may come for an instant and vanish in the next one. Not your issue.

If you only do the right thing with her out of hope that she will do the right thing back at you, you are being a lesser person than I know you are capable of.

She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her requests.  In r/s you have to compromise and r/s are a two way street.  She expects something of me that she isn't willing to do (at the moment).  If she wants something going forward, she will have to step up to the plate regarding our r/s or get a divorce.  I'm done bending.  That's why she won't talk about it because she knows that is what I'm going to say.  She knows I'm much stronger.  She knows going to counseling she would look like a fool when they ask her why she continues keeping my laptop.  She doesn't want to answer the tough questions.

Yes, her life will be immensely better if she learns these things.

No, you cannot teach them to her.

The more energy you put into trying to get her to learn things, the more miserable you will be. I guarantee that!

[MaroonLiquid]

First, I'm very glad to hear that your validation helped the situation.    Keep up the good work!

Thanks.  I realized last night it isn't the full on silent treatment, instead, she has retreated to the "cryptic text only" phase.  Everything was fine I think until she "remembered" she was mad at me.     Example: She was talking to me about grocery shopping Friday.  I asked when she wanted to go... .No response.  I made a suggestion of going to a resort for a couple of days next month as a family, and she responded, "We're going to the lake this weekend.  I'm so excited!" (Almost as if to say, "You aren't going" as if rubbing it in my face)        No response about my stuff.  I said, "That's good!  Y'all will have fun."  I asked what she was going to do until they left town and her response was, "I have "plans" and a lot on my to do list."  I asked her what she was looking to get accomplished and no response.  So she is obviously mad... .

Because you don't want to look at yourself in the bathroom mirror tomorrow morning and have to look at a guy who is holding his wife's hope chest hostage. I'm not accusing you of this... .

    I'm not holding it hostage, but at the same time, I feel giving into every demand of hers is not ok.  I feel this is backlash for not giving into her about the washer and dryer.  I'm also thinking, why should I be accomodating and give her everything she wants like I have for 8 months?  Yes, I feel I am a good person, good husband and good father, and have shown that repeatedly.  I continue to by being there for her and the kids.  

    Everyone has their limits.  A part of me wants to drop it off on her doorstep with all of the pictures of us, things from our marriage that I've held on to, cards and stuff she has given me, etc. inside and let her open it after I leave with a note that says, "I've included anything that reminds me of who I thought you were.  A person that valued God, our marriage, our children, and the vision we shared for our future.  I realize now that person doesn't exists."  

    Would I do that?  Absolutely not.  That's cruel, not who I am, and frankly, I love her too much to hurt her like that.  There are times where I do feel that way.  A part of me wants to hold on to the chest because it reminds me of those very things I want to throw in her face and continue to believe that she will get help and will work toward those things at some point again.  The thought of giving it back does hurt.  I can always buy something else for my son's toys and I know that.  

... .her message on the hope chest is kinda confusing and mixed... .

Yeah, it's a way to hurt me, I think, because she knows what it's used for... .

She has taken your laptop (and your car!). She isn't behaving in a good fashion. If she ever does some self-examination, she will feel really horrible about dozens of things she's done to you... .

I know you can't predict that, but do you think it will happen?  I do.  In some of her self-pity times, she has said things that show she understands what she has done and even apologized for a few of them.  And it seems just as quick (maybe when she deals with the truth and pain of it), she splits back to her, "I never did that to you." garbage.

    I know that the tone of this response is pretty ugly and dark on my part, but trying to be honest about what I feel at times so that I can deal with those... .It gets me stronger and therefore I won't use them against her when we are together.

[Grey Kitty]

She has taken your laptop (and your car!). She isn't behaving in a good fashion. If she ever does some self-examination, she will feel really horrible about dozens of things she's done to you... .

I know you can't predict that, but do you think it will happen?  I do.  In some of her self-pity times, she has said things that show she understands what she has done and even apologized for a few of them.  And it seems just as quick (maybe when she deals with the truth and pain of it), she splits back to her, "I never did that to you." garbage.

DUDE. Not your problem. Her problem.

