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Author Topic: Speak no evil about the checking account  (Read 488 times)
flowerpath
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« on: March 16, 2015, 10:33:58 PM »

I'm working on changing my role as far as our finances are concerned.  One of those ways is to stop warning my H about how the balance in the checking account is getting low and that he needs to stop using the debit card until there's another pay check. 

He had a fabulous spending spree over the weekend, and I know he's oblivious to what's left in the account.  This is nothing new, only this time I'm not worried because I have been saving money in a different account.  I'm just finding it really hard to keep my mouth shut about the balance in our joint account.  There won't be any fees because there's no overdraft protection.  He will just have the card declined if he spends too much more.

It's hard to break out of this caretaker role and just keep my mouth shut and watch. 
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« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2015, 12:51:33 AM »

One of those ways is to stop warning my H about how the balance in the checking account is getting low and that he needs to stop using the debit card until there's another pay check.

Hi FlowerPath.

How does he normally react to your warnings?
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« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2015, 10:29:33 AM »

It's hard to break out of this caretaker role and just keep my mouth shut and watch. 

Yes it is hard.  Stay the course.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2015, 12:01:31 PM »

It's hard to watch them get served with consequences without trying to step in and rescue them from their embarrassment. But it's necessary for them to learn.

My husband washes the cast iron frying pans and puts them on the burner to dry them out, then walks away, sometimes leaving the house while the burner is on. I turn it off and then tell him (equals criticizing and shaming) or I don't tell him and just get irritated that it's happened again. (I'm glad that he does some cleanup in the kitchen.)

The other day I was taking a bath and when I got out of the bath, there was the characteristic odor of an overheated cast iron pan. I shut off the burner and calculated that it had probably been on at least 20 minutes. When he returned to the house, he could smell it and he profusely apologized. I told him we all forget sometimes. And he said he was determined to never forget again. I told him he probably wouldn't.
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« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2015, 04:28:23 PM »

Hi FlowerPath.

How does he normally react to your warnings?

It varies, NGU.  Depends on his mood.  Sometimes it's an "OK.", sometimes it's a whiny "Whyyyyyyy?",   and other times it's "I'm sick of hearing about money!"   (I’m sick of the pattern! )

Yes it is hard.  Stay the course.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I will, Aurylian.  Thanks for the encouragement.  I want to stop being his mother!

OK.  Just this very minute, he sent me a text asking whether I want him to pick up a special dessert from a restaurant he is about to pass by!  When there is just enough money in the account now for him to buy a tank of gas!   

... .and puts them on the burner to dry them out, then walks away, sometimes leaving the house while the burner is on... .

Cat, you too?   I can’t even count the number of times he has left the burner on – with and without pans…and also with the burner barely turned on, but with no flame…and gas leaking out.  Sure would hate for the consequences to be our house going up in flames.  His mom absentmindedly set her kitchen on fire this very way.




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« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2015, 11:40:15 PM »

Money issues are hard.  I have stopped giving my partner money when she runs out. We have separate accts. but I pay for just about everything.  Her lack of financial responsibility really bothers me but I see how I have allowed it by not setting any boundaries over the years. I thought that at some point (when she finished school, when she got this job, when she got that job) she would understand that she needs to help out more but it never happened.
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« Reply #6 on: March 18, 2015, 03:34:58 AM »

My partner claims to be a great budgeter. problem is she has no idea what the word is. She cannot regulate anything, that is just BPD. She doesn't spend a lot, because she rarely goes anywhere. There is no 'budgeting' as in in balancing money in vs allocating money out. It is just a word that is thrown about.

Nothing I can do will teach her otherwise, it is simply an alien concept. As a result I just have to work my safety net so that life continues on regardless of how she handles money.

Motivation is purely  impulse and neediness. Obligation and responsibility simply don't factor, other than lip service. I doubt it will ever be any different, or at least in the short term.

You can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear so don't burn yourself out trying.
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« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2015, 07:00:46 AM »

This is nothing new, only this time I'm not worried because I have been saving money in a different account. // He will just have the card declined if he spends too much more.

So instead of getting frustrated about his spending, you set up a card that can get declined. I love the separate-account idea. I understand how he reacts to your warnings. Did he react the same way about his "allowance?"

So let's say he buys too many desserts and winds up with less money than he needs for gas. Would be beg you for more money?

