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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
A Powerful Life Skill
Setting Boundaries
and Setting Limits
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Author Topic: Fed Up  (Read 683 times)
Cole
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« Reply #30 on: March 21, 2015, 09:10:19 PM »

How often is she this self aware... .?

Often, actually. A couple weeks ago she apologized and was really upset over how she acted at my grandmother's funeral last year (she acted horribly) and said she did not know why she did that. She also apologized for calling and screaming at me about my sister-in-law for no apparent reason.  

This last Monday she told me she knows how horrible she treats me and wants to change her behavior. She had horrible nightmares Monday and Tuesday nights and came in to sleep with me for the first time in a year. She cried a lot and said she wants to be the woman she used to be before the bipolar and BPD symptoms surfaced.

Wednesday night we were looking through old family pictures. She broke down and pointed out how everyone has to watch what they say and do around her at family gatherings because she gets mad at stupid things.

And maybe that is why I have stayed this long. She knows how she acts and wants to change. As long as she stays with her new T and I keep with the lessons on this site, I believe she can make some progress.  
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milesperhour

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« Reply #31 on: March 21, 2015, 09:21:48 PM »

Yes, Vortex.  All human beings are to be respected just for being human.  Here is a post by a young lady healing from being raised by a BPD mother.  If we insert "respect" where she says "love" and "partner" where she says "mother", I think we can use her unusual perspective to help us to "respect" our spouses.  After all, love is a decision, not a feeling, and respect can be too. 

"If wondering whether or not you love your mother causes you guilt and distress, then love her unconditionally. By which I mean, do exactly what you already do. You have loved her in spite of [her behaviors before], meaning that you [already] do love her unconditionally.

Unconditional love is not something you need to prove through words or actions or even feelings. Let "unconditional love" be a fact of your relationship, not something you feel. You love your mother unconditionally, and you require the boundaries to feel secure in your sense of autonomy. You love your mother unconditionally, and you feel more attached to your puppy than to her. Notice how these are "and" statements, not "but" statements. Setting up a boundary does not effect your unconditional love for your mother. Feeling super-attached to your puppy is not in conflict with your unconditional love to your mother. Feelings can't change facts and facts can't change feelings. Allow the two to exist independently.

Letting your unconditional love be a fact allows all other issues to then become matters of feelings, wants, needs, and so on. You can act on your feelings, wants, and needs, but facts simply are. Ignore that fact the same way you ignore your breathing when you're engaged in some other action. You can control it when you need to, but otherwise it can take care of itself. Let it be a non-issue. It's not something you need to work on or think about. It just is. Don't let it factor in to your feelings, thoughts, or actions, just let it exist.

That's what I think, anyway. Loving my mother has always been a fact, not something I felt. She is important to me. She is important to me unconditionally. I don't have a lot of positive feelings towards my mother. But she is and will always be very important to me. That is what unconditional love is for me, the recognition that someone will always matter to me.  For all I talk, I honestly don't mean to sound like I've got all the answers! Maybe this is all really bad advice. I don't know. It's just what works for me."

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #32 on: March 21, 2015, 09:47:13 PM »

Yes, Vortex.  All human beings are to be respected just for being human.  Here is a post by a young lady healing from being raised by a BPD mother.  If we insert "respect" where she says "love" and "partner" where she says "mother", I think we can use her unusual perspective to help us to "respect" our spouses.  After all, love is a decision, not a feeling, and respect can be too. 

I am not going to respect my husband's ideas and opinions any more than I am going to respect my mother's ideas and opinions. I don't see love and respect as being the same. I find that confusing.

Excerpt
"If wondering whether or not you love your mother causes you guilt and distress, then love her unconditionally. By which I mean, do exactly what you already do. You have loved her in spite of [her behaviors before], meaning that you [already] do love her unconditionally.

