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Author Topic: Ultimatum?  (Read 630 times)
GeorgeTheDifferent

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« on: March 19, 2015, 12:24:38 PM »

Hi All,

This is my first post here.

After 17 years of stormy marriage and a year after I decided to leave, I discovered my wife suffers from BPD or something very similar (no official diagnosis as yet).

I still didn't file for divorce as I was worried about her reaction. Especially because we have 4 children.

Additional challenge comes from that she lives in different country now, with kids. I was forced to seek better paid job abroad 3.5 years ago (debts... .).

Two weeks ago when I was still analyzing what could go wrong, I started looking for mental health issues and found BPD, which fits perfectly.

Armed with a blend of shock and hope, I had skype session with my wife. Told her as softly as I could that we could get back our life and be truly happy.

As a response I heard she sees exactly those symptoms in me and started explaining how I'm not able to love, never was and her only doctor is God.

As I've spent last two weeks reading 20 hrs a day about BPD, it looks like the only way to get the other half to seek help is giving them ultimatum.

What are your experiences on that?

There are more details of course but I wanted at least to introduce myself for now. Every support and sharing your experience appreciated.

Still shocked, confused and worried

George

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« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2015, 01:20:19 PM »

So sorry you are here George.  Please read the lessons on the right side of the page.  You will meet many here who deal with this daily and give great advice.  Please focus on yourself and your children and good luck to whatever you decide.  Understand though, most of the time ultimatums rarely work and trigger the very things pwBPD struggle with the most.  I'm not saying it won't work, but only you know you're wife.  If you do issue the ultimatum, don't use it to manipulate and only use it if you are willing to follow through fully with a divorce. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2015, 03:39:03 PM »

Hi George, welcome to the board.

It is shocking to discover a loved one has BPD. Shocking, and then some relief to finally have an explanation for the behavior we are dealing with. Although the next logical step for us is "now we know, take action"- taking action before really understanding it well may not be the best way to proceed.

I grew up for years with a mom with BPD and when I finally got it, I jumped into action and in restrospect that also made some things worse. I did not understand the nuances of the issue, how projection and denial work, or the reasons people are in r/s with them- and this includes extended families. I was ready to start with boundaries on mom. I assumed surely dad would validate me. This didn't happen. Dad bonded closer to mom and they were both angry with me.

I didn't recognize BPD traits in my H as he is very different that mom and so I recognized this much later, having learned from my mistakes and also positive steps with my parents. By this time, I also saw the connection- where my co-dependency fit my H's issues, and how interelated they were, how my childhood and FOO matched up with my H's. I had learned enough about r/s to know that if I am the one that wants change, then that has to start with me getting therapy and help to change. Issuing an ultimatum to my H would not achieve what I wanted it to, positive change in my marriage- because that also required work on me. Furthermore, I could only control what I did,  not anyone else. When I finally had healthier boundaries, I was able to keep them, in more subtler ways than ultimatums.

You are in a unique position as you are away from your family. You can use this time for personal growth and to educate yourself further about BPD before you decide to take action.



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« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2015, 04:28:27 PM »

imo- ultimatums usually blow up in your face when dealing with a pwBPD. do more research on this before making any final decision-this affects not just you and her but also the kids.

stay safe
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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2015, 08:20:30 PM »

Thank you so much.

Indeed, after reading and watching what I could find here (not finished yet) I can see it won't be that easy... .Looks like 'take action' means something very different from what I thought only yesterday.

So far, we're both reading "Get Me Out of Here" as this was the first book I ordered for both of us. I did put very supportive dedication, encouraging her to take a journey inside her soul (it's difficult for me to translate it into English). Now I can see how she's been desperately fighting for someone to love her... .

The second book (for me) is on its way: Stop Walking On Eggshells.

P.S. I couldn't find: what "r/s" stands for?

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tjay933
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« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2015, 08:27:40 PM »

r/s = relationship 
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2015, 11:14:58 PM »

Hi George,

As a response I heard she sees exactly those symptoms in me and started explaining how I'm not able to love, never was and her only doctor is God.

As I've spent last two weeks reading 20 hrs a day about BPD, it looks like the only way to get the other half to seek help is giving them ultimatum.

