New Beginnings & Boundaries 3...

[formflier]

I feel that is almost sending mixed messages on my part and my biggest issue.  Advice I have been given is to, "Make sure your actions back up your words."  What I mean by that is I am trying to show that I want things to work out, and yet by continuing to "separate" things, doesn't that send the other message?  I am trying to be the "even keel" person in the r/s and show that, regardless of what has transpired, that I still love her, that we can get through this together, and want what's best for us, our kids and our r/s.  I also know that she has to want the same things, and believe she does somewhere outside of her illness or she would have already filed if that is what she truly wanted. 

Hey... .let me give you some formflier advice.  Do what works! Stick with what works until it doesn't work anymore.  Then figure out what changed.

your message you are sending is you want a good r/s with her.  separating finances has gotten you a better r/s (I get it... .not the one you want... .but it is better... .right?)


Not disagreeing with Phoebes here... .I'm sensing concern on her part about FB. 

IF you are using it so get a sense of where in the cycle she is... .then I think you are ok.  But... .be careful about the mindreading.  FB is tricky ground... .be aware of it.

FF

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[MaroonLiquid]

Fair enough.

I can't base my life off of feelings.  Feelings almost always lead you astray and why pwBPD are so out there at times. 

Do you remember how you were feeling before checking out her Facebook page?  What prompted you to look at it?

Yeah, I do it when I am missing her.  Missing companionship with her and missing time together.

[Grey Kitty]

I feel that is almost sending mixed messages on my part and my biggest issue.  Advice I have been given is to, "Make sure your actions back up your words."  What I mean by that is I am trying to show that I want things to work out, and yet by continuing to "separate" things, doesn't that send the other message?  I am trying to be the "even keel" person in the r/s and show that, regardless of what has transpired, that I still love her, that we can get through this together, and want what's best for us, our kids and our r/s.  I also know that she has to want the same things, and believe she does somewhere outside of her illness or she would have already filed if that is what she truly wanted. 

... .

Honestly, I am close to laying down the ultimatum that says, "We either start counseling (within a time frame) and work toward reconciling in earnest, or I'm filing for divorce".  And no, it wouldn't be a threat.  I won't wait around forever.  I wouldn't have said that 6 months ago, except out of anger. 

Your wife is giving you a horrible mixed message, bouncing back and forth between wanting you closer and pushing you away, with trying to manipulate you thrown into it. You are clearly sick of it, and that is both valid and reasonable.

Been there. I was getting ready to end it, but my wife realized that she couldn't do it right, so she chose to end it. My wife is high-functioning to the point of no longer meeting diagnostic criteria for BPD. Yours isn't there, so I wouldn't expect that kind of clarity from her.

In your shoes I'd be ready to give up on the marriage--or at least give up on the idea that it would be a fulfilling one.

You are still getting a chance to be a parent. Best for your r/s and best for the kids may not be the same thing.

Are you willing to stay in a this weird push-pull relationship with your wife so you can be a father to these kids?

Ultimatums don't work well... .especially with a pwBPD. I'd recommend you stay away from it. Especially because MC with a pwBPD often follows a path of either the T being completely snowed by the pwBPD and blaming you... .or if the T points out that the pwBPD needs to change anything, the T gets painted black, and T ends.

[123Phoebe]

I can't base my life off of feelings.  Feelings almost always lead you astray and why pwBPD are so out there at times.  

Do you remember how you were feeling before checking out her Facebook page?  What prompted you to look at it?

Yeah, I do it when I am missing her.  Missing companionship with her and missing time together.

So, you look at it when you're feeling lonely and longing?  That is "real", Maroon; those are real feelings. Do you feel closer to her when you can gauge (not engage) what she might do next, based on her postings?  

[MaroonLiquid]

In your shoes I'd be ready to give up on the marriage--or at least give up on the idea that it would be a fulfilling one.

I'm not ready to totally say that yet.  I think she is just now in the uncomfortable place of realizing how different the "reality" she convinced herself of really is"... .

You are still getting a chance to be a parent. Best for your r/s and best for the kids may not be the same thing.

Are you willing to stay in a this weird push-pull relationship with your wife so you can be a father to these kids?