One of my supportive friends has a great phrase about questions like this:

There is no cheese at the end of that maze

Really. Wondering if she will figure it out, hoping she will, etc. None of it will help either you or her.

I can think of two things you can do to help her get to this place.

• Radical acceptance -- She isn't there, not even close. Accept her for who she is, and how she is behaving right now.



• Personal growth -- Work on what you can, yourself. Build your capacity to be compassionate, to not take her crap personally, your healthy boundaries, behaving in an honorable and trustworthy way, etc.

Both of these things will ultimately give her space for her own personal growth and actually apply pressure on her in that direction. And it only works if you do them for yourself, not as a way to get her to grow... .it is almost a paradox.

BTW... .this... .below... .that you shared it is a far better thing than you realize!

A part of me wants to drop it off on her doorstep with all of the pictures of us, things from our marriage that I've held on to, cards and stuff she has given me, etc. inside and let her open it after I leave with a note that says, "I've included anything that reminds me of who I thought you were.  A person that valued God, our marriage, our children, and the vision we shared for our future.  I realize now that person doesn't exists." 

That you WANT to do things like that now and again is honest, real, and natural. That you CHOOSE not to do them is what makes you a good person.  I've been on 10-day silent meditation retreats. Part way in, the teacher has short (15~30 minute) individual conferences. She related that she has heard MANY people say this to her after a few days of listening to their own thoughts: "But I used to think I was a good person!"

[MaroonLiquid]

There is no cheese at the end of that maze.

Really. Wondering if she will figure it out, hoping she will, etc. None of it will help either you or her.

Good point.  I really need to let those things GOO... .

I can think of two things you can do to help her get to this place.

• Radical acceptance -- She isn't there, not even close. Accept her for who she is, and how she is behaving right now.

I do accept her for who she is.  The behavior is what I have an issue with.  The back and forth stuff, the creating a problem where there is none, etc. gets oold... .

• Personal growth -- Work on what you can, yourself. Build your capacity to be compassionate, to not take her crap personally, your healthy boundaries, behaving in an honorable and trustworthy way, etc.

I do feel I am and have been doing that.  I feel I am very compassionate with her, and at times, too compassionate. I have a hard time (not as much recently) not taking her crap personally, but doing much better with that.  I feel my behavior is a lot better than it used to be and part of that comes from my personal growth.

Both of these things will ultimately give her space for her own personal growth and actually apply pressure on her in that direction. And it only works if you do them for yourself, not as a way to get her to grow... .it is almost a paradox.

i do believe this is why things are MUCH better than they were even a few short months ago.

BTW... .this... .below... .that you shared it is a far better thing than you realize!

A part of me wants to drop it off on her doorstep with all of the pictures of us, things from our marriage that I've held on to, cards and stuff she has given me, etc. inside and let her open it after I leave with a note that says, "I've included anything that reminds me of who I thought you were.  A person that valued God, our marriage, our children, and the vision we shared for our future.  I realize now that person doesn't exists." 

That you WANT to do things like that now and again is honest, real, and natural. That you CHOOSE not to do them is what makes you a good person.  I've been on 10-day silent meditation retreats. Part way in, the teacher has short (15~30 minute) individual conferences. She related that she has heard MANY people say this to her after a few days of listening to their own thoughts: "But I used to think I was a good person!"

It's hard admitting that stuff... .

She actually texted me first today and said "she didn't hear her phone as she left it in another room last night".  I guess that is an apology?   

[Grey Kitty]

• Radical acceptance -- She isn't there, not even close. Accept her for who she is, and how she is behaving right now.

I do accept her for who she is.  The behavior is what I have an issue with.  The back and forth stuff, the creating a problem where there is none, etc. gets oold... .

... .

She actually texted me first today and said "she didn't hear her phone as she left it in another room last night".  I guess that is an apology?  

Yep. All things for you to accept.

She goes back and forth and creates issues where there are none.

She doesn't have what it takes to give a sincere apology. (with perhaps one exception per year!)

She might leave her phone in the other room... .or she might for her own reasons decide not to respond to you at the time, and then say that she didn't hear her phone, rather than own her behavior.

