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vortex of confusion
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« on: March 20, 2015, 09:47:31 PM »

I have been very frustrated lately. I have been trying to use the tools and keep myself in check.

Tonight, I feel like I have reached a point of being angry, frustrated, and fed up. My husband has been playing his computer games for most of the evening. He came over by me for something and had an air about him (not sure how to describe it) so I gave him a dirty look. Not long after, he gets off the computer and goes into defensive mode and tells me that he is off the computer for the night. We stepped outside and he asked what was wrong. I told him that I am upset and it has been festering for a while.

I told him that I was fed up. He interrupted me and said, "What do you want me to do? Move out?" I wasn't sure how to respond and tried to finish my thought. He interrupted and yelled at me and told me I wasn't listening to him.

I have tried to tell him my concerns for a couple of weeks now. Our roof was leaking into the living room and he was non-chalant about the whole thing like he didn't care. He wouldn't get in the attic and he wouldn't help me get in the attic. It takes two people to get up there because it is kind of a funky set up. I had to call on my dad for help because I know enough to know that water leaking in the ceiling can create all kinds of havoc. I have a new roof now thanks to my dad. Clean up still needs to be done and he hasn't done anything to help. I have picked up some stuff. Our old out of date antenna was taken down and he keeps talking about taking it apart and moving it out of the front yard. It still hasn't happened and now that it is supposed to rain heavy for the next day or two, it probably won't happen until he is back at work and I do it myself.

When he was yelling at me about being fed up, he said, "To me, fed up means that you are done." I told him that this is why I don't feel comfortable sharing with him. He gets mad and upset. It really aggravates me that a day or two ago we had a conversation about wanting to stay together and keep things peaceful for the kids. It seems like when I try to have peaceful discussions about every day type stuff, he goes from zero to weird. To top it off, he still seems to be okay with discussing the idea of me having a lover. He says that he will stay married to me forever and remain celibate if he has to. . . Ugh, I don't know what to think some days.

I tried to tell him tonight that him not taking care of the cars gives me anxiety. He claimed to not know that. He has been around my family long enough to know that car maintenance is taken very, very seriously.

Going to stop here. Needed to vent somewhere so I don't say or do anything that adds fuel to the fires.
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This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

Loosestrife
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« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2015, 04:09:21 AM »

Hi, sorry you are having a rough time. We spend so much time

Listening to BPD 's, it's hard when they won't listen to us over the smallest of things.

Can you take sometime out and write him a note to read explaining how you feel? Or

perhaps suggest couples counselling if he won't acknowlege your feelings at all when there is just the two of you there.

My BPD partner just walks out whenever I ask anything that is deemed to be questioning their actions - it's a very difficult situation to manage. 
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Cole
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« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2015, 07:53:04 AM »

Vent away, VOC. Many of us share the same experiences. If I ask my BPDw to do anything around the house it will not get done.

Here is my bizarre solution. If I ask her to do X she will not do it. But if I put it on my to-do list on the wipe off board in my office, she offers to do it for me and then does. I make a big deal of how much help that was to me and she offers to do the next thing on the list.  

I would love to say I planned it this way. But the truth is that I stumbled upon this solution and have absolutely no idea why it works.  

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« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2015, 08:24:28 AM »

A woman I know once told me the easiest way to get a man to do something is to try to do it yourself, and do it badly Laugh out loud (click to insert in post). I think pwBPD  feel as if any issue we have with them, no matter how small, is a total attack on them, we don't want them. Does he get angry if you get help from someone else like your dad? Mine did, if I couldn't lift something and I asked him to do it, he would hem and haw,  then if I called my brother to help, ex would feel I was treating him like he was worthless. Like if I couldn't move furniture or take the a/c out of the window. It's very frustrating. I just got to the point where I didn't ask for anything important.
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« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2015, 08:46:27 AM »

It seems as if the mention of the word "you" in a direct statement to my H becomes a personal attack. Also if I ask him to do something he feels shamed " I should have thought of that". He tends to refuse. However, if I let it go, he sometimes comes back with the same suggestion as if it was his own idea.

I think that may be the reason the board works with Cole's wife. It is not a direct request from him, and so she can decide it is her idea.

My mom is similar. Any suggestion to her from people close to her feels invalidating. However, a suggestion from total strangers she may run into- a cab driver, hair dresser, she accepts. One example is when I researched retirement communities for them, and spent time and effort to visit them, and took personal interest in them because I would not want my parents in a place where they were not treated well, my mother rejected all of them. Yet when a neighbor of an aquaintance mentioned that the thought one was nice, that place became OK.

Even before I had any idea of BPD, I noticed this. Once I was at the bank and the banker told me about a new savings program they had. I replied, this sounds like a good idea, but please talk to my H directly. I knew that if I spoke to him about it, he would immediately reject it without hearing the facts. I just wanted him to understand the pros and cons and see how he felt about it.
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« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2015, 09:54:07 AM »

Any suggestion to her from people close to her feels invalidating. However, a suggestion from total strangers she may run into- a cab driver, hair dresser, she accepts.

