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Author Topic: New Beginnings & Boundaries 2...  (Read 983 times)
Grey Kitty
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« Reply #30 on: March 11, 2015, 09:02:51 AM »

BTW, was that conversation you related all by text? If so, she really yanked you into exactly what you say you don't want to do by text!
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #31 on: March 11, 2015, 09:54:04 AM »

Uhm, you are letting her combine the issues.

What do YOU want about the hope chest? Will it upset your son to give it back to her? [I'm assuming that this is a non-issue with you and your son.]

I think the best thing to do with her is to honor any reasonable requests from her, even if she is doing them as a mindgame.

My issue with "honoring this request" is I have honored many of her requests and she still won't honor mine.  I'm done honoring requests, jumping through hoops and playing her games.  She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her requests.  In r/s you have to compromise and r/s are a two way street.  She expects something of me that she isn't willing to do (at the moment).  If she wants something going forward, she will have to step up to the plate regarding our r/s or get a divorce.  I'm done bending.  That's why she won't talk about it because she knows that is what I'm going to say.  She knows I'm much stronger.  She knows going to counseling she would look like a fool when they ask her why she continues keeping my laptop.  She doesn't want to answer the tough questions.

BTW, was that conversation you related all by text? If so, she really yanked you into exactly what you say you don't want to do by text!

It was by text.  I was proving my point.  :)id I send a mixed message?  I guess I did.  I was trying to show that I can put everything I want aside to "compromise" and that she is still unwilling to.  I proved my point.  And yes, I also proved she could pull me back into it... .Ultimately, I didn't bend and thats why she gave up.  Sometimes in life, you have to take the good with the bad.  
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #32 on: March 11, 2015, 12:25:37 PM »

Uhm, you are letting her combine the issues.

What do YOU want about the hope chest? Will it upset your son to give it back to her? [I'm assuming that this is a non-issue with you and your son.]

I think the best thing to do with her is to honor any reasonable requests from her, even if she is doing them as a mindgame.

My issue with "honoring this request" is I have honored many of her requests and she still won't honor mine.  I'm done honoring requests, jumping through hoops and playing her games.  She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her requests.  In r/s you have to compromise and r/s are a two way street.  She expects something of me that she isn't willing to do (at the moment).  If she wants something going forward, she will have to step up to the plate regarding our r/s or get a divorce.  I'm done bending.  That's why she won't talk about it because she knows that is what I'm going to say.  She knows I'm much stronger.  She knows going to counseling she would look like a fool when they ask her why she continues keeping my laptop.  She doesn't want to answer the tough questions.

BTW, was that conversation you related all by text? If so, she really yanked you into exactly what you say you don't want to do by text!

It was by text.  I was proving my point.  Did I send a mixed message?  I guess I did.  I was trying to show that I can put everything I want aside to "compromise" and that she is still unwilling to.  I proved my point.  And yes, I also proved she could pull me back into it... .Ultimately, I didn't bend and thats why she gave up.  Sometimes in life, you have to take the good with the bad. 

Well, I guess how I handled things on text last night worked as we are talking today and I'm not getting the silent treatment.  I think what she needed was a bunch of validation last night and I gave her that.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2015, 12:51:51 PM »

First, I'm very glad to hear that your validation helped the situation.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Keep up the good work!

My issue with "honoring this request" is I have honored many of her requests and she still won't honor mine.  I'm done honoring requests, jumping through hoops and playing her games.

Nope, I don't see it that way at all.

You honor her reasonable requests because you are an honorable and reasonable person. Because you don't want to look at yourself in the bathroom mirror tomorrow morning and have to look at a guy who is holding his wife's hope chest hostage. I'm not accusing you of this... .her message on the hope chest is kinda confusing and mixed, and figuring out what the good, honorable thing to do about it is a good bit more complicated.

She has taken your laptop (and your car!). She isn't behaving in a good fashion. If she ever does some self-examination, she will feel really horrible about dozens of things she's done to you. It may never happen; or it may come for an instant and vanish in the next one. Not your issue.

If you only do the right thing with her out of hope that she will do the right thing back at you, you are being a lesser person than I know you are capable of.

Excerpt
She needs to learn that the world doesn't revolve around her requests.  In r/s you have to compromise and r/s are a two way street.  She expects something of me that she isn't willing to do (at the moment).  If she wants something going forward, she will have to step up to the plate regarding our r/s or get a divorce.  I'm done bending.  That's why she won't talk about it because she knows that is what I'm going to say.  She knows I'm much stronger.  She knows going to counseling she would look like a fool when they ask her why she continues keeping my laptop.  She doesn't want to answer the tough questions.

Yes, her life will be immensely better if she learns these things.

No, you cannot teach them to her.

The more energy you put into trying to get her to learn things, the more miserable you will be. I guarantee that!
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2015, 08:37:17 AM »

First, I'm very glad to hear that your validation helped the situation.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Keep up the good work!

