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Author Topic: Living with silence?  (Read 845 times)
Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #30 on: March 16, 2015, 08:06:16 AM »

What if... .

You are driving down the highway, about 70mph.  Suddenly in front of you, you notice what appears to be... .a unicorn?

This doesn't make sense does it?

You try to make sense of it:

You wonder how it got there.  You ask yourself, "Is it really a horse that came from the side of the road?"  You scan the shoulders of the highway and look for a grassy woody area that maybe it came from.

You then think, but the horn?  Surely the only possible explanation is that this must be an ordinary animal, a horse maybe, that somebody glued a horn to as you know unicorns don't exist.  If this is an altered animal, well then maybe you start scanning the vehicles around you.  Maybe this animal actually was being delivered to a circus and fell off a truck?  So you look in your mirrors and try to find a truck that may be carrying animals.

What if... .

The unicorn is like their emotions. 

Their emotions are somewhat familiar, somewhat foreign.  They can't usually figure out where they came from.  For them, emotions just popped into thin air.  If they are forced to try to think about it and explain it, just like the story of the horse with a glued horn, on it's way to a circus, they have no choice but to invent what happened.  They look for a context for the emotion but are usually left blank, with no context they can discern.

If that really happened, a unicorn on the road in front of you.  Imagine if everyone looked at you and really expected this was a normal occurrence and that you had to know where it came from.  What if everyone thought it made sense and expected you to KNOW where the heck it was from and how it got there and what you were going to do with it?  They casually tell you that they knew where their last unicorn came from, why can't you tell them too? 

What would you say?  Would you get mad, think they are nuts?  Scream, "how am I supposed to know? unicorns (anger) don't even exist! I never see unicorns (anger)!"  Maybe you would try to avoid their questions as it would be too stressful to confront their differing reality? 

Now imagine, you are back in your car again.  That unicorn in front of you is still there!  You didn't have time to react.  You accidentally ran over the unicorn!  Now you are thinking, "how could that even be?"  "This isn't possible as they don't even exist."  "Even if they did exist, they are supposed to be magical creatures and it should have leaped away."  "I couldn't have hit that!  Darn it, why did they have to keep talking about that unicorn!  If they didn't have me so focused on unicorns, I probably could have not hit it, it probably wouldn't even be there in my way."

Maybe their disconnect with their feelings, trying to make sense of them would be similar? 

Maybe if someone said to us, "Hey, you are right, there is a small circus traveling into town.  I bet you just saw one of the animal performers today."  How relieved would we be?  Would we gratefully accept and take this explanation and keep it as our own?

Idk, what do you guys think?

Maybe I've gone too far deep and have lost my own mind?  Lol!
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Notwendy
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« Reply #31 on: March 16, 2015, 09:52:25 AM »

I think your description is a good one. I think their feelings seem like unicorns because they were invalidated by their parents. One aspect of parenting is validating children's feelings. A child would run to his parent saying "I'm sad, or I'm scared" and the parent would say " Oh honey, I know that is scary", or "You feel sad when Billy won't share his toy with you". Kids eventually learn to identify feelings and self soothe.

In my H's house, nobody talks about feelings. They may deal with them indirectly, but not say anything. They don't express affection either. His mom is very caring, but through actions- cooking, taking care of the family but she is passive aggressive with negative feelings and not direct. Dad was a good man in the traditonal sense- ethical, worked and supported his family, but he was a verbal bully. He said something negative about almost everything. If my H said he wanted something, or liked something, his dad would say " You don't want that". You don't like that" What do you want that for?". There was no way my H would express feelings to his parents, especially his dad, and especially feelings that were considered feminine. ( Dad was a macho man).  It is no wonder that feelings are like unicorns in his family.

Hmm, that might explain why he doesn't tell me he wants something and then does it in secret, and tries to keep some money that I don't know about. Maybe, emotionally he thinks I will invalidate his wanting something. It can also explain why he gets upset when I want to talk about finances- and feels as if I am somehow invalidating his contribution to the family by trying to talk about the topic.

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« Reply #32 on: March 16, 2015, 11:03:47 PM »

Notwendy, that is interesting, as when I find out something that H didn't tell me, he gets angry at me as if I am "spying" on him. I came to find out that H thinks things in his head, but doesn't realize he didn't tell me his thoughts. Then, he gets embarrassed because he thought he told me, but he didn't. So he has to turn the problem onto me. I'm "spying", not he "didn't actually tell me."