This is what I'm not quite sure of anymore.  Kids need to see stability, and not sure they are really seeing that.  One week I'm there, the next two to four I'm not.  Yes, I may be the "even keel" one when I'm there, but what are they told when I'm not?  And what questions they may have when I'm not!  My oldest daughter and I used to be really close, and now, about the time that she starts to hug on me again, my wife dysregulates.  My son, the same thing.  First time we bonded in forever weekend before last at the lake, and then what happened?  She dysregulates.  Yes, I know that is about her, but I want my kids to see healthiness.  Is that what they are seeing?  I don't want my kids to have an unhealthy view of what r/s are, which is something I have had to fight my whole life.

Ultimatums don't work well... .especially with a pwBPD. I'd recommend you stay away from it. Especially because MC with a pwBPD often follows a path of either the T being completely snowed by the pwBPD and blaming you... .or if the T points out that the pwBPD needs to change anything, the T gets painted black, and T ends.

I get all that.  At the same time, at some point, I have to come to the realization that doing the same thing over and over again is insanity.  Not saying doing something different at this moment, but there has to be a line.  My wife is a very high functioning individual who claims to be great with setting "boundaries", but yet crosses mine all the time.  I don't think she wants a divorce, but at the same time, has had the balls in her court and had no incentive to want to change.  I think a part of her thinks I love her enought to put up with whatever.  I won't.  I think all people (even with mental illness) need to know that at some point you have a line in the sand.  If they choose to cross it, then you have to follow through.  Not as a manipulation, but for yourself.  That gives them room to still change, but also lets them know that you are serious.

So, you look at it when you're feeling lonely and longing?  That is "real", Maroon; those are real feelings. Do you feel closer to her when you can gauge (not engage) what she might do next, based on her postings? 

Yes, exactly.  That is a great way of putting it. 

[123Phoebe]

So, you look at it when you're feeling lonely and longing?  That is "real", Maroon; those are real feelings. Do you feel closer to her when you can gauge (not engage) what she might do next, based on her postings?  

Yes, exactly.  That is a great way of putting it.  

Has it helped?  In what ways?

Is there something you could do, other than check her FB, when you're feeling lonely?  A way to tend to your feelings that don't involve her?

[formflier]

Yeah, I do it when I am missing her.  Missing companionship with her and missing time together.

Dangerous... .make sure you have a wise mind when you open the page.  If missing her... .I say skip it.

Go for walk... .something else.

FF

[Grey Kitty]

You are still getting a chance to be a parent. Best for your r/s and best for the kids may not be the same thing.

Are you willing to stay in a this weird push-pull relationship with your wife so you can be a father to these kids?

This is what I'm not quite sure of anymore.  Kids need to see stability, and not sure they are really seeing that.  One week I'm there, the next two to four I'm not.  Yes, I may be the "even keel" one when I'm there, but what are they told when I'm not?  And what questions they may have when I'm not!  My oldest daughter and I used to be really close, and now, about the time that she starts to hug on me again, my wife dysregulates.  My son, the same thing.  First time we bonded in forever weekend before last at the lake, and then what happened?  She dysregulates.  Yes, I know that is about her, but I want my kids to see healthiness.  Is that what they are seeing?  I don't want my kids to have an unhealthy view of what r/s are, which is something I have had to fight my whole life.

She is the primary parent. She dsyregulates often. I'm guessing she did it more often when you lived there than she does now. Her children are witness to that.

Are your kids seeing healthiness? Not from their mom. Accept that they won't see that from their mom.

Are they seeing healthiness from you? You can live with good boundaries and show them how you handle a difficult person without taking it personally. You have been doing this, and getting better at it, especially in the last few months. I'm going to suggest that they are seeing better in you than they are seeing from other adults in their life. (Mostly your wife and her FOO... .the bar is set pretty low, sadly)

Are they seeing a healthy r/s between you and your wife? No. Are they seeing better behavior than they used to? I hope so.

If you file for divorce, it is certain to trigger your wife. I expect she will step up the parental alienation and withhold the kids from you more completely. (Even mentioning divorce is likely to have that result!) My recommendation is to save mention of divorce until you have given up completely on any romantic relationship with your wife... .and possibly until her kids are grown.

Separating your finances is making things better with your wife... .even if each step apart has your wife kicking and screaming about it. Once it is done, things go smoother.

