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Author Topic: Black if you do, black if you dont... so then what?  (Read 631 times)
Crumbling
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« on: March 06, 2015, 08:27:59 AM »

I'm fed up this morning.  I was painted black last night because he chose to buy 5 beer instead of a case, and I drank one of them.

These were his summations of me last night:

"The only reason you are here is to make my life miserable."

"You don't love me, you just want a man you can control."

"Every women I've been with has had more testosterone than me, and so they figure they can bully me around, just like you."

"You told me you like the gentle man in me.  I know why now, so you can push me around, and be the man."

I didn't think we could afford liquor.  We are really struggling financially and it is mostly because he cant keep his addictions in check.  I had, just that day, figured out the expenses of him going to work that one day last week compared to the money he brought into the house ---- it cost us $15 for him to go to work.

He got beer the night he worked, he got upper pills from his 'buddy' that day 'to get through it', he bought his lunch (even tho I packed him a nice one), needed gas money to get there and home and had to get more beer on the day he got paid for the day's work... .that was last night.  He tells me he is getting beer, asks how I feel about it, I tell him we can't afford it and I think it's a waste of money, he gets it anyway.  This is the way it typically goes down.  And if I freak out and get upset before he makes his purchase, he will not make the purchase, but then will 'punish' me all night for talking him out of it.  So I tell him it's his choice, what else can I say?

He said he walked around the liquor store with a case until he realized it wasn't on sale anymore, so he only got five.  To him, I should have been grateful:  "Aren't you proud of me?  Doesn't that count for something?"

Later, after I poured myself a glass he was enraged that I would do such a thing and wouldn't just 'let him enjoy getting a good buzz'.

If I say nothing he just keeps spending like a sailor with no thought of consequences.

If I say something I'm being a controlling nag that hates him.

I'm so tired of this.  Each time he drinks, he yells and belittles me to a point where I end up hiding in my room with ear phones on... .and it only takes one beer for it to start.  Nothing I say or do makes it stop. 

I've tried the 'no booze in my house' boundary - it set him off really bad.  I've tried saying nothing - he ends up drinking away every cent we have.  I've tried leaving when he brings home booze, but it makes me feel cheated out of my own home - why should I leave, this is his issue. 

If I get upset enough, he switches from hating me to hating himself and the nasty names he calls himself come out in strings of endless hate.  Last night it took me saying that I know lots of people that would love to have my company in their homes in exchange for my room and board, so if he wasn't willing, I could fix that right quick and move out.  This is when the hate turned from me onto him.  I know this may have made things worse for him, but it stopped the attacks on me.

Even if he apologizes, I feel like I have no forgiveness left.  How do you forgive one's actions when you know damn well they are just going to do them again?  Should it even be offered... .isn't that enabling?

All I know is that this feels like a lose-lose situation and I don't have any clue on how to deal with it. 

c.
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« Reply #1 on: March 06, 2015, 08:57:28 AM »

Crumbling          I completely understand about how alcohol brings out the absolute worst in pwBPD. I've been struggling with my husband's addiction to alcohol and I don't have any words of wisdom. I've done a variety of things to confront him about it and over time, it's just deepened the chasm between us.

Lately I haven't said anything, just kept to myself. Fortunately he has decided he needs a modicum of restraint because he hasn't been as much of an idiot as he has in the past. But yeech     it's a horrible additive to the mess that BPD makes out of lives.

If I had known what I was getting into with the alcohol abuse and the BPD, I certainly wouldn't have had the stars in my eyes, thinking that this is the man I've waited all my life for--I probably would have put on my running shoes and gotten the heck out of there.
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2015, 11:18:46 AM »

Apparently, he got into the porn after I hid in my room last night.  And, now, I'm selfish because I wont have sex with him.

 

'To the moon, Alice!'

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« Reply #3 on: March 06, 2015, 11:43:47 AM »

Crumbling, a relationship with a pwBPD can be a lose-lose experience. You need to do what is right for you. This is the only way you can turn it into a "win", if that is at all possible.

Discussing what you can and can't afford is a normal part of any relationship especially when finances are tight. Relationships with a pwBPD can feel one sided, it can be take-take. Love is about genuine give and take... .or more accurately give and receive.

Alcohol or other recreational substances can bring out the worst in anybody... .and with a pwBPD this can magnify the symptoms of the disorder.

Your opening line I have felt myself. The only way I could deal with it was to impose a "break" without really saying so before I became unhelpful because of the stress (I have challenges in other areas of my life: work, FOO, my children, BPDex) and total lack of emotional support.

