When SET backfires

[Cat Familiar]

I've read lots of stories here about people using SET where it hasn't worked out too well. Usually it's because there's not enough S and E before T.

Last night I was using it with my husband and I used plenty of S and E, and while we were talking, he told me he felt like I was dissecting him like a bug under a microscope. I hadn't even done any T.

Have you had this experience?

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[MaroonLiquid]

I've read lots of stories here about people using SET where it hasn't worked out too well. Usually it's because there's not enough S and E before T.

Last night I was using it with my husband and I used plenty of S and E, and while we were talking, he told me he felt like I was dissecting him like a bug under a microscope. I hadn't even done any T.

Have you had this experience?

I think just like anything else, there can be "too much of a good thing" with SET to where it feels like patronizing (even though you're not, but I have gotten to where I recognize by doing it, they will see it that way)... .Sometimes it comes across as trying too hard... .I've gotten to where sometimes I just listen for a while.

[Skip]

I've read lots of stories here about people using SET where it hasn't worked out too well. Usually it's because there's not enough S and E before T.

Last night I was using it with my husband and I used plenty of S and E, and while we were talking, he told me he felt like I was dissecting him like a bug under a microscope. I hadn't even done any T.

Have you had this experience?

The key to SET is the E = empathy statement.

I've worked with a lot of members and this is the area that is most often lacking when SET is failing.

The reaction you're getting is suggests that your efforts are coming off as contrived (not sincere) - remember, people with BPD are extremely perceptive.

SET is a skill.  It takes time to master.

Can you share the an example (precisely) of what failed?

[MaroonLiquid]

The key to SET is the E = empathy statement.

I've worked with a lot of members and this is the area that is most often lacking when SET is failing.

The reaction you're getting is suggests that your efforts aren't believable - remember, people with BPD are extremely perceptive.

Can you share the an example (precisely) of what failed.

One other thing I have figured out, at least with my wife, is I don't use SE-T if dealing with surface emotions.  I have to get to the "root emotion" before doing it or it irritates her. 

[takingandsending]

Skip and Maroon,

That's the problem I stumble on most often. I sometimes really don't know what emotion my wife is having. Sometimes, it will seem like she is feeling sorry for herself, so I will say something like, "It hurts sometimes when ... ." or "I can see you are sad ... ."  But what she is really feeling is angry about something. Of course, she is always happy to provide course corrections. 

Cat, was your husband already escalating, or was it a relatively peaceful or more inward moment? I have mostly abandoned SET when the temperature is rising - I give a short dose of validation and start to disengage as gently as I can (which is not always gentle when I am triggered).

And, insofar as empathy being contrived or not contrived, my kind teacher once taught that it's okay to fake great compassion for others because, through habit, genuine compassion will gradually result. I temper this advice with knowing that this faking has to be accompanied by some degree of mindfulness of your thoughts. Faking it while wanting to strangle your partner needs to be improved upon. 

We are all works in progress, and so are our abilities to communicate with loving kindness.

[Skip]

Cat, was your husband already escalating, or was it a relatively peaceful or more inward moment? I have mostly abandoned SET when the temperature is rising - I give a short dose of validation and start to disengage as gently as I can (which is not always gentle when I am triggered).

Good advice!

And, insofar as empathy being contrived or not contrived, my kind teacher once taught that it's okay to fake great compassion for others because, through habit, genuine compassion will gradually result. I temper this advice with knowing that this faking has to be accompanied by some degree of mindfulness of your thoughts. Faking it while wanting to strangle your partner needs to be improved upon.  

Agreed for compassion. Empathy is not compassion which is a common misunderstanding of the tool.

Skip and Maroon,

That's the problem I stumble on most often. I sometimes really don't know what emotion my wife is having. Sometimes, it will seem like she is feeling sorry for herself, so I will say something like, "It hurts sometimes when ... ." or "I can see you are sad ... ."  But what she is really feeling is angry about something. Of course, she is always happy to provide course corrections.  

