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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: trying to handle things different  (Read 559 times)
Eco
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« on: March 22, 2015, 09:26:41 PM »

Just wanted to get some opinions on how im trying to handle things now. after having a complete emotional breakdown 2 weeks ago while my daughter was with me( she was asleep when I lost it) it started when I was putting my daughter to sleep, it was on Saturday and we celebrated her birthday and had a great day and I kept thinking how fast the weekend was going by and I only had 1 more day with her before I had to bring her back and I broke down in tears and couldn't stop, it was awful and I felt like I was losing my mind.

now I know this is extremely negative to think this way and I kept telling myself to enjoy my time I have with her and not dwell on when she has to go back.

all this got me thinking that I have to change my thinking or im going to end up in a padded room. Ive been to consumed by my ex and all her craziness concerning my daughter for too long, ive been trying to find a way to make my ex see how damaging her behavior is to our daughter and ive been so worried about losing my daughter because of my ex but the fact is I cant control my ex and I have been doing everything in my power for my daughter to make sure we have a healthy relationship.

one thing that really helped was reading about healthy attachments in kids and ways to build a healthy attachments ( thanks livedand learned ) according to what I read I have been doing everything right since my daughter was born and we have a healthy attachment so I feel a lot better in that sense.

Im trying to remind myself daily that as long as I keep doing what ive been doing with my daughter that things will be ok and im doing all I can in that dept so worrying wont help anything.

as far as my ex goes I felt that I had to counter all her negative and damaging things to our daughter which was turning into a fulltime job and draining me in every way, I didn't realize that this was taking so much joy away from me and my daughter because I felt like I had to be a perfect dad and make everything go the right way. it was way to much pressure and caused way to much anxiety to me.

I had my daughter this weekend and it was a great weekend, we connect so great and I think she didn't feel that stress on me that ive been carrying. I was still very sad that she had to leave but nothing like 2 weeks ago and I didn't think one time about her going home until it was time.

thanks for reading my rambling post and if anyone has any input feel free to post
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 06:11:15 PM »

Hi eco,

I really really understand this! I thought I had a real nervous breakdown -- I even went to see a psychiatrist, an old-school type who still does talk therapy, not just the pill dispensing kind. He said what I was describing was a breakthrough, not a breakdown. For me, it happened in a similar way to what you described. I felt I could not fix things, that I was boxed in a corner and couldn't make it better. I cried like I've never cried, and felt like I had a sobbing hangover for days after.

I think it's the "leaning in" that people talk about. You lean into the most terrifying pain -- your own helplessness. For me, it was so connected to core childhood feelings. Chaos, no control, and feeling helpless.

I'm not a therapist, just a fellow traveler. I look back at that breakthrough as an important day in my recovery. I learned that I can go all the way down to the underworld and face my scariest demons, and come out the other side. I also learned that I'm enough. It was the beginning of learning to love myself.

All of this had a big impact on my relationship with my son. Someone who gave me multiple  Idea Idea Idea after I had this experience is Brene Brown. You can google her to see her TED talk on vulnerability, shame, etc. She wrote a book called Daring Greatly, and from there, I learned about her Parenting Manifesto. It's sort of about the same thing you're talking about -- giving yourself permission to be human, to love yourself in all your humanness.   This will help your D learn to do the same. She will see you feeling like eco, being eco, forgiving yourself and loving yourself, and she will think that's normal and copy you  Smiling (click to insert in post) 

It is true that we face some serious challenges when the other parent is mentally ill. It is not a life sentence for our kids, though. My son is temperamentally very similar to his dad, and that's going to be a struggle for him, and for me. And I'm thankful I was able to get help from professionals starting at age 9 for him. It's helped. But I believe the most important therapy that kid gets is with me, and that's 100% because I'm committed to being emotionally healthy. Part of that process was breaking down all the way to the foundation. I'm not afraid of feeling the bad stuff anymore. Been there, done that, not that scary.

We can be mended. We mend each other.

That's a quote from Brene Brown.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2015, 01:17:18 PM »

My ex left in 2007. I never suspected anything like what happened and I was a mess. I found a therapist, after seeing three or four, that was a fit for me. I got my bearings straight and slowly things got better. Things continue to get better. 
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Eco
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« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2015, 06:09:44 PM »

Excerpt
I really really understand this! I thought I had a real nervous breakdown -- I even went to see a psychiatrist, an old-school type who still does talk therapy, not just the pill dispensing kind. He said what I was describing was a breakthrough, not a breakdown. For me, it happened in a similar way to what you described. I felt I could not fix things, that I was boxed in a corner and couldn't make it better. I cried like I've never cried, and felt like I had a sobbing hangover for days after.

I think it's the "leaning in" that people talk about. You lean into the most terrifying pain -- your own helplessness. For me, it was so connected to core childhood feelings. Chaos, no control, and feeling helpless.

I'm not a therapist, just a fellow traveler. I look back at that breakthrough as an important day in my recovery. I learned that I can go all the way down to the underworld and face my scariest demons, and come out the other side. I also learned that I'm enough. It was the beginning of learning to love myself.