Just the other evening I was having a moment and said sarcastically to my BPDgf thatbI was glad that she was my emotional support... .and she became disappointed with herself and said to me "your emotional support?... .I can't even be my emotional support"... .Idea... .BANG... .times like that are truly encouraging when they keep it real.

Part of the difficulty when interacting with a pwBPD is the delusion and sometimes psychosis.

My 2c backyard analysis:

His statements that you shared are all about projecting his own personal lack of control of himself onto you. Control is HUGE in BPD. It is in essence how they maintain any semblance of "keeping it together".

I have friends with diagnosed mental health conditions that offer me various prescription medications and recreational substances when I share my struggles with them. what works for them isn't my solution, but they are trying to help as best they know how. Sharing prescription medications is certainly not recommended by ANY doctor or health advocate... .and certainly not self prescribing.  

Trying to reason with him or tring to make sense of his actions can leave you frustrated and fed up as you have experienced. Often pwBPD just don't make any real sense (except to themselves) and can be their own worst enemy.  

Sharing the alcohol (which is OK by me) when you can't afford it and don't really approve of seems a little contradictory and perhaps unhelpful to your situation. It seems enabling or a little enmeshed... .although I can see EXACTLY how that might happen.  .  But please tread carefully here.

I am sorry you are struggling financially in part because of a pwBPD. I have stood back while my BPDgf wanted to work (read: HAD to), was referred to an employment agency, was referred to a job after 9 months, and I stood back, was not involved, and watched as she made her own decisions and attempted to fly... .she tried REALLY hard... .but then her BPD got in the way... .

If you want to see my bill and the fallout from my BPDgf for going to work your hair might stand on end... .or fall out!. I hoped it would help her to become more self sufficient and happier, but her very HARD work and commitment has just led her to become exploited.  :'(.

I am not joking when I say we could easily end up on TV as a news story. It was a simple job at a simple place of employment but has now turned into a horrid story of abuse, manipulation, attempted fraud, and exploitation. We now have to confront her employer about unpaid entitlements and possibly take the matter to the employment ombudsman. We now have a meeting scheduled with a high powered executive (from the employment agency) some weeks away (he is interstate) after ripping through so many consultants and then managers from all over the place that it seems so UNREAL. $15 is a significant sum to me... .but the "cost" financially and emotionally and to our relationship has been UNREAL up to this point.

But Now a twist... .

My BPDgf and I are working as a team at present I am hoping for much BIGGER things for us. It would seem to be bringing us together, it would seem to be doing a lot for trust and intimacy, although her optimism is waxing and waning, she is making good choices, HEALTHY choices. I hope I am right. A little kindness is never wasted.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

An answer to your closing questions might be that his "apology" is not genuine. A GENUINE apology comes with a good deal of REMORSE and an EXPLANATION as to why that hurtful or unhelpful behaviour occurred in the first place. I have learnt this the hard way after every infarction with my BPDgf came with a "flip me off sorry". I can tell you when pushed she shut down. We are making incredibly slow progress in that area, but I warn you... .don't hope for too much, don't expect too much, and you won't be disappointed.

You are in a relationship with a pwBPD... .and that is a choice (for whatever reason) that YOU are making.

Stay strong. Make good (read: healthy) choices for YOU. We are here to support you.

Warmest regards.  
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« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2015, 11:53:31 AM »

Apparently, he got into the porn after I hid in my room last night.  And, now, I'm selfish because I wont have sex with him.

 

'To the moon, Alice!'

You posted while I was typing my long response. It is 4am here. So I have too much time on my hands.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Your (healthy?) detachment led to him to make very ordinary choices. Porn is very destructive to an intimate relationship. I have friends that say it "spices" up there love life. Hmmm... .I'm not so sure about that.

Crumbling, if you are selfish I have not seen it yet. You are doing what you feel in your heart is right... .for YOU... .and for your "relationship". And in that correct order.

Keep doing it. But be careful not to invalidate. Your pwBPD seems to have a total lack of self control. Your self awareness is commendable.

More hugs to you.  
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« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2015, 01:37:05 PM »

Crumbling, is your SO in any way cognizant of his troubles, and open to getting help for them?

He sounds like my adult (38) son who was diagnosed with BPD in March/April of 2013, got treated for it and his Heroin addiction at an Intensive In-Patient Dual Diagnosis Program. He was there for 21 days, and has now been clean and sober for 24 months + 5 days (but who's counting?   ), and with continuing Out-Patient, Neurofeedback, & Psychiatric Therapies, is in recovery from his BPD. In fact, his Therapists all say that he wouldn't even be diagnosed with it today.