":)o exactly what you already do". . .as Dr. Phil would say, how is that working for you? It isn't working for me. Getting caught up in thinking about loving unconditionally and things like that doesn't really help me much. If I am completely honest with myself, I am not longer in love with my husband. I am on the staying boards seeking advice so I can try to keep things more peaceful. I want a peaceful home for myself and the kids. I do what I do out of love for my kids. I cannot say that I am in love with my husband.

I was talking to my oldest daughter last night and we were talking about how dad used to be when she was younger. I said that I wished that her dad could go back to being the way he used to be when she was younger. Her response was, "Obviously, we don't live in a fairy tale mom." Her words have been echoing in my head all day. This isn't a fair tale. I know who and what my husband is and I am trying to swallow that. Besides, when I think about the love aspect, it is too easy to get caught up in, "If you love me, you will. . ."

Excerpt
Unconditional love is not something you need to prove through words or actions or even feelings. Let "unconditional love" be a fact of your relationship, not something you feel.

I am not going to play word games with myself. Unconditional love is NOT a fact of my relationship. I might have been able to say that at one time. I cannot say that without there being a delusional element to it.

Excerpt
Letting your unconditional love be a fact allows all other issues to then become matters of feelings, wants, needs, and so on. You can act on your feelings, wants, and needs, but facts simply are. Ignore that fact the same way you ignore your breathing when you're engaged in some other action. You can control it when you need to, but otherwise it can take care of itself. Let it be a non-issue. It's not something you need to work on or think about. It just is. Don't let it factor in to your feelings, thoughts, or actions, just let it exist.

I don't think that it is prudent to act on feelings, wants, and needs. I think it is better to allow myself to feel things without acting on them. When I get angry at my husband, it is better to find healthy ways of dealing with that anger instead of acting on it. I do think I need to work on and think about how I deal with my own feelings, wants, and needs.

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« Reply #33 on: March 21, 2015, 10:51:18 PM »

 

Hmmm... .VOC... I'm with you... again I think!

Respect and love are very different to me.

Even love... .I have different parts.  I have feelings of love and fondness... .that come and go.  I have made a choice to love... .and while that is different than the feeling... it is just as real to me.

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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #34 on: March 21, 2015, 11:03:18 PM »

Hmmm... .VOC... I'm with you... again I think!

Respect and love are very different to me.

Even love... .I have different parts.  I have feelings of love and fondness... .that come and go.  I have made a choice to love... .and while that is different than the feeling... it is just as real to me.

I am trying to move away from thinking about things in terms of love and respect.

I can look at my actions and see whether or not my actions are in line with what I am trying to achieve, which is a peaceful household. For a while, I was trying to focus on what I want out of a romantic relationship. I keep backing off thinking about things like love and partnership because those things tend to have too many expectations attached.

I can make a choice to act in loving ways without having the accompanying feelings.
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milesperhour

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« Reply #35 on: March 21, 2015, 11:11:46 PM »

Yeah, you are right, guys.  Love and respect are not the same thing. And the post I quoted was a bit confusing.  While we can decide to love someone despite their behaviors, respect has to be earned and can be lost.  

And, Vortex, I didn't mean to make you more upset then you already sound.  We all understand (and respect) that you are just trying to make a peaceful home for your family.  Keep up the good work.  

I remember my dBiPD sister once told me that she had tied a knot at the end of her rope so many times, it looked like macrame!  
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2015, 01:08:00 PM »

Yeah, you are right, guys.  Love and respect are not the same thing. And the post I quoted was a bit confusing.  While we can decide to love someone despite their behaviors, respect has to be earned and can be lost.  

And, Vortex, I didn't mean to make you more upset then you already sound.  We all understand (and respect) that you are just trying to make a peaceful home for your family.  Keep up the good work.  

I remember my dBiPD sister once told me that she had tied a knot at the end of her rope so many times, it looked like macrame!  

When I initially posted, I was upset. When I posted about the distinction between love and respect, I wasn't upset at all. I was simply trying to explain that I am not figuring love and respect into the equation. For me, it is helpful to leave love and respect out of the equation. I know that sounds odd.