I got a big laugh at this, because it is so true! Now I know I am not alone on this! Here is just one of countless times this has happened:

Wife read on Pinterest how to save money by making your own Febreze and asked me what I thought. I explained that it would not work because it lacked beta-cyclodextrin, the chemical that makes Febreze work, and the other ingredients were made to be washed out of fabric, not left on, and could ruin it. But she insisted that the complete stranger on Pinterest was right and that I was wrong. She tried it anyways and it cost more to reupholster the ruined couch than it would have cost to buy 100 years worth of Febreze.     

Looking for the humor? Here it is. Though I never worked in the field, I have a degree in... .organic chemistry.   

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« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2015, 10:49:08 AM »

Yes, it has happened so many times with my mother, we do chuckle about it from time to time. However, what clouds the issue is our relationship to them which makes us triggering to them. So, yes, you having a degree in organic chemistry is clouded by her emotional response to your suggestions.

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2015, 11:51:22 AM »

A woman I know once told me the easiest way to get a man to do something is to try to do it yourself, and do it badly Laugh out loud (click to insert in post).

Oh no, that doesn't work. He is the one that will do things badly. He won't do it. If I do it instead, he gets mad and says, "I was going to do that. You just didn't give me a chance." Um, how many days, weeks, or months is considered enough time? I am very laid back about stuff.

[
Excerpt
I think pwBPD  feel as if any issue we have with them, no matter how small, is a total attack on them, we don't want them.

Yep, I have seen that time and time again. The bad thing for me is that the more he behaves like this, the more I get to a point where I don't want him any more. I am tired of not being able to say that I am tired and fed up without it going from zero to 60. I wish like hell I could afford to leave.

Excerpt
Does he get angry if you get help from someone else like your dad? Mine did, if I couldn't lift something and I asked him to do it, he would hem and haw,  then if I called my brother to help, ex would feel I was treating him like he was worthless. Like if I couldn't move furniture or take the a/c out of the window. It's very frustrating. I just got to the point where I didn't ask for anything important.

He doesn't seem to get angry if I get someone else to help. I don't usually ask him for stuff because he does the whole hemmin' and hawin' thing.

With the roof issue, my dad tried to talk to him about it a couple f weeks before it started leaking. My husband got mad at my dad and said, "I don't want that SOB working on my house." My dad told him that he had a guy that could do the roof at an affordable price. The funny thing is that my husband doesn't even know the guy and has only met him a couple of times. He has heard stories about him but doesn't know him. Made me so mad that he pretty much yelled at my dad. When push came to shove, I worked things out with my dad and told my dad that I wanted the roof done. I didn't care who did it. And, I was at a point where I didn't care what my husband thought about any of it. I told him what I was doing about the roof. Didn't give him a choice. He shut up for the most part. The only problem was then he started nagging me about when the roofers were going to show up. They had to find a period of a couple of days where it wouldn't rain. I got so mad at his behavior through the whole thing.

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« Reply #8 on: March 21, 2015, 02:19:14 PM »

Hi, vortex.  I’m right there with you, and understand.  Roof. Vehicles. Appliances. Termites. Rotting windows. Yard projects. 

It’s annoying.   Sometimes I fall into resentment.   

Why are we looking for a leader of a family in a person who is not a leader in his own personal life? 

What is the solution for protecting ourselves from this? 

Is it radical acceptance that this is the way that it is?  Is it to stop resentment in its tracks and notice and be thankful for the small things they can do and then take care of the larger things on our own the way we would do anyway if we were single, since we know that they cannot or will not?  Is it to be satisfied with the the reward of personal growth that can come from not letting this get the best of us? 



 

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2015, 02:43:57 PM »

Is it radical acceptance that this is the way that it is?  Is it to stop resentment in its tracks and notice and be thankful for the small things they can do and then take care of the larger things on our own the way we would do anyway if we were single, since we know that they cannot or will not?  Is it to be satisfied with the the reward of personal growth that can come from not letting this get the best of us? 

Good questions! If I were single, I wouldn't have anybody trying to stand in my way of getting things done. When I try to reach out to other people for help, a lot of times I get the question, "Why can't your H do it?" And then I am in a position where I have to make excuses for him or be honest about him simply not being able to do things. It is very frustrating. I mentioned to somebody that I have a lot of yard clean up to do from the roofing. I was asked why he wouldn't do it. I said something about him not being reliable, which led to the person I was talking to telling me that he is being a real douche bag.

When people in real life ask me what is up in my life and I tell them, they get mad for me because he isn't doing stuff that most people consider normal. The neighbor has commented about ME mowing. I have had visitors comment on how bad our yard looks. I have had family members ask when something is going to get done. Even the kids notice stuff and make comments about it. A lot of times, I feel very judged by people.
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« Reply #10 on: March 21, 2015, 03:40:23 PM »

Does he get angry if you get help from someone else like your dad? Mine did, if I couldn't lift something and I asked him to do it, he would hem and haw, then if I called my brother to help, ex would feel I was treating him like he was worthless. Like if I couldn't move furniture or take the a/c out of the window. It's very frustrating. I just got to the point where I didn't ask for anything important.