I feel I might be off base with my understanding of how you set things up. Apologies in advance if that's the case. I just woke up. Caffeine hasn't kicked in yet.
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« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2015, 03:13:16 PM »

 

I think this is wonderful... .you have "gotten out of the way"... .of the behaviors that bug you ... .and have let someone else (no overdraft protection)... set the limits for him.

Please keep us updated how this goes... .and how you are feeling about it.

FF
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« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2015, 11:11:05 PM »

Motivation is purely  impulse and neediness. Obligation and responsibility simply don't factor, other than lip service. I doubt it will ever be any different, or at least in the short term.

You can't make a silk purse out of a pigs ear so don't burn yourself out trying.

True.  I had to think about what I was really trying to accomplish.  I realized that the goal of this can’t be to change him.  It has to be for me to step out of the pattern, take responsibility, and be a good money manager myself. 

Her lack of financial responsibility really bothers me but I see how I have allowed it by not setting any boundaries over the years. I thought that at some point (when she finished school, when she got this job, when she got that job) she would understand that she needs to help out more but it never happened.

I have wondered what it is that causes us to have weak boundaries, or to have boundaries in our minds but never let our actions do the talking.  Is it because we very patient and optimistic, and think it’s just going happen because that’s the way it ought to be?  Or is it because we know that by changing the status quo, there will be something even bigger that we will have to deal with?

So instead of getting frustrated about his spending, you set up a card that can get declined. I love the separate-account idea. I understand how he reacts to your warnings. Did he react the same way about his "allowance?"

So let's say he buys too many desserts and winds up with less money than he needs for gas. Would be beg you for more money?

I feel I might be off base with my understanding of how you set things up. Apologies in advance if that's the case. I just woke up. Caffeine hasn't kicked in yet.

You’ve pretty much got it…without caffeine!

Our current joint checking account was set up with no overdraft protection from the beginning... .because of overdraft fees with our previous account.

Some time back, I opened the separate account to save (protect) the small amount of money that I earn from two very small businesses that I have outside my full time job.  He knows about that account, and how I had to use it recently to cover an expense that could not be covered by our joint checking account.  But since he doesn’t watch what’s going on with the joint checking account, he doesn’t know I’m depositing part of my full time salary into that separate account for a safety net. 

To some this may appear deceptive, but enough of this is enough.  He won't talk budgets, and if he looks at one, he puts it aside, and spends however he wants.   

I haven’t even said anything to him about an allowance.   He doesn’t ever check to see how much is available to spend.  He just spends until I say something.  Or if it’s getting close to the end of a pay cycle, he will ask whether there’s enough money to buy….say….gas! 

To avoid looking like I'm a tightwad, beyond what he needs for necessities, the money available to him is more that the other three of us combined spend for fun.

I’m sure there will be a day when the joint account is empty, and that he will ask how much is available in the separate account.   I need to take time to plan how I will respond. 



Please keep us updated how this goes... .and how you are feeling about it.

Well, as of today, with two days left until pay day, there’s now a balance of $9 in that joint account…but I was able to buy some groceries this afternoon with money that was set aside for that in the separate account….and I’m feeling pretty good!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2015, 09:22:19 AM »

Does he have hoarding-type tendencies? Also, does he buy shockingly bizarre things, for example, dog toys if you have no dog?

To some this may appear deceptive

I only snuck on here this morning to see if some of you guys were OK... .I wasn't expecting to have to process thoughts. But then you wrote those six words.

Two days ago, our couple's therapist said we're doing better. Yesterday, my CBT facilitator complimented me on my demeanor and outlook. I've been wondering what factors have helped this happen. Obviously 1) accepting her diagnosis and 2) realizing what I can and can't do to help her improve and/or stay stable.

Today, I realize there's a part of me that doesn't care if I'm deceptive regarding certain aspects of our relationship. I've looked through her email. I've checked her pill bottles to make sure she has enough medication. I've had to give up practically everything enjoyable to keep her from getting upset, so I hide my remaining interests; I tell her I'm learning MS Word when I'm actually just writing. I'm on here when she's not looking or when she's sleeping or out of the apartment. I act in ways that I know will help our relationship, even when I don't feel like acting.

I don't feel burdened by that. I don't feel frustrated, upset or guilty. I've even come to terms with the fact I will be moving with her to the city of her choice, and will not be able to assist in any way (at least until the last possible minute), despite my strong need to be proactive and self-reliant. Rolling with the punches is definitely a reason I/us have been getting compliments from therapists... .even though some people who aren't "nons" will say I'm being a p-ssy or simply rolling over for her.

