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Author Topic: Having success at untangling enmeshment, but maybe becoming too detached?  (Read 504 times)
Mustbeabetterway
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« on: March 19, 2015, 06:54:21 AM »

I am feeling really good about my progress in extracting myself from enmeshment.  Recently took a short getaway trip with friends.  Husband was working.  I was truly able to relax and not worry about constantly texting/calling to check in with uBPDh.  There was really no trace of the anxiety that I have felt in the past.  What a wonderful feeling.  Yea for that.

One thing is, I feel as if I am unraveling a relationship that I have worked so hard to preserve. 

We have been together since we were very young.  It has been, and is challenging to change my role in the relationship.

I am working on interdependence instead of independence.  Loss of the unhealthy closeness means we will have to work at healthy cohesion in order to stay together. 


Thoughts?

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EaglesJuju
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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2015, 07:58:31 AM »

This is great progress.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I understand how you could feel that you are unraveling a relationship that you having been working so hard on.  I felt the same way when I started detaching from being completely enmeshed from my bf. I felt afraid that I was "giving up" or pulling away too much. It was almost foreign to me to start doing things completely for myself. Working through these feelings takes some time, but as you mentioned not having worry/anxiety does feel really good. 

You are on the right track of interdependence instead of independence.  Working on your dependency issues does not mean that you have to cut off all dependency. Having some dependency on your SO is healthy. Working together with your husband to form healthy cohesion can bring you closer together on different levels.

How is your husband reacting to this change?



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Notwendy
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 08:14:26 AM »

I worry about that too. Now that my kids are older, we have gone on some short trips together when my H was working. I'm aware of that sense of relief when I don't have the possibility of dealing with some dysregulation or feeling I need to be concerned about his moods.

I worry that my feelings of detatchment are not a good thing, however, I have a theory about them. One of the reasons we are part of the problem is our own fear of abandonment- that we have to be careful about upsetting them or they might be unhappy and this would end the relationship. However, appeasing them out of this fear isn't a healthy attachment. So, to change the way I act and behave, I have to accept the risk of my H not liking this. We are both in this r/s because our emotional attachment "matches" in a way. If I change this, I change the match. When this happens I face the possibility that my H may change too. He may grow with the change and stay, or he may not like it and seek out someone who "matches" him and feels more comfortable with. Making the comitment to stay in the r/s is committing to grow and change with him. However, I can't control his decision.

Part of being co-dependent is having control. If we do everything we can to be a caretaker, enable, and soothe them, this in a way results in them feeling comfortable with us. However, it also results in dysfunction which shows itself in rages, and our emotional distress. Many of us choose to change when the distress is enough that we are motivated to. However, the trade off for this is the risk we take.

Detachment feels very uncomfortable for us if co-dependency is what is familiar to us. I have to consider that this may be the only attachment I have ever known- having grown up with BPD mom and co-dependent dad. Co-depency feels very familiar to me, and also to my H, as his mother is co-dependent to verbally abusive dad. So my H and I really match each other well. My changing my co-dependent behavior is an unfamiliar and uncomfortable feeling for both of us.

Healthy detachment might feel uncomfortable, but it isn't the same as not loving someone. I know that what I experienced as "love" was making someone happy at all costs. For us, self care was something we saw as selfish, not necessary. I used to look at some other mom friends I have, and they would go out to a dance class one night a week, or play cards with a women's group, take trips with girlfriends, and their H's would happily watch the kids. This seemed impossible for me. My H would have pitched a fit if he had to watch the kids so I could have "fun". He wouldn't think that was fair since he had been working hard all day. However, he would also use "work" as justification for him playing golf all weekend and leaving me with the kids. This paralleled my upbringing as the main priority in my family was "keep mom happy". For my H, it was "keep dad happy".

So, in my world, having "fun" was selfish. To my friends, it was self care. Learning that I too could go out and do things felt quite awkward. H doesn't like it at all. Being detached enough to not negate my needs for his feels very detatched. However, I wonder sometimes if my sense of "detachment" is actually a healthy way to be in a r/s.

Love also means doing what is good for someone, and that may not mean always doing what makes them happy. It isn't good to enable someone, even though to a co-dependent, it feels as if we are not being loving if we don't always do what they want us to. I think we can see this better as parents. We love our kids, but if they ask for ice cream for dinner, we say "no", even though at the moment, they are pitching a fit, and are angry. We love them enough to say no to them because we know it isn't good for them to eat only ice cream for dinner. However, when it comes to our spouses, we give in to them so that they are happy for the moment, even though it may not be good for them or us in the long run. We have to feel some sort of detachment from the rages so that we can withstand them.

Detachment for us could be the beginning of the end of enmeshment. I agree that too much isn't a good thing, but I feel that since I am still learning, I am not sure of the difference between too much and healthy. One thing that I think is important is the guidance of someone else. We are both in marital T, and this helps because she can also keep tabs on things and give us feedback. In this sense, the T serves as a safety net for the marriage.