Thanks.  I realized last night it isn't the full on silent treatment, instead, she has retreated to the "cryptic text only" phase.  Everything was fine I think until she "remembered" she was mad at me.     Example: She was talking to me about grocery shopping Friday.  I asked when she wanted to go... .No response.  I made a suggestion of going to a resort for a couple of days next month as a family, and she responded, "We're going to the lake this weekend.  I'm so excited!" (Almost as if to say, "You aren't going" as if rubbing it in my face)        No response about my stuff.  I said, "That's good!  Y'all will have fun."  I asked what she was going to do until they left town and her response was, "I have "plans" and a lot on my to do list."  I asked her what she was looking to get accomplished and no response.  So she is obviously mad... .

Because you don't want to look at yourself in the bathroom mirror tomorrow morning and have to look at a guy who is holding his wife's hope chest hostage. I'm not accusing you of this... .

    I'm not holding it hostage, but at the same time, I feel giving into every demand of hers is not ok.  I feel this is backlash for not giving into her about the washer and dryer.  I'm also thinking, why should I be accomodating and give her everything she wants like I have for 8 months?  Yes, I feel I am a good person, good husband and good father, and have shown that repeatedly.  I continue to by being there for her and the kids.  

    Everyone has their limits.  A part of me wants to drop it off on her doorstep with all of the pictures of us, things from our marriage that I've held on to, cards and stuff she has given me, etc. inside and let her open it after I leave with a note that says, "I've included anything that reminds me of who I thought you were.  A person that valued God, our marriage, our children, and the vision we shared for our future.  I realize now that person doesn't exists."  

    Would I do that?  Absolutely not.  That's cruel, not who I am, and frankly, I love her too much to hurt her like that.  There are times where I do feel that way.  A part of me wants to hold on to the chest because it reminds me of those very things I want to throw in her face and continue to believe that she will get help and will work toward those things at some point again.  The thought of giving it back does hurt.  I can always buy something else for my son's toys and I know that.  

... .her message on the hope chest is kinda confusing and mixed... .

Yeah, it's a way to hurt me, I think, because she knows what it's used for... .

She has taken your laptop (and your car!). She isn't behaving in a good fashion. If she ever does some self-examination, she will feel really horrible about dozens of things she's done to you... .

I know you can't predict that, but do you think it will happen?  I do.  In some of her self-pity times, she has said things that show she understands what she has done and even apologized for a few of them.  And it seems just as quick (maybe when she deals with the truth and pain of it), she splits back to her, "I never did that to you." garbage.

    I know that the tone of this response is pretty ugly and dark on my part, but trying to be honest about what I feel at times so that I can deal with those... .It gets me stronger and therefore I won't use them against her when we are together.
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2015, 09:11:35 AM »

She has taken your laptop (and your car!). She isn't behaving in a good fashion. If she ever does some self-examination, she will feel really horrible about dozens of things she's done to you... .

I know you can't predict that, but do you think it will happen?  I do.  In some of her self-pity times, she has said things that show she understands what she has done and even apologized for a few of them.  And it seems just as quick (maybe when she deals with the truth and pain of it), she splits back to her, "I never did that to you." garbage.

DUDE. Not your problem. Her problem.

One of my supportive friends has a great phrase about questions like this:

Excerpt
There is no cheese at the end of that maze

Really. Wondering if she will figure it out, hoping she will, etc. None of it will help either you or her.

I can think of two things you can do to help her get to this place.



  • Radical acceptance -- She isn't there, not even close. Accept her for who she is, and how she is behaving right now.


  • Personal growth -- Work on what you can, yourself. Build your capacity to be compassionate, to not take her crap personally, your healthy boundaries, behaving in an honorable and trustworthy way, etc.




Both of these things will ultimately give her space for her own personal growth and actually apply pressure on her in that direction. And it only works if you do them for yourself, not as a way to get her to grow... .it is almost a paradox.

BTW... .this... .below... .that you shared it is a far better thing than you realize!

Excerpt
A part of me wants to drop it off on her doorstep with all of the pictures of us, things from our marriage that I've held on to, cards and stuff she has given me, etc. inside and let her open it after I leave with a note that says, "I've included anything that reminds me of who I thought you were.  A person that valued God, our marriage, our children, and the vision we shared for our future.  I realize now that person doesn't exists." 

That you WANT to do things like that now and again is honest, real, and natural. That you CHOOSE not to do them is what makes you a good person.  I've been on 10-day silent meditation retreats. Part way in, the teacher has short (15~30 minute) individual conferences. She related that she has heard MANY people say this to her after a few days of listening to their own thoughts: "But I used to think I was a good person!"
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MaroonLiquid
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« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2015, 09:39:36 AM »

There is no cheese at the end of that maze.

Really. Wondering if she will figure it out, hoping she will, etc. None of it will help either you or her.