This might not be the correct thread to ask this, but I ask all of you... .can you relate to this? I can't be that wrong, because of the therapy compliments. But suddenly I'm confused. Translation: What the h3ll is happening?

Side note: My wife's been asleep 14 1/2 hours and counting. That means something not-so-good will happen later today.

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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2015, 09:42:10 AM »

A year ago, not aware that something like BPD ever existed, I subconciously decided to split our finances. Since then, I pay fixed monthly maintenance, all our loans and mortgage. She has a job and lives with our kids.

About a month ago, for the first time, my teenagers didn't text me back as they used to and later over the phone they told me they didn't have their phones topped up. Except that they don't use PAYG but a contract(!) And a few days ago our landline was unavailable. She admitted she was late with bills.

Long story, how many times I was trying to make and maintain our budget on paper... .Now, after I know the real reason, I'm going to wait and see what will happen next... .

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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2015, 10:04:12 AM »

Does he have hoarding-type tendencies? Also, does he buy shockingly bizarre things, for example, dog toys if you have no dog?

To some this may appear deceptive

I only snuck on here this morning to see if some of you guys were OK... .I wasn't expecting to have to process thoughts. But then you wrote those six words.

Two days ago, our couple's therapist said we're doing better. Yesterday, my CBT facilitator complimented me on my demeanor and outlook. I've been wondering what factors have helped this happen. Obviously 1) accepting her diagnosis and 2) realizing what I can and can't do to help her improve and/or stay stable.

Today, I realize there's a part of me that doesn't care if I'm deceptive regarding certain aspects of our relationship. I've looked through her email. I've checked her pill bottles to make sure she has enough medication. I've had to give up practically everything enjoyable to keep her from getting upset, so I hide my remaining interests; I tell her I'm learning MS Word when I'm actually just writing. I'm on here when she's not looking or when she's sleeping or out of the apartment. I act in ways that I know will help our relationship, even when I don't feel like acting.

I don't feel burdened by that. I don't feel frustrated, upset or guilty. I've even come to terms with the fact I will be moving with her to the city of her choice, and will not be able to assist in any way (at least until the last possible minute), despite my strong need to be proactive and self-reliant. Rolling with the punches is definitely a reason I/us have been getting compliments from therapists... .even though some people who aren't "nons" will say I'm being a p-ssy or simply rolling over for her.

This might not be the correct thread to ask this, but I ask all of you... .can you relate to this? I can't be that wrong, because of the therapy compliments. But suddenly I'm confused. Translation: What the h3ll is happening?

Side note: My wife's been asleep 14 1/2 hours and counting. That means something not-so-good will happen later today.

You are stopping to think, How is my next reaction going to affect "the big picture"? The best big picture outcome is our aim. The path to this does not lie along our instinctive path. Hence we always got lost. You are learning to get the new map out and work out the best path all over again.

Your partner has never been able to understand their own path and so needs guidance. Too much information will overwhelm them so you have to withhold  some of it for their own good, otherwise they will not follow.

You are taking responsibility and no longer assuming it can be shared equally, that just caused conflict.

I bet most of the dramas you see others having feel trivial now, and you can see them as the defensive and reactive impulses they usually are.

You are developing mindfullness
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2015, 10:49:50 AM »

My H hoards. Not strange things, but things he might need. He's worried about not having what he needs. I used to attribute this to his growing up in a poor family, but there is also sort of a catastrophic feeling about it. If he eats a big meal it's as if he won't ever get anything to eat ( that was relatively true for him as a child, although nobody starved, they would run out). He's got more underwear than anyone I have known - "in case he runs out". If he wants a book, he will buy a whole bunch of them in case he wants to read them. My H has his own fridge and he hoards food. He won't let me throw any of his food out, even if it is past the expiration date. Eventually he does.

For me though, it is a bit different because he is the wage earner, and I am the stay at home mom. He gives me a household budget and I am frugal and responsible with it. He will admit that this is one reason that we have been able to stay in budget. However, I also am grateful that my H is in general responsible for the money, yet he has gone on sprees that just seem crazy to me. I used to get upset and then he'd pull the "I make the money and I get to spend it" and so, I have had relatively little to say about the sprees although I don't agree with his premise as I feel marriage is a partnership. He has admitted that pulling that idea to justify his sprees was damaging to the marriage.