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Mustbeabetterway
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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 08:41:19 AM »

Quote from: EaglesJuju link=topic=273381.msg12592329#msg12592329 date=1426769911


How is your husband reacting to this change?

[/quote

Here is a copy of my original post for the history: 

I have been in a relationship with my s/o for over 30 years.  We have had good times and bad times.  It has been a roller coaster.  I thought if I could just do things right my s/o would be happy.  Much of the time, I felt that I was just missing something.  I didn't understand why he was so unhappy.  Consequently, I was unhappy much of the time, too. 



Finally, I googled "walking on eggshells" because that is what I felt I was doing.  I was surprised to find out that I wasn't the only one walking on eggshells.  I ordered the book and workbook.  It helped me to feel like I wasn't crazy.  Maybe there was a reason for all of the chaos in our relationship.  I have been saying for years that I would no longer put up with the awful name calling among other things.  Well finally, I left, well actually he forced me out, but this time I have stayed gone for 4 weeks now.  I am in therapy.  He is "not ready" for therapy, but says he will go to Anger Management, only if I come home first. 

I am not inclined to come home because I am finally feeling as if I can breathe.  I am hesitant to throw this relationship away, but I am afraid my reason for staying is to make him happy.  I realize I am deeply enmeshed in the relationship.

Does anyone else think they may be happier split up, but worry about their s/o?

Now to answer your question, EaglesJuju So my husband still refers to my leaving as me "abandoning" him.  My T and I discussed how i had been working on my codependent tendencies may have triggered this episode.  Of course, he regarded me pulling away as abandonment.

He still feels abandoned and has pulled away from me. I am trying to validate him.  It seems that now my blinders are off and I can see the dysfunction of our relationship.  I can no longer be the person I was.  I understand how confusing this must be for him. 

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Michelle27
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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 08:42:13 AM »

I keep wondering about this too.  My detachment from my uBPDh has left me wondering if we even have much of a relationship anymore.  Maybe it's normal and just feels so much different than the enmeshment and codependency of the earlier relationship.  Hmm... .something to think about... .
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Mustbeabetterway
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 08:55:19 AM »

NotWendy, all of what you have said is true.  I have tried in the past. Year to strenghten my friend relationships.  I need the support and give and take of friendships.  This has made me very happy.  In the past, I have not been a great friend because all of my time was invested in maintaining my r/s with my husband.

Yes, it is scary.  I am afraid of losing the r/s with husband.  We have been married for 34 years.   I think he is scared also.  He keeps saying he doesn't know me.  Wow!  Have I been that untrue to myself?

EaglesJuju, NotWendy and Michelle27.  Here is to our progress.  I appreciate your insights.

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Michelle27
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 09:06:32 AM »

When I was totally enmeshed I know I also didn't give my friendships the care and attention they deserved, and now that I am nurturing them, my life is so much richer.  I won't neglect them again.
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 09:11:24 AM »

I remember when I first met my mother in law, and she cooked every meal for her H. I just thought they were an old fashioned couple. Once I asked her to go shopping, and she said that she could not stay out too long as she had to come home to make lunch for her husband. I remember wondering why a grown man could not figure out how to make his own sandwich. Well the man could, but he'd rage about it.

Fast forward, years of marriage later, I knew that if I cooked dinner for H, the mood in the house would be much better than not cooking, which might provoke a rage. Most of the time it wasn't an issue as I had kids to feed and cooked anyway. But as the kids got older, we sometimes had activities. Still, things went better if there was dinner than if there was not. The idea that I might go out on occasion in the evenings just for me seemed impossible- and very likely to result in a rage or ST. So, I was cooking dinner out of fear of rages.

My T wanted me to attend a particular co-dependency meeting- on a weeknight. This meant not cooking dinner, and me being gone when H was home. He hates this. He may not spend time with me- he can be reading, or doing something in another room, but my not being there really upsets him. I was so afraid to go. The T would tell me "it's OK to not cook dinner that night and go to a meeting".  My H hates this. Once I came home later than usual because I was talking to someone. Of course that had to mean I was having an affair. Sometimes my H will interrogate me to see if I have "met someone" there.

My being home and cooking dinner was a security for H. Even if he didn't spend the whole time with me, my being there meant he didn't have to worry that I was out meeting someone else. My arranging my life around him was in a way enabling his dysfunction by managing his feelings for him.