Good point.  I really need to let those things GOO... .Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)


I can think of two things you can do to help her get to this place.



  • Radical acceptance -- She isn't there, not even close. Accept her for who she is, and how she is behaving right now.

I do accept her for who she is.  The behavior is what I have an issue with.  The back and forth stuff, the creating a problem where there is none, etc. gets oold... .

  • Personal growth -- Work on what you can, yourself. Build your capacity to be compassionate, to not take her crap personally, your healthy boundaries, behaving in an honorable and trustworthy way, etc.



I do feel I am and have been doing that.  I feel I am very compassionate with her, and at times, too compassionate. I have a hard time (not as much recently) not taking her crap personally, but doing much better with that.  I feel my behavior is a lot better than it used to be and part of that comes from my personal growth.

Both of these things will ultimately give her space for her own personal growth and actually apply pressure on her in that direction. And it only works if you do them for yourself, not as a way to get her to grow... .it is almost a paradox.

i do believe this is why things are MUCH better than they were even a few short months ago.

BTW... .this... .below... .that you shared it is a far better thing than you realize!

Excerpt
A part of me wants to drop it off on her doorstep with all of the pictures of us, things from our marriage that I've held on to, cards and stuff she has given me, etc. inside and let her open it after I leave with a note that says, "I've included anything that reminds me of who I thought you were.  A person that valued God, our marriage, our children, and the vision we shared for our future.  I realize now that person doesn't exists." 

That you WANT to do things like that now and again is honest, real, and natural. That you CHOOSE not to do them is what makes you a good person.  I've been on 10-day silent meditation retreats. Part way in, the teacher has short (15~30 minute) individual conferences. She related that she has heard MANY people say this to her after a few days of listening to their own thoughts: "But I used to think I was a good person!"

It's hard admitting that stuff... .

She actually texted me first today and said "she didn't hear her phone as she left it in another room last night".  I guess that is an apology?   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2015, 10:09:25 AM »

    Excerpt
    • Radical acceptance -- She isn't there, not even close. Accept her for who she is, and how she is behaving right now.

    I do accept her for who she is.  The behavior is what I have an issue with.  The back and forth stuff, the creating a problem where there is none, etc. gets oold... .

    ... .

    She actually texted me first today and said "she didn't hear her phone as she left it in another room last night".  I guess that is an apology?   Smiling (click to insert in post)

    Yep. All things for you to accept.

    She goes back and forth and creates issues where there are none.

    She doesn't have what it takes to give a sincere apology. (with perhaps one exception per year!)

    She might leave her phone in the other room... .or she might for her own reasons decide not to respond to you at the time, and then say that she didn't hear her phone, rather than own her behavior.

    Yep. All frustrating and sucky too. But that is who she is and what she does.

    And if you want to be a parent to her children, or have any relationship with her, accept these things and don't take it personally. Yes, she *IS* aiming it at you directly, but it really isn't about you at all.
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    MaroonLiquid
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    « Reply #38 on: March 13, 2015, 09:29:43 AM »

    And if you want to be a parent to her children, or have any relationship with her, accept these things and don't take it personally. Yes, she *IS* aiming it at you directly, but it really isn't about you at all.

    I am learning what "radical acceptance" really means on a daily basis.  Radical is the right word.

         Last night was pretty good with my wife and kids.  It started as I went over to her house and she was getting ready for us to go to Girl Scout Cookie "shop" for our D16 (will get her Gold award at the end of the year).  While my wife was getting ready, we were talking and having fun.  My wife said, "I feel like we are dating.  Do you know what I mean?"  I said, "Not really, but I would like to.  Explain what you mean."  She said, "It just feels like we are in the dating stage, which feels different because we didn't really date very long."  I took that as a good thing, because when you are dating, you have that "excitement period" (I guess she is painting me white).  I validated it, shared her how I felt and shortly after that, we left. 

         While my daughter was selling (D16 hates this part!  Smiling (click to insert in post)  Not only soes she not like trying to sell them and talking to strangers, her being popular in school doesn't help either), my wife and I spent some time talking and having fun.  She invited me to the lake this weekend with them for the day on Saturday and I said I would love to.  I think part of her felt bad as the other night she made it sound like a "her and the kids only" deal, and then the kids were talking about who they could take.  I acted completely nonchalant and didn't really feel awkward about it at all.  If she didn't ask me, it wouldn't have been a big deal in the end.  Then she asked me where her and I could go on a vacation and I said let's go on a cruise.  I took it jokingly in the moment because other than our honeymoon, we could never agree (actually she would always make an excuse about why we couldn't do it and it was usually about the kids and not being fair to them  ).  We talked about it shortly and then moved on to a different topic.  A bit later, she started to get really irritated with our D12 who was "making fun" of people's responses and the way they walk.  One area where I have really backed off in the last 8 months is when her kids act up, I step back and let her take care of it.  She told me that she felt I was "parenting over the top of her" (months ago), when it was actually her most of the time.