OK, some of the problems we are talking about here are just universal with married couples.  (Did you hear this one: "If you ask a man to do something, he WILL.  There is no reason to remind him every six months!"  On the other hand, not allowing you ask or hire someone else because it hurts their pride (been there!) -- could that be part of BPD?
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« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2015, 04:03:49 PM »

Any suggestion to her from people close to her feels invalidating. However, a suggestion from total strangers she may run into- a cab driver, hair dresser, she accepts.

WOWosh, I just learned something important about myself!  My uBPDh has often gotten angry/hurt and said that I will not take his advice, ever.  But if a stranger gives the same exact advice, I will take it!  At first I felt it wasn't true and he was just being too sensitive, as usual.  But he pointed it out several times, and I wondered why I did that.  NotWendy's comment made me see that my relationship with him or opionion of him "clouds" the validity of his suggestions in my mind.  The real issue here is that I do not respect him or his opinions.  Wow ... .this is heavy.      
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« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2015, 05:14:57 PM »

Long ago I realized that for certain things, I don't respect my husband's opinion based on his actions over many years.  It was a hard one to swallow, but it's the truth.  However, there are things I do respect his opinion on and will ask him about, knowing that he will appreciate me going to him for that advice.  I do feel bad that there are times I have very little respect for him, and wonder if we can make it work long term with that going on.  It is heavy. 
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« Reply #13 on: March 21, 2015, 05:47:36 PM »

Long ago I realized that for certain things, I don't respect my husband's opinion based on his actions over many years.   I do feel bad that there are times I have very little respect for him, and wonder if we can make it work long term with that going on.  It is heavy.  

That right there is the gulf between my H and me.   Add the BPD thought processes to it, and that widens the gulf.  

When people in real life ask me what is up in my life and I tell them, they get mad for me because he isn't doing stuff that most people consider normal. The neighbor has commented about ME mowing. I have had visitors comment on how bad our yard looks. I have had family members ask when something is going to get done. Even the kids notice stuff and make comments about it. A lot of times, I feel very judged by people.

I have struggled with the feeling of being judged by others based on my H’s behavior.  

A yard and home exterior are very time consuming, labor intensive, and difficult to maintain alone if you work and have kids.  My H rarely does any yard work.  One day last summer when a grass cutting was way overdue, my H said he would mow it.  He mowed half of the front in a strange pattern and walked away, leaving the lawn mower sitting right there in the middle and never went back to finish it. Spring is here, summer will be on its heels, and while we are out working in the sweltering, suffocating humidity of this deep Southern state, he will be watching a movie in a cool, dark room and drinking a glass of sweet iced tea.  

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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2015, 06:00:14 PM »

One thing that was embarrasing was when my H wasn't around much when the kids were little. He was working, but when he wasn't, he felt he needed the break. So it was just me at the park, or wherever, with the kids. People did notice that he wasn't around.

One of the more comical and sad incidences was that he didn't attend Lamaze classes with me. I know he had to work some of the time, but he didn't show up for any of them. People thought I was a single mother and didn't want to admit it and was lying that I had a husband. Some even offered to help me when I went into labor thinking I would be all alone and not have anyone to help.

Now that the kids are older and more interested in being with their peers, he has shown some regret for missing out on a lot of the kid stuff, but whenever I asked him at the time, he would rage at me.
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« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2015, 07:07:05 PM »

"He mowed half of the front in a strange pattern and walked away, leaving the lawn mower sitting right there in the middle and never went back to finish it."

Oh, yes.  I have half finished projects all around our house.  And, of course, he will not allow me to hire anyone when he is planning on finishing them.  What makes this really bad is that our house is also my business - an assisted living home - so having undone repairs and maintenence is unacceptable by the health department.  Other nurses and visitors who come to the home often ask why I am the one doing the yard work, painting, repairs, etc. when I have enough to do taking care of my elderly residents and two teenage children.  It is very embarrassing.  Some say he is just a manipulating a.h., and others are surprised that they have known me so long and did not know I had a husband. 

Is this really a symptom of BPD? 
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2015, 07:29:07 PM »

From a similar topic back in November:

Delaying responsibilities is normal. Its delusional thinking that the impossible is possible, and no real concept of timeframe. ":)o it later/tommorrow". Then it is someone elses problem when its not done

True. True. True. 

Guess who else's problem it is?   
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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2015, 07:49:11 PM »

Looking for the humor? Here it is. Though I never worked in the field, I have a degree in... .organic chemistry.   

LOL,

I have a degree in Communications.  Also... .my 20 years in the Navy was spent flying a command and control airplane... .so... I thought about tens of thousands of people communicating... .a lot.

Yet... .she will claim I don't know what I'm talking about... .and usually reference an article she has read.  Usually... what she claims the article says... .and what it actually says... are 180 out.

Sigh... .
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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2015, 07:56:54 PM »

Why are we looking for a leader of a family in a person who is not a leader in his own personal life? 

Darn good observation. I recently read an article that states it only takes one person to fix most marriages, one to lead and one to follow. It certainly isn't going to be the pwBPD up front leading the charge.