She sounds like my uBPDh!  But as you can see from the Lessons ----------> it is very common for pwBPDs to project their feelings/ character onto those around them.  So it is pretty useless to tell them "I see x and y and z in you". 

Also, giving them the ultimatum does not work.  They have to seek treatment because they feel that something is wrong/ off with them, not because they're forced to.  When you read more about pwBPDs at treatment, you will see that many give their partners a terrible time, especially when the therapist is not aware of BPD tendencies and sides with the pwBPD.

It's a long road, but it you learn the Lessons your relationship with the pwBPD will be easier.  It will never be completely "normal", but you will cope with it easier.

Best of luck!
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2015, 11:23:39 PM »

 

I'm glad you have found us!  bpdfamily has helped me improve my r/s and my life.

Ultimatums may... .or may not be the right tool to use.  I hope you will focus on learning as much as you can for a while and base your actions on what you have learned.

I would encourage you to read about the differences in boundary enforcement and ultimatums... .and post some of your thoughts here about what you find.

FF
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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2015, 05:08:32 AM »

It will never be completely "normal", but you will cope with it easier.

Ohh, are u trying to tell me that I will rather "cope" than spend my life in mature, fulfilling  r/s?

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« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2015, 06:05:54 AM »

Good question, and one that you can make a decision over, and that decision isn't an easy one. On one hand, you have a situation that is upsetting to you, and a spouse who possibly has, by all accounts, a lifelong condition that impacts how she relates to people. On the other hand, you have 17 years of marriage and four children.

Even if you decide to leave, as it appears you have considered, you will not be able to completely separate from your wife as she is the mother of your children. You will need to relate to her at the very least about them. Also, a divorce itself involves considerable time, energy, money, as well as having to communicate with your wife. So, whatever you decide- staying or leaving, learning about how to relate to pw BPD could be helpful to you.

Then, there is you. You are 1/2 of this relationship. You say that you want a mature and fulfilling r/s, but what does this involve? This was a key question for me. I read volumes of books on marriage, and they were quite enlightening. One issue was how we choose our partner, and how our family of origin influences that. Another theory is that unless we deal with our personal issues in a marriage, leaving isn't always a solution as we may attract and be attracted to someone who brings out those similar issues in us. The idea is that 'wherever we go, there we are".

This doesn't mean that we have to remain trapped in a toxic or dangerous situation, or that people can not consciously choose to leave one. To me it meant that I needed to work on myself, that perhaps a major disruption to our family life is not the immediate answer, and not a quick fix no matter what. It meant considering the ways that I was adding to the family dysfunction by enabling or being co-dependent. I can not control anyone else's maturity, but I can work on gaining mine.

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« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2015, 07:17:00 AM »

 

Another way of describing what Notwendy had to say... .is to imagine that a r/s is a street with a do not cross line in the middle.  You each own half the street. 

It is very frustrating to be married to someone that so obviously... .because of BPD or other issues... .has so many things messed up on "their" side of the street.

Even more frustrating to understand that your power to affect their side of the street is limited.  Many times they will "project" their side of the street onto you.

So... .you have to be smart about where you "spend" your energy.  You want to maximize results for you and the r/s... .and minimize the amount of frustrations... .or "triggers".

So... .guess where you should spend your time and energy.

A.  Their side of the street?

B.  Your side of the street?

Betcha didn't know there was going to be a multiple choice test today?   Smiling (click to insert in post) Smiling (click to insert in post)

I'm interested in your answer... .and your reasoning behind it.

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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2015, 07:43:56 AM »

Yeah, I get the point... .I can't control other people, only myself. And I'm aware my own therapy would be very useful (I'm Adult Child, aware of that since around 2010). I can't afford it now so I'm reading and analyzing my reactions myself.

There is however sense of emergency because of the kids. She is "high functioning", has a job, friends etc.

BUT.

There are issues with children, especially younger son (8). He displays unusual symptoms like sometimes unreasonable fear, sleeps with mom always, has been rejected by his classmates... .

She admits she "has to" hit him sometimes, and I witnessed it can be in his head

I've read a few "success stories" and whenever it was real success (pwBPD got into progressing treatment), that was only because of ultimatum.