Yet this meant saying "no" to so many invitations from friends that I really did lose most of the friendships I had.
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2015, 09:15:43 AM »

Michelle- I admire you taking the steps to taking care of yourself. Your accomplishments are inspiring.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2015, 07:19:38 AM »

I wonder what will become in place of the co-dependent longing I felt that seemed like love to me. However, I now identify it as what has attracted me to people who "matched " my co-dependency and more like a warning signal than attraction. I don't know if it is hormones ( post menopause)  or my own recovery from dysfunction that has resulted in not feeling this same "tug" with people for anyone. Even though I am married and faithful, I think we have all at times, felt some kind of connection with others, even if we choose not to pursue it an any way. I now look at this as some kind of danger "red flag" about a person if I feel as if I know them, even if we have just met.

For my H though, he misses that. He misses the time when I made all kinds of efforts just to get a crumb of his attention. He likes being pursued and it gives him the validation and affirmation he craves. However, doing this now just feels icky. Maybe it is the absence of this that I see as detachment. Maybe it is the loss of this that leads to people leaving one r/s to get into another one that is just as dysfunctional when it is formed on this kind of attraction.

I have been married a long time, so I had to think way back into my memory at the guys I felt an attraction to when I was dating. They had issues with drugs and alcohol in some way- some not personally but had alcoholic parents, and /or family issues that led to divorce. I can't help but wonder if they didn't match my issues in some way.

I am curious as to what kind of feelings would be in a healthy attachment. Although I worry about the lack of connection, I consider that maybe this is giving me the space to grow emotionally at the moment.
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Mustbeabetterway
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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2015, 09:59:17 AM »

Quote from: Notwendy link=topic=273381.msg12592886#msg12592886 date=[/quote

I wonder what will become in place of the co-dependent longing I felt that seemed like love to me. However, I now identify it as what has attracted me to people who "matched " my co-dependency and more like a warning signal than attraction. I don't know if it is hormones ( post menopause)  or my own recovery from dysfunction that has resulted in not feeling this same "tug" with people for anyone. Even though I am married and faithful, I think we have all at times, felt some kind of connection with others, even if we choose not to pursue it an any way. I now look at this as some kind of danger "red flag" about a person if I feel as if I know them, even if we have just met.

I got into my r/s as a 14 year old girl.  I wasn't fully developed.  Neither of us were, we both came from backgrounds that caused us to seek each other out.  Over the years each of us has struggled to be an individual, yet clinging to our codependent r/s.  I am also fighting that "codependent tug".

Notwendy, as we both become more independently whole (as opposed to needing a partner to complete us) maybe we will not attract or become attracted to those who need a caretaker.  Actually, although my husband is unhappy about the changes I have made, surprisingly, he has adjusted well.  He has taken more responsibility for his own self. 

I was always afraid of making him angry.  I have just had to make myself face the fear in order to live the life I am meant to live.

Quote from: Notwendy link=topic=273381.msg12592886#msg12592886 date=[/quote

For my H though, he misses that. He misses the time when I made all kinds of efforts just to get a crumb of his attention. He likes being pursued and it gives him the validation and affirmation he craves. However, doing this now just feels icky. Maybe it is the absence of this that I see as detachment. Maybe it is the loss of this that leads to people leaving one r/s to get into another one that is just as dysfunctional when it is formed on this kind of attraction.

People do absolutely leave one r/s and find someone else who "matches" them.  You know "You've lost that lovin' feeling whoa whoa whoa". Lol


Quote from: Notwendy link=topic=273381.msg12592886#msg12592886 date=[/quote

I have been married a long time, so I had to think way back into my memory at the guys I felt an attraction to when I was dating. They had issues with drugs and alcohol in some way- some not personally but had alcoholic parents, and /or family issues that led to divorce. I can't help but wonder if they didn't match my issues in some way.

I dated a few people before getting married and the ones I felt closest to were those with the issues you described.  Someone I felt empathetic toward.  I wasn't attracted to anyone that was really healthy.  Didn't give them a second date!

Now I see the part I have played in the dysfunction of my marriage.  I really did need to change and grow.  All of these years, I thought if he would just change everything would be great.

Quote from: Notwendy link=topic=273381.msg12592886#msg12592886 date=[/quote

I am curious as to what kind of feelings would be in a healthy attachment. Although I worry about the lack of connection, I consider that maybe this is giving me the space to grow emotionally at the moment.

This growing is hard work, isn't it?  But, I see that it is a blessing to be at this point.

I applaud your efforts.  I enjoy reading your posts.  Thanks for sharing!
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ColdEthyl
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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2015, 01:07:28 PM »

@NotWendy That's one of the things I fear. I fear that if I go to T, and get better, I won't even want to be in this r/s anymore. If that's ends up being the case... .I would be the one breaking his heart. Of course, I'm still looking at all of this through my co-dependent glasses so my view and terror are still based on my need to be with someone.