Oh, yes.  I have half finished projects all around our house.

Is this really a symptom of BPD?  

Yes, it is part of BPD. I can show you a dozen half-finished crafts, piles of carefully washed laundry that does not get put away, and ingredients bought for recipes never made to prove it.        
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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2015, 08:00:06 PM »

The real issue here is that I do not respect him or his opinions.  Wow ... .this is heavy.      

Unfortunately... .I would have to agree... .  I haven't respected my wife in a while.

Sometimes I feel sorry for her... .

I've been off my game (dealing with BPD traits) for a while... .I need to turn this around.  Tough to know that I will be doing it by myself.
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2015, 08:06:58 PM »

I especially sympathize with you about the laziness.  At least your H is still holding down a job; mine has not worked since 2006.  He was a preacher 12 years, but the two congregations he preached for kept asking what he was doing when he was not standing in the pulpit.  I knew the answer was "absolutely nothing".  He has a photographic memory, had memorized the Bible and was able to preach without even having to write up a sermon.  We had five babies, and he never changed a diaper, vacumed a floor, or cooked a meal.  I eventually realized that this was not going to change and felt guilty for his getting paid by the chuch for doing so little.  I encouraged him to quit preaching for money but to continue preaching because he was good at it.  Instead, he quit preaching all together and has drifted into alcohol and marijuna (an old favorite from high school) and has ever since blamed me for his downfall.  

He sold Real Estate for four years, and I worked with him but got tired of the other agents asking why I was doing all the work and letting him take the credit.  I quit working with him and went back into the medical field.  After I left the office, the other agents got fed up with his laziness, paranoia about them, and general unprofessionalism, and he was ousted (which is, of course, my fault).  His last job was as a laborer, from which he was fired for the marijuna.  He blames the manager for this one: "He just wanted to  give his son my position."  

Since then he has done very little.  I have worked for the last 9 years to feed and house our famliy while he plays guitar, fishes, or watches TV.  My family is very angry with him for not supporting us.  Most of the time I am just happy when he stays stoned in his room and not raging.  But when people ask me what he does, I am just embarrassed and just shrug or say, "As little as possible". He has said many times that he lost his careers because I never stuck up for him when people complained about him.  He once told me that he was "retired", to which I answered, "Oh? From what?"  
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« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2015, 08:12:20 PM »

Looking for the humor? Here it is. Though I never worked in the field, I have a degree in... .organic chemistry.   

LOL,

I have a degree in Communications.  Also... .my 20 years in the Navy was spent flying a command and control airplane... .so... I thought about tens of thousands of people communicating... .a lot.

Yet... .she will claim I don't know what I'm talking about... .and usually reference an article she has read.  Usually... what she claims the article says... .and what it actually says... are 180 out.

Sigh... .

Hawkeyes or Mercurys?

Again, glad I am not crazy and this actually happens to many of my fellow NON's, also. Never ceases to amaze me that to a pwBPD complete strangers are more credible than a spouse or family member.

I have decided to consider this behavior as quirky and entertaining, otherwise I would run screaming from the house.  

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« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2015, 08:17:47 PM »

The real issue here is that I do not respect him or his opinions.  Wow ... .this is heavy.      

Unfortunately... .I would have to agree... .  I haven't respected my wife in a while.

Sometimes I feel sorry for her... .

I haven't respected my H in a long time either. My lack of respect for him and his opinions goes back to the early days. I would try to do something that seemed like a good idea only to have him tell me that I was wrong or didn't need to worry about it. I would follow his lead and listen to him only to get screwed.

One of the examples that comes to mind is a flood that happened. I could look at the radar and see that it was likely to flood. I wanted to get my van out of the yard and to a safe place. I could have gotten it out rather easily when I first said something. He wouldn't let me get my van out. He kept telling me that everything would be okay when I knew it wouldn't. He wanted to pull me into his delusion and try to convince me that everything was okay despite all of the evidence pointing to the contrary. My van flooded and I lost it because it was all electric and it went half way under water.

He did that to me with the roof too. Even though I knew that the roof was NOT okay and would soon begin leaking, he tried to convince me that it would be okay. Hell, water was dripping into the living room and he said it would be okay. Our oldest was upset because one of the leaks was back by her computer. She and I were trying to see if we could find a place to move her computer until the roof got fixed. He got mad at us for wanting to move her computer.

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« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2015, 08:21:37 PM »

The real issue here is that I do not respect him or his opinions.  Wow ... .this is heavy.      

Unfortunately... .I would have to agree... .  I haven't respected my wife in a while.

Sometimes I feel sorry for her... .

I haven't respected my H in a long time either.

WOW. My wife tells me all the time she does not think I respect her. Maybe I don't. But it is hard to respect opinions based on skewed perception from someone who is likely to change their mind at any moment.

Think I need to work on that... .

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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2015, 08:27:43 PM »

WOW. My wife tells me all the time she does not think I respect her. Maybe I don't. But it is hard to respect opinions based on skewed perception from someone who is likely to change their mind at any moment.