I've got another thought about how she is LOUDLY expressing your non-existence in her life on facebook and with her FOO and friends. She's doing this to get a rise out of you. She WANTS you to chase after her... .so she can reject you and push you away. It is her coping mechanism. The more you can accept this, and yes, feel the hurt about it, but not react to it, the better off you will be. Once the slot machine (you) stops making any payouts, she will eventually tire of pulling the arm.

[MaroonLiquid]

Has it helped?  In what ways?

in some ways yes, and some ways no.  In ways it has helped, it has allowed me to see that they are all ok when we aren't communicating, and be a part of the kids "milestones" during that time as well (singing the national anthem, special events, etc that I wasn't "allowed" to be there for).  In ways it hasn't, it has made me mad at times with her crap (early on when she would bad mouth me under disguise).  I have learned to not allow her posts to affect me in terms of getting me to react.  If I feel a reaction coming, I will do something else.

Is there something you could do, other than check her FB, when you're feeling lonely?  A way to tend to your feelings that don't involve her?

I play video games when I feel lonely as that passes the time pretty quickly and "forget".  Would that be an example of how to "tend to my feelings that doesn't involve her".

Dangerous... .make sure you have a wise mind when you open the page.  If missing her... .I say skip it.

Go for walk... .something else.

FF

Obviously goes along with what Phoebe said... .I need to read up on wise mind again... .

She is the primary parent. She dysregulates often. I'm guessing she did it more often when you lived there than she does now. Her children are witness to that.

Probably, and she has pointed out (during the first few months) how the kids "acted out" when I'm around.  Not so much anymore.  On the other hand, that could be evidence twisted to say that I am to blame for that since it happens more when I'm around.

Are your kids seeing healthiness? Not from their mom. Accept that they won't see that from their mom.

Are they seeing healthiness from you? You can live with good boundaries and show them how you handle a difficult person without taking it personally. You have been doing this, and getting better at it, especially in the last few months. I'm going to suggest that they are seeing better in you than they are seeing from other adults in their life. (Mostly your wife and her FOO... .the bar is set pretty low, sadly)

I feel they are seeing helathiness from me.  I don't yell, raise my voice, or fight with their mom in front of them anymore.  I stay with them and take care of them.  I help them with homework, sports, and other things when I'm around.  I offer to take them places and go places with them.  Attend their functions when "allowed".  What other father (especially not a biological one) would try and stay involved  as much as I have.  Her FOO is as screwed up, as mine is and that is saying something.  She has no relationship with her mom anymore, she has painted her dad white because he asked her if she was "doing okay financially" (and yet couldn't stand him just two months ago until things blew up with her mom and wanted nothing to do with him).  She hasn't spoken to her oldest sister in 6-10 years, hasn't spoken to her older brother in two years, demeans her younger sister and barely speaks to her because she is bi-polar".  Her other older sister who she has always been close to (was the maid of honor at our wedding) lives a few hours away and barely talks to her anymore (talked almost everyday before) since she has not chosen sides between my wife and their mother.

Are they seeing a healthy r/s between you and your wife? No. Are they seeing better behavior than they used to? I hope so.

I believe they are... .

If you file for divorce, it is certain to trigger your wife. I expect she will step up the parental alienation and withhold the kids from you more completely. (Even mentioning divorce is likely to have that result!) My recommendation is to save mention of divorce until you have given up completely on any romantic relationship with your wife... .and possibly until her kids are grown.

Good point... .And why I am not considering that yet.  The hard thing for me is two-fold: figuring out where my line is and not giving up too soon. I just know that I'm not there yet.

Separating your finances is making things better with your wife... .even if each step apart has your wife kicking and screaming about it. Once it is done, things go smoother.

This is confusing to me.  You would think that each step apart would make her want to go back the other way.  I guess that is the hardest thing for me to get down deep right now.  I guess a disordered mind is something you can't really figure out.  And she probably doesn't realize it either.  But it does make things go smoother.

I've got another thought about how she is LOUDLY expressing your non-existence in her life on facebook and with her FOO and friends. She's doing this to get a rise out of you. She WANTS you to chase after her... .so she can reject you and push you away. It is her coping mechanism.