If you two are financially insecure, could he (or does he already?) qualify for Medicaid? My son has been unemployed for quite a while because of his troubles (he's living with us, and is now working on a Graphic Novel that is awesome!), and his treatments have all been paid for by his Medicaid and affiliated Insurance. If your SO had any access to treatment, would he consider it?

I know the stress involved in all of this for you; I lived it myself with my son for many years... .It never got better until he reached rock bottom, ended up in the DDx Program, and turned his life around. It was a difficult road to take from there to here, but learning what I've learned from the links on the right-hand side of this page (and the ones I read on the Parenting a Child Board), and putting the communication tools & techniques into practice, we've all been able to find a happy and healthy balance in our home.

Have you checked out the Feature Articles at the top of the Staying thread listings page, under the 4 photos? All of those Articles are great, and I highly recommend that you read them all, but this one: How to get a Borderline Loved One into Therapy, would be very helpful for you to check out, Crumbling.

I've found that when I was at my wit's end, it helped to dig in and research my options and learn exactly what was happening to my son (and my Husband with BPD traits), our relationship and our home life. Once I disentangled myself from their dysfunctions and dysregulations, stopped taking their words and actions personally, and started applying the information I learned on this site in practice, things actually started moving in positive directions with both of them. Just a thought 

P.S. My son's--and my--story is linked to in my signature line below: "Son's Dual Dx Pgm & NFT Story."  You'll see how much his problems were similar to your own loved one's... .And learn how he got to where he is now... .

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Crumbling
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« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2015, 03:26:18 PM »

He started seeing a general therapist about a year ago, and stopped six months into it.  No specialize treatment, but more like counselling.  He also got involved in a group class that helped him look at mindfulness and emotions, and they may have touched a bit on DBT.

I read over the Getting a BPD to Therapy link you provided, and 'abnegation' sounds like him.  It's like accepting responsibility for his actions is too much for him, and he triggers.

He seems to fluctuate back and forth, from staying mindful, to this blatant denial of any wrong doing.  He has said before that the only reason he went to T was 'for me'.

At the time, it was get help or I'm out of here.  He, like he does, put as little into it as possible to get me to stay, and now here I am a year later in the same sinking boat with little change to our lives.

I've been doing a lot of reading on here, and thinking, and have a new goal for 2015 of more self healing.  This has helped with the day to day exchanges and I've been making adjustments to communication techniques and avoiding JADEing.  But at this point, it's like my wheels are spinning, and he keeps throwing mud under the tires, so I still ain't goin no where. 

I'm afraid his rock bottom is going to be the day his wife walks out. 

 Thanks for all your responses.

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« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2015, 02:55:48 PM »

  Sorry that improvement is so slow and limited after a year. Keep working on yourself--The best part of that is that whatever progress you make, you can apply in your marriage or outside it--you get the fruits of that hard work, regardless the outcome of your marriage. I know how tough it can be.

Crumbling, can you enforce any financial boundaries to keep your household afloat?

If money makes it into your H's pocket, he gets to choose what to do with it. You cannot change that. (Whether he spends it on booze or pills or gas or food, a new TV, or a gift for you... .his choice... .good, bad, or indifferent)

You will need his agreement (which you can't count on) to take his paycheck and limit his access to it.

You can control your paycheck. You can make sure it gets deposited into an account in your name only. You can choose to spend that money first on household bills and food, before "luxuries" including booze are purchased with YOUR money.

If the division of income between you and your H will let this work, let us help you set up practical boundaries that will help.

... .when it comes to his drinking and how he treats you when he drinks... .all you can do is choose to be not present when he does it... .

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« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2015, 03:34:01 PM »

Crumbling... .  

My H is a drinker too. The 99% of the time he dysregulates, he's drinking. The past 2 weeks... .he has drunk every night. He doesn't usually do this, and I've been trying to figure out a way to approach this subject without causing a big ol' to do.

I totally understand where you are at. I plan on working with my T to come up with strategies.
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Crumbling
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« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2015, 08:57:11 AM »

Thanks for your responses.  We have separate bank accounts, and always have.  I have been paying my half of the bills, and have not shared the balance in my own account with him. 

What is happening, is that he doesn't pay his share, the bills get over due, they start calling, I get worried about loosing the electric or phone and pay down the balance.  I know this should be a written in stone, "it's your responsibility, you deal with it" way, but he twists things around soo much it's really hard. 