Think I need to work on that... . 

How does one work on that? How can I work on respecting somebody whose behavior, thoughts, and opinions are not grounded in reality? I cannot sit here and honestly say that I respect my husband. I don't. I am not sure what it would take for me to respect him again.
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« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2015, 08:38:10 PM »

 

Respect is earned... .IMO.

Still... .I don't to show disrespect to my wife... .

Not sure how to manage that... .
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« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2015, 08:50:09 PM »

In fits of honesty, wife will tell me she understands that it is hard for me to respect her when she does not respect herself. She knows she makes poor choices, acts out, embarrasses herself and others, and misinterprets reality quite often. She has told me on several occasions that when she disregulates, she knows it but cannot control it. Hard to respect yourself when you know you cannot control your own emotions.
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« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2015, 08:53:38 PM »

 

How often is she this self aware... .?

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« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2015, 08:57:57 PM »

Respect is earned... .IMO.

Still... .I don't to show disrespect to my wife... .

Not sure how to manage that... .

Same here. I don't respect him and his opinions but I try not to be disrespectful towards him either.

I try to separate the idea of "I respect him as a human being and I try to treat all human beings in a polite and dignified way" verses "I do not respect his ideas and opinions. I do not respect him as a partner." I am not sure how to reconcile all of this.

It feels like a conundrum.
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« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2015, 09:01:03 PM »

 

VOC,

That is just about a direct quote... from my brain and feelings... .that you wrote about your hubby.

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« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2015, 09:10:19 PM »

How often is she this self aware... .?

Often, actually. A couple weeks ago she apologized and was really upset over how she acted at my grandmother's funeral last year (she acted horribly) and said she did not know why she did that. She also apologized for calling and screaming at me about my sister-in-law for no apparent reason.  

This last Monday she told me she knows how horrible she treats me and wants to change her behavior. She had horrible nightmares Monday and Tuesday nights and came in to sleep with me for the first time in a year. She cried a lot and said she wants to be the woman she used to be before the bipolar and BPD symptoms surfaced.

Wednesday night we were looking through old family pictures. She broke down and pointed out how everyone has to watch what they say and do around her at family gatherings because she gets mad at stupid things.

And maybe that is why I have stayed this long. She knows how she acts and wants to change. As long as she stays with her new T and I keep with the lessons on this site, I believe she can make some progress.  
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« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2015, 09:21:48 PM »

Yes, Vortex.  All human beings are to be respected just for being human.  Here is a post by a young lady healing from being raised by a BPD mother.  If we insert "respect" where she says "love" and "partner" where she says "mother", I think we can use her unusual perspective to help us to "respect" our spouses.  After all, love is a decision, not a feeling, and respect can be too. 

"If wondering whether or not you love your mother causes you guilt and distress, then love her unconditionally. By which I mean, do exactly what you already do. You have loved her in spite of [her behaviors before], meaning that you [already] do love her unconditionally.

Unconditional love is not something you need to prove through words or actions or even feelings. Let "unconditional love" be a fact of your relationship, not something you feel. You love your mother unconditionally, and you require the boundaries to feel secure in your sense of autonomy. You love your mother unconditionally, and you feel more attached to your puppy than to her. Notice how these are "and" statements, not "but" statements. Setting up a boundary does not effect your unconditional love for your mother. Feeling super-attached to your puppy is not in conflict with your unconditional love to your mother. Feelings can't change facts and facts can't change feelings. Allow the two to exist independently.

Letting your unconditional love be a fact allows all other issues to then become matters of feelings, wants, needs, and so on. You can act on your feelings, wants, and needs, but facts simply are. Ignore that fact the same way you ignore your breathing when you're engaged in some other action. You can control it when you need to, but otherwise it can take care of itself. Let it be a non-issue. It's not something you need to work on or think about. It just is. Don't let it factor in to your feelings, thoughts, or actions, just let it exist.

That's what I think, anyway. Loving my mother has always been a fact, not something I felt. She is important to me. She is important to me unconditionally. I don't have a lot of positive feelings towards my mother. But she is and will always be very important to me. That is what unconditional love is for me, the recognition that someone will always matter to me.  For all I talk, I honestly don't mean to sound like I've got all the answers! Maybe this is all really bad advice. I don't know. It's just what works for me."

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« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2015, 09:47:13 PM »

Yes, Vortex.  All human beings are to be respected just for being human.  Here is a post by a young lady healing from being raised by a BPD mother.  If we insert "respect" where she says "love" and "partner" where she says "mother", I think we can use her unusual perspective to help us to "respect" our spouses.  After all, love is a decision, not a feeling, and respect can be too. 

I am not going to respect my husband's ideas and opinions any more than I am going to respect my mother's ideas and opinions. I don't see love and respect as being the same. I find that confusing.

Excerpt
"If wondering whether or not you love your mother causes you guilt and distress, then love her unconditionally. By which I mean, do exactly what you already do. You have loved her in spite of [her behaviors before], meaning that you [already] do love her unconditionally.