         After the event, she asked me what I was doing for my son's birthday.  I said, "We are taking him to a trampoline park".  She said, "Who all is coming?" and I said, "It's just the eight of us, I didn't invite my family this time."  She said, "Well, I was going to say I probably wouldn't go if your mom was going to be there.  She was horrible to me in front of people (not true, actually she is the one that created a scene)."  I told her, "I can see why her confronting got you angry.  Frankly, I am angry with her also and have told her how inappropriate she was to confront you at our daughter's game.  That wasn't the place for it nor will I tolerate that from my family.  If they can't behave themselves, they won't be invited.  I'm very sorry she did that.  It will get better."  I could tell she was starting to get triggered when she said, "No it won't because I won't be around her.  She obviously doesn't know the whole story and I did nothing wrong.     (I was thinking to myself, "Honey, you know she does, you know you did and that bothers you."  I could tell it started to trigger her as she obviously looks at that mentally as another reason we won't work.  I told her in the car in front of the kids, "Honey, what my mom did by confonting you was wrong and there is no excuse for it.  She has boundary issues.  I won't be around my mom either if she can't respect my boundaries.  You are my wife and these are my kids.  My first responsibility is taking care of y'all and protecting you guys.  I can assure you, I won't let her do that to you again."  I beleive with that validation and when one of our daughters brought up something else (glad she did), she was calm again.  At the house, when we were talking alone, I told her, "Honey, we have to do our very best to separate the issues with our parents from the issues of us.  It is difficult because a lot of who we are stems from how we grew up."  She said, "It's no wonder we have the issues we do."  She was calm and a little later, I mentioned my mom got in a car accident (minor) earlier that day with a small bus.  She went total projection mode and said, "You can't do bad things to people and expect it not to come around on you."  I validated and said, "You're absolutely right honey.  Consequences from our actions are tough to deal with, but that is how we learn!" and she said, "Yep!" with an upbeat tone.  I stayed for about an hour and then went home.  Today we are going shopping and having lunch together.   All in all, a good day.  One thing I'm learning is how to detect and deflect triggers much better so that they don't turn into full out dysregulations.  She hasn't full on dysregulated in a while which is progress.
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    « Reply #39 on: March 14, 2015, 01:58:03 PM »

     

    Maroon,

    You have been doing some great work lately!

    What is status of the laptop and the chest/box thing?

    FF
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    MaroonLiquid
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    « Reply #40 on: March 16, 2015, 03:37:14 PM »

    Maroon,

    You have been doing some great work lately!

    What is status of the laptop and the chest/box thing?

    FF

    The status of the laptop and chest is... .There is no status.  I still don't have my laptop and she didn't ask for her chest again.

         We went to the lake on Saturday and had a great time!  We went out in a boat and we just relaxed and the kids tubed. My wife and I bonded and I bonded with the kids.  I even bonded with my son who has been pretty angry the last 8-9 months.  I helped him fish and we even laughed.  He even said bye to me the other night which he hasn't done in about 10 months.  My wife asked me if I could stay with the kids when she has to go out of town next month for business and I said sure.  That night we were all extremely tired and my wife was falling asleep. I decided to go home and my wife asked me why.  I told her I needed to go and do some laundry.  She seemed ok and I came home.