Yep. All frustrating and sucky too. But that is who she is and what she does.

And if you want to be a parent to her children, or have any relationship with her, accept these things and don't take it personally. Yes, she *IS* aiming it at you directly, but it really isn't about you at all.

[MaroonLiquid]

And if you want to be a parent to her children, or have any relationship with her, accept these things and don't take it personally. Yes, she *IS* aiming it at you directly, but it really isn't about you at all.

I am learning what "radical acceptance" really means on a daily basis.  Radical is the right word.

     Last night was pretty good with my wife and kids.  It started as I went over to her house and she was getting ready for us to go to Girl Scout Cookie "shop" for our D16 (will get her Gold award at the end of the year).  While my wife was getting ready, we were talking and having fun.  My wife said, "I feel like we are dating.  Do you know what I mean?"  I said, "Not really, but I would like to.  Explain what you mean."  She said, "It just feels like we are in the dating stage, which feels different because we didn't really date very long."  I took that as a good thing, because when you are dating, you have that "excitement period" (I guess she is painting me white).  I validated it, shared her how I felt and shortly after that, we left. 

     While my daughter was selling (D16 hates this part!    Not only soes she not like trying to sell them and talking to strangers, her being popular in school doesn't help either), my wife and I spent some time talking and having fun.  She invited me to the lake this weekend with them for the day on Saturday and I said I would love to.  I think part of her felt bad as the other night she made it sound like a "her and the kids only" deal, and then the kids were talking about who they could take.  I acted completely nonchalant and didn't really feel awkward about it at all.  If she didn't ask me, it wouldn't have been a big deal in the end.  Then she asked me where her and I could go on a vacation and I said let's go on a cruise.  I took it jokingly in the moment because other than our honeymoon, we could never agree (actually she would always make an excuse about why we couldn't do it and it was usually about the kids and not being fair to them  ).  We talked about it shortly and then moved on to a different topic.  A bit later, she started to get really irritated with our D12 who was "making fun" of people's responses and the way they walk.  One area where I have really backed off in the last 8 months is when her kids act up, I step back and let her take care of it.  She told me that she felt I was "parenting over the top of her" (months ago), when it was actually her most of the time.

     After the event, she asked me what I was doing for my son's birthday.  I said, "We are taking him to a trampoline park".  She said, "Who all is coming?" and I said, "It's just the eight of us, I didn't invite my family this time."  She said, "Well, I was going to say I probably wouldn't go if your mom was going to be there.  She was horrible to me in front of people (not true, actually she is the one that created a scene)."  I told her, "I can see why her confronting got you angry.  Frankly, I am angry with her also and have told her how inappropriate she was to confront you at our daughter's game.  That wasn't the place for it nor will I tolerate that from my family.  If they can't behave themselves, they won't be invited.  I'm very sorry she did that.  It will get better."  I could tell she was starting to get triggered when she said, "No it won't because I won't be around her.  She obviously doesn't know the whole story and I did nothing wrong.     (I was thinking to myself, "Honey, you know she does, you know you did and that bothers you."  I could tell it started to trigger her as she obviously looks at that mentally as another reason we won't work.  I told her in the car in front of the kids, "Honey, what my mom did by confonting you was wrong and there is no excuse for it.  She has boundary issues.  I won't be around my mom either if she can't respect my boundaries.  You are my wife and these are my kids.  My first responsibility is taking care of y'all and protecting you guys.  I can assure you, I won't let her do that to you again."  I beleive with that validation and when one of our daughters brought up something else (glad she did), she was calm again.  At the house, when we were talking alone, I told her, "Honey, we have to do our very best to separate the issues with our parents from the issues of us.  It is difficult because a lot of who we are stems from how we grew up."  She said, "It's no wonder we have the issues we do."  She was calm and a little later, I mentioned my mom got in a car accident (minor) earlier that day with a small bus.  She went total projection mode and said, "You can't do bad things to people and expect it not to come around on you."  I validated and said, "You're absolutely right honey.  Consequences from our actions are tough to deal with, but that is how we learn!" and she said, "Yep!" with an upbeat tone.  I stayed for about an hour and then went home.  Today we are going shopping and having lunch together.   All in all, a good day.  One thing I'm learning is how to detect and deflect triggers much better so that they don't turn into full out dysregulations.  She hasn't full on dysregulated in a while which is progress.