This is really where we run the risk of missing it.    And I think you are on point - we have to get the read first. Sometime we have to ask.

[Cat Familiar]

Thanks for all the replies. I do realize as a novice practitioner of SET that it can come off as phony or contrived and that I need to be really mindful in using it. That said, the context was that my husband was telling me that he felt isolated, alone, without friends and that I get so involved in the things that I do that he feels "taken for granted."

I was able to put aside any possible irritation I might ordinarily have felt by his comments. (Being by myself for a week while he was out of town has allowed me to recharge my batteries so that I have a lot more patience and compassion.)

I don't think I overdid it on the S and I probably could have used a bit more E.

He wasn't dysregulating at the time, but after the dissecting comment, he started getting really upset. When he started using abusive language toward me, I left the room after telling him that was unacceptable.

He followed me a few minutes later into the laundry room, where I was starting to put some clothes in the washer. I stopped what I was doing and gave him my full attention. Then he repeated some of the S and E statements I had made. He accused me of getting him to open up and be vulnerable just so I could attack him.

I did not in any fashion attack him and at that point I thought it was time for a bit of T. I told him that he had every right to feel "taken for granted" but that his demeanor lately toward me appeared to be anger. He became really upset and ranted about me attacking him. I told him that I listened to his emotions and now I was just telling him how I felt he had been acting toward me lately. (Earlier in the evening I asked if he had perceived me as having been critical of him at any time in the last week or shaming him--two of his ongoing complaints about me. He admitted he hadn't.)

He told me I would never forgive him and I would constantly criticize him (the criticism and shaming I had done was due to his drunken behavior in the past). I told him to stop and quit telling me how I felt or what I would do in the future.

I told him I wanted things to work out between us.

He said that he didn't trust me and he missed not having someone he could be open with. I told him I felt the same about the latter. We ended the evening on somewhat of a cordial space and both went to bed in separate rooms as we usually do.

This morning he actually apologized for coming across as angry and said that was a bad habit. So I guess the SET didn't backfire as much as I thought when I first posted this thread.

Thanks everyone. I'll try to add more E next time and see how that works.

[Skip]

He accused me of getting him to open up and be vulnerable just so I could attack him.

I did not in any fashion attack him and at that point I thought it was time for a bit of T. I told him that he had every right to feel "taken for granted" but that his demeanor lately toward me appeared to be anger.

Do you think this sounds like "you are being treated badly and you deserve it".  

Is this the "truth" you are delivering?  Putting this in a SET format doesn't make it more palatable.

What you describe above sounds like a continuing cycle of conflict.  You are triggering (reaction based on past experiences), he is triggering, and you are fighting.  I can feel the conflict even now, reading your description.

He said he felt taken for granted and vulnerable.  What should the SET have been?

S=

E=

T=

[Cat Familiar]

Do you think this sounds like "you are being treated badly and you deserve it".  

Is this the "truth" you are delivering?  Putting this in a SET format doesn't make it more palatable.

What you describe above sounds like a continuing cycle of conflict.  You are triggering (reaction based on past experiences), he is triggering, and you are fighting.  I can feel the conflict even now, reading your description.

He said he felt taken for granted and vulnerable.  What should the SET have been?

S=

E=

T=

At that point, I wasn't even motivated to do SET. I just wanted to tell him how I perceived his behavior toward me lately.

If I had done SET at that time it would have been like this:

S= I'm sorry you feel unappreciated and taken for granted for all the things you do.

E= I know I would feel bad if all my contributions weren't appreciated too.

T= I do notice all the wonderful things that you do and I appreciate you for being in my life.

When I told him that he came across as angry, it would have been hard to deny, though he tried, since he was dysregulating and had just previously said some ugly things to me. I managed to stay centered and assert that he appeared angry and that was the sum total of my communication. He could say that I was "destroying" him with criticism at that moment, but I didn't add anything else to my comment. And ultimately he saw the truth in what I said--it just took him several hours to admit it.