An example is he will spend more than budgeted for on groceries and buy, say oil and filters for the vehicles, then guilt-free, spends the rest on himself.  He will claim these 'compensate' for his half of the bills, even tho they are not pre-approved expenses that we agreed on, and hence his spending is 'justified'.  It's really hard to logic him out of anything.  And most of the time, I only know what is going on after the fact.  He's the type that will buy horse feed because it's on sale, even tho we don't have a horse.

I'm so glad we are discussing this right now.  He has gotten himself in trouble with his bank, and I've been staying out of things and letting him deal with it on his own.  He had to go in to talk to them the other day, and he begged and pleaded with me to go with him... .even tried saying "we've been together long enough, your name is likely on this too now".  At least I'm smart enough to know i didn't sign anything or agree to this huge loan for one second and that the bank has no right to bring me into the mix.  It is totally and completely in his hands, and I need strength and patience to keep it that way.

gotta go... .

I

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« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2015, 09:16:48 AM »

Crumbling, I think what you are doing is pretty good at protecting yourself, but not 100% good enough.

The biggest problem I see is that if joint bills are half-paid, as in paid late, and they are in your name as well, it impacts your credit history/credit rating, not just his. So a better system is in order.

How does he feel about the way he handles his finances? Does he have moments where he realizes he's messing it up and wants to do it better?

I could imagine a situation where the two of you opened a JOINT account for joint household expenses (utility bills, housing costs, possibly groceries but more likely not), and both contributed to them equally from your own accounts every month (Preferably direct deposit or automatic transfer from your other accounts). Heck, he might even appreciate it if you actually dealt with the logistics of paying the electric and phone bills from that account.

I could also imagine him seeing a proposal like this as a way to control him, and blowing up at you.
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« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2015, 12:45:08 PM »

Our bills are in his name, simply because he had these utilities when I met him, and they just remained in his name - it's his credit that's hurt by this, not mine... .a small blessing... .in fact, my credit is excellent right now, and I am doing what I can to keep it that way, in spite of my lack of constant income.

I'm still doing odd jobs, small contracts and accepting manna that comes to me to keep my side of things looked after, and it's working which has been great for my morale, in my reality.  In his reality, he is still convinced he is 'supporting me'.  But since I've taken the stand to not rescue him, he is realizing how much he leans on me.  I'm slowly pulling away, and letting him stand on his own.  This touches everything in our lives, and the financial aspect of things is just one of them.

The really good side of all this is that it's tax time Being cool (click to insert in post)  time to tally it up  Smiling (click to insert in post) and  put the two numbers side by side, spending vs income. Time for the bottom line.    I love numbers, they never lie.  Being cool (click to insert in post) 

His reality will be shaken, yet again, and I'm prepared to stand with him, and help him through it gently and at a distance.  But he dysregs so much, and he has no control, or so it seems, during those times.  I am so grateful for the warmer weather, because getting space is simply a matter of stepping outside and using my legs.  I'm using it often and it helps a lot!  And I am getting better at using SET vs over-validating/enabling... .I think.

How does he feel?  Used, stuck in a corner, lonely, weight of the world on him and him alone, wallows in self-pity and anguish, angry as bloody he! at me for everything.  It's volatile.  I'm also pretty strong, and with my new 'C Team' lined up I'm ready to take this stand.  He knows there is a magical line drawn in the sand and that if he crosses it, I will protect myself and flee.  I think he may be categorized as low-functioning.

You're right, GK, I'm not doing everything right.  I'm okay with that.  This week, I'm practising processing negative thoughts, and not needing to be perfect is something I'm focused on achieving.     And I like the idea of having a joint account, where we both deposit equal amounts.  I'm going to think about this option.

CE -    I'm so sorry things are in a negative spin for you right now, thanks for sharing that.  You have safe haven, do you?  Please let me know what T shares, if you like.  I'm mostly just left feeling helpless when he drinks, and run every time this happens.  It sucks living on someone else's time, this way.     together we are stronger  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

RR - We are involved in our govt programs, and I am taking whatever is available.  I have also begun to lean on my spiritual leaders a little more, which has honestly, been way more helpful in seeing results... .but I digress... .I am grateful for all of it.  It takes different ingredients to make a cake, right.  Same thing, healing help comes in many forms.  I'm learning to grasp this concept so I don't feel so alone.  I got him into T last time, and I'm not ready to invest any more time into this goal.  He has already proven that it isn't helpful unless it comes from him and him alone.  That's my reality.