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

You have been doing some great work lately!

What is status of the laptop and the chest/box thing?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon,

You have been doing some great work lately!

What is status of the laptop and the chest/box thing?

FF

The status of the laptop and chest is... .There is no status.  I still don't have my laptop and she didn't ask for her chest again.

     We went to the lake on Saturday and had a great time!  We went out in a boat and we just relaxed and the kids tubed. My wife and I bonded and I bonded with the kids.  I even bonded with my son who has been pretty angry the last 8-9 months.  I helped him fish and we even laughed.  He even said bye to me the other night which he hasn't done in about 10 months.  My wife asked me if I could stay with the kids when she has to go out of town next month for business and I said sure.  That night we were all extremely tired and my wife was falling asleep. I decided to go home and my wife asked me why.  I told her I needed to go and do some laundry.  She seemed ok and I came home.

     Yesterday, my wife asked if I wanted to go grocery shopping with her and then go to a financial and debt-free class at church with her and I said yes.  We went to the store and then took our son to work.  Right after that, we went to the class and it started out great.  There was all these couples who were working toward the same goals, discussing things and then there was my wife and I.  There was this moment where there was this "one minute break" where we were supposed to discuss what we took away from the last segment of video.  All the other couples were all discussing and my wife wrote down her thoughts, but didn't ask me for mine.  This is where it got strange for me.  I realized now why I thought she invited me and why she actually invited me where possibly two different things.  When it was over, she told me some sob story that she may have to trade her new car in or sell it to get something she could afford as the payment was too high.  She said that it was a bad decision on her part financially because she "didn't have all the information" and if she could go back she would do it differently.  I validated how hard it is to come to that decision and she then brought up the washer and dryer (nice Segway on her part  ).  I told her that under the circumstances, and the fact that I hadn't used them in nine months that it wasn't fair to ask me to pay for any of it and I wasn't going to.  I then told her how being in that debt free class was strange considering our circumstances.  I told her how I felt that we're attending something that couples who are working toward the same goals do and that it's awkward because I feel we are on two separate ends of the spectrum.  She asked that our bills are separate so why is it strange? (Funny how they don't see the irony in their own crap). I told her to hold out her left hand, and I put mine next to it.  I said, "This is what I'm talking about.  I'm wearing my wedding ring and you aren't.  You can't expect me to continue to fork over money when you aren't giving me the same respect."  She said she thinks she understands what I'm saying and I said for her to tell me so that I know she understands.  She said that she thinks that I won't pay for the washer and dryer if we aren't "working on the marriage".  I told her I wouldn't pay for them as long as we were separated.  I told her I feel like our marriage is a "carrot" she is dangling in front of me.  I told her I feel she keeps throwing "issues" and bills at me so that we never actually get anything resolved.  I told her "I'm not ok with that anymore because if we want our marriage to work, we should be doing everything we can to make it work, including going to counseling.  All these "issues" are symptoms of the elephant in the room.  If we actually work towards the same goals that those issues would work themselves out.  I asked her why she is doing that?  She said she can't get to a place where we can work on the marriage until those things are taken care of.  I did validate that, also adding that how she felt wasn't wrong.  I told her that I see things differently, but to make a marriage work, we have to compromise.  She said that's all she does.   I was laughing inside and was like, "What?   ). She said that with paying for the cruise that "my kids and I enjoyed" that she is trying to recoup some of her losses (so damn tired of hearing that).  I told her that I think it's ridiculous in the fact that all I provided and paid for throughout our marriage.  I brought up the fact that I have provided insurance throughout that saved her tons of money, paid every single car note out of my check for two and a half years including 7 months during our separation.  The difference in her and I is that I don't throw things in her face, I did them because I love her and the kids.  She said, "You and I have quite a different view on love".  I responded with, "Yeah, I don't keep score about what I paid for and throw it up to you when I get angry".  At this point, I didn't care anymore about validation and just said how I feel.  That's when she told me to leave her house (Kids were in their room).  We didn't yell, but still ended the same.  She throws a fit when she doesn't get her way, and that is getting old.  I am also back in the silent treatment, but I am good though.  I feel better because I'm not stuffing things anymore and therefore not walking on eggshells.  I could have changed the subject, but if I did that, I would have felt like I was stuffing it.  A decision I made that knew there may be some fallout.