I was reminded this morning of why I tend to not think in those terms. I have been told quite a few times "If you love somebody, you will do <fill in the blank>". As somebody that likes logic, I would get caught up in thinking about my relationship with my husband in terms of logic. He doesn't do <fill in the blank>, therefore he doesn't love me. I spent way too much time fretting over that. It also got me into a bit of trouble because I used to think that setting boundaries to protect myself was not loving towards him.

If I look at the actions involved instead of messing around with the feelings, I have better results. It also helps me to stop listening to my husband's words and look at his actions. He can say, "I love and respect you" all day long and I won't believe one single bit of it because I don't see it in his actions.
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2015, 01:21:19 PM »

That's exactly where I am right now.  I am hearing daily "I love you" but it means nothing to me when I know he can, at the drop of a hat, become hateful and mean when in a rage.  Yes, he's working on that, and hasn't hit a 9 on the Richter scale in maybe 10 months, but every one of those rages and what he said and did to me is still rather fresh in my mind.  For the first few years, I would "move forward" and expect what he said in remorse after a rage ("I'll never do that again", "I am so sorry", "I'll get help for this" but not anymore.  Believing those things and having hope only to have it dashed time and time again has taken it's toll.  That is a big part of where the respect went. 
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2015, 01:32:04 PM »

When I initially posted, I was upset. When I posted about the distinction between love and respect, I wasn't upset at all.

Vortex, I'm sorry (Gosh, I say that a lot) that I misinterpreted your comments as anger or bitterness.  I have a strong phobia of having anyone mad at me.  Can't stand if I have displeased anyone or made anyone unhappy.  A major problem I need to work on.  I am feeling especially small, weak, and vunerable right at this moment.  Depressed.  And I was so strong, happy, and sure of myself just a couple of days ago!  I guess my H is right; I am the crazy one ... .:'(  I had better put on a happy face or he will see my weakness and use it against me again ... .  All of you who pray, please pray for me.
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vortex of confusion
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2015, 01:45:51 PM »

Vortex, I'm sorry (Gosh, I say that a lot) that I misinterpreted your comments as anger or bitterness.  I have a strong phobia of having anyone mad at me.  Can't stand if I have displeased anyone or made anyone unhappy.  A major problem I need to work on.  I am feeling especially small, weak, and vunerable right at this moment.  Depressed.  And I was so strong, happy, and sure of myself just a couple of days ago!  I guess my H is right; I am the crazy one ... .:'(  I had better put on a happy face or he will see my weakness and use it against me again ... .  All of you who pray, please pray for me.

   

I know those feelings all too well. I don't like upsetting other people either. I would rather sacrifice myself than upset somebody else. That is part of MY problem. I have to be okay with the fact that I cannot please everyone. I can't take care of myself if I am worrying about whether or not I have upset somebody else.

I don't think you are crazy at all. This is a very hard process. I am working through a lot of uncomfortable feelings and emotions. I am finding better tools such as posting here or venting to a friend rather than bottle everything all up and letting things eat me up inside.

One of the other things that I am working on is not worrying so much about other people's feelings. To me, that sounds mean and callous. It sounds very selfish to me too. The truth is that it isn't mean or callous or selfish. It is me trying to do a better job of taking care of myself.

It is not responsibility to monitor and fix my husband's feelings. It is my responsibility to worry about my feelings and my actions. It is way easier said than done. It is so much easier to try to analyze my husband and his behavior rather than looking at, "He did this and it pi$$ed me off." It doesn't matter what his motives were. He did it and I was mad. Period. I have a right to be mad at him. That doesn't mean that I should act on that anger though.
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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2015, 01:53:32 PM »

  Thank you.

My daughter said last night, "When you go to therapy, they will want to know why you have not left him yet.  And "Becasue I am co-dependent" is not a good answer."  I told her I would try to think of another one. 
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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2015, 03:48:12 PM »

For me, it is helpful to leave love and respect out of the equation. I know that sounds odd.