All of this had a big impact on my relationship with my son. Someone who gave me multiple  Idea Idea Idea after I had this experience is Brene Brown. You can google her to see her TED talk on vulnerability, shame, etc. She wrote a book called Daring Greatly, and from there, I learned about her Parenting Manifesto. It's sort of about the same thing you're talking about -- giving yourself permission to be human, to love yourself in all your humanness.  Empathy This will help your D learn to do the same. She will see you feeling like eco, being eco, forgiving yourself and loving yourself, and she will think that's normal and copy you  grin 

It is true that we face some serious challenges when the other parent is mentally ill. It is not a life sentence for our kids, though. My son is temperamentally very similar to his dad, and that's going to be a struggle for him, and for me. And I'm thankful I was able to get help from professionals starting at age 9 for him. It's helped. But I believe the most important therapy that kid gets is with me, and that's 100% because I'm committed to being emotionally healthy. Part of that process was breaking down all the way to the foundation. I'm not afraid of feeling the bad stuff anymore. Been there, done that, not that scary.

We can be mended. We mend each other.

That's a quote from Brene Brown.  smiley

thanks for sharing that Lived and learned, Its nice to hear that someone understands and can relate Smiling (click to insert in post) I will have to check out brene brown.

when I was in that emotional state it was hard not to think I was the one with the disorder.

Excerpt
My ex left in 2007. I never suspected anything like what happened and I was a mess. I found a therapist, after seeing three or four, that was a fit for me. I got my bearings straight and slowly things got better. Things continue to get better

I was in counseling and it did help but I cant afford it right now but I plan on going back when im done with court 



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livednlearned
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 01:38:43 PM »

when I was in that emotional state it was hard not to think I was the one with the disorder.

It feels unsettling to lose emotional control, but it's ok to do so -- for me, it was even necessary. I needed to punch through a barrier I didn't even know was there.

It's very unlikely that you have BPD.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 05:03:55 PM »

The first three years were the toughest for me. It took me a long time to emotionally detach enough to not let ex affect me. The last year or two she hasn't been able to rattle me at all. We had court ordered co parent counseling recently. The counselor basically gave up. I think it was because ex was still fighting the same battles from 2007. I never once took the bait because it doesn't phase me anymore. She accused me of all the same bs from back then and had nothing new to complain about. It was a waste of time but it was court ordered.

It does get better. In fact, I honestly believe my relationship with our two boys is much better since ex left. It is so much easier to parent and have a normal relationship with them. When we were together ex always took charge since "she was the mom and moms know best".
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 07:26:49 PM »

Excerpt
It feels unsettling to lose emotional control, but it's ok to do so -- for me, it was even necessary. I needed to punch through a barrier I didn't even know was there.

It's very unlikely that you have BPD.  smiley

I think it was necessary for me as well.

Excerpt
The first three years were the toughest for me. It took me a long time to emotionally detach enough to not let ex affect me. The last year or two she hasn't been able to rattle me at all. We had court ordered co parent counseling recently. The counselor basically gave up. I think it was because ex was still fighting the same battles from 2007. I never once took the bait because it doesn't phase me anymore. She accused me of all the same bs from back then and had nothing new to complain about. It was a waste of time but it was court ordered.

It does get better. In fact, I honestly believe my relationship with our two boys is much better since ex left. It is so much easier to parent and have a normal relationship with them. When we were together ex always took charge since "she was the mom and moms know best".

I still have a bad habit of defending myself and trying to get my ex to see the facts and the truth. but as we all know on here its a waste of breath and all I do is keep the cycle going.

I tried really hard to keep things together with my ex only for my daughter but I know that it would have been a nightmare and I would never be able to have peace with my daughter and be her father. my ex always takes charge as well and has said " dads are only for play with the kids and that's it" other words according to her dads are only good for playtime and not actual parenting.

the main reason for going to court in the beginning was because I couldn't handle visitation with my daughter at my exs house because she would keep her thumb on me and make it miserable and many times  throw me out if I looked at her the wrong way.

its so much better now that I can be a dad without my ex around, no stress or anxiety from her or walking on eggshells Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #7 on: March 27, 2015, 09:42:25 AM »

Yea, I used to defend my thoughts and actions in the past. That was just pounding my head into a wall. Once I detached enough that stopped. Our recent co parent counseling ex tried to get me into that way of thinking. I could see it clearly and didn't get sucked in. I simply stated my beliefs and let it at that. I didn't try to explain it. Ex tried to fight about it and I simply said that we view things differently and that what ex does at her place is what ex does and what I do at my place is what I do. I agreed to disagree but was able to accept that her way was different. That helped the counselor see what was going on.