[formflier]

 

How are things now?

[Grey Kitty]

Well... .at least you just re-hashed all the prior financial crap, one more time. Doesn't sound like either of you learned anything new during it, except that perhaps she figured out she can't afford her current car payment.

It also doesn't sound like a horrible dysregulation on her part.

I'm wondering if you went wrong here:

my wife asked if I wanted to go to a financial and debt-free class at church with her and I said yes.

You don't have joint finances with her anymore. You don't want to give her your money. You don't want to rescue her financially. You aren't the right person to teach her how to be more financially responsible... .and you know that you get into fights with her over money... .and you seem to already be doing fine at managing your own finances (except occasionally where she is concerned   )

What sort of good outcome where you hoping for?

Can you practice boundary enforcement on shutting down those sort of conversations whenever she asks you for funds for something?

"We are do not have shared finances anymore; I'm not interested in talking about 'X' with you."

And for the sake of your marriage... .please be less invalidating about money... .you do NOT need to convince her that you are right about what money you owe her or don't owe her. You do NOT need to convince her that what you are doing is fair. You do NOT need to get her to agree to it.

Not giving her money is a boundary enforcement action on your part. You should NEVER expect her to like it or agree with it.

Your only job on boundary enforcement is to convince her that you aren't going to pay her bills. (W/D, car payment, whatever).

The more firm and consistent you are about it, the faster she will believe you aren't going to pay and stop asking.



The time with your kids sounded great, especially your son  I hope you do take care of her kids when she goes away next month, and are able to see them occasionally.

[MaroonLiquid]

How are things now?

Well, I tried texting her and no response, so for the moment, getting the ST... .

Well... .at least you just re-hashed all the prior financial crap, one more time. Doesn't sound like either of you learned anything new during it, except that perhaps she figured out she can't afford her current car payment.

It also doesn't sound like a horrible dysregulation on her part.

I think she is learning I'm not giving in.  And yes, it wasn't a bad dysregulation.  I think I was more dysregulated than she was.   

I'm wondering if you went wrong here:

my wife asked if I wanted to go to a financial and debt-free class at church with her and I said yes.

You don't have joint finances with her anymore. You don't want to give her your money. You don't want to rescue her financially. You aren't the right person to teach her how to be more financially responsible... .and you know that you get into fights with her over money... .and you seem to already be doing fine at managing your own finances (except occasionally where she is concerned   )

What sort of good outcome where you hoping for?

I guess I misread her motives.  Thinking maybe she was thinking more in terms of family... .I learned my lesson!   

Can you practice boundary enforcement on shutting down those sort of conversations whenever she asks you for funds for something?

"We are do not have shared finances anymore; I'm not interested in talking about 'X' with you."

And for the sake of your marriage... .please be less invalidating about money... .you do NOT need to convince her that you are right about what money you owe her or don't owe her. You do NOT need to convince her that what you are doing is fair. You do NOT need to get her to agree to it.

Not giving her money is a boundary enforcement action on your part. You should NEVER expect her to like it or agree with it.

Your only job on boundary enforcement is to convince her that you aren't going to pay her bills. (W/D, car payment, whatever).

The more firm and consistent you are about it, the faster she will believe you aren't going to pay and stop asking.



The time with your kids sounded great, especially your son  I hope you do take care of her kids when she goes away next month, and are able to see them occasionally.

I fully plan to take care of them next month.  I'm looking forward to it.  My wife knows I want to see them and even cried when we were talking about me bonding with my son on Saturday. 