         Yesterday, my wife asked if I wanted to go grocery shopping with her and then go to a financial and debt-free class at church with her and I said yes.  We went to the store and then took our son to work.  Right after that, we went to the class and it started out great.  There was all these couples who were working toward the same goals, discussing things and then there was my wife and I.  There was this moment where there was this "one minute break" where we were supposed to discuss what we took away from the last segment of video.  All the other couples were all discussing and my wife wrote down her thoughts, but didn't ask me for mine.  This is where it got strange for me.  I realized now why I thought she invited me and why she actually invited me where possibly two different things.  When it was over, she told me some sob story that she may have to trade her new car in or sell it to get something she could afford as the payment was too high.  She said that it was a bad decision on her part financially because she "didn't have all the information" and if she could go back she would do it differently.  I validated how hard it is to come to that decision and she then brought up the washer and dryer (nice Segway on her part  Smiling (click to insert in post)).  I told her that under the circumstances, and the fact that I hadn't used them in nine months that it wasn't fair to ask me to pay for any of it and I wasn't going to.  I then told her how being in that debt free class was strange considering our circumstances.  I told her how I felt that we're attending something that couples who are working toward the same goals do and that it's awkward because I feel we are on two separate ends of the spectrum.  She asked that our bills are separate so why is it strange? (Funny how they don't see the irony in their own crap). I told her to hold out her left hand, and I put mine next to it.  I said, "This is what I'm talking about.  I'm wearing my wedding ring and you aren't.  You can't expect me to continue to fork over money when you aren't giving me the same respect."  She said she thinks she understands what I'm saying and I said for her to tell me so that I know she understands.  She said that she thinks that I won't pay for the washer and dryer if we aren't "working on the marriage".  I told her I wouldn't pay for them as long as we were separated.  I told her I feel like our marriage is a "carrot" she is dangling in front of me.  I told her I feel she keeps throwing "issues" and bills at me so that we never actually get anything resolved.  I told her "I'm not ok with that anymore because if we want our marriage to work, we should be doing everything we can to make it work, including going to counseling.  All these "issues" are symptoms of the elephant in the room.  If we actually work towards the same goals that those issues would work themselves out.  I asked her why she is doing that?  She said she can't get to a place where we can work on the marriage until those things are taken care of.  I did validate that, also adding that how she felt wasn't wrong.  I told her that I see things differently, but to make a marriage work, we have to compromise.  She said that's all she does.   I was laughing inside and was like, "What?   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)). She said that with paying for the cruise that "my kids and I enjoyed" that she is trying to recoup some of her losses (so damn tired of hearing that).  I told her that I think it's ridiculous in the fact that all I provided and paid for throughout our marriage.  I brought up the fact that I have provided insurance throughout that saved her tons of money, paid every single car note out of my check for two and a half years including 7 months during our separation.  The difference in her and I is that I don't throw things in her face, I did them because I love her and the kids.  She said, "You and I have quite a different view on love".  I responded with, "Yeah, I don't keep score about what I paid for and throw it up to you when I get angry".  At this point, I didn't care anymore about validation and just said how I feel.  That's when she told me to leave her house (Kids were in their room).  We didn't yell, but still ended the same.  She throws a fit when she doesn't get her way, and that is getting old.  I am also back in the silent treatment, but I am good though.  I feel better because I'm not stuffing things anymore and therefore not walking on eggshells.  I could have changed the subject, but if I did that, I would have felt like I was stuffing it.  A decision I made that knew there may be some fallout.
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    « Reply #41 on: March 16, 2015, 04:29:11 PM »

     

    How are things now?
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    Grey Kitty
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    « Reply #42 on: March 16, 2015, 04:39:42 PM »

    Well... .at least you just re-hashed all the prior financial crap, one more time. Doesn't sound like either of you learned anything new during it, except that perhaps she figured out she can't afford her current car payment.

    It also doesn't sound like a horrible dysregulation on her part.

    I'm wondering if you went wrong here:

    my wife asked if I wanted to go to a financial and debt-free class at church with her and I said yes.

    You don't have joint finances with her anymore. You don't want to give her your money. You don't want to rescue her financially. You aren't the right person to teach her how to be more financially responsible... .and you know that you get into fights with her over money... .and you seem to already be doing fine at managing your own finances (except occasionally where she is concerned   )

    What sort of good outcome where you hoping for?

    Can you practice boundary enforcement on shutting down those sort of conversations whenever she asks you for funds for something?

    "We are do not have shared finances anymore; I'm not interested in talking about 'X' with you."

    And for the sake of your marriage... .please be less invalidating about money... .you do NOT need to convince her that you are right about what money you owe her or don't owe her. You do NOT need to convince her that what you are doing is fair. You do NOT need to get her to agree to it.

    Not giving her money is a boundary enforcement action on your part. You should NEVER expect her to like it or agree with it.

    Your only job on boundary enforcement is to convince her that you aren't going to pay her bills. (W/D, car payment, whatever).

    The more firm and consistent you are about it, the faster she will believe you aren't going to pay and stop asking.




    The time with your kids sounded great, especially your son Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  I hope you do take care of her kids when she goes away next month, and are able to see them occasionally.

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    « Reply #43 on: March 16, 2015, 05:33:03 PM »

    How are things now?

    Well, I tried texting her and no response, so for the moment, getting the ST... .

    Well... .at least you just re-hashed all the prior financial crap, one more time. Doesn't sound like either of you learned anything new during it, except that perhaps she figured out she can't afford her current car payment.

    It also doesn't sound like a horrible dysregulation on her part.

    I think she is learning I'm not giving in.  And yes, it wasn't a bad dysregulation.  I think I was more dysregulated than she was.   Smiling (click to insert in post)

    I'm wondering if you went wrong here:

    my wife asked if I wanted to go to a financial and debt-free class at church with her and I said yes.

    You don't have joint finances with her anymore. You don't want to give her your money. You don't want to rescue her financially. You aren't the right person to teach her how to be more financially responsible... .and you know that you get into fights with her over money... .and you seem to already be doing fine at managing your own finances (except occasionally where she is concerned   )

    What sort of good outcome where you hoping for?

    I guess I misread her motives.  Thinking maybe she was thinking more in terms of family... .I learned my lesson!   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

    Can you practice boundary enforcement on shutting down those sort of conversations whenever she asks you for funds for something?

    "We are do not have shared finances anymore; I'm not interested in talking about 'X' with you."