I was reminded this morning of why I tend to not think in those terms. I have been told quite a few times "If you love somebody, you will do <fill in the blank>". As somebody that likes logic, I would get caught up in thinking about my relationship with my husband in terms of logic. He doesn't do <fill in the blank>, therefore he doesn't love me. I spent way too much time fretting over that. It also got me into a bit of trouble because I used to think that setting boundaries to protect myself was not loving towards him.

Where does that definition of love come from, VOC? Do you really believe it?

I gotta say that based on it, keeping love out of the equation sounds like a good idea!
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2015, 05:14:19 PM »

Where does that definition of love come from, VOC? Do you really believe it?

I gotta say that based on it, keeping love out of the equation sounds like a good idea!

I am not sure where that definition comes from. I think it is a conglomeration of lots of different things, some of it might be societal, some of it might be FOO, and some of it is based on my own experiences in life.

I am not sure what I think about love at the moment. It is a pain in the butt and it stinks and I don't even want to think about it.
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2015, 05:52:25 PM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.
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« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2015, 06:04:36 PM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.

Exactly! And that is why I can't think about love. I do things out of love. It isn't enough so I do more. In my head, a romantic relationship involves two people that look out for each other and have each other's backs. If I am feeling overwhelmed or need help, it should be my partner that is there for me, not a bunch of strangers on a discussion forum, not a friend or family member, but the partner that I chose to marry because I saw so many good things about him.

I have years and years of that not working. I have deluded myself into thinking that things will get better when <fill in the blank>. I have consoled myself with listening to my husband tell me that he loves me and that he never intends to hurt me. I have listened to so much BS for the past 17 years and I have done it in the name of love. F**k love! 
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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2015, 06:26:11 PM »

 A hug for you, V.    Life sounds really tough at your house.  Maybe you'll get a laugh out of this one, while we are on the topic of BPD's not doing what is asked of them.  It is totally part of life in our house so much that I don't ask him to do anything, most of the time.  Sometimes tho, you can't help but ask for help.

I was just making us toasted sandwiches.  I had my back to the toaster and H was just out back, not too far away.  I turn around and there are flames coming out of the toaster, there are flames all along the shelf on top of the toaster, and black smoke is billowing everywhere! 

I scream at him to come in.  I get the flames on the shelf put out.  I scream to him again.  I get the toaster unplugged.  I scream again.  I cover the toaster to try to suffocate the flames.  It doesn't work!  I scream as loud as I can.  He moseys in, he has his big mittens on.  I say "take it out side, take it out side."  He doesn't.

He stands there and, guess what, bet you can't guess what he did... .he argued with me!  Yes, he did.  That's all he came in to do, to argue with me.

 

Anyway, fire's out.  Toaster's toast in the snowbank.  My nerves have finally stopped vibrating.  Smoke's cleared out, and all I can think is, Lord help us all!
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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2015, 07:18:58 PM »

 I did same thing to microwave... many many years ago.

Wife opened door and I chucked a burning appliance... .

Ahhh... memories... .
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« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2015, 07:45:58 PM »

Love comes from what you think of someones deeper inner person, not their capabilities.

Respect comes from someones personal effort, not whether they throw easy gifts or money at you, it can't be bought. Unless you are superficial in yourself.

You can love without respect and you can respect without love. If you can do both then life is a whole lot better.

Many pwBPD will attempt to buy respect with minimal personal effort or inconvenience. this can leave us feeling guilty for not feeling it if we don't understand the mechanics at work.
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« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2015, 11:32:27 PM »

A hug for you, V.    Life sounds really tough at your house.  Maybe you'll get a laugh out of this one, while we are on the topic of BPD's not doing what is asked of them.  It is totally part of life in our house so much that I don't ask him to do anything, most of the time.  Sometimes tho, you can't help but ask for help.