[takingandsending]

Hi Cat.

Ugh, Skip's comments are pretty on the money for how I often do SET. Darn him!

Still, I think the feeling sorry for himself thing is actually being pretty heavily in the midst of dysregulating, which in my own experience, my attempts at SET don't work and usually end up triggering us both. I am guessing that your H was not feeling isolated/alone, though this is how he expressed it to you. My hunch is he was feeling anger and resentment and maybe underneath that was wrestling with shame/self confidence issues that were driving him to project outward. I think your revised SET would not have escalated things, may even have had some palliative effect. But your truth really isn't in there either (although that statement you made may be entirely true). The truth that you want to communicate to him seems more along the lines of "Maybe we can make some plans to spend some time together after I'm done with the laundry" or "I like to being with you. Let's talk about what we can do together this evening."

I have watched our MC do the empathy so wonderfully, but it takes almost a whole session of it to get my wife to let her guard down and trust a little. The MC engages, sidesteps verbal abuse graciously, and keeps asking gentle questions to work into what is really going on in my wife's emotions. What strikes me is almost a sense of horror, and I wonder whether or not I am really committed to working that hard to make things work. When I have talked to my MC individually, she assures me that this is not my work to do - I am not to be my wife's counselor. So I just try not to make things worse, but maybe, as Skip points out, I am actually hiding behind the communication tools without really committing to them. The only thing that I know is by keeping some boundaries and trying to not JADE, I sometimes get to some true empathy and compassion. I have to maintain that level of opening, even if it is not much, to remain in this relationship. I accept that my relationship with my wife may never be reciprocal, heart filling, romantic, gentle, but I need it to be civil and somewhat kind to stay connected to my core values.

Man, this is hard work.

[Cat Familiar]

Still, I think the feeling sorry for himself thing is actually being pretty heavily in the midst of dysregulating, which in my own experience, my attempts at SET don't work and usually end up triggering us both. I am guessing that your H was not feeling isolated/alone, though this is how he expressed it to you. My hunch is he was feeling anger and resentment and maybe underneath that was wrestling with shame/self confidence issues that were driving him to project outward. I think your revised SET would not have escalated things, may even have had some palliative effect. But your truth really isn't in there either (although that statement you made may be entirely true).

Thanks, Takingandsending, I think you're right that the primary emotions were anger and resentment. Earlier in the evening, I was trying to validate and use SET to assure him that I cared about his feelings. He's so distrustful (and I've never done anything in our 10 years together to warrant distrust) that sometimes I just want to take baby steps to get him to realize that I am indeed on his side. And if I could accomplish that, I could state the underlying T which is: If you want me to be close and spend time with you, you might not want to act angry at me on such a regular basis. (Really, why would anyone choose to spend time with someone who is surly and rude? Since he's been back from his trip, I have done nothing that even comes close to criticizing, yet on a few occasions when I've tried to hug him, it's like hugging a statue. Yet he wants that closeness, or so he says.)

I can't do anything about the past when I pleaded with him not to abuse alcohol. I never intentionally shamed him. I told him I was worried about his health. I told him that when he was out of control it really upset me. I said I loved him and didn't want him to hurt himself. I showed him research which demonstrated his health problems were likely linked to his substance abuse. All this equaled shaming and criticizing in his mind.

And so I'm painted black. But today, I see a bit of a white light shining through and I'll just keep on being positive and upbeat.

Actually I think that for me staying grounded and not getting upset when he dysregulated caused him to be even more upset. I can be very logical and unemotional and he thinks that means that I don't care, but I've had a lifetime of dealing with pwBPD who have raged at me and I decided long ago that I don't need to get sucked into their drama. Now I'm feeling strong enough that I can typically sidestep it without feeling my emotional state get triggered much at all--thankfully.

[JohnLove]

I have watched our MC do the empathy so wonderfully, but it takes almost a whole session of it to get my wife to let her guard down and trust a little.