Sunfl0wer, do you think his notes were partly things that he thought she SHOULD have thought of, but couldn't? I know my H can't remember most things three days previous. He just doesn't have the processing ability to manage that, especially when he is dysregulated. But he remembers all the definitive BAD things (in his opinion) from way back.

The most intriguing part of this for me is that there are several things that have come up recently (H and his parents talking about past events) that I would have considered child abuse, and my H and his family are acting like it's all a big joke (tossing your 7 and 9 year old children out of a boat in open water with life jackets on and telling them to get back in the sailboat as it keeps shooting by; taking your children out to the woods with no shelter, food or water for the night to "show them what hungry is"; forcing them to jump rope continuously for three weeks because the teachers at school were concerned that 8 and 10 year old boys could not jump rope-what boys jump rope?) This comes back to the invalidating environment, as what child flailing about in the open water, unable to get into a sailboat, wouldn't be terrified? But his parents have convinced H that it was no big deal (H's brother still thinks it's a big deal-he seems to have come out of this a little more centered)

If you think you cannot say anything without being told you are wrong, or not allowed to have your own opinion, what is the point of talking about anything opinion oriented? And if you can't depend on your own perception of anything, you'd start using everyone else's perceptions. And if somehow you did come up with your own opinions or perceptions and someone disagrees with them, it seems like you'd have to go into fight or flight mode because you aren't secure enough to know it's OK to have your own opinion or perception. I never thought about what a lousy environment that must have been to grow up in.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #33 on: March 17, 2015, 05:08:53 AM »

Offroad- you have brought up an interesting point. My H once brought up an incident that was, without a doubt, child abuse on the part of his father. He wouldn't do this to his kids, but he denies that there was abuse. If I say anything about his family that indicates that I think things were not so OK as he thinks they are, he considers that to be disloyal and critical.

Very interesting dynamic, since this is the typical pattern of these kind of families- denial. Mine too, with the exception that I was aware things were not right, even if I was not allowed to say anything to my parents about it. The other difference is that I was the black child in my family and my H was the white child, so it is possible he didn't experience more of the darker aspects of his family life like I did, and is also more enmeshed emotionally. The keeping a secret stash of food, cash, fear of things being taken from him, need to keep some things from me, may be remnants of childhood, and this may be deeper than I have any idea of.

Then, there was the time that I wrote about when we were visiting his family and I wanted to leave because of a storm coming, not wanting to drive in it, and that became a rage about me not being nice to his family. That response seemed irrational at the time, but it would make sense if there is any fear of offending them or triggering them.
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« Reply #34 on: March 17, 2015, 06:13:30 AM »

I have deep and meaningfuls with my partner. BUT they always seem like reconstructs, it is like a complicated excuse to cover up the fact that there is no consistent deep and meaningful. Almost like a crib or plagiarism of some insights she heard somewhere else and is trying to shoehorn it into her explanation of her own thoughts.

Subsequent actions or conversations often bear no resemblance to previous deep and meaningful "self revelations"
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« Reply #35 on: March 17, 2015, 06:21:09 AM »

I agree with that Waverider. It is more obvious to me with my mother. It is eerie to me to see that she sometimes bases her "mothering" memories on what I have told her about me and the kids. She will sometimes ask me my opinion about something, and then turn around and say it as if it were hers.

I used to wonder what kind of "deep" thoughts my H has, and I really don't think they are there. I think it is more like the static on a TV screen when the chanels go out. I think his slow labored responses are a result of him having to construct something to say out of their library of borrowed scenarios.

It makes sense in the context of being abused. I suspect that my mother was abused as a child, although I will not know for sure as any perpetrator must be long gone by now. Abuse would make you disconnect from yourself. They may not be able to access deep thoughts if those events are traumatic. It is so sad really- if we think about it in this context.

I wonder if therapy is successful at bringing out some of these issues for them?
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« Reply #36 on: March 17, 2015, 06:44:42 AM »

I find in therapy my partner can bring up some previously unheard of isolated incident which to me sounds twisted or even made up, that is often given more weight to explain behaviors... Then its never heard of again. It can send therapy off on a red herring.
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« Reply #37 on: March 17, 2015, 07:03:08 AM »

I remember a few years ago when my mother, after a major disregulation, explained her behavior to me as something that happened with her mother. I was thinking this wasn't really the reason, and - whatever she was referring to happend 50 years ago.

It seems to me that considering this as a disability is more realistic, but to do so, is also giving up hope in a sense because although people can improve function with a disability, in many cases, one can not entirely correct it. If we had a spouse who could not walk, we would arange the house with rails, ramps, invest in equipment that would be helpful, physical therapy to make them as strong and healthy as possible, but we wouldn't be trying to make them walk would we? We would also love and accept that person for who they are as well. We might wish they could walk but recognize that expecting them to is not a realistic approach.

