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Author Topic: Got sucked in... opened up and shared my feelings... didn't go well... not good  (Read 962 times)
Cole
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« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2015, 07:46:22 AM »

For instance... .if we actually told them we are mad and they are stupid... .would they interpret we are happy with them?

FF, you try it first and let me know how it works!

In my case, she would love it because it validates her feelings of inadequacy and lack of self worth. And you just hit on something. Maybe she wants me to be mad at her so as to get that validation.      
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« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2015, 07:49:07 AM »

So... what are the chances we would be better off actually telling them all the negative stuff?  

For instance... .if we actually told them we are mad and they are stupid... .would they interpret we are happy with them?

Or... .do we just need to accept that they will have a negative... .toxic... .outlook and will reject happy thoughts...

They're going to interpret things however they want to.  We interpret things our own way, too.  If we're honest with our feelings, at least we all have something to work with and know where each other stand at any given time.  :)oesn't mean we/they can't or don't have the capacity to move closer to the middle ground.
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« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2015, 07:52:47 AM »

Formflier, is there any chance that you're having trouble finding your anger?  I'd be pissed off if my guy left and went to movies while I was at clinic with bloody finger.  I would not be in any mood for a date night after that.  Once the initial anger response calmed down, then the other feelings could and would surface. But denying my anger is akin to invalidating myself and not being totally honest with him.  

I've found that I can work through the "grieving process" in small increments = situations.  Kinda like pruning the trees, so that I can see the forest... .

I don't thing so... .because I was angry about that... .her going to movies.  I didn't tell her that... .she didn't allege differently.

My anger motivated me to keep going.  I was going to force the issue.  She was either going to go with me... .or back out on her commitment... .and actually say that.  She claims she "never" backs out... .

And... .to her credit... .she didn't last night... although I had to corner her.

And... .to be honest... .I did feel better after the date.  It really was a pleasant conversation... .once she got done huffing and sighing about putting away the phone with facebook on it.

I was clear with her that I'm fine to also go out on dates where she uses her phone... stares at facebook and multi-tasks while having conversation.  It shouldn't always be her way... or my way... .that I was open to compromise.

Back to anger.  The only time I expressed anger to her yesterday is when she started explaining that she uses tactics on me that she uses on the children to divert the conversation... or something like that.  My next sentence to her was that makes me very angry... .my voice was loud... .I said we should each be polite and treat each other as adults.  She disagrees... .I reiterated my anger and that it was directed at her and tactics to treat me like she does the kids.

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?
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« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2015, 08:04:22 AM »

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?

Not so much angry at her... .  Angry about a situation and how you see it, how you feel about it, the feelings it brings up in you... .
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« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2015, 08:14:30 AM »

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?

Not so much angry at her... .  Angry about a situation and how you see it, how you feel about it, the feelings it brings up in you... .

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually
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« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2015, 08:23:00 AM »

So... .there are times when I am angry at her... .and remove all doubt from her mind.

Dunno... .maybe I should do that more... .?

Not so much angry at her... . Angry about a situation and how you see it, how you feel about it, the feelings it brings up in you... .

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually

But are you validating them or pointing out the difference?
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« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2015, 09:10:01 AM »

My wife expects me to be "The rock". Almost like if I want to talk about MY feelings she acts like there is something wrong with me. I need to "lead by example" to keep her "stable". If I break our unspoken contract she flies of the handle into a rage. So I play the role... .I am very good at it... .I still don't fully comprehend why I am in it. 

No... .you don't get your emotional needs met... .ever. I guess I'm just happy not to have to deal with the "Blow ups" anymore. There is no doubt in my mind it takes a toll on you... .  Physically and mentally. I feel like I'm giving up a decade of my lifespan to stay... .
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« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2015, 09:27:25 AM »

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually

Are you ever angry AT her?

I ask this because there are times when I am absolutely, positively angry AT my husband. I see a lot of people on here talking about being angry about a situation. I see a lot of people denying that they are angry at the person. It seems a bit delusional for me to continually deny that I am angry at my husband. I still haven't worked up the nerve to tell him that directly. I am afraid of the possible repercussions.
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« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2015, 09:50:54 AM »

Has anyone ever just cried and sobbed? I remember doing this- without understanding what was going on. It was crying from a place of utter despair. My H hated that. I told him that the time he should be worrying is when the tears stopped, because if I didn't care enough to cry and show my feelings, that meant I didn't care at all.