Man, this is hard work.

T's are often pretty well versed and highly skilled at this as they have lots of practice with lots of different people. It can be very enlightening to observe, although sometimes even with all their skills and experience (and lack of historic trigger points) they can get it wrong and trigger the client. They try to do everything to avoid this as it often results in the client not returning and nothing being gained by either party.

It can be incredibly hard work... .the person applying SET has to be constantly mindful, do some mindreading, while being very observant... .and sometimes there is just no winning.

Even when you do everything optimally, a dysregulation and rage sometimes seems preprogrammed. We are discussing mental illness here.

And sometimes it just takes time for them to process the experience to get the desired outcome as Cat Familiar has experienced... .

... .and sometimes the train is just going to jump the tracks regardless.  

The point being if you want the relationship you just have to be so focused on their needs and keep trying... .although that in itself can be very trying    

[Cat Familiar]

S= I want things to work out between us.

E= You did open up and were vulnerable and I do see why you feel I attacked you especially when I said ______ (use an example he used if you can).

T= _________________

What is the "truth" that should be here, Cat Familiar?

Skip, the difficult part is the E in your phrasing. He felt attacked just because I was being empathetic and understanding about how he felt alone and unappreciated. (I just happened to be in an extremely mindful mood and I said nothing that was in any way attacking or criticizing him. He's so ultra-sensitive at times that if I hesitate for a moment before responding to a question, he'll assume I'm taking the opposite side and arguing with him, when I'm merely trying to formulate my response.) Sometimes he's reacting to an expression that crosses my face and he'll make assumptions that I'm angry or being critical, when in fact, I'm merely confused or some other completely benign emotion. Then when I try to tell him how I really feel, he'll argue with me because he knows the truth. It's really crazy making.

So the T is "I'd like to feel comfortable around you and accepted and then I'd be glad to spend more time with you."

[Cat Familiar]

T's are often pretty well versed and highly skilled at this as they have lots of practice with lots of different people. It can be very enlightening to observe, although sometimes even with all their skills and experience (and lack of historic trigger points) they can get it wrong and trigger the client. They try to do everything to avoid this as it often results in the client not returning and nothing being gained by either party.

Yes, I saw this happen with the psychologist who did MC with us. She is so good at being empathetic, yet just one "off" word--that no one else would even respond to--and she set him off. It could be something as simple as using a past tense instead of a present tense.

It's been wonderful doing therapy with her. Our MC wasn't productive other than somewhat improving our communication, but individual therapy is great and I don't have to describe him at all. She has already seen him rage (and sometimes it was at her) so she knows exactly what I'm dealing with.

[Cat Familiar]

Well, now some time has passed since my shaky attempt at SET and his dysregulation. As I mentioned, the next morning he woke up and realized that indeed my assessment had been correct--he was in a state of perpetual low-grade anger toward me. He apologized and since then, he has been kinder and much easier to be around--the anger isn't directed at me anymore, which is a relief.

So, though I didn't follow the SET format correctly and I inserted a Truth amidst a dysregulation, I think it was that I held my ground during the dysreg., didn't get upset or thrown off center, and simply phrased my Truth--it all worked!

Next time I try SET, I will be more aware of using more E. This gets tricky because if I start talking about myself, then he thinks I've taken over the conversation and redirected it towards me and my feelings.

Lawyers are so attuned to any verbal misstep so I have to be soo careful with my choice of words or he'll jump on some clumsy phrasing and ignore the meaning.

[Skip]

This gets tricky because if I start talking about myself, then he thinks I've taken over the conversation and redirected it towards me and my feelings.

It helps to not phrase your empathy in terms of yourself.  Rather than "I would feel that way too, if... ."  simply go with "I can see that you... .

[Cat Familiar]

This gets tricky because if I start talking about myself, then he thinks I've taken over the conversation and redirected it towards me and my feelings.

It helps to not phrase your empathy in terms of yourself.  Rather than "I would feel that way too, if... ."  simply go with "I can see that you... .