":)o exactly what you already do". . .as Dr. Phil would say, how is that working for you? It isn't working for me. Getting caught up in thinking about loving unconditionally and things like that doesn't really help me much. If I am completely honest with myself, I am not longer in love with my husband. I am on the staying boards seeking advice so I can try to keep things more peaceful. I want a peaceful home for myself and the kids. I do what I do out of love for my kids. I cannot say that I am in love with my husband.

I was talking to my oldest daughter last night and we were talking about how dad used to be when she was younger. I said that I wished that her dad could go back to being the way he used to be when she was younger. Her response was, "Obviously, we don't live in a fairy tale mom." Her words have been echoing in my head all day. This isn't a fair tale. I know who and what my husband is and I am trying to swallow that. Besides, when I think about the love aspect, it is too easy to get caught up in, "If you love me, you will. . ."

Excerpt
Unconditional love is not something you need to prove through words or actions or even feelings. Let "unconditional love" be a fact of your relationship, not something you feel.

I am not going to play word games with myself. Unconditional love is NOT a fact of my relationship. I might have been able to say that at one time. I cannot say that without there being a delusional element to it.

Excerpt
Letting your unconditional love be a fact allows all other issues to then become matters of feelings, wants, needs, and so on. You can act on your feelings, wants, and needs, but facts simply are. Ignore that fact the same way you ignore your breathing when you're engaged in some other action. You can control it when you need to, but otherwise it can take care of itself. Let it be a non-issue. It's not something you need to work on or think about. It just is. Don't let it factor in to your feelings, thoughts, or actions, just let it exist.

I don't think that it is prudent to act on feelings, wants, and needs. I think it is better to allow myself to feel things without acting on them. When I get angry at my husband, it is better to find healthy ways of dealing with that anger instead of acting on it. I do think I need to work on and think about how I deal with my own feelings, wants, and needs.

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« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2015, 10:51:18 PM »

 

Hmmm... .VOC... I'm with you... again I think!

Respect and love are very different to me.

Even love... .I have different parts.  I have feelings of love and fondness... .that come and go.  I have made a choice to love... .and while that is different than the feeling... it is just as real to me.

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« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2015, 11:03:18 PM »

Hmmm... .VOC... I'm with you... again I think!

Respect and love are very different to me.

Even love... .I have different parts.  I have feelings of love and fondness... .that come and go.  I have made a choice to love... .and while that is different than the feeling... it is just as real to me.

I am trying to move away from thinking about things in terms of love and respect.

I can look at my actions and see whether or not my actions are in line with what I am trying to achieve, which is a peaceful household. For a while, I was trying to focus on what I want out of a romantic relationship. I keep backing off thinking about things like love and partnership because those things tend to have too many expectations attached.

I can make a choice to act in loving ways without having the accompanying feelings.
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« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2015, 11:11:46 PM »

Yeah, you are right, guys.  Love and respect are not the same thing. And the post I quoted was a bit confusing.  While we can decide to love someone despite their behaviors, respect has to be earned and can be lost.  

And, Vortex, I didn't mean to make you more upset then you already sound.  We all understand (and respect) that you are just trying to make a peaceful home for your family.  Keep up the good work.  

I remember my dBiPD sister once told me that she had tied a knot at the end of her rope so many times, it looked like macrame!  
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2015, 01:08:00 PM »

Yeah, you are right, guys.  Love and respect are not the same thing. And the post I quoted was a bit confusing.  While we can decide to love someone despite their behaviors, respect has to be earned and can be lost.  

And, Vortex, I didn't mean to make you more upset then you already sound.  We all understand (and respect) that you are just trying to make a peaceful home for your family.  Keep up the good work.  

I remember my dBiPD sister once told me that she had tied a knot at the end of her rope so many times, it looked like macrame!  

When I initially posted, I was upset. When I posted about the distinction between love and respect, I wasn't upset at all. I was simply trying to explain that I am not figuring love and respect into the equation. For me, it is helpful to leave love and respect out of the equation. I know that sounds odd.

I was reminded this morning of why I tend to not think in those terms. I have been told quite a few times "If you love somebody, you will do <fill in the blank>". As somebody that likes logic, I would get caught up in thinking about my relationship with my husband in terms of logic. He doesn't do <fill in the blank>, therefore he doesn't love me. I spent way too much time fretting over that. It also got me into a bit of trouble because I used to think that setting boundaries to protect myself was not loving towards him.

If I look at the actions involved instead of messing around with the feelings, I have better results. It also helps me to stop listening to my husband's words and look at his actions. He can say, "I love and respect you" all day long and I won't believe one single bit of it because I don't see it in his actions.
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2015, 01:21:19 PM »

That's exactly where I am right now.  I am hearing daily "I love you" but it means nothing to me when I know he can, at the drop of a hat, become hateful and mean when in a rage.  Yes, he's working on that, and hasn't hit a 9 on the Richter scale in maybe 10 months, but every one of those rages and what he said and did to me is still rather fresh in my mind.  For the first few years, I would "move forward" and expect what he said in remorse after a rage ("I'll never do that again", "I am so sorry", "I'll get help for this" but not anymore.  Believing those things and having hope only to have it dashed time and time again has taken it's toll.  That is a big part of where the respect went. 
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2015, 01:32:04 PM »

When I initially posted, I was upset. When I posted about the distinction between love and respect, I wasn't upset at all.