John Love - we are so far from being able to do anything together... .a good day is when we can be in the same room at the same time without hurting each other with words.  Instead, I am re-establishing a more important relationship, the one with my higher power.

There has been quite a break down of our relationship in this past year.  His lame attempt at T has hurt us far more than he is willing to accept. All I can do right now is focus on re-building the person I was before I started to mould my being to his. 

Right now, I have put my faith in God to reveal my path, and I am willing to do what I need to to be who I am in God's eyes... .it's all I really have left to believe in.  The other day, I reminded h that we vowed God would always be the tie breaker in issues if we disagreed on something.  He immediately changed the subject.  He knows I've reached out to do mission work away from home.  He refuses to accept it, or even acknowledge it.  But that's okay.  I'm not hiding it.  He can play ostrich if he chooses.  But I think he realizes I'm letting God lead me, and ergo, us.

If this hurts his ego, than that is his consequences, and his to shoulder or heal from, right?... .or is it?  It seems, I should be compassionate with him at these times.  I have made a choice that has resulted in him being hurt, and I would want to ease that blow, no matter whom it is.  But am I rescuing him when I do this?  I'm a caregiver at heart and sorting all this out has been a real process for me.

  

Thank you for being here, BPD Family!

and blessing all,

Miss Crumbsy

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« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2015, 01:23:00 PM »

Well, I suspect that from a financial point of view, you are doing the best you can with your current level of income and current circumstances.

As for the joint account--work on fair contributions from both of you rather than strictly equal contributions, if your respective incomes are very different. It is also messy if you a prior agreement to pay half, but he's behind in his half, and you've covered for him in the past.

My advice is to think about this and how it might work... .and then sometime when he's receptive, gently float the idea at him of opening a joint account to pay joint obligations. Don't push it; let him consider it, and see how he feels about it. This only helps if it eliminates a fight between the two of you, not if it moves the fight from one topic to another.

I'm still doing odd jobs, small contracts and accepting manna that comes to me to keep my side of things looked after, and it's working which has been great for my morale, in my reality.  In his reality, he is still convinced he is 'supporting me'.  But since I've taken the stand to not rescue him, he is realizing how much he leans on me.  I'm slowly pulling away, and letting him stand on his own.  This touches everything in our lives, and the financial aspect of things is just one of them.

The really good side of all this is that it's tax time Being cool (click to insert in post)  time to tally it up  Smiling (click to insert in post) and  put the two numbers side by side, spending vs income. Time for the bottom line.    I love numbers, they never lie.  Being cool (click to insert in post) 

His reality will be shaken, yet again, and I'm prepared to stand with him, and help him through it gently and at a distance.  But he dysregs so much, and he has no control, or so it seems, during those times.

Numbers don't lie... .but nothing good will come of repeating what they say on your part.

He's not doing this stuff because he's STUPID. He's doing this stuff because he's compulsive/disordered/etc. Knowledge and logic haven't been able to fix him yet, and the math at tax time won't change that.


Instead... .build on what you have been doing that is helping you so much--working on yourself, your relationship with your higher power, living in accordance with your values, protecting yourself, and being as kind and generously supportive (not enabling) with him as you can be. 


Every now and then pause to re-evaluate the distance you are creating between you and him. Some of it is healthy for both of you and protects you. Some of it may not be. And as you get stronger, you may find that you feel more confident and comfortable being closer to you, and can revisit these.
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« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2015, 07:51:33 AM »

Once again, with the changing of the seasons, things here are going to change soon.  Both our financial situations will be different come spring, and I'm considering having my t's crossed and i's dotted when that happens - ready to present a proposal to him.  If I can better protect my own disposable income from his insistent spending, then winter next year will be so much easier.  That's my goal on this.

I was thinking equal amounts into the joint account, but after those expenses, an agreement to also tuck away a percentage of the disposable, based on individual salaries.  I know my h and I know the savings will need to be out of sight in order to stay out of mind.  This is the part where I am going to need his trust, because he will not be able to not spend what goes in there, so I need control of it.  A double signature required may be the key... .

I worry about whether I'm right about things a lot!  When I say something is black, he says white.  It's a bit mind-bending sometimes, so for me, seeing the bottom line is going to feel good.

-----------------------

He knows now that I'm trying to sort out my actions to know what is enabling him and what is actually really helping. 