It's not going to stop me. I am going and I do want to be healthy for ME. But, it's in the back of my mind.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2015, 02:59:50 PM »

Years ago, I faced the choice of breaking away from the enmeshment of my family and risking the loss of my father's approval. I didn't think I could continue in the role of subjugating who I was to keep my mother happy. It involved some serious boundaries for me, including getting my children enmeshed with her as well. I hoped that my father would understand, however he became angry with me and remained angry until he died.

No, it isn't the same love as a romantic relationship, but, if anyone has broken my heart, he is at the top of the list. I wanted my father to love me. I would have done anything to make that happen, but I felt it came down to choosing between this and my sanity.

After this happened, I felt I also had to choose my sanity in the marriage.

I feel as if my father did love me, but was so involved in his issues, he may not have felt he could make a choice.
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ColdEthyl
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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2015, 03:14:38 PM »

Years ago, I faced the choice of breaking away from the enmeshment of my family and risking the loss of my father's approval. I didn't think I could continue in the role of subjugating who I was to keep my mother happy. It involved some serious boundaries for me, including getting my children enmeshed with her as well. I hoped that my father would understand, however he became angry with me and remained angry until he died.

No, it isn't the same love as a romantic relationship, but, if anyone has broken my heart, he is at the top of the list. I wanted my father to love me. I would have done anything to make that happen, but I felt it came down to choosing between this and my sanity.

After this happened, I felt I also had to choose my sanity in the marriage.

I feel as if my father did love me, but was so involved in his issues, he may not have felt he could make a choice.

I am so sorry

I had to make a similar choice by doing NC with my mother. She was a poisonous and vile woman. I do not think she was BPD, but there was some sort of PD going on there. To make a very long story my mother was married to a pedophile and when she left him, I took her in under the condition she would not return. If she returned, I was done with her.

A year later, she went back. She emailed me how wonderful he was and how much he changed. I told her then that was the end of it. Her reply to that was to call CPS on me and tell them my ex husband was molesting the children. He wasn't... .and we went through hell over that. A year after that, she tried to call me and I wouldn't answer her calls, and a week later CPS was back at my door with the same complaint. The only thing is since the last time, my ex husband's children were not living with us anymore and hadn't been. The only person who wouldn't know that would have been her.

This was 12 years ago. She tried to contact me again a few years ago. She found me on Facebook. She was remarried to someone else and now HE was prince charming. Again, I told her I have nothing left for her. She raged on me that she has step-children know who love her like a child should love their parent. I told her I was happy for her that she found children to love her the way she felt she deserved.

... .hmm come to think of it... .maybe she was BPD. Well... .she was something. I'll give her that.

It was a hard thing for me to do. I went through years after trying to figure out why my mother didn't love me. Finally, a lighting bolt hit my brain and I realized it wasn't a broken thing in ME, but a broken thing in HER.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2015, 03:33:00 PM »

I know that must have been hard to do, to have to walk away from your mother. She sounds like quite a sad person.

I also fear losing my marriage. It is the reason I was so codependent. However, the fear led me to being co-dependent and that was my being part of the dysfunction in the marriage and it wasn't good for my H to be enabling the behaviors that aren't healthy.

I think we grow in stages. I had already been working on my FOO issues and saw how they fit with my marital issues. However, after my dad died, I knew I didn't want to be co dependent in my marriage. I don't recall what happened at the time, because I grieved for a long time. However it ended up with my H raging and then agreeing to marital T. That was what gave me hope. It is slow, but there is progress, for both of us. He had refused to do any T before then. I think his decision to agree to it was in part, because he must have sensed some shift in me.
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Olinda
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2015, 04:47:35 PM »

Subscribing to this thread, am also working on detaching. How can one know what is healthy and what is too detached?
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2015, 05:44:59 AM »

I think it's a process, and so, I don't know if you can know if it is healthy detachment or too detached. I think the process involves being aware of our own feelings whatever they are.

When we started marital T, I felt detached, but we were not detached. I was angry, resentful, numb, and a lot of things, and focused in my H as the cause. The T had me working on co-dependency issues. It's been a long ( continuing) process and part of it is being aware of what are my feelings, what are his, my issues, his issues, but since the focus is on me, any changes in me impact how I relate to others.

Recently, I began noticing that when I spoke to my mother, I didn't feel as triggered as I used to. Soon after that, I realized that was happening with my H. However, to get to that point, I had to let go of a lot of resentment, anger and other feelings. That isn't a finished project either, but enough of it, so that I am not as reactive to them as I was.  I think that is what healthy detachment it.

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Mustbeabetterway
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2015, 09:43:37 AM »

Subscribing to this thread, am also working on detaching. How can one know what is healthy and what is too detached?

Hi Olinda,  I think if your detachment is healthy, you will be able to be supportive and have a reasonable degree of connectedness.  It feels comfortable instead of feeling anxious.  At first it does not feel comfortable because we are fighting an ingrained pattern (or I have been). 

If a person is too detached, you will not be able to connect in healthy ways,
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