Still, they would freak me out as they seemed so intense. It was as if he is in some kind of obsessive trance when he is in them- like thinking about something, looking for it. He has had several obsessive shopping things over the years with various things. He had some thing about clothing at one point, and I would be driving around during the day and unexpectedly see his car in the parking lot of his favorite store at all times of the day, when I thought he was at work. I wasn't looking for it or spying, it is on the way to the kids' school so I would pass it. This didn't affect his job, since he is self employed and can work later on in the day.

I think the binges and his behavior about them was more damaging to the marriage than the budget. The kids are older now too and notice. I think they think it is wierd but don't say anything.

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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2015, 11:10:07 AM »

You are developing mindfullness

I sure hope that's it.

I bet most of the dramas you see others having feel trivial now, and you can see them as the defensive and reactive impulses they usually are.

I'll be thinking about this further today. For now, I can say that I've always thought people get worked up over too many trivial problems. I still have compassion for people who are genuinely struggling. But yeah, this has toughened me up quite a bit, especially over the last six months. I've also noticed that I'm better able to see through other people's frustrations and interpret their core issues. It feels empowering.

Thanks WaveRider.
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2015, 06:20:39 PM »

It is also a handy benchmark to help you see just how far you have developed when you think you are not getting anywhere. Our perspective is always improving along the journey.
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2015, 06:26:03 PM »

Still, they would freak me out as they seemed so intense. It was as if he is in some kind of obsessive trance when he is in them- like thinking about something, looking for it. He has had several obsessive shopping things over the years with various things.

It is like a transferable OCD behavior, which is one reason many pwBPD are misdiagnosed as OCD as my partner was for many years. The difference is the obsession transfers from one subject (fad) to the next. It is also similar to transferable addictions. This is why they are so hard to address,. It is like playing 'whack a mole'. With each whack taking an enormous effort only to have it pop up somewhere else
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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2015, 08:27:14 PM »

Does he have hoarding-type tendencies? Also, does he buy shockingly bizarre things, for example, dog toys if you have no dog?

I’d say he’s a borderline hoarder.  He sometimes brings home what others have thrown out - things we cannot even use - and puts them in the garage where they stay unused, sometimes for years.  He plans to do something with them, like sell them, but never does, and eventually ends up taking them to the dump. 

He doesn't buy bizarre things.  He buys many small- to medium-expense things that add up dollar-wise.  He sometimes goes wild at the grocery store, buys a lot of fast food, and eats out at restaurants, oblivious to how the cost is adding up.  I don't have a problem with buying treats at the grocery store or going to fast food places or restaurants.  It’s just that he does it so frequently, doesn’t realize that there’s not an endless supply of money for him to do that, and next thing you know, the money is just gone.   

He is walking around here talking to our dog that is no longer with us and opening the door and telling her to go outside, so if he starts buying bizarre things, especially dog toys, I am going to … well …   Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)   

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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2015, 09:40:01 AM »

He is walking around here talking to our dog that is no longer with us and opening the door and telling her to go outside

I just want to make sure I read that right. He's talking to your departed dog and physically interacting with her by opening a door?
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2015, 09:43:25 PM »

You read it right.  It's a sad loss for sure, and I know it takes time to heal, but he can't just gently let it go.  Maybe because of emotional immaturity?  Maybe it won't go on for long. 
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2015, 10:43:00 PM »

... .and puts them on the burner to dry them out, then walks away, sometimes leaving the house while the burner is on... .

Cat, you too?   I can’t even count the number of times he has left the burner on – with and without pans…and also with the burner barely turned on, but with no flame…and gas leaking out.  Sure would hate for the consequences to be our house going up in flames.  His mom absentmindedly set her kitchen on fire this very way.

This seems very odd, are they trying to hurt you two and make it look like an accident?
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2015, 11:19:43 PM »

I think here it's a result of being distracted. 
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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2015, 11:26:14 PM »

I think here it's a result of being distracted. 

Just be aware of what is happening.
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« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2015, 07:26:24 PM »

It is about need and impulsivity being prime motivators while responsibilty and obligations are low motivator.

Turning something on, or opening something, is an action to meet a need. turning it off, closing & putting things away is a responsibility.

eg My partner will bake up a storm to impress me, but leaves the kitchen looking like preschoolers have been having playtime in there. Net result is I am not impressed with her baking in the kitchen. However there is no effective way of communicating this.