    And for the sake of your marriage... .please be less invalidating about money... .you do NOT need to convince her that you are right about what money you owe her or don't owe her. You do NOT need to convince her that what you are doing is fair. You do NOT need to get her to agree to it.

    Not giving her money is a boundary enforcement action on your part. You should NEVER expect her to like it or agree with it.

    Your only job on boundary enforcement is to convince her that you aren't going to pay her bills. (W/D, car payment, whatever).

    The more firm and consistent you are about it, the faster she will believe you aren't going to pay and stop asking.




    The time with your kids sounded great, especially your son Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  I hope you do take care of her kids when she goes away next month, and are able to see them occasionally.

    I fully plan to take care of them next month.  I'm looking forward to it.  My wife knows I want to see them and even cried when we were talking about me bonding with my son on Saturday. 
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    « Reply #44 on: March 16, 2015, 09:34:58 PM »

    When it was over, she told me some sob story that she may have to trade her new car in or sell it to get something she could afford as the payment was too high.  She said that it was a bad decision on her part financially because she "didn't have all the information" and if she could go back she would do it differently.  I validated how hard it is to come to that decision and she then brought up the washer and dryer (nice Segway on her part  Smiling (click to insert in post)).  I told her that under the circumstances, and the fact that I hadn't used them in nine months that it wasn't fair to ask me to pay for any of it and I wasn't going to. 

    ML,

    So... .I could see where the joint class would have been nice... .if it had gone in a certain direction.  You were not totally off base there... .but certainly a bit optimistic... .IMO.

    Even if you both went... .and did individual work... .or just a tiny bit of joint... maybe that would have been ok... .touch weird... .but not bad.

    However... .look at the highlighted part.

    I think this is where you need to do some thinking about the future.

    Was validating the wrong approach? 

    How about switching subjects... .?

    Basically... .she mentions money and you ?  Do what?

    I think that is the question... .the answer should be consistent... .

    I'm bad about wanting to try to "prove my point"... .and getting into a rehash.  I've gotten a bit better... .and want to keep getting better.

    GK's point... .and my experience... .is that rarely things have swung my way.

    I would say 10% of the time there has been a good outcome from rehash... .

    Not good odds... .

    FF
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    « Reply #45 on: March 17, 2015, 07:08:15 AM »

     

    ML,

    You've had some great times with your family lately.

    What is the "next step" for your journey to a healthier place (or whatever you call where you are heading)

    Maybe that is a good question as well... .where are you headed?

    Goal here is to focus... .clarify... .figure out what is next... .
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    « Reply #46 on: March 17, 2015, 07:49:05 AM »

    ML,

    So... .I could see where the joint class would have been nice... .if it had gone in a certain direction.  You were not totally off base there... .but certainly a bit optimistic... .IMO.  Even if you both went... .and did individual work... .or just a tiny bit of joint... maybe that would have been ok... .touch weird... .but not bad.

    This is why at first I didn't balk, because I "thought" it was progress toward being one again.  And I believe with a part of her, that was what it was.  But maybe that is a bit too optimistic also... .

    Was validating the wrong approach?

    Quite possibly.  I thought validation was never wrong, but I can see where there is a possible "gray" area now... . 

    How about switching subjects... .?

    This is where I have trouble when it comes to this subject... .I'm pretty good with validation, but changing subjects seems invalidating... .

    Basically... .she mentions money and you ?  Do what?

    Get nervous, palms get sweaty and ABSOLUTELY HATE this subject.  I can see where she picks up on that.

    ML,

    You've had some great times with your family lately.

    What is the "next step" for your journey to a healthier place (or whatever you call where you are heading)

    Maybe that is a good question as well... .where are you headed?

    Goal here is to focus... .clarify... .figure out what is next... .

    I think we are in a much better place than we were 8 months ago.  But there wasn't really anywhere to go but up.   Smiling (click to insert in post)  What's important for me and for the past few months is for the kids to see me, and therefore us, in a much healthier place than we were.  They see their mom and I affectionate with one another, and they see me staying calm, and loving.  Here is where I am headed: 

    1. Setting firmer boundaries when it comes to "bills".

    2. Continuing to focus on all the kids.

    3. Allowing my wife the ability to grow herself.
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    « Reply #47 on: March 17, 2015, 12:49:14 PM »

    Quite possibly.  I thought validation was never wrong, but I can see where there is a possible "gray" area now... . 

    Validation is not 'wrong', with one caveat: Don't validate the invalid. If she believes something that isn't true, don't validate that. Feelings are never wrong, and can always be validated.

    Excerpt
    This is where I have trouble when it comes to this subject... .I'm pretty good with validation, but changing subjects seems invalidating... .

    The tool I've been recommending is boundary enforcement, instead of validation in these situations.