The tears have stopped from time to time, because I just don't want to care enough to cry. I recall one time though, when I just got hysterical. It was when we were out of town and met up with an old childhood friend, someone I grew up with like a brother, never dated or wanted to. H went into an awful jealous rage over it. This was one time where I was expressing real joy at seeing an old friend after a long time, and that joy triggered him. It seems that when I do express joy over something that isn't about him, he is triggered.

When we were alone ( of course I would be composed if we were not) and I just lost it, sobbed for the longest time crying about how I feel that I can't  be happy in front of him. It was out of grief. This was a precious moment to me, something that gave me great joy, to see someone I have rarely seen since we were kids, and he had to do this. I wished that I had gone alone. Sobbed to the point that it actually scared him, snapped him out of his crazy inner world. However, if I just cry, it doesn't do this. This was intense, but it was real.
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« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2015, 09:59:33 AM »

Hmm... .I see... .I do that... .but much less than saying "what you just did made me angry"

Usually we see situations so much differently that she wants to argue about my anger or feelings being wrong... or that I am telling her that her feelings are wrong.

I constantly tell her... her feelings are fine... mine are fine... they are just different... there is no right or wrong.  She does not agree... usually

Are you ever angry AT her?

I ask this because there are times when I am absolutely, positively angry AT my husband. I see a lot of people on here talking about being angry about a situation. I see a lot of people denying that they are angry at the person. It seems a bit delusional for me to continually deny that I am angry at my husband. I still haven't worked up the nerve to tell him that directly. I am afraid of the possible repercussions.

It is OK to be angry AT them. If Mahatma Gandhi had been married to a pwBPD, he would have blown his fuse more than once also.

The first question is why do they make us mad? Is it intentional? A passive aggressive act? Or just plain irritation at the messed up way they live? Based on a conversation on this thread this morning, I have a theory my wife makes me mad on purpose to validate her feelings of inadequacy and low self worth. It is hard to justify core shame when no one is supporting it. 

The second question is what do we do with that anger? Do we show it and disregulate them, which just escalates the whole problem? Do we stay silent? Not a healthy option, either.
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« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2015, 11:00:28 AM »

ff at the point where you believe your wife is not dysregulated is the point of "critical mass" for me in this whole episode. That your wife had decided to take pack your two small children off to family without much warning would to me start alarm bells ringing.

How could you have done things differently at this particular point?

Can you see a pattern for how your wife struggles to deal with family events despite the best of plans?

Is there a way you could help her a bit more before an event as a way of circumventing possible dysregulation, or is there a way that you could begin to anticipate that dysregulation is likely to occur for her and be better prepared yourself?



@cole There is a third way... .and for me it is to use mindfulness. I didn't know this was what I was doing but it really works. It doesn't mean never addressing important issues in your relationship, it just means knowing/realising that you can wait, that you don't have to react because you have been triggered. For me it is about stepping away, this can be both physical and emotional, and choosing not to engage.  

What kick started this process for me was when I stopped JADEing, it was like this one thing set up a chain reaction for me to step away from the dysfunction and my part in it. It was my  Idea moment for sure.

For me my h engenders his negativity in me because this is the essence of the illness. It is at it's most simple a reenactment of his FOO issues over and over again. When I step into the dysfunctional dynamic as it occurs I reinforce the trauma and invalidate him everytime.

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« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2015, 11:12:17 AM »

The first question is why do they make us mad? Is it intentional? A passive aggressive act? Or just plain irritation at the messed up way they live? Based on a conversation on this thread this morning, I have a theory my wife makes me mad on purpose to validate her feelings of inadequacy and low self worth. It is hard to justify core shame when no one is supporting it. 

Think about your question "why do they make us mad"? I have been coming to an awareness that saying that somebody makes me mad is putting them in the position of being responsible for MY feelings. What would happen if I rephrased it as I got mad because of something that somebody else did? It is a very subtle nuance but I have found it helpful for me to say, "I am mad because. . ." I didn't really make this connection until I started noticing it in the kids. The older one would say something ugly and the little one would react and say, "She made me do it." No, nobody MADE you do anything. Yes, you are mad at your sister. She did not MAKE you do anything. Likewise, if I get mad at something my husband does, he did MAKE me get mad. Something he did triggered something in me and that something in me is what made me angry. I am still not sure how to apply this on a practical level as it is still at the level of awareness.