We attend family therapy once a month -- as I can't fly home more often. There have been two sessions so far. I'm thinking of presenting her a choice during the next session. Therapist is already aware of my 'diagnosis'. It's 5 weeks to go so I've still got some time to make a decision.

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« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2015, 08:14:28 AM »

 

Good... .you have 5 weeks to think this through.

I'm glad I found you... .I have 8 children.  Lots of family drama this summer involving a family therapist... .department of social services... .etc etc etc.

Was horrible at the time... .but my family is much better off for it now.

Yes... .it involved my wife hitting them... .that was tough to be part of... :'( :'(

Also tougher to face the issues on "my side" of the street that were affecting the family.  While I am not responsible for my wife's choices... .a lot of my choices had a big negative impact on her and the entire family.  It would be true to say I contributed to the problem.

"measuring" who contributed more to the problem... .who is more at fault... .is not a road you want to go down.

So... .I'll challenge you to clearly answer the multiple choice question I presented earlier!   

 

I'm glad we found each other... .I'm glad you found BPD family.  I honestly believe that we can help you make decisions that will positively impact your family. 

I understand the pain you are going through... .all too well.

FF
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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2015, 08:31:12 AM »

So... .guess where you should spend your time and energy.

A.  Their side of the street?

B.  Your side of the street?

Yeah, this is bloody frustrating. With "do not cross" line I simply have no choice: any attempt to change her side would be pure waste of energy. So the answer, however hard to swallow, is B.

I thank God for letting people to invent Internet and that you, All The Good People, are there... .

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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2015, 09:35:37 AM »

formflier

love that analogy. will keep in my mind as i physically live on a street that is one side one city with their city rules and the other is a different city with their different rules. the two cities are always fighting between themselves as to what should or shouldn't be allowed for signs etc on each others sides. so you drive down the street and see brothels on one side and the opposite on the other. your analogy really hits home. even when it comes to paving, one side gets paved and the other doesn't. one side gets two lanes and the other doesn't.
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2015, 12:36:22 PM »

Hey George:

Ultimatums?

I can only speak from my own experience with my wife and some others in my life but I’ve never found ultimatums to be of any success. Actually, it’s been my experience that they work in a really negative way.

Let me ask you something, what is your reaction to an ultimatum? I can tell you mine and the reasoning behind it (first of all you should understand I’m a tolerant person and patient under some of the most severe situations.) If someone puts me to an ultimatum I will automatically accept the ‘or else’ option of the ultimatum. If a person is so willing to throw out the negative choice and means it as an option, then I really believe the issue isn’t worth bending too because that option is given far too easily without the concern it should be given. All too often an ultimatum is an empty threat and made without a person meaning what they’ve actually said. If they do mean it; then so be it. Ultimately it’s the thought and direction that’s in their mind anyway and will only fester there. If they meant the ultimatum it’s probably already festered there for some time and it’s taken this situation for them to ‘come out with it.’

Ultimatums are coercive and powerfully negative. It’s been my experience and what I guide myself by in interactions with others to realize that ‘positives beget positives’ and negatives ultimately can only result in negative situations or escalations of them. It’s not always easy to approach situation from a positive standpoint but it is possible if you choose to engage.

When I realized and managed to work myself into the right situation (for her) to address my suspicions of my wife’s illness with her she reacted with a recognition and a real understanding that it might be right. Had I forced her to an ultimatum to get a psychologist’s examination and diagnosis I can tell you right now she definitely wouldn’t have – even without a coercive ultimatum. I did fast track her an appointment through a friend (that was miraculous in my area of restricted opportunities and huge wait lists) and offered it to her to make an appointment. She did! She also broke the first two appointments and upon being threatened that if she didn’t attend the third she would not have another chance; she took it. The difference being it wasn't my ultimatum.

I did none of this except to open the door to the possibility – she had to do the rest. I did support her along the way positively even with the set backs and cancellations, but never once went near a negative judgment for not having the courage to step up to it after her fifty years of really severe problems dealing with this. I validated and understood her fears and fear of rejection of the judgements. I still encouraged her though and told her she had my full support regardless of a diagnosis.