    There is *NOTHING* validating about boundary enforcement actions. They are often mildly invalidating, sometimes neither validating or invalidating. Remember--you wouldn't be doing it unless you had a reason to protect yourself from her actions that are harmful to her--Your whole reason for doing this is to stop her from accomplishing what she wants to accomplish. It doesn't matter how justified you are, or how justified she is... .she isn't going to like it!

    98% validation + 2% invalidation has the same effect as 0% validation + 2% invalidation... .in other words, using validation to take some of the 'sting' out of boundary enforcement just doesn't work. Save your validation energy for times when she is receptive.
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    « Reply #48 on: March 17, 2015, 01:52:47 PM »

     

    You may want to make a mental note... and practice.

    When she talks about money... .do what?

    Same with washer dryer

    Same with cars.

    Response doesn't need to be harsh... .but... .you clearly need to avoid the issue (s) and note jade over why.

    What other "things" get talked about that are like cars and washer dryer.

    Any new stuff on that box she wanted from you.

    Are you considering the laptop a goner?

    Anything else of yours that she has... that you need/want back?

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    « Reply #49 on: March 18, 2015, 07:47:54 AM »

    Quite possibly.  I thought validation was never wrong, but I can see where there is a possible "gray" area now... . 

    Validation is not 'wrong', with one caveat: Don't validate the invalid. If she believes something that isn't true, don't validate that. Feelings are never wrong, and can always be validated.

    Excerpt
    This is where I have trouble when it comes to this subject... .I'm pretty good with validation, but changing subjects seems invalidating... .

    The tool I've been recommending is boundary enforcement, instead of validation in these situations.

    There is *NOTHING* validating about boundary enforcement actions. They are often mildly invalidating, sometimes neither validating or invalidating. Remember--you wouldn't be doing it unless you had a reason to protect yourself from her actions that are harmful to her--Your whole reason for doing this is to stop her from accomplishing what she wants to accomplish. It doesn't matter how justified you are, or how justified she is... .she isn't going to like it!

    98% validation + 2% invalidation has the same effect as 0% validation + 2% invalidation... .in other words, using validation to take some of the 'sting' out of boundary enforcement just doesn't work. Save your validation energy for times when she is receptive.

    Yeah, I see what you are saying... .It shouldn't matter what her reaction is if it is a boundary with me.  More than likely an extinction burst will come of it anyway... .

    You may want to make a mental note... and practice.

    When she talks about money... .do what?

    Same with washer dryer

    Same with cars.

    Response doesn't need to be harsh... .but... .you clearly need to avoid the issue (s) and note jade over why.

    What about this... ."I will not talk about these things without a qualified 3rd party present.  I won't do it."

    What other "things" get talked about that are like cars and washer dryer.

    That's pretty much it.

    Any new stuff on that box she wanted from you.

    Nope... .That was a diversion/extinction burst to get a rise out of me and get me to discuss something.  I didn't see what it was when it happened.

    Are you considering the laptop a goner?

    Anything else of yours that she has... that you need/want back?

    No, I'm not.  I know she still has it and the laptop is all I'm concerned with for now.

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    « Reply #50 on: March 18, 2015, 09:30:29 AM »

     

    OK... laptop.  You haven't had it for a long time... .do you need it?  I would guess not.  My recommendation... .consider it a goner.

    You do need to think through what you say if she gives it back... .with no deal... just a kindness thing.

    Also need to think through what to say if she wants to make a "deal" with it.  Hmmm... .seem like I've made deals before... .and Grey keeps asking me how those went... .I wonder why?  

    Or... .if it is an issue and you want it back... .then devise a strategy.  (I don't recommend this... .but it's your choice.)

    Bottom line:  If this truly is the last "item"... .be aware of this and don't let this be a trigger point... .

    I think your response for washer dryer talk  (or money talk)... .is a good starting point.

    I'm wondering if SET is a good format... .with the T being "We have discussed this (or should  you say "settled" this matter before.  I would be willing to discuss it in MC if you want to discuss it further.  We could call and make an appointment now."  The last sentence is a little edgy. 

    You can work on the SE part.

    I would like to see some others discuss a simpler... .pure boundary enforcement model.  "We've discussed this before... .I have nothing further to add."

    Any contact with her in last day or two?
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    « Reply #51 on: March 18, 2015, 10:01:01 AM »

    OK... laptop.  You haven't had it for a long time... .do you need it?  I would guess not.  My recommendation... .consider it a goner.

    You do need to think through what you say if she gives it back... .with no deal... just a kindness thing.

    Also need to think through what to say if she wants to make a "deal" with it.  Hmmm... .seem like I've made deals before... .and Grey keeps asking me how those went... .I wonder why?  

    Or... .if it is an issue and you want it back... .then devise a strategy.  (I don't recommend this... .but it's your choice.)

    Bottom line:  If this truly is the last "item"... .be aware of this and don't let this be a trigger point... .

    I think your response for washer dryer talk  (or money talk)... .is a good starting point.