Excerpt
The second question is what do we do with that anger? Do we show it and disregulate them, which just escalates the whole problem? Do we stay silent? Not a healthy option, either.

That is the million dollar question! What do I do with that anger? I am trying to figure out how to fully separate my feelings from my actions. I can be angry without acting on that anger. If I am angry at him for something, I am trying to figure out how much of that anger is on me (most of it) and how much of it is on him. If I didn't have buttons that he could push, then it would become a non-issue. I can speak of all of this on a theoretical level but suck at actually applying it and figuring out how NOT to let my buttons get pushed.
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« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2015, 11:20:39 AM »

VOC you make a really important distinction about someone making you made or being emotionally triggered by something.

Most of my triggers with my h centre around my relationship with my father. Once I realised this, and it took a whole lot of JADE to get to that realisation, it was easier to walk away and not react whilst triggered.

The key is knowing the trigger.
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« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2015, 12:01:48 PM »

"For me my h engenders his negativity in me because this is the essence of the illness. It is at it's most simple a reenactment of his FOO issues over and over again. When I step into the dysfunctional dynamic as it occurs I reinforce the trauma and invalidate him everytime."

This is so true and thanks for this insight. I see where if I step into this, I become his father, or his stoic unemotional mother in the drama of his trauma. Ironically, it was through being codependent that I actually acted like them. His mother who is a co-dependent caretaker, and his critical dad when I was resentful. It's almost as if there was some force in him to wish me into these roles.

So, my own stuff fit is well. The conditional love I got for trying to keep everyone happy. I realized I was triggered when my own FOO issues were triggered. It has helped to work on those.

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« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2015, 02:25:19 PM »

That your wife had decided to take pack your two small children off to family without much warning would to me start alarm bells ringing.

How could you have done things differently at this particular point?

Can you see a pattern for how your wife struggles to deal with family events despite the best of plans?

Even after they are gone... .she has still not taken ownership for them being gone... .she has not clearly said... "I want them to go this week... ."

I asked her how she felt... .and had to read between the lines to figure it out.  Challenged it a couple times to try to gain clarity... .nope.

I clearly said... ."If it is up to me... I do not want them gone this coming week... .I would pick 3 weeks from now to send them.  Our kids will be on spring break then and we can do stuff with the older kids without the younger ones running around."  She didn't say she didn't like that idea... but pointed out numerous problems with it... .and dismissed what I saw as advantages.  Yet... .one of the points of sending the young ones away is so we can do stuff with older kids... ."they have needs too!"     

The reason she brought this up is because her parents asked... .no plan... .no notice... .  At Christmas they said they would be down in couple weeks for visit.  Didn't happen.  Out of nowhere they show up at sisters house and announce to wife they can help her by taking the kids off her hands... ."since they are so close... "

This is typical FOO behavior... .so... .she has learned it well.  FOO gets what they want... .when they want... .I am devil to resist any suggestion. 

This includes wife "making them happy"... by handing over $10k of the money she took out when she "unjointed" our finances.

VOC,

Interesting you have a roof story in one of your threads.  One of my wifes reasons for taking the money out was to get a roof... .because she had to be able to write a check for roof... .yet... .she wrote a check to transfer the money out... .hmmm

I would bring home contracts for roofers... .none of those were any good.  I would get up there to start working... .she would cuss me (literally) for not working other places... .garage... .car... .etc etc. 

That was a bad time... .

Even with yesterdays drama... .things are much... much better.

ff

Sigh... .
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« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2015, 04:18:11 PM »

I'm late to this thread, ff... .and I'm looking at it from a big picture perspective.

You and your wife have a household of 8 kids, and there are lots of complications to manage the lives of them. Lots of choices, lots of options.

Many of your worst fights are about what the kids are doing, or how they are disciplined, etc.

I think there is a large ongoing control battle here going on between the two of you.

Your wife thinks that this is her domain, and she gets to decide what happens.

You think that as a father, the head of the household, you have a right to be involved, and that you know better than she does in many cases.

You think that when you and she have a difference of opinion about how to do things, you will have a logical discussion with her, find a good compromise and resolve it gracefully, with both of you living up to the 'agreed' solution.