I was just making us toasted sandwiches.  I had my back to the toaster and H was just out back, not too far away.  I turn around and there are flames coming out of the toaster, there are flames all along the shelf on top of the toaster, and black smoke is billowing everywhere! 

I scream at him to come in.  I get the flames on the shelf put out.  I scream to him again.  I get the toaster unplugged.  I scream again.  I cover the toaster to try to suffocate the flames.  It doesn't work!  I scream as loud as I can.  He moseys in, he has his big mittens on.  I say "take it out side, take it out side."  He doesn't.

He stands there and, guess what, bet you can't guess what he did... .he argued with me!  Yes, he did.  That's all he came in to do, to argue with me.

 

Anyway, fire's out.  Toaster's toast in the snowbank.  My nerves have finally stopped vibrating.  Smoke's cleared out, and all I can think is, Lord help us all!

I had a similar experience years ago before I knew about BPD.  Our stacker washer and dryer was in the garage.  We were heading out for a few hours and I had a load in the dryer.  To this day I have no idea why but I decided to check the stuff in the dryer before we left.  I never did that before.  I go into the garage and absently notice some orange lights coming out of an odd place in the dryer.  I open the dryer which is running and realize that what I saw was flames and because of the fire, the dryer is running and doesn't shut off as usual when I open the door.  There are clothes on fire tumbling around in the dryer.  I run to the door to the house and scream for him that there's a fire.  He comes in and stands there doing nothing for a minute while I call 911 and then he starts pulling objects on fire and throwing them randomly all over the garage.  I couldn't (and still don't) understand what he was doing... .
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« Reply #49 on: March 23, 2015, 12:27:52 AM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.

The Grand Canyon has a bottom.  You could actually fill it, in theory.

The BPD heart is bottomless, I think.  Or at least I'm starting to.

Gomez
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« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2015, 12:35:15 AM »

Love is putting the other person's needs first. Unfortunately, when you love a pwBPD they can suck you dry pretty quick. I equate meeting my wife's needs to filling the grand canyon with a shovel. You may want to. You may even try. But eventually you give out from exhaustion.

The Grand Canyon has a bottom.  You could actually fill it, in theory.

The BPD heart is bottomless, I think.  Or at least I'm starting to.

Gomez

The normally used analogy is a Black hole. You can throw everything you have into it. End up with nothing and the black hole is unchanged.

Another is like trying to relocate the Sahara desert with nothing but a pitchfork
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« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2015, 08:33:12 AM »

Here's something I take comfort in.  When Jesus was asked how many times one should forgive someone who's sinning against us he did not say forever - he said 'seventy times seven times.'

This sounds like a lot of forgiving, but I'm quite certain that in 17years you've been married to this guy, V, you've done that and more. Compare the number of days you've been struggling with the 490 times Jesus would forgive... .The point is even Jesus had a limit to the amount of crap one should take.

I found a definition of love last night in my old notes about co-dependency that may help.  "Love is an energy that is manifested by a commitment and a will to extend oneself for the purpose of nurturing one's own or another's total growth, which includes physical, mental, emotional and spiritual dimensions." 

I like this definition because it makes it obvious why healthy love with a BPD SO is so difficult.  They don't have the commitment and will to nurture our growth, and because of that our love energy is rarely put into full effect.  They do not have the capacity to 'extend oneself'.  Sad, but rings true to me.

My BPDh figures if I don't make his meals, wait on him or help him with every chore he has, I don't love him.     I told him last night that I can love him and not do anything about it and that is totally in my right to do so.  Love is NOT an obligation, it's a feeling, an energy.   There is NO OBLIGATION to express that love into action. 

Just because I cannot cook meals and clean up daily for my grandbaby 5000kms away, does not mean I don't love her, right?  Love holds no obligations, only the one's we put on it.

I say all that to say, I think it's okay to say 'f$&k love', and I'm done forgiving him.  If that's where you are, that is okay, and it may actually be a healthy step for you.

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