I see your point here.  What do you think that helps her cope with?  I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

The more you can accept this, and yes, feel the hurt about it, but not react to it, the better off you will be. Once the slot machine (you) stops making any payouts, she will eventually tire of pulling the arm.

I do accept this and feel I'm not paying out.  I know a huge majority of the time I don't, but maybe there is times where I do and don't realize it.  Need to figure that out.  I will delete the app that I use to look at it. 

[formflier]

  Once it is done, things go smoother.

Maroon... .why do you think this is true. 

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon... .why do you think this is true. 

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

The only answer I have is she sees me as more self sufficient, therefore gaining more respect for me, and less like the other men in her life that only used her and were a drain on her.  It also gives her less control over me (which she doesn't necessarily want but doesn't know any other way to cope) which she hates because it makes her feel out of control.

[formflier]

Maroon... .why do you think this is true. 

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

The only answer I have is she sees me as more self sufficient, therefore gaining more respect for me, and less like the other men in her life that only used her and were a drain on her.  It also gives her less control over me (which she doesn't necessarily want but doesn't know any other way to cope) which she hates because it makes her feel out of control.

Pretty good answer.  I'll go with that.

We have to acknowledge we are guessing at why and her thinking... .but this makes sense.

So... .take your above explanation and apply it to the tax situation... .

What answer/actions does it suggest?

[formflier]

I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

Realize this is also a best guess... .especially since your T doesn't treat her.

There could be other explanations... .or multiple odd reasons all tied up together.

ff

[MaroonLiquid]

Pretty good answer.  I'll go with that.

We have to acknowledge we are guessing at why and her thinking... .but this makes sense.

One reason I came to this conclusion is that I truly believe that she thought, just like her ex husband, I couldn't make it without her and would come crawling back to her with my tail between my legs.  I think in her disordered mind that I was just like her ex and her father that only "used her for gain".  She said that many times during our marriage.  Funny thing is, her mom said this to her two months ago and that is what sent my wife over the edge and booted her out.  She claims it was when she told our son he was lazy, but I think it was the other thing.  I think her mom figured out after me being there with her there a few times that things weren't as they were portrayed.  I think my wife is shocked that I have done as well on my own and haven't fallen flat on my face.  I believe she doesn't know how to deal with this dynamic very well because then she can't necessarily be the one to hold everything together and have the one-upsmanship anymore.  There is actually someone that is "on her level" that "meets her match" so to speak.  Maybe I have answered my own question as to why she kept taking things and holding them hostage.  Maybe it wasn't as much about narcissistic control as it was having "the upper hand" in the r/s that she thought she never really had in any of her other male r/s in her life.  With her dad, he would only contact her if he needed her to do something that put her in a no-win situation (boy does that sound familiar  ).  For example, he wanted her to try and get insurance on a condemned building (you can't obviously), and when she couldn't find a company to carry it, he told her she was a worthless POS and to not contact him ever again.  Her ex (the children's sperm donor), he never worked (if he did, it would be a couple of weeks that he would either quit or get fired).  About a year before they split, he bought a truck with no job using her credit.  When they divorced, she asked him to agree to sell their house and sign off on the paperwork with the real estate agent.  Even though it was part of their divorce decree that he do it, he didn't and it went into foreclosure. 

So... .take your above explanation and apply it to the tax situation... .

What answer/actions does it suggest?

She throws a fit because the control is not in her hands, but deep down, she ultimately gets over it because she sees me as not using her and doing the right thing for the both of us.  She is not used to me standing up to her either regarding the washer and dryer.

I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

Realize this is also a best guess... .especially since your T doesn't treat her.

There could be other explanations... .or multiple odd reasons all tied up together.

ff

I do realize that, but he does specialize in BPD and NPD (didn't know this until about 9 months ago and seeing him for almost two years now) which allows me to trust his professional opinion more than others... .

[123Phoebe]

Maroon... .why do you think this is true.  

Why does the pattern work the way it does?

The only answer I have is she sees me as more self sufficient, therefore gaining more respect for me, and less like the other men in her life that only used her and were a drain on her.  It also gives her less control over me (which she doesn't necessarily want but doesn't know any other way to cope) which she hates because it makes her feel out of control.

I would like to tweak this to read:

I feel more self-sufficient, I have more respect for myself.  I have more control over x y and z = my stuff, letting her take care of her stuff, which makes room for us to find and figure out what our stuff is... .and how to build on it...