She firstly had to find her own courage to open that door and because she did it herself she was so more willing to accept what I already knew and that was an affirmative diagnosis.  It was also the best thing that could have happened because it opened the possibilities for both of us to learn and put into practice entire new ways of communicating and living together that have been extremely positive in their results.

Patience, support, help, empathy to the situation,validation and a determined path to assist her in positive ways to accomplish a diagnosis is the best path I think to success. Maybe because that was the path I took, my experience, and it has been a good path that led straight from Dante’s Inferno three years ago.

It might be a really simple practice or small seemingly inconsequential wisdom, but it’s always been a real strong guidance for me: ‘positive begets positive’ my friend.

Hope this might help you in some way make the decision that’s right for you and for her.

Rick

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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2015, 12:57:45 PM »

Thank you Rick.

I'm aware of the risk of counting on only one bullet; once fired and failed, there's nothing left but nasty divorce and even more suffereng for children. On the other hand, current situation can go on forever, until we all end up in pieces.

Our eldest one (16) just told me that he's looking forward to moving out ASAP.

Could you describe in more detail the very moment she decided to seek help? What was her motivation, what was your role in that moment (apart from just being supportive)? You mentioned set backs and cancellations. How did that look like?

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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2015, 01:09:08 PM »

Hi George! I wanted to respond and share my experiences with you. I have been married to my husband for almost 17 years and we also have 4 kids.

One of the other problems with ultimatums is that there are times with the pwBPD will follow through but it will be more of going through the motions. I have run into that with my husband a lot. I can ask him to do something and he will do it but he won't take it seriously. Then, it becomes a situation where I feel like I am impossible to please. From an observers stand point, he has done what I have asked. He is in counseling and he is in a 12 step program for his addiction. He thinks he is doing great. I can see that he is making some small progress with the kids. I don't know how to tell him that I think he is still checked out and clueless. On the surface, he is trying. He is very high functioning and has a regular job. However, he will get angry and snap at the kids. He spends most of his spare time playing computer games. I can't rely on him to do basic stuff but he can remember to log into his game every day to get his daily rewards.
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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2015, 06:15:10 PM »

We just had a long chat over the phone.

I'm quickly learning the magic of validation and trying to see world through her eyes.

It won't "fix" her tomorrow's behaviour but at least it opens a door for communication!

Because she already knows I think she's ill, the topic returns in our talks. But today was the first time I felt she wouldn't fight the idea outright (though she's still fighting but not so confidently).

I think what was most important here, I confirmed I'm ready to do whatever it takes because of her. Because she's special. I'm not able (and it's still too early) to say four-letter word but today was the first time I saw the small light somewhere over there... .

Thanks for all your support and lessons!

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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2015, 06:33:00 PM »

 

Great news!   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

Even more important that validation is to avoid invalidation.  There is not an exact science to it... .but one invalidation is "worth" a bunch of validations.

Does that make sense?

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GeorgeTheDifferent

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« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2015, 12:27:57 PM »

I'd like to share my further experience and thoughts about: How to get our BPD partner into treatment.

I can say we're now closer than during our 'year off'. I could see and sense she still loves and wants me. I told her I love her. We'd have 3-hour friendly phone conversations few times a week. I'm very careful about validation/invalidation. BTW @formflier -- after your comment I fount great lecture of dr Fruzzetti about validation. I wish they teached us that in schools.

Yet despite all that, I can't see any chance she would consider going for a treatment just because of trying -- as friendly as possible -- to convince her just to try and see what T would say.

I also have carefully read first 5 pages of 'success stories'. Written explicitly or between the lines, I haven't found any that (starting a treatment) wasn't related to sort of break up threat.

Therefore I'm considering giving her a choice during our next MC sesssion.

@vortex of confusion -- thank you for sharing your experience. Yes, I'm afraid this could happen but I'm feeling like there's no other choice. At least, your SO is in kind of therapy, let's hope it finally turns out better than it looks for now. I could see from other people's experience, it may take some to 'click'.

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« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2015, 08:41:34 PM »

George I have to apologize I was away on holidays and just picked up this request.

"Could you describe in more detail the very moment she decided to seek help? What was her motivation, what was your role in that moment (apart from just being supportive)? You mentioned setbacks and cancellations. How did that look like?"