He forgot something at the neighbour's place two days ago.  He has driven by their house no less than six times since then.  But he has put it in my charge to pick up this forgotten item, and is really taking it personally that I wont go get it.  He gets into this 'if you really love me, you'll do it' mentality, and nothing I say can challenge it.  It's such a small thing, I almost went this morning before logging on here to get it, just to keep peace.  But I know it's best I hold my ground.

Anyway, I finally told him last night that I feared that if I did this for him, it would be just another example of me rescuing him when he is quite capable of doing it himself.  He dysreg'ed, and stomped off, after telling me I was stupid, inconsiderate, selfish, hypocritical... .anyway... .you know what it's like. 

He knows he has issue with wanting to be rescued.  And I think he may even realize that he paints himself as pathetic or incapable, just to be rescued and not because it's really the case.  What he hasn't figured out is how not to do it.

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« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2015, 08:23:23 AM »

But back on the "black if you do, black if you don't" topic... .

The other day I felt cornered into yet another loose-loose situation.  I acknowledged his words and why I understood what he was saying, but that for my own protection, I needed to step away because for me, anything I did would be wrong and I wasn't going there.  I said that sometimes, the only way to not loose, was to not play the game, and that was my choice.

He looked at me like I had three heads, so I repeated myself - if I do A, I will feel this way and if I do B, I will feel that way, and I don't want to feel either one, so I just need to not get involved.  He responded with 'Some partner you are' and walked away.  I didn't give up.  I followed him.  I said, you are actually telling me that because I'm not willing to feel used or cheated I'm not being a good partner.  I guess if you need to be with someone who you can use, then I'm not the woman for you.  Then I walked away.

I know this is frowned upon, this in your face defensive language, but it seems to be the only thing that he hears.  If I had just let him walk away, he would still be lost in his own reality.  Now he knows my reality... .isn't that a good thing?

I know pwPBD say things they don't mean and regret later, but if we never hold them accountable to those words in the moment, are we not making things worse?  Does it not help him to see what impact his words have on me, in my reality?
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« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2015, 09:22:56 AM »

Regarding finances... .I'd suggest you go one step at a time.

Start with a joint account to pay joint bills... .where you and he agree on the contributions you each make... .and agree on exactly what joint items are to be paid for out of it, before you fund it.

Until that is agreed upon and working well, I'd steer clear of a joint rainy day / winter season savings account.

But back on the "black if you do, black if you don't" topic... .

The other day I felt cornered into yet another loose-loose situation.  I acknowledged his words and why I understood what he was saying, but that for my own protection, I needed to step away because for me, anything I did would be wrong and I wasn't going there.  I said that sometimes, the only way to not loose, was to not play the game, and that was my choice.

He looked at me like I had three heads, so I repeated myself - if I do A, I will feel this way and if I do B, I will feel that way, and I don't want to feel either one, so I just need to not get involved.  He responded with 'Some partner you are' and walked away.  I didn't give up.  I followed him.  I said, you are actually telling me that because I'm not willing to feel used or cheated I'm not being a good partner.  I guess if you need to be with someone who you can use, then I'm not the woman for you.  Then I walked away.

I know this is frowned upon, this in your face defensive language, but it seems to be the only thing that he hears.  If I had just let him walk away, he would still be lost in his own reality.  Now he knows my reality... .isn't that a good thing?

I know pwPBD say things they don't mean and regret later, but if we never hold them accountable to those words in the moment, are we not making things worse?  Does it not help him to see what impact his words have on me, in my reality?

You are right that he won't hear you otherwise. Does he need to hear you?

Enforcing boundaries on your part can be done simply with actions, no words needed. He will figure it out. Don't tell him this:

Excerpt
for my own protection, I needed to step away because for me, anything I did would be wrong and I wasn't going there.

DO IT, without saying anything. If you are in a situation where you need to step away to protect yourself from the crap he's about to say or already started saying, step away.

If you only enforce boundaries when he approves of this on your part, your marriage isn't going to improve.

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« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2015, 02:09:41 AM »

Crumbling,

I have to say, you're doing pretty good, with the exiting if no option is right for you; so keep doing that.

It's the only way to counter emotional blackmail.

Every now and then you'll fail, and get dragged into it, but your skill will grow with every incident.

If you need some leads, Susan Forward has a good book on this.

So keep going, things will improve (for you).



Jack

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« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2015, 08:21:06 AM »

Does he need to hear you?

This is the million dollar question, IMO.  I'd know what was right if I could answer this.