Vortex, I'm sorry (Gosh, I say that a lot) that I misinterpreted your comments as anger or bitterness.  I have a strong phobia of having anyone mad at me.  Can't stand if I have displeased anyone or made anyone unhappy.  A major problem I need to work on.  I am feeling especially small, weak, and vunerable right at this moment.  Depressed.  And I was so strong, happy, and sure of myself just a couple of days ago!  I guess my H is right; I am the crazy one ... .:'(  I had better put on a happy face or he will see my weakness and use it against me again ... .  All of you who pray, please pray for me.
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2015, 01:45:51 PM »

Vortex, I'm sorry (Gosh, I say that a lot) that I misinterpreted your comments as anger or bitterness.  I have a strong phobia of having anyone mad at me.  Can't stand if I have displeased anyone or made anyone unhappy.  A major problem I need to work on.  I am feeling especially small, weak, and vunerable right at this moment.  Depressed.  And I was so strong, happy, and sure of myself just a couple of days ago!  I guess my H is right; I am the crazy one ... .:'(  I had better put on a happy face or he will see my weakness and use it against me again ... .  All of you who pray, please pray for me.

   

I know those feelings all too well. I don't like upsetting other people either. I would rather sacrifice myself than upset somebody else. That is part of MY problem. I have to be okay with the fact that I cannot please everyone. I can't take care of myself if I am worrying about whether or not I have upset somebody else.

I don't think you are crazy at all. This is a very hard process. I am working through a lot of uncomfortable feelings and emotions. I am finding better tools such as posting here or venting to a friend rather than bottle everything all up and letting things eat me up inside.

One of the other things that I am working on is not worrying so much about other people's feelings. To me, that sounds mean and callous. It sounds very selfish to me too. The truth is that it isn't mean or callous or selfish. It is me trying to do a better job of taking care of myself.

It is not responsibility to monitor and fix my husband's feelings. It is my responsibility to worry about my feelings and my actions. It is way easier said than done. It is so much easier to try to analyze my husband and his behavior rather than looking at, "He did this and it pi$$ed me off." It doesn't matter what his motives were. He did it and I was mad. Period. I have a right to be mad at him. That doesn't mean that I should act on that anger though.
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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2015, 01:53:32 PM »

  Thank you.

My daughter said last night, "When you go to therapy, they will want to know why you have not left him yet.  And "Becasue I am co-dependent" is not a good answer."  I told her I would try to think of another one. 
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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2015, 03:48:12 PM »

For me, it is helpful to leave love and respect out of the equation. I know that sounds odd.

I was reminded this morning of why I tend to not think in those terms. I have been told quite a few times "If you love somebody, you will do <fill in the blank>". As somebody that likes logic, I would get caught up in thinking about my relationship with my husband in terms of logic. He doesn't do <fill in the blank>, therefore he doesn't love me. I spent way too much time fretting over that. It also got me into a bit of trouble because I used to think that setting boundaries to protect myself was not loving towards him.

Where does that definition of love come from, VOC? Do you really believe it?

I gotta say that based on it, keeping love out of the equation sounds like a good idea!
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2015, 05:14:19 PM »

Where does that definition of love come from, VOC? Do you really believe it?

I gotta say that based on it, keeping love out of the equation sounds like a good idea!

I am not sure where that definition comes from. I think it is a conglomeration of lots of different things, some of it might be societal, some of it might be FOO, and some of it is based on my own experiences in life.

I am not sure what I think about love at the moment. It is a pain in the butt and it stinks and I don't even want to think about it.
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2015, 05:52:25 PM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.
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« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2015, 06:04:36 PM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.

Exactly! And that is why I can't think about love. I do things out of love. It isn't enough so I do more. In my head, a romantic relationship involves two people that look out for each other and have each other's backs. If I am feeling overwhelmed or need help, it should be my partner that is there for me, not a bunch of strangers on a discussion forum, not a friend or family member, but the partner that I chose to marry because I saw so many good things about him.

I have years and years of that not working. I have deluded myself into thinking that things will get better when <fill in the blank>. I have consoled myself with listening to my husband tell me that he loves me and that he never intends to hurt me. I have listened to so much BS for the past 17 years and I have done it in the name of love. F**k love! 
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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2015, 06:26:11 PM »

 A hug for you, V.    Life sounds really tough at your house.  Maybe you'll get a laugh out of this one, while we are on the topic of BPD's not doing what is asked of them.  It is totally part of life in our house so much that I don't ask him to do anything, most of the time.  Sometimes tho, you can't help but ask for help.

I was just making us toasted sandwiches.  I had my back to the toaster and H was just out back, not too far away.  I turn around and there are flames coming out of the toaster, there are flames all along the shelf on top of the toaster, and black smoke is billowing everywhere! 