This isn't going to be easy to read but it has to be understood as the arresting officer said to justify his need "Sometimes it's necessary for someone to hit the bottom so they can see they need to start to climb out."

This is hard. It's been three years and it took a long time to put it in the past so it's difficult to go back.

My wife had a long term relationship with a Supervisor she sat three feet from at her workplace. Hold back a bit on bitter judgement. There's always so many more complications to something like that than we can imagine with automatic reactions of disgust. I don't condone nor ever will condone it.

The relationship ended (I wasn't aware of any of this) When it ended he rode her out of her job and moved on with his life. She freaked. I've never quite experienced anything with her that extreme. She was totally psychotic. Hundreds of the nastiest emails and phone calls you can imagine. (I have no sensitity toward the guy believe me.) They were really bad though.

She’d been warned by the police and got worse. Second time the police came and arrested her. That’s when I became aware of what had happened and what was going on. She was released and warned. She got even worse. Lost her new job when the police went to her business to access her computer and the police were here two hours later arrested and charged her. She was in jail four days before her hearing. Arm and leg shackles had a good affect at her realizing the repercussions of her actions.

Cut to the chase you couldn’t be in a worse situation. Waiting for her court case and pending charges, marriage destroyed, her own accountability at destroying her life (again) in another relationship. She couldn’t have been worse. The just off the wall and inappropriate things she was saying and doing was what alerted me to the realization she was borderline. I always knew she had a severe problem but it wasn’t until then that it all came together with the “I hate you – it was all your fault – don’t leave me.

Why didn’t I leave? I did for a bit, but stayed in the basement apartment we have. I couldn’t leave her in the condition she was in. There was no one for her and she was totally unable to cope with the anger and psychotic actions. Her family totally deserted her because of what she'd done She had no one. Fact is when you recognize it's a mental illness and the person is totally out of it do you actually desert a person who's worse fear in the world is that desertion? Bottom-line I wouldn't leave anyone alone in that state - I'd be there for them, would I leave my own wife alone to cope through this when she couldn't? Do I leave when I know she will make it worse for herself and everyone if I do?

Anyway I knew what she had now. I started to learn and pulled two diagnostic tests off the internet – a real simple one and a more detailed one. I waited until the perfect moment to work her into a calm state and sat with her and asked her all the questions about her past and how she felt about them. I really had to work into it in a sympathetic way and really carefully waiting for the perfect emotional moment. I made it about her and concern for her. Nothing about us or me. I first told her that none of this had anything to do with her affair or us. Just her past. I used the questions and categories to work questions relating to them specifically in ways they would related to her past. She opened up honestly about experiences in her past.

She totally affirmed positive feelings in seven out the categories. When I was done I showed her the results. She read it a bit and said “Oh my god it’s like they wrote this about me.”

I told her if that’s what she thinks than maybe she should go talk to an expert on it. She always taken therapy on and off for ADHD. WRONG but she wasn’t totally adverse to therapy. She didn’t really have any idea of the stigma or extent of what BPD meant either. I told her I was able to arrange a fast-track to the only one here that could do the testing even though it’s beyond our benefit’s policy.

I left it up to her but told her they’re expecting her call and it could take a year if she doesn’t do it and left her to the rest. She called twice and made appointments and cancelled. (I'm not that bad, I don't need this, to I wasn't feeling good today.)  My friend who fast-tracked it told me that if she cancelled the third appointment they wouldn’t accept her in the future.

I did interfere in it enough to tell her that. I also left it up to her to make the choice. She chose to go. She asked me to go with her, but once we got in and she began to talk she was really having difficulty having to go over the entire affair thing and stuff in front of me AGAIN so I excused myself because I wanted her to be able to speak freely. In the past I know she didn't tell therapist the truths about things to seek validation but this time was different. She was honest (from her perspective) She was diagnosed immediately.

She came out accepting DBT therapy with a therapist she really likes. She believed she had BPD but she was “really mild.” Hey whatever works! It isn’t about beating her to death with remorse or guilt or insecurity. It’s about building a path of trust and support moving forward so hey, mild is better than denial.