Does the way I phrased it ring true?

[Grey Kitty]

Separating your finances is making things better with your wife... .even if each step apart has your wife kicking and screaming about it. Once it is done, things go smoother.

This is confusing to me.  You would think that each step apart would make her want to go back the other way.  I guess that is the hardest thing for me to get down deep right now.  I guess a disordered mind is something you can't really figure out.  And she probably doesn't realize it either.  But it does make things go smoother.

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world. Today I know two different women in very different life situations... .who have a fantastic relationship with a fantastic guy that has only been in their life for months or a year or two. I'd say that they both hope to spend the rest of their lives with this guy. Neither one has any plan to move in with the guy or invite the guy to move in with them. Probably not this decade. Or to have a joint checking account even.

In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .I think that your best bet would be to keep your finances completely separate even then. Possibly open a joint checking account to handle household bills and both contribute to it. Or maybe not even bother with that.

It would be possible have a deep trusting emotional connection and a fantastic sex life and raise kids together, without any joint finances.

... .take the steps to financially separate from your wife because everything will go better when you achieve this.

My wife and I still have a lot of joint finances, because money isn't our hot-button issue. It is a bit cleaner that we are separating. In our cases, when we went to having individual phone numbers and individual email addresses, those changes involved a lot of kicking and screaming, but ultimately felt much better to both of us... .long before we were thinking we would split.

Having room to be your own individual person makes it easier to be happy connecting with another person.

I've got another thought about how she is LOUDLY expressing your non-existence in her life on facebook and with her FOO and friends. She's doing this to get a rise out of you. She WANTS you to chase after her... .so she can reject you and push you away. It is her coping mechanism.

I see your point here.  What do you think that helps her cope with?  I wonder if this is the same coping mechanism my T said she uses when she "kicks me out".  He said that when all that she is left with is looking at herself, she can't handle it and has to reject me when she isn't strong enough to reject the unhealthy part of her and face it.

Yep, sounds like the same sort of thing your T is talking about. Have you read the lesson on BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

It isn't your job to figure out what difficult feelings she is avoiding. But the basic thing is this--if she can find a way to blame you, she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings. If you accept the blame, you help her do this. If you argue/fight with her about applying the blame to you, you help her do this. If you refuse to pick up the provocation, she may well have to find a new coping mechanism.

[MaroonLiquid]

I would like to tweak this to read:

I feel more self-sufficient, I have more respect for myself.  I have more control over x y and z = my stuff, letting her take care of her stuff, which makes room for us to find and figure out what our stuff is... .and how to build on it...

Does the way I phrased it ring true?

Yes, it certainly does.  I am actually proud of myself for "standing tall" in the face of adversity rather than falling into a puddle because my life is in a hard spot at the moment.

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world... .In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .

My first thought is it would be a frozen day in hell before two to three years would pass and I would still be sitting in the same "poopy diaper" called "limbo Land".  After sleeping on it and re-reading it, I see what you are saying to a point.  Do I love her to see her through that?  Yes, absolutely.  But I still don't think I could live apart from the person I love for 2 to three years. 

I think that your best bet would be to keep your finances completely separate even then. Possibly open a joint checking account to handle household bills and both contribute to it. Or maybe not even bother with that.

It would be possible have a deep trusting emotional connection and a fantastic sex life and raise kids together, without any joint finances.

... .take the steps to financially separate from your wife because everything will go better when you achieve this.

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

Having room to be your own individual person makes it easier to be happy connecting with another person.

I agree with this... .

Yep, sounds like the same sort of thing your T is talking about. Have you read the lesson on BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

Yeah, I've read projection, splitting and silent treatment ones more than any others... .

It isn't your job to figure out what difficult feelings she is avoiding. But the basic thing is this--if she can find a way to blame you, she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings. If you accept the blame, you help her do this. If you argue/fight with her about applying the blame to you, you help her do this. If you refuse to pick up the provocation, she may well have to find a new coping mechanism.

Yeah, and because of my FOO, I fight the urge to want to still defend myself at times and be right!     Not as much anymore.  She hates when I say, I'm sorry you feel that way and mocks me.  I know why she does it... .