(That last part seems to go well in about 0.3% of conflicts you've mentioned!)

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« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2015, 05:09:47 PM »

 

Grey,

Yes... you pretty much have it. 

I'm not a sperm donor and a finance guy for her to raise a family... .how she sees fit.

Not going to happen.

She matters... .as do I. 

I don't want to spreadsheet it out to 50%... .but... .one way or another we will learn to compromise... most agreements will be kept.

It is actually getting better... .looking back over time... .but it still hurts to be open... .and to get knifed in the heart.

More later... .how goes boat projects?

FF
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« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2015, 08:44:39 PM »

I'm working more on accepting that low-grade depression and procrastination go together for me... .interspersed with times where I'm feeling the loss. That is slowing down boat progress. A lot. I was hit harder than I realized when my wife took her stuff off the boat and headed out of town. Weather should improve tomorrow or the next day; I hope my motivation comes along for more than a day with it.

OK, back to you... .confession time--I was putting that case out there almost as a leading question... .and since you did bite, here's what I'm thinking... .time for more radical acceptance.

The control battle exists, and pretending it isn't there is just gonna make a mess for you.

So... .whenever she seems to be trying to go off and do something you aren't certain of, or disagree with... .like sending your youngest kids off with her FOO for a couple weeks... .

Acknowledge that as soon as you express your opinion, or likely even ask her for details about what she's thinking of doing it will be invalidating and challenging to her. Don't expect an easy or reasonable conversation with her about it.

Instead, pause and think about the tools and lessons... .figure out what the best way to raise an issue with her is. And think about whether you really need to raise the issue at all or not. There is a lot to be said for choosing your battles.

The way you described this topic, I saw a lot of signs where you were pushing your wife in areas that (looking back) were difficult areas... .were unhappy/displeased/impatient about things... .even getting cues that she wasn't very comfortable... .and then you sounded surprised that she reacted BADLY.

I agree that exactly HOW she reacted badly sounded like a big surprise and a legitimate one. That she reacted badly didn't surprise me at all.
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« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2015, 09:18:27 PM »

The way you described this topic, I saw a lot of signs where you were pushing your wife in areas that (looking back) were difficult areas... .were unhappy/displeased/impatient about things... .even getting cues that she wasn't very comfortable... .and then you sounded surprised that she reacted BADLY.

I agree that exactly HOW she reacted badly sounded like a big surprise and a legitimate one. That she reacted badly didn't surprise me at all.

Yes... .is see this... .and some of this (on my part) is coming from an area of if "we" are going to be working on our marriage... .then... .sometimes she can be the one to tiptoe... .to bend... .if she is uncomfortable... .she can make a change to accommodate... .not me.

Did I deliberately think this through yesterday... .no... .but I have had those thoughts... .I'm sure it came through.

The only real surprise was how my talking about my feelings for our daughter... .triggered her.  After she asked.

I'm not going to let that drop... .not going to hammer away every day... .but... .if we don't get it sorted out by MC... .that will be big issue.

Being calm... .asking a partner to open up about feelings... .and then flipping out on them... .accusing them. 

How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife.  we've had those conversations before ... .similar... .and they have been fine.  Although her asking about my feelings was a bit different... .usually I offer thoughts on kids if we are talking.


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« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2015, 10:16:38 PM »

Yes... .is see this... .and some of this (on my part) is coming from an area of if "we" are going to be working on our marriage... .then... .sometimes she can be the one to tiptoe... .to bend... .if she is uncomfortable... .she can make a change to accommodate... .not me.

If she is uncomfortable, she has to deal with it the best she can.

If her 'best' is half-dysregulated and aimed at you... .well... .you are gonna be uncomfortable yourself, and have to deal with that.

Keep working on yourself... .don't let your ideas of how your marriage "should" be blind you to how it actually is.

I think the best thing you can do here is work on mindfulness and self-awareness. As you said, you had thoughts and feelings yesterday and they came through... .and they triggered a reaction too. Your thoughts and feelings aren't wrong. The more you are aware of them when they are happening, the more choice you have to improve things all around.

Excerpt
How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife.  we've had those conversations before ... .similar... .and they have been fine.  Although her asking about my feelings was a bit different... .usually I offer thoughts on kids if we are talking.