Turning the oven on to warm up, then going to bed after changing her mind and not turning it off is common. Leaving fridge doors wide open. Multiply that by every other example of not completing tasks or cleaning up after makes it very hard to address as its the mindset, not just that specific issue. It manifests itself everywhere.

You really have to accept that is the way it is and quietly check, otherwise you will be in constant conflict over an endless stream of issues.
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« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2015, 10:01:40 PM »

You really have to accept that is the way it is and quietly check, otherwise you will be in constant conflict over an endless stream of issues.

Ah, acceptance. Yes.
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2015, 11:22:26 PM »

Wow.  I see it now.  It's not just with money. 

Neediness/impulsivity vs. a sense of responsibility/obligation is absolutely everywhere. 

There really is no good way to address it, because anything said about it comes across as an invalidation. 

Some things I can just let go.  I'm taking care of the things I can't tolerate.   

However, there are some things he starts and doesn't finish that create a LOT of extra work for me and I need to find a way to protect myself from that.  That's a totally different topic. 


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« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2015, 10:23:27 AM »

It is about need and impulsivity being prime motivators while responsibilty and obligations are low motivator.

Turning something on, or opening something, is an action to meet a need. turning it off, closing & putting things away is a responsibility.

My husband used to leave kitchen cabinet doors and drawers open until I complained repeatedly about that behavior (before I knew about BPD). Now that is just one of the ways I "shamed him" in the past for which he doesn't want to forgive me. It's amazing that even closing doors and drawers is "too much work." 
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“The Four Agreements  1. Be impeccable with your word.  2. Don’t take anything personally.  3. Don’t make assumptions.  4. Always do your best. ”     ― Miguel Ruiz, The Four Agreements: A Practical Guide to Personal Freedom
flowerpath
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« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2015, 05:52:07 PM »

Well, I think things may ramp up a bit.  

I've been putting some of my salary into a separate savings account so it will be available for emergencies and as a back up for food and gasoline if my h spends so much that there's not enough left in the joint checking for those things.  

He usually just spends, and does not pay attention to the costs of maintaining our household, so he has not looked at the account online for some time now, and had not noticed that I've been doing this... .until today. 

He noticed a withdrawal that I made to put into savings.  He sent me a text message and asked me what I did with the money that I withdrew.  I said I put it in savings.  He sent a text message, "Which account?"  I haven't responded to the text because this is something I want to discuss in person.

He just sent the text again: "Which account?"

I haven't responded to the text because I'd rather talk about this in person.  I don't want to speculate about how he will respond, but I am getting a little nervous.  Not about holding my boundary, but about whether he will go nuts.   OK. He just walked in the door.

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formflier
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« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2015, 06:45:52 PM »

 

I hope this goes well for you... .I really do.

I'm not the best for finance talks and BPD... .as that was about the only advice I rejected from family T this past summer.

The basic advice was to give them a couple choices... .either of which you are fine with... .let them know that on such and such date... .you will be proceeding... .and not discuss it again.

I've tried so many different schemes over the years for money... .and... .at least in my r/s... .anything that takes consistent agreement and performance of the other party (my wife)... .is doomed to fail.

I'm not happy with our situation now... .but we have a roof and food on table.  Wife now realizes out limitations and is freaking out a bit... .I'm not going to rescue. 

Again... .really hoping the talk goes well.

FF
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flowerpath
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« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2015, 10:56:37 PM »

Thanks, formflier.

I’ve been on pins and needles lately, and I thought he was going to come in all bent out of shape because I didn't respond to the text messages.  

I told him which account and he didn’t ask or say anything else about it, so he may think this is a one-time thing. He walked away, so I didn’t share any information about how I’m saving.  It’s just a matter of time before he stumbles across another withdrawal for savings.  

This is so crazy, to feel so nervous about having to explain saving for emergencies.  I think he will be offended that I haven't said anything to him about how I am saving, but over the years, I too have tried to find a way to work together toward the same goal. He has always gone on with the same spending habits as if I had said or shown him nothing.  

He thinks that to me, everything is about money, but the issue is not money itself or the amount of it.   The issue is being responsible with it instead of irresponsible.  

Thank you for sharing what your therapist suggested.  Two choices that I am fine with…I’m going to look at how I can apply that to our situation.  

You are right.   A roof and food on the table.  There’s little else that is truly necessary.   I’m glad your wife realizes what your situation is.  Hopefully she will gradually come to terms with it and adjust her spending and her expectations until things change.    I've found that a minimalist mindset comes in really handy when times are lean.  

fp

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