[MaroonLiquid]

I would like to tweak this to read:

I feel more self-sufficient, I have more respect for myself.  I have more control over x y and z = my stuff, letting her take care of her stuff, which makes room for us to find and figure out what our stuff is... .and how to build on it...

Does the way I phrased it ring true?

Yes, it certainly does.  I am actually proud of myself for "standing tall" in the face of adversity rather than falling into a puddle because my life is in a hard spot at the moment.

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world... .In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .

My first thought is it would be a frozen day in hell before two to three years would pass and I would still be sitting in the same "poopy diaper" called "limbo Land".  After sleeping on it and re-reading it, I see what you are saying to a point.  Do I love her to see her through that?  Yes, absolutely.  But I still don't think I could live apart from the person I love for 2 to three years. 

I think that your best bet would be to keep your finances completely separate even then. Possibly open a joint checking account to handle household bills and both contribute to it. Or maybe not even bother with that.

It would be possible have a deep trusting emotional connection and a fantastic sex life and raise kids together, without any joint finances.

... .take the steps to financially separate from your wife because everything will go better when you achieve this.

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

Having room to be your own individual person makes it easier to be happy connecting with another person.

I agree with this... .

Yep, sounds like the same sort of thing your T is talking about. Have you read the lesson on BPD BEHAVIORS: Projection

Yeah, I've read projection, splitting and silent treatment ones more than any others... .

It isn't your job to figure out what difficult feelings she is avoiding. But the basic thing is this--if she can find a way to blame you, she doesn't have to deal with her own feelings. If you accept the blame, you help her do this. If you argue/fight with her about applying the blame to you, you help her do this. If you refuse to pick up the provocation, she may well have to find a new coping mechanism.

Yeah, and because of my FOO, I fight the urge to want to still defend myself at times and be right!     Not as much anymore.  She hates when I say, I'm sorry you feel that way and mocks me.  I know why she does it... .

One thing I forgot to add, is last night I deleted the app that allows me to see my wife's Facebook.  I was proud of myself.  I realized real quick how many times I checked it because I would go to the app and realized, "Oh yeah, I deleted it."  I feel better about myself. 

[Grey Kitty]

There is more than one model of a "close romantic relationship" in this world... .In your case... .if over the next three years your wife gets into therapy and makes huge progress... .and the two of you decide to move in together again... .

My first thought is it would be a frozen day in hell before two to three years would pass and I would still be sitting in the same "poopy diaper" called "limbo Land".  After sleeping on it and re-reading it, I see what you are saying to a point.  Do I love her to see her through that?  Yes, absolutely.  But I still don't think I could live apart from the person I love for 2 to three years. 

There is more than one way to look at this.

It is limbo land if you are waiting for her and hoping that she will do something different. That is putting her firmly in control of your life and feels terrible. Doing it for 2-3 years sounds horrible.

If you see the choice you are making, and are making a choice that is true to your own values, it feels 100% different. Even if the actions you take are nearly identical.

• You are very loyal to your children (including her bio-kids that you raised). Staying in their lives fits your values.



• You are also loyal to your wife. Giving her as many chances as you possibly can also fits your values. (Note... .you make no mention of her dating/seeing other guys, and you haven't even mentioned the possibility of a new relationship that I've seen.)



• You have had moments you have re-connected with your wife, and those have felt very good to you. Nurturing that connection fits your values.



• You feel very good about your ability to build a life for yourself and your kids that works for you, without depending on your wife for it. This fits your values



• Allowing your wife the room to personally succeed or fail, see the consequences of it, and perhaps choose differently is something that is hard for you... .but I think you are seeing how it is for the best as well.

When I say 2-3 years, I don't mean repeating this last week 150 times over.

I mean 150 weeks where you learn a bit more, and live a bit better each week. I mean 150 weeks where your wife has an opportunity to do better each one of those weeks, and (I hope) she learns something some of those weeks as well.

And if you don't move back in with her over those 150 weeks--they still can all be better than last week.

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

"should" is a f***ing dangerous word. Right up there with "deserve." They usually come up when you are hoping/wishing/believing that the world is different than it actually is.

And given what you have described about your wife... .even if she does make huge progress... .the last and hardest thing for her will probably be money.