Sometimes it isn't your job to understand that sort of crap. If it is really important to your wife, you will have a chance to understand it later and validate it. If it was a momentary weirdness... .you don't need to understand.

And you sure aren't going to stop loving your child, or stop expressing that you love your child!

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« Reply #50 on: March 23, 2015, 03:14:52 PM »

Hi FF I'm going into this late, too. I just wanted to make a comment about how she would dysregulate over expressing your feelings for your child. It's simpler than you think.

1. Everyone and everything is competition, including the children and family pets.

2. pwBPD seem to see children as a literal extension of themselves, rather than as a whole different person.

I am really sorry no one even asked if you were ok. I know how that feels. Whenever I get hurt/sick, mentioning it makes my H angry, although he will whine about his ailments day in and out, and say with a straight face he never complains. I know for him it's not that he doesn't care, but because he cannot do anything about it, he feels helpless and makes him angry.



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« Reply #51 on: March 23, 2015, 04:12:46 PM »

"How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife. "

That's exactly how my mother saw it.
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« Reply #52 on: March 23, 2015, 05:51:31 PM »

"How on earth could me loving my child invalidate my wife. "

That's exactly how my mother saw it.

Mine, too.  That is how deeply disordered they can be FF and it makes no sense to us.  My dad was a teacher, he helped me with homework from time to time.  To hear my mom to this day (if I didn't put the kibosh to it!), was that "he did my schoolwork for me and you would think that a person in education wouldn't do such a thing and would know better!"  I remember reading a really cool story and asking my dad to read it, knowing that he would appreciate the twist at the end.  ":)on't do her homework for her!" He read it anyway, we were laughing and having a great time discussing it until she came in and put the brakes on our good time.  That is what she's basing her-- his doing my schoolwork for me-- on.  

This stuff is serious, especially when children are involved.  It's not something you can simply discuss, get to the bottom of it in one conversation and have that be that.  

Boundaries are our best friends, truly.  We cannot change them or their way of thinking.  We have zero control over the behavior of others or how they react.  We have 100% control over ours, if we can find it within ourselves.

I spent a lot of time hoping other people would do the right thing, according to my beliefs and standards. I spent a lot of time feeling very disappointed.

It's up to me to live my life according to my beliefs and standards and that's not very easy either.

Life... .what a trip!

ps: How does your finger feel today?  Is it healing up alright?

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formflier
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« Reply #53 on: April 08, 2015, 06:36:45 AM »

 

We have our MC appointment next week.  Somehow... .I want to effectively bring up this incident.  Probably will start another post on it.

My thoughts are that I want to focus on understanding the "hurts" in her life... .but don't want them confused with me sharing my feelings... .especially when she has asked.

Yep... .this is minefield.

Should have my other post on this up at some point today.

FF
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cloudten
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« Reply #54 on: April 08, 2015, 09:46:17 AM »

So... .question for the guys that have been doing this a while... .are you able to be emotionally open with your SO... .sometimes... .or do you cross that off list.

If you are... .how do you protect yourself... .?

"let me tell you a story.  There's a lion stalking and hunting a herd of elk and slowly picking off the members one by one.  I am one of the elk.  At one point, I'm the only one left.  You, the lion, come to me and say, 'come here.  Let me console you on the loss of your family'.  I am seriously supposed to be vulnerable and open emotionally with the person who causes me the most pain?"  It took him a minute, but he understood.  It's going to take a very long time of consistent behaviors and efforts on his side before I can let down that wall and be emotionally available to him.  I don't even know if I will ever get to that point after so much pain has been caused.

Wow- love this analogy of the lion and the elk. I am so sorry you have symptoms of PTSD and such... .I have been there too. Every time we break up my hair falls out and I am thrust into a world of PTSD, panic attacks, and heartbreak.

People teach us how to treat them... .and how to treat ourselves. I have been taught that I can't trust him, and I have been taught that I can't be vulnerable. Even if I am vulnerable and it goes well, he will ALWAYS use it against me at a later point in time.

FF- the whole incident could be something out of my life except without the children. I feel for you!
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EaglesJuju
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« Reply #55 on: April 08, 2015, 11:46:29 AM »

Staff only

This thread has reached its post limit, and is now closed. This is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation. Thanks for your understanding... .
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