[formflier]

When it was over, she told me some sob story that she may have to trade her new car in or sell it to get something she could afford as the payment was too high.  She said that it was a bad decision on her part financially because she "didn't have all the information" and if she could go back she would do it differently.  I validated how hard it is to come to that decision and she then brought up the washer and dryer (nice Segway on her part  ).  I told her that under the circumstances, and the fact that I hadn't used them in nine months that it wasn't fair to ask me to pay for any of it and I wasn't going to. 

ML,

So... .I could see where the joint class would have been nice... .if it had gone in a certain direction.  You were not totally off base there... .but certainly a bit optimistic... .IMO.

Even if you both went... .and did individual work... .or just a tiny bit of joint... maybe that would have been ok... .touch weird... .but not bad.

However... .look at the highlighted part.

I think this is where you need to do some thinking about the future.

Was validating the wrong approach? 

How about switching subjects... .?

Basically... .she mentions money and you ?  Do what?

I think that is the question... .the answer should be consistent... .

I'm bad about wanting to try to "prove my point"... .and getting into a rehash.  I've gotten a bit better... .and want to keep getting better.

GK's point... .and my experience... .is that rarely things have swung my way.

I would say 10% of the time there has been a good outcome from rehash... .

Not good odds... .

FF

[formflier]

 

ML,

You've had some great times with your family lately.

What is the "next step" for your journey to a healthier place (or whatever you call where you are heading)

Maybe that is a good question as well... .where are you headed?

Goal here is to focus... .clarify... .figure out what is next... .

[MaroonLiquid]

ML,

So... .I could see where the joint class would have been nice... .if it had gone in a certain direction.  You were not totally off base there... .but certainly a bit optimistic... .IMO.  Even if you both went... .and did individual work... .or just a tiny bit of joint... maybe that would have been ok... .touch weird... .but not bad.

This is why at first I didn't balk, because I "thought" it was progress toward being one again.  And I believe with a part of her, that was what it was.  But maybe that is a bit too optimistic also... .

Was validating the wrong approach?

Quite possibly.  I thought validation was never wrong, but I can see where there is a possible "gray" area now... . 

How about switching subjects... .?

This is where I have trouble when it comes to this subject... .I'm pretty good with validation, but changing subjects seems invalidating... .

Basically... .she mentions money and you ?  Do what?

Get nervous, palms get sweaty and ABSOLUTELY HATE this subject.  I can see where she picks up on that.

ML,

You've had some great times with your family lately.

What is the "next step" for your journey to a healthier place (or whatever you call where you are heading)

Maybe that is a good question as well... .where are you headed?

Goal here is to focus... .clarify... .figure out what is next... .

I think we are in a much better place than we were 8 months ago.  But there wasn't really anywhere to go but up.     What's important for me and for the past few months is for the kids to see me, and therefore us, in a much healthier place than we were.  They see their mom and I affectionate with one another, and they see me staying calm, and loving.  Here is where I am headed: 

1. Setting firmer boundaries when it comes to "bills".

2. Continuing to focus on all the kids.

3. Allowing my wife the ability to grow herself.

[Grey Kitty]

Quite possibly.  I thought validation was never wrong, but I can see where there is a possible "gray" area now... . 

Validation is not 'wrong', with one caveat: Don't validate the invalid. If she believes something that isn't true, don't validate that. Feelings are never wrong, and can always be validated.

This is where I have trouble when it comes to this subject... .I'm pretty good with validation, but changing subjects seems invalidating... .

The tool I've been recommending is boundary enforcement, instead of validation in these situations.

There is *NOTHING* validating about boundary enforcement actions. They are often mildly invalidating, sometimes neither validating or invalidating. Remember--you wouldn't be doing it unless you had a reason to protect yourself from her actions that are harmful to her--Your whole reason for doing this is to stop her from accomplishing what she wants to accomplish. It doesn't matter how justified you are, or how justified she is... .she isn't going to like it!

98% validation + 2% invalidation has the same effect as 0% validation + 2% invalidation... .in other words, using validation to take some of the 'sting' out of boundary enforcement just doesn't work. Save your validation energy for times when she is receptive.

[formflier]

 

You may want to make a mental note... and practice.

When she talks about money... .do what?

Same with washer dryer

Same with cars.

Response doesn't need to be harsh... .but... .you clearly need to avoid the issue (s) and note jade over why.