Trusting somebody is not a reason to expose yourself to unnecessary risks. You trust me. You aren't going to put my name on your bank account. I have no need to have access to it. You have no need for that kind of exposure to me. You wouldn't give me a key to your front door either.

My wife knew all my passwords. I trusted her not to take advantage of this. A few months ago, I changed all my passwords to something she doesn't know. Not because she violated my trust. Not because I expect her to violate my trust. Because there was no longer any reason for her to have that kind of access.

[MaroonLiquid]

It is limbo land if you are waiting for her and hoping that she will do something different. That is putting her firmly in control of your life and feels terrible. Doing it for 2-3 years sounds horrible.

Yes, yes it does. 

If you see the choice you are making, and are making a choice that is true to your own values, it feels 100% different. Even if the actions you take are nearly identical.

• You are very loyal to your children (including her bio-kids that you raised). Staying in their lives fits your values.

I want them to know there is a man in their life that won't abandon them. 

• You are also loyal to your wife. Giving her as many chances as you possibly can also fits your values. (Note... .you make no mention of her dating/seeing other guys, and you haven't even mentioned the possibility of a new relationship that I've seen.)

I won't date as long as I'm married and she shares the same value.  If I find out she is/has or whatever, it's over.  I don't think she would as long as there isn't divorce proceedings.  During a divorce is a completely different story on both parts.

• You have had moments you have re-connected with your wife, and those have felt very good to you. Nurturing that connection fits your values.

Yes, and connecting with her and nurturing that is special to me.  I'm finding that loving her in spite of her illness is very easy.  She is a great person who is driven by ill thinking, yet she can be one of the most amazing people I have ever met who gets me and vice versa.  Regardless of BPD and mirroring, the connection between us is undeniable... .

• You feel very good about your ability to build a life for yourself and your kids that works for you, without depending on your wife for it. This fits your values

Yes, and never having lived on my own, it has been nice.  Almost like a refuge from the storm of BPD... .

• Allowing your wife the room to personally succeed or fail, see the consequences of it, and perhaps choose differently is something that is hard for you... .but I think you are seeing how it is for the best as well.

Yes, I do... .It is hard because the "husband" part of me wants to spare her of those things.  Not as enabling or making decisions for her, but because I want the best for her. 

And given what you have described about your wife... .even if she does make huge progress... .the last and hardest thing for her will probably be money.

Trusting somebody is not a reason to expose yourself to unnecessary risks. You trust me. You aren't going to put my name on your bank account. I have no need to have access to it. You have no need for that kind of exposure to me. You wouldn't give me a key to your front door either.

My wife knew all my passwords. I trusted her not to take advantage of this. A few months ago, I changed all my passwords to something she doesn't know. Not because she violated my trust. Not because I expect her to violate my trust. Because there was no longer any reason for her to have that kind of access.

I see what you are saying here, and to some extent I agree with it.  I truly think that most of her "issues" with money is because as a child, her family never had much except necessities, she has worked hard to get where she is in spite of her upbringing and screwed up FOO, and her ex husband.  I think once she works on those things, she will have a different outlook on things as a whole.  I'm not trying to sound like it would all be ok, but I understand why those money issues are there.

This weekend we are supposed to be celebrating my son's 6th birthday "as a family" (just the 8 of us).  Since we haven't spoken since Friday, I hope she doesn't let my son down.  He is really looking forward to it. 

Still plan on keeping the kids in a couple of weeks while she is out of town on business.  It just happens to be my birthday weekend which sucks.  But oh well.  Curious how she will handle both.  Going out of town is always stressful for her and on top of that missing my birthday will probably make for an even more difficult time. 

[formflier]

One thing I forgot to add, is last night I deleted the app that allows me to see my wife's Facebook.  I was proud of myself.  I realized real quick how many times I checked it because I would go to the app and realized, "Oh yeah, I deleted it."  I feel better about myself. 

   High five to Maroon!

[formflier]

I have to think on this.  My first thought is, if she is making huge progress, then we should be able to trust each other... .

This jumped out at me... .  I think this way about my wife... and... .couple days ago this thinking "ate my lunch... "  bad... .

I thought she she asked me to express my feelings about my child... .it "should" be ok to relax... let me guard down and be "honest"... and "open"

So... I wasn't using any tools... just expressing my love for kid...