It feels like he needs to hear me.  I need to be heard by my partner, at times, it's a natural desire for me to want, no?  But is it a healthy path to take for the dynamic of this r/s?  That I don't know.

He can be very relentless at times, and unless I give him an inarguable, my side of the coin statement, he continues to nag and harass me to do as he sees fit.  Not knowing what is going on in my head is fuel for his insecurities, it seems, and exemplifies his dysregs.
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« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2015, 09:56:51 AM »

Does he need to hear you?

This is the million dollar question, IMO.  I'd know what was right if I could answer this.

It feels like he needs to hear me.  I need to be heard by my partner, at times, it's a natural desire for me to want, no?  But is it a healthy path to take for the dynamic of this r/s?  That I don't know.

Let me make some suggestions for you about being heard by him--all PRACTICAL suggestions to make you healthier and happier

Boundary enforcement to protect yourself, he does NOT need to hear why. Telling him why you are enforcing a boundary is Justifying (part of JADEing) and invalidating to him.

The act of enforcing a boundary is often smoother with some simple minimal communication on your part. ("I'm going out" "I won't discuss that now" etc.) None of that needs to be done ahead of the time you enforce the boundary, and sometimes you don't even need words. (For example, enforcing a boundary might be not answering your phone if he calls back immediately after you ended a phone call because it was abusive/dysregulated. No words needed)

You need to be heard and validated. You need your feelings heard and validated. Those needs are very real. Look to Team Crumbling for them--your H isn't up to the job. Also look for ways you can validate yourself.

If you depend on your husband "hearing" you, especially about how he's hurt you, you are stuck. He's not capable of it most of the time. You are very likely to get hurt and disappointed if you choose to be vulnerable this way with him.

You want this kind of partner. It is a completely natural desire. And it isn't going well, is it.

Accept that he's not capable today. Grieve the marriage that you dreamed you would have, perhaps thought you actually had, and are now hoping you may have with your husband. Radical acceptance is hard. You may need some very private time to cry over this.

As long as you are thinking/hoping that your marriage is something different than it is, you won't make good choices on how to live in it, or whether you want to stay. You will feel more powerful and more in control of your own life when you choose what you want to do about the marriage you are actually in.

And you will probably weep over what it isn't. I know I am. Doing both, in phases.   Trust that this path is better even when it isn't easy.

 GK

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« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2015, 07:07:11 PM »

Crumbling,

I have to say, you're doing pretty good, with the exiting if no option is right for you; so keep doing that.

It's the only way to counter emotional blackmail.

Every now and then you'll fail, and get dragged into it, but your skill will grow with every incident.

If you need some leads, Susan Forward has a good book on this.

So keep going, things will improve (for you).



Jack

Thanks, Jack.  I'll look into her book.
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« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2015, 07:15:07 PM »

I'm finding myself on the brink of tears a lot lately, and this could easily be why, this need to mourn what could have been, and what was, in my head, at the beginning.  

I wait till he's asleep, sometimes, and cry my eyes out.  Today, even tho it was a super successful day, and I'm turning in tired and happy, I still spilt tears three times today.  

Thanks for talking things thru with me.

blessings,

c.
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« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2015, 08:25:58 AM »

Boundary enforcement to protect yourself, he does NOT need to hear why. Telling him why you are enforcing a boundary is Justifying (part of JADEing) and invalidating to him.

... .point taken.  It is an attempt to justify my actions, I see that now.  But what can I do/say to halt the conversation when he is pushing me to do something I know isn't healthy/right for me?  I don't know what else to do, but to put it in his face on how I see the situation.  He can be so persistent, and puts pressure on me to act/respond right now, like he needs the answer.  When I simply walk away, or ignore it, he puts on more pressure.  Eventually, I need to come back, right?  Eventually we are back in the same room and things pick up right where they were when I left.  That seems to be when I lash out like a caged animal... .that 'back off, buddy' feeling is what seems to trigger me into saying these things.  I need to find a better way to cope/deal with this.

You need to be heard and validated. You need your feelings heard and validated. Those needs are very real. Look to Team Crumbling for them--your H isn't up to the job. Also look for ways you can validate yourself.

If you depend on your husband "hearing" you, especially about how he's hurt you, you are stuck. He's not capable of it most of the time. You are very likely to get hurt and disappointed if you choose to be vulnerable this way with him.

You want this kind of partner. It is a completely natural desire. And it isn't going well, is it.

No it is not going well.  This is a good reminder.  I'm so full of hope, so full of maybe someday... .it's hard to accept what is for what it truly is. 