How much of this idea is being realistic, and how much is enabling their dysfunction by just not bothering to try to talk to them in a meaningful way? Sometimes my H tells me he thinks I have "written him off" because he senses that I have stopped trying to talk to him as much  in a deeper sense, yet there is some truth in that because it has not been effective. As much as he seems to dislike it, I also think he relied on my efforts to keep some communication like this going.
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« Reply #38 on: March 17, 2015, 07:15:04 AM »

It is validating for them to be heard, even if the message is jumbled and maybe wide of the mark. Its the process, not the resolution, that matters. Its the reason I engage in the deep and meaningfulls without really expecting to find the answer to everything in some hidden nugget.

Its a kind of venting I guess... Most venting is catastrophizing by nature. Maybe a lifetime of having these 'vents" being dismissed creates an insecurity blockage.
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« Reply #39 on: March 17, 2015, 07:31:14 AM »

That's a good point Waverider. Again, it is easier to see with my mother, whose boundaries are loser than my H's. It seems as if she'll say anything, while he spends a lot of energy judging and filtering what he says to the point that he doesn't reveal much of anything unless he is raging and that is when the filter is off.

Feeling invalidated is much of the theme for my mother. I think my H feels this too, but doesn't express it. Just about anything can result in my mother feeling invalidated. Even the off handed hint of a suggestion can set her off. For instance she was asking my advice about some painters in the house. I mentioned that it made a bigger mess than I expected, and since I wished I had done this- that it might be less of a cleanup if she put some things in boxes ahead of time. This resulted in her becoming dysregulated because she assumed that I was telling her what to do because I didn't think she knew what to do and so on.  When my dad was sick, I had asked some questions about his medication. Her take on this was that I was only criticizing her. My H thinks a lot of what I say is criticism when it is not.

So, I get the concept of them experience being heard as very important regardless of the content. I think we all need that.
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« Reply #40 on: March 17, 2015, 03:58:26 PM »

Offroad- you have brought up an interesting point. My H once brought up an incident that was, without a doubt, child abuse on the part of his father. He wouldn't do this to his kids, but he denies that there was abuse. If I say anything about his family that indicates that I think things were not so OK as he thinks they are, he considers that to be disloyal and critical.

***Respectfully snipped for space***

Then, there was the time that I wrote about when we were visiting his family and I wanted to leave because of a storm coming, not wanting to drive in it, and that became a rage about me not being nice to his family. That response seemed irrational at the time, but it would make sense if there is any fear of offending them or triggering them.

It makes me wonder if their sense of identity is so skewed that they think of themselvesas extensions of their parents. If they could only do things the way their parents said it had to be done, and now they do it that way and think it's the only way to be done, if a SO criticizes the parent, it's like we are criticizing our SO themselves.

Sorry, didn't mean to derail the communication thread. It just makes me think of why a pwBPD might have so much trouble communicating with their SO, when they seem able to communicate with others. I'm pretty convinced now that it's just because we know them like no one else does.
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« Reply #41 on: March 17, 2015, 04:07:59 PM »

You haven't derailed it at all. It has given me different ways to think about it. Communication has been something I have truly struggled with the entire marriage- how can someone so intelligent not be able to talk? It baffles me. I have not seen anything like it. When people think of communication difficulties, they think of people with autism. However, people with autism tend to be honest, and speak their mind. The tend to not try to make their words what they think other people need to hear. I have found it easier to communicate with people with autism than to communicate with my H... and it makes me so sad sometimes that I can't get through that voice in his head that overwrites what I say.
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2015, 07:43:00 PM »

Excerpt
Lots of times I've tried to have a conversation with my husband about something and I'll ask "is this because of x?" And instead of the conversation continuing, he will say, "I'll have to think about that." It effectively stops the convo and of course he never gets back to me about it.


What happens if you get back to him on it.  "Hey... .you've been thinking about xyz for 2 days now... .I'm interested in listening to your thoughts?"

(Apparently idk how to quote within quote... .hopefully you recognize your writing guys.)

Omg, don't get me started!  It would drive me nuts! Mines' favorite phrase was: "oh, I haven't really thought of that."  He used it to get out of almost any conversation.  I DID go back to him for opinions the next day.  He either didn't get around to thinking about it still, or would want to hear my thoughts first, or had some really lame one dimensional basic thought that often didn't demonstrate he even understood the point much.