She flipped out... .  she "shouldn't" have done that... but she did.  I wasn't ready... .it was a bad day.

Dealing with BPD land is about contingencies and about probability of success (based on what has been working)

IMO... .for you... .that means keep separating finances... .individual taxes.

For me... .even though I really want to express feelings to my wife... .I should still be careful and at best realize this could be another "out of nowhere" flip out. 

So... .if she asks about feelings on a bad day... .I need to keep defenses up.  ON good day... .tread carefully... .and have tools ready.

Last comment... .think more about what is... .and now what should be.  (Am I talking to you... .or me?  hmmm)

[MaroonLiquid]

   High five to Maroon!

Thanks.  A part of me does want to check, but dealing with it.

This jumped out at me... . I think this way about my wife... and... .couple days ago this thinking "ate my lunch... "  bad... .

I thought she she asked me to express my feelings about my child... .it "should" be ok to relax... let me guard down and be "honest"... and "open"

So... I wasn't using any tools... just expressing my love for kid...

She flipped out... . she "shouldn't" have done that... but she did.  I wasn't ready... .it was a bad day.

Dealing with BPD land is about contingencies and about probability of success (based on what has been working)

IMO... .for you... .that means keep separating finances... .individual taxes.

Yeah, I know.  Is is bad to wish they would wake up and say, "Geez, my thinking is really screwed up.!"  

For me... .even though I really want to express feelings to my wife... .I should still be careful and at best realize this could be another "out of nowhere" flip out.  

So... .if she asks about feelings on a bad day... .I need to keep defenses up.  ON good day... .tread carefully... .and have tools ready.

Last comment... .think more about what is... .and now what should be.  (Am I talking to you... .or me?  hmmm)

I do keep my defenses up.  :)o you think they notice that our defenses are up?  I know she sees me react to her differently.  Especially when I validate which I never understood what that was before 9 or 10 months ago.  When she walked in the other day after getting in from out of town and gave me a hug without me instigating it, it made the hard times bearable and "forgivable"... .Starting to miss her a little bit.  It gets easier with each dysreg to where I don't miss her as much if that makes sense.  One thing I have always loved is hugging and holding her... .Boy I'm sad... .

[formflier]

Yeah, I know.  Is is bad to wish they would wake up and say, "Geez, my thinking is really screwed up.!"  

So... .when are you going to go meet with your CPA and get your taxes done... .?

[MaroonLiquid]

Yeah, I know.  Is is bad to wish they would wake up and say, "Geez, my thinking is really screwed up.!"  

So... .when are you going to go meet with your CPA and get your taxes done... .?

... .yeah, in the next week... .

I am still getting the cold shoulder, business like attitude (will answer about anything that doesn't involve family) from my wife.  Last night, I texted her to let her know that I have a party invitation for our daughter from another girl on our team.  I also added that I thought the girls played well.  Her response was, "When is the party?"  I told her it was the weekend before she leaves town and also said that I had found a replacement glove for our son and she said, "Ok thanks".  I sent her a picture taken at team picture day of me and the three girls and said, "This is a really good picture of my girls and I!"  No response.  It has been a hard road to get to where I can mostly laugh this off, but no matter what, it gets old.  I have learned to let it go, but good Lord!  I just get tired of it, and I don't know how they don't.  I haven't texted this morning and won't.  It amazed me how they feel they have a right to punish for not getting their way but expect not to be held accountable for their poor behavior.  This is not really a vent as much as just talking out loud.

[Grey Kitty]

I am still getting the cold shoulder, business like attitude (will answer about anything that doesn't involve family) from my wife. ... .I sent her a picture taken at team picture day of me and the three girls and said, "This is a really good picture of my girls and I!"  No response. 

Maroon, you knew that wasn't going to go well. You knew she was giving you the cold shoulder.

Why did you think it was a good idea to send her a pic like that?

[formflier]

 

Do you just do your own taxes... and wait for her to ask... .or do you give her a heads up? 

Turning this over in my head... .

As far as Maroon sending that pic... .there needs to be some way for him to "test the waters... " and see how she is doing.

However... he shouldn't "test"... .when he is not strong and ready for a bad ... or no... .reaction...

Thoughts?

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its page limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thank you for understanding... .