What other "things" get talked about that are like cars and washer dryer.

Any new stuff on that box she wanted from you.

Are you considering the laptop a goner?

Anything else of yours that she has... that you need/want back?

[MaroonLiquid]

Quite possibly.  I thought validation was never wrong, but I can see where there is a possible "gray" area now... . 

Validation is not 'wrong', with one caveat: Don't validate the invalid. If she believes something that isn't true, don't validate that. Feelings are never wrong, and can always be validated.

This is where I have trouble when it comes to this subject... .I'm pretty good with validation, but changing subjects seems invalidating... .

The tool I've been recommending is boundary enforcement, instead of validation in these situations.

There is *NOTHING* validating about boundary enforcement actions. They are often mildly invalidating, sometimes neither validating or invalidating. Remember--you wouldn't be doing it unless you had a reason to protect yourself from her actions that are harmful to her--Your whole reason for doing this is to stop her from accomplishing what she wants to accomplish. It doesn't matter how justified you are, or how justified she is... .she isn't going to like it!

98% validation + 2% invalidation has the same effect as 0% validation + 2% invalidation... .in other words, using validation to take some of the 'sting' out of boundary enforcement just doesn't work. Save your validation energy for times when she is receptive.

Yeah, I see what you are saying... .It shouldn't matter what her reaction is if it is a boundary with me.  More than likely an extinction burst will come of it anyway... .

You may want to make a mental note... and practice.

When she talks about money... .do what?

Same with washer dryer

Same with cars.

Response doesn't need to be harsh... .but... .you clearly need to avoid the issue (s) and note jade over why.

What about this... ."I will not talk about these things without a qualified 3rd party present.  I won't do it."

What other "things" get talked about that are like cars and washer dryer.

That's pretty much it.

Any new stuff on that box she wanted from you.

Nope... .That was a diversion/extinction burst to get a rise out of me and get me to discuss something.  I didn't see what it was when it happened.

Are you considering the laptop a goner?

Anything else of yours that she has... that you need/want back?

No, I'm not.  I know she still has it and the laptop is all I'm concerned with for now.

[formflier]

 

OK... laptop.  You haven't had it for a long time... .do you need it?  I would guess not.  My recommendation... .consider it a goner.

You do need to think through what you say if she gives it back... .with no deal... just a kindness thing.

Also need to think through what to say if she wants to make a "deal" with it.  Hmmm... .seem like I've made deals before... .and Grey keeps asking me how those went... .I wonder why?  

Or... .if it is an issue and you want it back... .then devise a strategy.  (I don't recommend this... .but it's your choice.)

Bottom line:  If this truly is the last "item"... .be aware of this and don't let this be a trigger point... .

I think your response for washer dryer talk  (or money talk)... .is a good starting point.

I'm wondering if SET is a good format... .with the T being "We have discussed this (or should  you say "settled" this matter before.  I would be willing to discuss it in MC if you want to discuss it further.  We could call and make an appointment now."  The last sentence is a little edgy. 

You can work on the SE part.

I would like to see some others discuss a simpler... .pure boundary enforcement model.  "We've discussed this before... .I have nothing further to add."

Any contact with her in last day or two?

[MaroonLiquid]

OK... laptop.  You haven't had it for a long time... .do you need it?  I would guess not.  My recommendation... .consider it a goner.

You do need to think through what you say if she gives it back... .with no deal... just a kindness thing.

Also need to think through what to say if she wants to make a "deal" with it.  Hmmm... .seem like I've made deals before... .and Grey keeps asking me how those went... .I wonder why?  

Or... .if it is an issue and you want it back... .then devise a strategy.  (I don't recommend this... .but it's your choice.)

Bottom line:  If this truly is the last "item"... .be aware of this and don't let this be a trigger point... .

I think your response for washer dryer talk  (or money talk)... .is a good starting point.

I'm wondering if SET is a good format... .with the T being "We have discussed this (or should  you say "settled" this matter before.  I would be willing to discuss it in MC if you want to discuss it further.  We could call and make an appointment now."  The last sentence is a little edgy.  