    I'm wondering if SET is a good format... .with the T being "We have discussed this (or should  you say "settled" this matter before.  I would be willing to discuss it in MC if you want to discuss it further.  We could call and make an appointment now."  The last sentence is a little edgy.  

    You can work on the SE part.

    I would like to see some others discuss a simpler... .pure boundary enforcement model.  "We've discussed this before... .I have nothing further to add."

    Any contact with her in last day or two?

    Good points on all that.  I will think on those things.

    There was some light contact initiated by her night before last when she texted me about a mutual friend that had passed away (wondering if I knew) Saturday while we were at the lake (we didn't find out until Monday on Facebook around the same time).  I responded that I had heard.  Yesterday morning I texted her when I found out what exactly happened and we responded back and forth for a few and then she didn't respond further.  I haven't texted since.  Our daughter was supposed to be at practice last night but she didn't make it and I didn't hear from them.  Usually she tells me if she can't make it or asks (sometimes I ask if she needs me to) if I can pick her up... .She didn't yesterday.  I didn't chase either nor did I text to ask why she wasn't there.  I almost think that's what she wants me to do.
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    « Reply #52 on: March 18, 2015, 10:06:15 AM »

     

    So... .what steps can she take that would move your r/s forward... .towards reconciliation?

    I realize you can force her to take steps... .and heavy encouragement at this point might not be good either.

    However.

    I think that you should also think through and have a list of 4-5 things that you think are good.

    If you ever see a chance to nudge in that direction... .take the opportunity.

    This is "contingency planning".

    IMO... .the temperature seems to have been turned down a notch or two. 

    "Missteps" seems to be fewer and further apart... .at least on your part.

    Your key will be to find ways to work towards something better... .without getting disappointed or triggered by slow timing.

    Thoughts?


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    « Reply #53 on: March 18, 2015, 06:23:28 PM »

    You may want to make a mental note... and practice.

    When she talks about money... .do what?

    Same with washer dryer

    Same with cars.

    Response doesn't need to be harsh... .but... .you clearly need to avoid the issue (s) and note jade over why.

    What about this... ."I will not talk about these things without a qualified 3rd party present.  I won't do it."

    Not sure what you mean by a 3rd party. Do you mean with a therapist?

    I'm thinking a firm "no" and a firm "I'm not discussing it with you now" would be just as good.

    In all honesty... .I don't expect a therapist to talk her out of her sense of entitlement any better than you would.

    Any time you don't get into a fight with her over it, that is an improvement!
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    « Reply #54 on: March 18, 2015, 07:06:08 PM »

    Hi Maroon,

    Our daughter was supposed to be at practice last night but she didn't make it and I didn't hear from them. Usually she tells me if she can't make it or asks (sometimes I ask if she needs me to) if I can pick her up... .She didn't yesterday.  I didn't chase either nor did I text to ask why she wasn't there.  I almost think that's what she wants me to do.

    Are you concerned about what might have happened, why your daughter didn't make it to practice?  If you are, then don't play into the I think she wants me to do something here and I'm not going to because... ., temptation.  That is connecting to something warped and inauthentic.

    Has this happened before?  If this is out of the ordinary, find out what's up!  She might be paying a game, I don't know... . But the game playing would be on her.  There would be no good reason for you to feel bad for wondering about their whereabouts, as far as I'm concerned.



     

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    « Reply #55 on: March 19, 2015, 06:16:26 AM »

    Hi again Maroon, have you heard anything?  I'm curious how you handle other players on the team not showing up for practice?  If I missed a Track practice, I couldn't compete in next meet.  The rules were pretty rigid.

    If someone (other than your daughter) didn't show for practice, how would you handle it?

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    « Reply #56 on: March 19, 2015, 07:14:31 AM »

    Hi again Maroon, have you heard anything?  I'm curious how you handle other players on the team not showing up for practice?  If I missed a Track practice, I couldn't compete in next meet.  The rules were pretty rigid.

    If someone (other than your daughter) didn't show for practice, how would you handle it?

    No, I haven't heard anything.  I did try and text yesterday evening to see how they were with no response.  I guarantee if there was something wrong, I would be her first call.  As far as practice, if this were a select or all-star team, there would be strict consequences.  That doesn't start until summer.  10 out of 11 girls didn't show up and she was 1 of 3 that I didn't hear from.  It is Spring Break for everyone except for her (hers was last week) and I will have a talk with her and let her know that it is not acceptable.  I am going to address the parents as a group and let them know that is their only free pass.  If it happens again, their daughter will have to sit for an entire game.
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    « Reply #57 on: March 19, 2015, 08:09:32 AM »

     

    To me... .the biggest thing seems to be the lack of communication.

    Most parents seems to get that... .and communicated with you... .so there were no surprises.

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    « Reply #58 on: March 19, 2015, 05:55:25 PM »

    Staff only

    This thread has reached its page limit, and has been locked. The conversation continues here: New Beginnings & Boundaries 3.
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