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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2015, 07:59:40 PM »

Excerpt
I must think on this. This might explain why H was always insisting that the kids do things HIS way, whereas I would show the kids the way I did it, then tell them to adjust as they needed to for themselves.

Offroad, I wonder... .

My ex did this, but he was inconsistent.  For the first year dating, when at his house, he insisted the dishes be washed a certain way, in a certain order, to maximize use of the soap and water etc.  He would keep correcting me, like a child, and I politely did this because I got the sense that it was an important ritual passed on by his grandmother.  Then at some point he abandoned this "need."

I think that he borrowed his grandmas way for only a period of time... .but then another period of time... .will insist loading the dishwasher another way.  It is like his opinion rotates once in a while like some spinner and it points to one option at a time.

Whereas, non's can combine ideas from several sources and created their desired "procedure."  I think he cannot combine and filter ideas, so he just picks the one that is at his awareness for that time.

I think this is also why he cannot compromise, he can't pick apart thought, take what he needs, create new ideas from it and come up with a new thought.
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« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2015, 08:18:31 PM »

I think that he borrowed his grandmas way for only a period of time... .but then another period of time... .will insist loading the dishwasher another way.  It is like his opinion rotates once in a while like some spinner and it points to one option at a time.

Whereas, non's can combine ideas from several sources and created their desired "procedure."  I think he cannot combine and filter ideas, so he just picks the one that is at his awareness for that time.

I think this is also why he cannot compromise, he can't pick apart thought, take what he needs, create new ideas from it and come up with a new thought.

I agree that they just pick the one that is at their awareness for that time. When stressed, my H has to do certain things certain ways. He then backslides when the need to be in control has passed and cycles through again when the stress levels rise. The more out of control he feels, the more he has to grab onto some "routine" that he doesn't have to think about, just do.

I go back to the communication issue and think that if their minds are stressed (which might happen when we ask them something they don't have a ready answer to), they can't pick through the thoughts they have stored quickly enough to come up with an answer. This would explain why they might use something someone else said, because it is at the forefront of their mind.
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« Reply #45 on: March 18, 2015, 11:30:36 AM »

Thanks to all... .you have so hit the nail on the head for me!

I still struggle with basic communication/conversation with dBPDgf.

So intelligent, so outgoing with others, but can't talk to me about anything.

And like was stated, when asked a question, I can be faced with a two minute eerie silence while she searches for an answer. But say something else in that time frame and she becomes unglued and visibly upset that I derailed her train of processing. She will also tell me to slow down, count to ten, and THINK about MY responses before I answer her.  Trying to pull me to her level, perhaps.

We used to have great convo in idealization phase. Now those topics are either depressing, broken dreams, not interesting, or "we've already talked about that". Does anyone else deal with "I've got lots to share with you, but I'm just not there with you yet"? She wants to tell me feelings and history, but perhaps can't face it herself.

I feel this drives us apart more than anything. I feel I could understand more, based on my BPD readings--but it's difficult without all the puzzle pieces.

I can also identify with "rotisserie" procedures. Everything done a certain way with certain materials, until she flips it, and doesn't ACTUALLY tell me to do things differently, but then I get treated like a 5th grader. Usually I'm told to "write it down" so I can study and remember it.

This is 10 times tougher than I expected, and sometimes I treat her like an old college roommate.  Just do my own thing, cook my own dinner, and show minimal interest in her activities. Not exactly the r/s I even remotely imagined.   
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Sunfl0wer
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« Reply #46 on: March 18, 2015, 03:24:26 PM »

Excerpt
And like was stated, when asked a question, I can be faced with a two minute eerie silence while she searches for an answer. But say something else in that time frame and she becomes unglued and visibly upset that I derailed her train of processing. She will also tell me to slow down, count to ten, and THINK about MY responses before I answer her.  Trying to pull me to her level, perhaps.

YES!  The pause he takes, it is like a whole 3 mins!  I actually had to ask if he understood, heard, etc.  but then he would be furious as, he was "thinking," and my question interrupted his thought process!  Then we are fighting about THAT!  So I started with a hand signal to signal: "are you thinking?"  But he would still find reason to be enraged that I wasn't being considerate, I interrupted etc.  So I decided on emails, then he could review that I was in fact being reasonable.  But then he began to refuse emails, complained I was making a big deal out of things!  I was going out of my fricken way to accommodate his lack of logic!  (I guess not actually too logical of me after all!  Lol!)

Excerpt
We used to have great convo in idealization phase.

Yes! This is what I fell in love with!  Where did it go?  I guess it wasn't there? 