Thanks, Skip. That helps.

I'm certainly learning to up my game verbally in this relationship. Even though I was previously employed as a writer, my verbal skills have always been sloppy. I like writing because I can edit. So my new challenge is to edit my words on the fly... .

[Skip]

... .he woke up and realized that indeed my assessment had been correct--he was in a state of perpetual low-grade anger toward me. He apologized and since then, he has been kinder and much easier to be around--the anger isn't directed at me anymore, which is a relief.

Was any of his assessment correct?

[Cat Familiar]

Was any of his assessment correct?

I can understand how he felt "taken for granted" because I am very good at doing things I enjoy that are not things he is interested in. I have friends that I see regularly and we ride horses and I can get really involved in home improvement projects and gardening as well as keeping the house clean and organized--none of these have any interest or relevance to him.

When he's in a bad mood, I avoid him. I try to get him to talk about his feelings, but most often he refuses. So I go on my merry way and I think that if I'm in a happy mood, it's such a mis-match, it makes him even more upset and feeling like he has no one he can relate to. (I'm not willing to share in his depression. Been there, done that, have the T-shirt.)

My suspicion is that he has a co-morbid diagnosis of paranoia in addition to the BPD. Our therapist told me that he has a PD, but she didn't define it and I didn't press her to do so. I'm not the only one who is the target of his suspicions.

[Skip]

I can understand how he felt "taken for granted" because I am very good at doing things I enjoy that are not things he is interested in... .

Are you willing to find some interests that you both can enjoy together?

[Cat Familiar]

I can understand how he felt "taken for granted" because I am very good at doing things I enjoy that are not things he is interested in... .

Are you willing to find some interests that you both can enjoy together?

I am. I haven't been very motivated to do so when he's been in an angry mood.

Part of the issue is that I'm very comfortable being a country gal while he's a city boy. So many things that must be done at home to take care of animals and gardens make it difficult for me to travel much and really I don't like being away from home.

He likes traveling yet if I don't go with him, he gets really lonely and often cuts a trip short.

So, to do things we both enjoy, I need to initiate. Lots of things I suggest are not interesting to him, especially when he's in a depressed state. I guess I should just say that I really want to do something and he'll come along, reluctantly, to please me, then he'll enjoy it when he forgets about being bummed out.

But when he was in the midst of his grumpiness, I had very little interest in doing much of anything with him. I acknowledge that this led to a downward spiral, but I needed to put the oxygen mask on me first and that meant not participating in being around his anger.

Now that he's trying, I can see it would be good to initiate spending more time together and I'm willing to do so.

[Grey Kitty]

A thought about SET: The truth is easier to swallow if it is an external one which isn't debatable rather than your choice, your feelings, or your boundary enforcement.

Things like this... .

T: If you don't pay your car insurance, the insurance company will cancel your policy.

Work better than things like this... .

T: "I'd like to feel comfortable around you and accepted and then I'd be glad to spend more time with you."

[Cat Familiar]

A thought about SET: The truth is easier to swallow if it is an external one which isn't debatable rather than your choice, your feelings, or your boundary enforcement.

Things like this... .

T: If you don't pay your car insurance, the insurance company will cancel your policy.

Work better than things like this... .

T: "I'd like to feel comfortable around you and accepted and then I'd be glad to spend more time with you."

So how about this T: If you don't act like a f'n a-hole, I'll spend time with you.          (I really would never say that)

[Cat Familiar]

Maybe I could try this. T: When you're in a good mood, I love to spend time with you.

It's really difficult trying to use this format to communicate this particular thought. It's pretty elementary-school simple. "Be nice and people will want to be with you. Be mean and you'll be alone."

[Skip]

It's really difficult trying to use this format to communicate this particular thought. It's pretty elementary-school simple. "Be nice and people will want to be with you. Be mean and you'll be alone."