She done her thing in therapy for a couple of years now. She doesn't do the homework or ever read about it or learn more on her own. She has made changes though and is more mindful when she gets angry and is able to control it more quickly, bring down the level more quickly, realize she doing it. Sometimes I have to say I’ll have to talk to you or listen to you later and walk away, but most times she can stop and come back now and apologize without it spinning totally out of control.

But the most important thing was me tackling the learning to change myself. To learn to understand the illness, how it affects her (that difficult to know) and to build an empathy for her illness. I had to decide about the future. Am I staying to stay in a dysregulated relationship like I had for nine years? NO. I’m either going to set my sights on building and molding a good relationship and stayed focused on that or I can’t and won’t do it. I had to take a specific day and actually tell myself and practice learning that ”This is a new day and the past is behind me.” “Move forward in a different direction and focus on making that better” It all sounds quick and easy but that’s a challenge to put so much behind you well. It is possible if you chose to and can get over the ego and dismiss the hurt. Determination is a powerful thing when it’s in line with a vision and a plan to do that. Even the smallest progresses can give hope if you choose to find it.

I’ve learned so much and it’s been a life-changing experience. The path is still going forward and I stay focused on ensuring it goes in the right direction. One thing for certain George, is there can be success stories. But hey, there are no guarantees on the futures, only what you can stay focused on and manage well. No more roller coasters but there are still moments of challenges and opportunities to do more.

Again sorry this took so long to get back.

Rick  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2015, 07:58:42 PM »

Thank you so much Rick!

I haven't been replying digesting what you've said... .It had to be so hard for you. Illness or not -- you're still human being with your own feelings and I can imagine it must have been very hard for you to overcome resentment and give your wife helping hand.

And it's still a bit of sadness when I realize what it means to 'hit the bottom'. To see shackles on one's hands... .

For my W I rather expect -- if not my ultimatum -- it may be financial one. I know she can't control her spending. And a day will come bailiff will knock on the door. This might be her second chance to see something's definitely not right.

Besides, I just watched 'The Railway Man'. Incredible (true!) story. And how his wife stood by him despite his demons chasing him and making their lives so difficult... .That made me think again about my ultimatum idea. I can see, despite my W calling me her enemy outright, whenever I'm willing to talk to her and am positive towards her, it looks like a rain in a desert -- she literally blossoms. How could I take it from her?

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« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2015, 07:26:25 AM »

Hey George:

Yes, I know it was long.

It's amazing how resentment can turn into forgiveness given more thought and (although it isn't condonable or actually my doing) we all have our parts to play in the dance. That's a big thing to recognize given the situation and the first thing I recognized and stood up to when considering it.

I know the spending problem only too well and just how devastating and frustrating that can be. That's my wife's biggest negative consequence of her illness. Well one of them anyway.

I haven't seen a lot of experiences here on that issue or how it's affected others, it's so tough to bring under a control when an adult has free access to credit, especially based on her spouse's income and no knowledge of the spouse is required.

I'll real in the aftermath of that for life, she is more mindful and better at containing herself but that's only been the last year and that's after years of detrimental effects.

I feel for you on that one because taking control is so far from your control. Is it anywhere near being under any control?
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« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2015, 06:25:32 AM »

Financially, it's -- I'd say -- interesting now.

A year ago, when I decided to break up with her, she demanded me to leave a house to her. I wanted separate property regime (not sure how to informally call it in English) so she called a lawyer and they prepared all the documents. Two weeks later we signed them off, which means:

1) the house belongs to her 100% but I am obliged to keep paying off the mortgage (100%) and all other loans we took

2) we have separate property regime (I had that gut feeling I need that)

3) I pay officially put on paper monthly maintenance towards our children

P. 1) looks funny but it was all my remorse because of leaving her... .

Anyway, I'm living in rented room now, in old, stinking molding house in suburbs of London, sending 70% of my pay to my home country towards maintenance, mortgage and cash loans. Can't even afford a bus so I cycle to work all year long Smiling (click to insert in post) Never eat out, my only luxury is Starbucks once a month. But I started building small savings which makes me more happy than 3000-sqf house would right now.

Even more interesting, I thought I don't rescue her anymore but that is not true! I just realized, a few weeks ago (but before I discovered BPD) our oldest son desperately wanted airgun to spend weekends in the woods with his friends. She promised it to him and was ready to take a loan for it (!). I offered her I have some cash -- don't take another loan. So my savings went for my son's airgun.