I had a good discussion with my T the other day about denial.  We were discussing judgements vs opinions vs facts.  When I look at the facts of my marriage, I come to the same conclusion over and over.  I keep wanting the facts to be wrong.  I keep wanting, hoping for a better way.  I keep telling myself that things will be different and nothing is forever.  He said no matter what I hope, or dream, or want, or feel - facts are facts.  And not seeing them for what they are is denial.

Ever since I began this journey into making things better in my life, I've really felt myself evaluating what it is I think the marriage is capable of, and what is actually our reality.  I fluctuate a lot between feeling like I'm mourning the loss of what could be to thinking there is hope for change.  I do mourn what I wanted the marriage to be sometimes, and it is so hard to accept what is.

It was almost easier when I felt nothing for him.  Last Christmas, I was at a point where I was too tired to be angry, too hurt to care, too defeated to want to try and ready to block him out of my life completely, at least emotionally, if not physically.  As awful as being in that place is, at least there was no hope clouding my judgements at that time.  But everything looked so bleak, I didn't know if I would make it through.  I think it was the shift to hoping to salvage myself, rather than the marriage, that helped me get out of that mess. 

And my crying spells... .these seem to be in line with symptoms of pre-menopause, according to my doctor... .yet another issue I may be denying in my life.

This healing journey is tough.  It's like stripping away layers and layers of old paint off a hundred year old chair... .as each layer is stripped, yet another one emerges.  Each a different color, a different chemical makeup and each needing different methods to be peeled away successfully.
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« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2015, 08:39:49 AM »

I guess the bottom line is, if I am going to stay in this marriage and stay happy and healthy, I need to appreciate the things that contribute to my well being from my marriage, but to not expect anything more from it than what I have now. 

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Grey Kitty
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« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2015, 09:19:02 AM »

Boundary enforcement to protect yourself, he does NOT need to hear why. Telling him why you are enforcing a boundary is Justifying (part of JADEing) and invalidating to him.

... .point taken.  It is an attempt to justify my actions, I see that now.  But what can I do/say to halt the conversation when he is pushing me to do something I know isn't healthy/right for me?  I don't know what else to do, but to put it in his face on how I see the situation.  He can be so persistent, and puts pressure on me to act/respond right now, like he needs the answer.  When I simply walk away, or ignore it, he puts on more pressure.  Eventually, I need to come back, right?  Eventually we are back in the same room and things pick up right where they were when I left.  That seems to be when I lash out like a caged animal... .that 'back off, buddy' feeling is what seems to trigger me into saying these things.  I need to find a better way to cope/deal with this.

Walking away or ignoring what he wants to talk about is a little on the passive aggressive side... .and more invalidating than you need to be.

The assertive solution is to directly state that you aren't going to talk about "X" where "X" is the topic that isn't healthy/right for you to talk about.

How about one of these?

"I can't talk about 'X' today."

"I won't talk about 'X' today."

"I'm too upset to talk about 'X' now."

"If I discuss 'X' with you now, I'll blow up at you."

Follow it with something to switch conversation to something safer... .only walking away if he is too persistent.


The key here is being aware of what the triggering topic is... .and being mindful of how you feel about it. This is a boundary you are enforcing to protect yourself from being triggered and lashing out at him, and feeling like crap over it later. And how YOU are feeling at that moment determines how much you need to do to protect yourself.

If you are aware that the subject will get you upset, but aren't triggered yet, you can gently re-direct the conversation or state one of those boundaries.

If you are already upset/triggered, and feel like you are hanging on by a thread, you need to get away faster, and perhaps not so gently.

If you notice you are already triggered and engaged in a fight with him, get out NOW! You are already making things worse, time to stop!

And if you notice that he is bringing up a difficult topic... .but are feeling completely grounded and feeling compassionate toward him, look for the feelings he is expressing, and validate them.

Your mood can bounce between these states very fast. Don't be surprised if you have bounced through two of them on the way to a third before you even catch yourself--Being mindful like this is hard. Noticing what happened after the fact is still good progress for you. Do the best with what you have at the time. 


Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) This statement is great.

I guess the bottom line is, if I am going to stay in this marriage and stay happy and healthy, I need to appreciate the things that contribute to my well being from my marriage, but to not expect anything more from it than what I have now. 

How does it feel to you with the modification I made?

One of the co-captains of Team Grey Kitty has a favorite saying:

Excerpt
My life got so much better when I stopped arguing with reality!

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