So how about this T: If you don't act like a f'n a-hole, I'll spend time with you.         (I really would never say that)

In reading your posts and your description of his reactions, I get the sense that you may actually be communicating this loud and clear.  Let's face it - it's how you see it.  If he's BPD, he's very perceptive.

It's destructive, demotivating, hurtful.

Maybe I could try this. T: When you're in a good mood, I love to spend time with you.

Positive reinforcement and rewarding good behavior is far more effective than punishing bad behavior.

[Grey Kitty]

It isn't that those things aren't TRUE.

It is that using the SET format to communicate them doesn't do as much as you might think to make them palatable.

[123Phoebe]

S= I want things to work out between us.

E= You did open up and were vulnerable and I do see why you feel I attacked you especially when I said ______ (use an example he used if you can).

T= _________________

What is the "truth" that should be here, Cat Familiar?

So the T is "I'd like to feel comfortable around you and accepted and then I'd be glad to spend more time with you."

Hmm, could this actually be both of your "truths"?  How would you respond if he said this to you?  Can you imagine it, what it would feel like?

[Cat Familiar]

It's really difficult trying to use this format to communicate this particular thought. It's pretty elementary-school simple. "Be nice and people will want to be with you. Be mean and you'll be alone."

So how about this T: If you don't act like a f'n a-hole, I'll spend time with you.         (I really would never say that)

In reading your posts and your description of his reactions, I get the sense that you may actually be communicating this loud and clear.  Let's face it - it's how you see it.  If he's BPD, he's very perceptive.

It's destructive, demotivating, hurtful.

Maybe I could try this. T: When you're in a good mood, I love to spend time with you.

Positive reinforcement and rewarding good behavior is far more effective than punishing bad behavior.

Yes he is very perceptive. And yes, I've been feeling profoundly burned out by his rampant negativity. (However, currently since my failed SET attempt, he has been very pleasant and I'm so thankful and appreciative of it.) I have one of the best poker faces around and my husband would agree that I'm almost always in a very happy upbeat mood (I save my rants for here and occasionally I share with my friends) and I'm consistently pleasant and kind to him. It's just that probably when he needs it the most and is really down and thus really angry, negative and hurtful, I just have to steer clear of him for my own mental health. I regularly check in with him so it's not like I'm abandoning him, but I really don't see any positives for either him or me in participating in his negativity.

And I do give him lots of positive reinforcement for his good behavior, but like lots of pwBPD, it's almost never enough.  

[Cat Familiar]

S= I want things to work out between us.

E= You did open up and were vulnerable and I do see why you feel I attacked you especially when I said ______ (use an example he used if you can).

T= _________________

What is the "truth" that should be here, Cat Familiar?

So the T is "I'd like to feel comfortable around you and accepted and then I'd be glad to spend more time with you."

Hmm, could this actually be both of your "truths"?  How would you respond if he said this to you?  Can you imagine it, what it would feel like?

Yes, Phoebe, I'm sure that he feels this way. The problem is that I do currently accept him, but he's still thinking I'm judging him based on some of his previous alcoholic acting out. There were times I had to judge whether to call 911 when he mixed alcohol with pills. (My EMT training is so long ago, but I did my best to make sure he was OK and fortunately I decided correctly. Now, if I had to do it over, I would have definitely called 911 and let him deal with the embarrassment of waking up in the ED.)

So, really no matter what I now do, I've instilled shame in him and he thinks I'm judging him. Fortunately he's come to his own conclusions about the wisdom of drinking excessively and is less likely to do it.

[JohnLove]

I was also picking up on the dark undertones of your communication. I understand perfectly how you could feel that way... .but potentially you may be undermining your relationship... .to a degree. The awareness that you have "instilled" shame in him is interesting... .the shame was probably there all along.

I haven't missed that the pwBPD in our lives can almost do no wrong with their disordered, outrageous, and intolerable behaviour... .but that we get to be criticised for our (relatively) minor blunders when faced with extreme stress and undermining, criticism, and personal attacks in the relationship.