It's only after your post I realized for last 17 years I kept changing jobs, taking out loans and now I was rescuing her... .

Yeah, time to let her take a consequence of that... .Maybe better this than leaving kids without any hope for the whole family and some sanity.

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« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2015, 07:09:04 PM »

I've just made a discovery... .I am codependent. And have been for more than 20, 25... .can it be 44 years?

SUDDENLY THE PUZZLE I WAS TRYING TO SOLVE FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS FIT!

- My most important friendship of nearly 30 years -- with pwNPD

- My marriage with pwBPD

- My (very satisfying) 3-year affair with pwDPD

Actually I started to set the boundaries, well -- about 10 years ago. But they were unhealthy and each and every one has been followed by a huge remorse.

My whole life is upside down now. But I can see more light at the end of a tunnel at the same time!

    :'( 

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« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2015, 08:52:51 PM »

 How did you come to believe this?

You could also be a rescuer... .or "fixer".

Good on your for taking a look at your side of things... .we can help you sort that out as well.

FF
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« Reply #27 on: April 08, 2015, 09:47:56 PM »

What is the difference between codependent, rescuer and fixer?

I'm analyzing my relationships with friends, women and co-workers now and it all fits perfectly when I use my codependency as missing X-factor.

Also, I'm half way through Steve Jobs biography (NPD) which helped me to just diagnose a friend of mine, and he being NPD too explains everything what happened between us for entire period of nearly 30 years... .

This is amazing how everything fits now.

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« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2015, 10:07:20 PM »

What makes me laugh now my BPD wife often mentioned to me about how narcissistic my friend is Smiling (click to insert in post) and how I always refused to acknowledge this  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2015, 11:07:08 PM »

George:

There is a slight nuance between a codependent person and a fixer.

Nutshell: Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement." meaning you'll do whatever to validate them and just go along with whatever it takes to try and make them 'happy'

A 'fixer' is more like a person who listens to another person's situation and thinks to themselves " Well hey, then I'm the right person for you because I'm not like any of those other guys and I know I can help you and be there for you", not really knowing what the true story is or what that may take to accomplish because perhaps you underestimated the extremity of what the other person was saying and probably took it for face value when in all actuality they weren't able to face their own values honestly or openly.

Many nons are fixers, rescuers and well-meaning, good or intentionally good people who try to use their own charismatic ability to bring about change in others through the power of influence, persuasion, example, experience or simply believing they are the ones who can be a better partner in another person's experiences or life.

Given a normal, balanced, healthy situation this would be a blessing to a person who has had bad experiences with poor partners, but given a situation of a person with BPD this is just too good to be true to them for a short while anyway, and you know what they say about things that are just too good to be true... .

Fact is, for a lot of circumstances a 'fixer' shouldn't go into a relationship expecting because they are a good person who can support,love, respect and be emotionally open to a partner and value a partner who's had bad experiences (like with men in the past) thinking they might be appreciated for it because they might just be considered or labelled: codependent.

There is a really fine line between codependent and fixer and it comes down to not accepting what your morals or values can not accommodate. If you do and compromise - your codependent. It is alright to be a fixer though, as long as it's gauged by ONLY YOUR opinion and standards?

Did that sound bitter? Or did it just sound like reality in a really crazy world where everyone seems to be hurt and bandaged. There's a really narrow line about what should be expected from a person and for a partner with respect to compassion and giving and what it translate to when it comes out the other side of the thrashing machine for evaluation.

The narrow line is defined by whether you will accept things that are not within your moral or ethical range of values just to please another, (radical acceptance put outside the equation for BPD sufferers)- isn't it?

I guess a person who supports a partner with BPD is subject sometimes to the same stigmas that the victim is and codependency can be construed or misconstrued as a personality fault as a result - I mean hey why else would your put up with or stay with it right?.

Welcome to the chaotic world of BPD and defining what it represents. Real question, and the only one of real value is; what does the difference between codependence and a fixer mean to you?

Honestly George - darn good question - what is the line between going into a relationship in good faith and being a CODEPENDENT or a fixer when it comes to supporting a person with special needs?
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