Excerpt
I can also identify with "rotisserie" procedures. Everything done a certain way with certain materials, until she flips it, and doesn't ACTUALLY tell me to do things differently, but then I get treated like a 5th grader. Usually I'm told to "write it down" so I can study and remember it.

Lol!  We need to start a new thread! Or maybe article.  Topic: invented vocabulary. "Rotisserie procedures" I love it!

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« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2015, 04:41:17 PM »

In idealization phase or with strangers they can 'wing it" with whatever statement they feel will impress, and they are good at it. You don't know enough about them to see through the hot air.

If someone knows them well then they know you will see through the polished presentation to the lack of substance beneath. Hence they doubt their own ability to sound confident. Hence they can falter completely. They can't offer opinions they believe may be open to debate, they need to believe they are right, or at least sell that image, before stepping up to the podium.

Think of it as how we would approach public speaking, if you believe your audience is informed enough to justifiably question your statements, you become reluctant to step up, and voice your somewhat questionable knowledge.
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« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2015, 05:08:28 PM »

"YES!  The pause he takes, it is like a whole 3 mins!  I actually had to ask if he understood, heard, etc.  but then he would be furious as, he was "thinking," and my question interrupted his thought process!  Then we are fighting about THAT! "


The interval between words is frustrating and yes, I get accused of interrupting his thought processes if I say anything.
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« Reply #49 on: March 18, 2015, 05:25:06 PM »

Where were you guys 5 yrs ago?

J/k, very grateful! Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #50 on: March 19, 2015, 01:02:46 AM »

The interval between words is frustrating and yes, I get accused of interrupting his thought processes if I say anything.

Also the intervals at the end of sentences. You think they are finished because the silent space is so long, but they aren't. Then you are accused of interrupting.

This is especially tough for me. I came from a family where we talked rapid fire, sometimes spilling over each other, but we all knew exactly what each other had said and kept building upon the various conversations going on at once. I've run into other people who are this way, but it drives H crazy ( also his mother). What frustrates H even more is that the kids and I can get into rapid fire mode, and he cannot keep up at all so he gets mad, even if he wasn't part of the original conversation.
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« Reply #51 on: March 19, 2015, 06:46:13 AM »

Drives you even madder when you are busy doing things around the house and you are expected to stand in the doorway to see if convo has finished or not, meanwhile the taps left running, bursting to go to the loo, rushing to get dinner cooked etc. Then you get "see you just walk away when i'm trying to talk to you"
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« Reply #52 on: March 19, 2015, 07:12:05 AM »

Excerpt
Drives you even madder when you are busy doing things around the house and you are expected to stand in the doorway to see if convo has finished or not, meanwhile the taps left running, bursting to go to the loo, rushing to get dinner cooked etc. Then you get "see you just walk away when i'm trying to talk to you"

Yup!  Or the opposite would happen.  He would walk away like the conversation was over, like he was trying to escape, hoping I'd forget.  I'd ask, uh, are you not going to respond?  Then he'd be pissed and say he intended to but just had to use the toilet or something.  Huh?  He'd just walk away, not an: "be right back" or anything, just would walk away with me in suspenseful waiting and staring.
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« Reply #53 on: March 19, 2015, 07:48:08 AM »

Mine will say something completely unrelated to the conversation. I wonder if it is a tactic. I could be discussing something that is important to me, or personal, and then he will say something like " I need to buy new socks".

Once he did that, and I responded with "Oh look! A squirrel!"  He did laugh.
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« Reply #54 on: March 19, 2015, 02:37:04 PM »

Drives you even madder when you are busy doing things around the house and you are expected to stand in the doorway to see if convo has finished or not, meanwhile the taps left running, bursting to go to the loo, rushing to get dinner cooked etc. Then you get "see you just walk away when i'm trying to talk to you"

Yes, and g-dforbid if you cough, clear your throat or dare to say something during the long pause. 
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« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2015, 02:40:06 PM »

Mine will say something completely unrelated to the conversation. I wonder if it is a tactic. I could be discussing something that is important to me, or personal, and then he will say something like " I need to buy new socks".

Once he did that, and I responded with "Oh look! A squirrel!"  He did laugh.

If I'm saying something personal, he often won't say anything at all, just sit there like a lump, not giving me eye contact, or sometimes he'll pick up his iPad and start Googling. It's unbelievably disrespectful when he demands my full attention, yet he doesn't see how he comes across as so disinterested and unkind.

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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
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« Reply #56 on: March 19, 2015, 03:02:09 PM »




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This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .

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