I scream at him to come in.  I get the flames on the shelf put out.  I scream to him again.  I get the toaster unplugged.  I scream again.  I cover the toaster to try to suffocate the flames.  It doesn't work!  I scream as loud as I can.  He moseys in, he has his big mittens on.  I say "take it out side, take it out side."  He doesn't.

He stands there and, guess what, bet you can't guess what he did... .he argued with me!  Yes, he did.  That's all he came in to do, to argue with me.

 

Anyway, fire's out.  Toaster's toast in the snowbank.  My nerves have finally stopped vibrating.  Smoke's cleared out, and all I can think is, Lord help us all!
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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2015, 07:18:58 PM »

 I did same thing to microwave... many many years ago.

Wife opened door and I chucked a burning appliance... .

Ahhh... memories... .
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« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2015, 07:45:58 PM »

Love comes from what you think of someones deeper inner person, not their capabilities.

Respect comes from someones personal effort, not whether they throw easy gifts or money at you, it can't be bought. Unless you are superficial in yourself.

You can love without respect and you can respect without love. If you can do both then life is a whole lot better.

Many pwBPD will attempt to buy respect with minimal personal effort or inconvenience. this can leave us feeling guilty for not feeling it if we don't understand the mechanics at work.
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« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2015, 11:32:27 PM »

A hug for you, V.    Life sounds really tough at your house.  Maybe you'll get a laugh out of this one, while we are on the topic of BPD's not doing what is asked of them.  It is totally part of life in our house so much that I don't ask him to do anything, most of the time.  Sometimes tho, you can't help but ask for help.

I was just making us toasted sandwiches.  I had my back to the toaster and H was just out back, not too far away.  I turn around and there are flames coming out of the toaster, there are flames all along the shelf on top of the toaster, and black smoke is billowing everywhere! 

I scream at him to come in.  I get the flames on the shelf put out.  I scream to him again.  I get the toaster unplugged.  I scream again.  I cover the toaster to try to suffocate the flames.  It doesn't work!  I scream as loud as I can.  He moseys in, he has his big mittens on.  I say "take it out side, take it out side."  He doesn't.

He stands there and, guess what, bet you can't guess what he did... .he argued with me!  Yes, he did.  That's all he came in to do, to argue with me.

 

Anyway, fire's out.  Toaster's toast in the snowbank.  My nerves have finally stopped vibrating.  Smoke's cleared out, and all I can think is, Lord help us all!

I had a similar experience years ago before I knew about BPD.  Our stacker washer and dryer was in the garage.  We were heading out for a few hours and I had a load in the dryer.  To this day I have no idea why but I decided to check the stuff in the dryer before we left.  I never did that before.  I go into the garage and absently notice some orange lights coming out of an odd place in the dryer.  I open the dryer which is running and realize that what I saw was flames and because of the fire, the dryer is running and doesn't shut off as usual when I open the door.  There are clothes on fire tumbling around in the dryer.  I run to the door to the house and scream for him that there's a fire.  He comes in and stands there doing nothing for a minute while I call 911 and then he starts pulling objects on fire and throwing them randomly all over the garage.  I couldn't (and still don't) understand what he was doing... .
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« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2015, 12:27:52 AM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.

The Grand Canyon has a bottom.  You could actually fill it, in theory.

The BPD heart is bottomless, I think.  Or at least I'm starting to.

Gomez
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« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2015, 12:35:15 AM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.

The Grand Canyon has a bottom.  You could actually fill it, in theory.

The BPD heart is bottomless, I think.  Or at least I'm starting to.

Gomez

The normally used analogy is a Black hole. You can throw everything you have into it. End up with nothing and the black hole is unchanged.

Another is like trying to relocate the Sahara desert with nothing but a pitchfork
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« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2015, 08:33:12 AM »

Here's something I take comfort in.  When Jesus was asked how many times one should forgive someone who's sinning against us he did not say forever - he said 'seventy times seven times.'

This sounds like a lot of forgiving, but I'm quite certain that in 17years you've been married to this guy, V, you've done that and more. Compare the number of days you've been struggling with the 490 times Jesus would forgive... .The point is even Jesus had a limit to the amount of crap one should take.

I found a definition of love last night in my old notes about co-dependency that may help.  "Love is an energy that is manifested by a commitment and a will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's total growth, which includes physical, mental, emotional and spiritual dimensions." 

I like this definition because it makes it obvious why healthy love with a BPD SO is so difficult.  They don't have the commitment and will to nurture our growth, and because of that our love energy is rarely put into full effect.  They do not have the capacity to 'extend oneself'.  Sad, but rings true to me.

My BPDh figures if I don't make his meals, wait on him or help him with every chore he has, I don't love him.     I told him last night that I can love him and not do anything about it and that is totally in my right to do so.  Love is NOT an obligation, it's a feeling, an energy.   There is NO OBLIGATION to express that love into action. 

Just because I cannot cook meals and clean up daily for my grandbaby 5000kms away, does not mean I don't love her, right?  Love holds no obligations, only the one's we put on it.

I say all that to say, I think it's okay to say 'f$&k love', and I'm done forgiving him.  If that's where you are, that is okay, and it may actually be a healthy step for you.

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