You can work on the SE part.

I would like to see some others discuss a simpler... .pure boundary enforcement model.  "We've discussed this before... .I have nothing further to add."

Any contact with her in last day or two?

Good points on all that.  I will think on those things.

There was some light contact initiated by her night before last when she texted me about a mutual friend that had passed away (wondering if I knew) Saturday while we were at the lake (we didn't find out until Monday on Facebook around the same time).  I responded that I had heard.  Yesterday morning I texted her when I found out what exactly happened and we responded back and forth for a few and then she didn't respond further.  I haven't texted since.  Our daughter was supposed to be at practice last night but she didn't make it and I didn't hear from them.  Usually she tells me if she can't make it or asks (sometimes I ask if she needs me to) if I can pick her up... .She didn't yesterday.  I didn't chase either nor did I text to ask why she wasn't there.  I almost think that's what she wants me to do.

[formflier]

 

So... .what steps can she take that would move your r/s forward... .towards reconciliation?

I realize you can force her to take steps... .and heavy encouragement at this point might not be good either.

However.

I think that you should also think through and have a list of 4-5 things that you think are good.

If you ever see a chance to nudge in that direction... .take the opportunity.

This is "contingency planning".

IMO... .the temperature seems to have been turned down a notch or two. 

"Missteps" seems to be fewer and further apart... .at least on your part.

Your key will be to find ways to work towards something better... .without getting disappointed or triggered by slow timing.

Thoughts?

[Grey Kitty]

You may want to make a mental note... and practice.

When she talks about money... .do what?

Same with washer dryer

Same with cars.

Response doesn't need to be harsh... .but... .you clearly need to avoid the issue (s) and note jade over why.

What about this... ."I will not talk about these things without a qualified 3rd party present.  I won't do it."

Not sure what you mean by a 3rd party. Do you mean with a therapist?

I'm thinking a firm "no" and a firm "I'm not discussing it with you now" would be just as good.

In all honesty... .I don't expect a therapist to talk her out of her sense of entitlement any better than you would.

Any time you don't get into a fight with her over it, that is an improvement!

[123Phoebe]

Hi Maroon,

Our daughter was supposed to be at practice last night but she didn't make it and I didn't hear from them. Usually she tells me if she can't make it or asks (sometimes I ask if she needs me to) if I can pick her up... .She didn't yesterday.  I didn't chase either nor did I text to ask why she wasn't there.  I almost think that's what she wants me to do.

Are you concerned about what might have happened, why your daughter didn't make it to practice?  If you are, then don't play into the I think she wants me to do something here and I'm not going to because... ., temptation.  That is connecting to something warped and inauthentic.

Has this happened before?  If this is out of the ordinary, find out what's up!  She might be paying a game, I don't know... . But the game playing would be on her.  There would be no good reason for you to feel bad for wondering about their whereabouts, as far as I'm concerned.



 

[123Phoebe]

Hi again Maroon, have you heard anything?  I'm curious how you handle other players on the team not showing up for practice?  If I missed a Track practice, I couldn't compete in next meet.  The rules were pretty rigid.

If someone (other than your daughter) didn't show for practice, how would you handle it?

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi again Maroon, have you heard anything?  I'm curious how you handle other players on the team not showing up for practice?  If I missed a Track practice, I couldn't compete in next meet.  The rules were pretty rigid.

If someone (other than your daughter) didn't show for practice, how would you handle it?

No, I haven't heard anything.  I did try and text yesterday evening to see how they were with no response.  I guarantee if there was something wrong, I would be her first call.  As far as practice, if this were a select or all-star team, there would be strict consequences.  That doesn't start until summer.  10 out of 11 girls didn't show up and she was 1 of 3 that I didn't hear from.  It is Spring Break for everyone except for her (hers was last week) and I will have a talk with her and let her know that it is not acceptable.  I am going to address the parents as a group and let them know that is their only free pass.  If it happens again, their daughter will have to sit for an entire game.

[formflier]

 

To me... .the biggest thing seems to be the lack of communication.

Most parents seems to get that... .and communicated with you... .so there were no surprises.

[Rapt Reader]

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