One of my big concerns is that ex rarely helps our boys with their school work and when she does it is usually incorrect. Our boys are in 10th and 5th grade. Our older son does things pretty much on his own now so that is not an issue. Our youngest still needs guidance. My method has always been , for the last three years, to check all his work that he does at his moms and have him do corrections when with me. I sign all his work that he does with me. Apparently that ticks ex off that I have him do corrections with work he does at his moms. Yesterday I picked the boys up at school for my day. I checked S11's math workbook. Ex wrote in red pen on the last 25 or 30 assignments and made her own corrections. It was minor things like when S11 wrote the answer as .4 she corrected it by writing 0.4 and put the zero in red. AS I am checking his book S11 comes over and tells me that mom bought the answer key to his workbook and spent $27.00. He said he told mom that his teacher put the answer guide on her website so she could have checked it all for free. I just listened as he explained how mom was upset. Anyway, there were two answers she changed. I read the problem again and sure enough her answer guide had two answers that were not correct. S11's answers were correct. I am a high school math teacher and all teachers edition textbooks have all the answers in them. I always check the answers because I do catch incorrect answers. It's not a big deal. It could just be a typo or a simple mistake. I realized ex sat at her place and went through 25 to 30 pages and followed the answer key without ever checking to see if they were right or not. If I email her to point it out then I would simply be engaging and triggering her. It is what it is and let it go. That took me years to "get".
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« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2015, 05:43:10 PM »

Excerpt
If I email her to point it out then I would simply be engaging and triggering her. It is what it is and let it go. That took me years to "get".

yep radical acceptance, im still working on that.
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« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2015, 07:25:11 PM »

Another thing that made a big difference. I stay focused on the boys and what I think is best for them. I don't denigrate their mom. Ex however tells them all kinds of lies. When they talk to me about it I will listen and sometimes ask questions to better understand what they are saying to me. I will correct things to them. Example, ex accused me of being an alcoholic years ago. I listened to what they said to me and asked them if they were concerned. They were 4.5 and 8 at the time. They did seem concerned so I asked them what an alcoholic was. I then simply asked them when they saw me drinking. I really don't drink much so it wasn't something that should have concerned them but ex put it in their heads. I turned it into a good parenting moment about alcohol abuse and how it isn't a positive thing in peoples lives. I also said that drinking is not a bad thing but it does need to be done in moderation. We had a good back and forth. The conversation relieved the boys.

Things like this happened on a regular basis when ex first left. She tried alienation tactics all the time. Eventually the boys figured her out. Her tactics actually backfired on her because they do not believe or trust her when she says things whether it is about me or something else. Ex is a nurse and when they get sick at her place they will call me to ask questions. That by itself speaks volumes.
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Eco
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« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2015, 10:37:51 PM »

Excerpt
Another thing that made a big difference. I stay focused on the boys and what I think is best for them. I don't denigrate their mom. Ex however tells them all kinds of lies. When they talk to me about it I will listen and sometimes ask questions to better understand what they are saying to me. I will correct things to them. Example, ex accused me of being an alcoholic years ago. I listened to what they said to me and asked them if they were concerned. They were 4.5 and 8 at the time. They did seem concerned so I asked them what an alcoholic was. I then simply asked them when they saw me drinking. I really don't drink much so it wasn't something that should have concerned them but ex put it in their heads. I turned it into a good parenting moment about alcohol abuse and how it isn't a positive thing in peoples lives. I also said that drinking is not a bad thing but it does need to be done in moderation. We had a good back and forth. The conversation relieved the boys.

Things like this happened on a regular basis when ex first left. She tried alienation tactics all the time. Eventually the boys figured her out. Her tactics actually backfired on her because they do not believe or trust her when she says things whether it is about me or something else. Ex is a nurse and when they get sick at her place they will call me to ask questions. That by itself speaks volumes.

that's one thing im very worried about, my ex is trying hard to alienate me and my family from my daughter. I will never forget the day after court when I started visitation away from my ex her 4 yr old daughter asked me " are you taking my sister away from us?" I tried to respond to her that I was just taking her sister for a little bit like your own daddy does when he picks you up. my ex interrupted me and said " yes he is taking her away from us!"

Its horrible that they use children as tools, that does say a lot that your kids ask you questions and not your ex.

I can only hope my daughter sees through the lies when she gets older and my exs tactics don't work. my ex already has my daughter so enmeshed so she influences quite a bit.

any advice that helped you with your kids against the alienation? I plan on getting the book divorce poison 
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« Reply #11 on: March 28, 2015, 05:05:37 AM »

That's a good book to help.

What I noticed is that ex was good at convincing the boys when they were younger. When our oldest was around ten I noticed a change in how he was handling the misinformation from his mom. That was when he stopped believing her every word. Our youngest did the same thing around the same time. I figured it was a maturity thing.

I believe the trust issue was the biggest thing that helped me with our boys. They knew they could talk to me and I wouldn't yell at them. I listened and validated. That made them comfortable to talk to me. Their mom taught them, by her actions and behaviors, to keep quiet.
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« Reply #12 on: March 28, 2015, 04:29:15 PM »

Three things helped me with parental alienation.

The first is validation, the second is the truth.  There is an article on validation and younger kids that might be helpful (apologies, I can't remember if I recommended this before). I also like the one on validating questions. You can find both of them here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272638.msg12585648#msg12585648

So something like:

"Mommy says you are going to kidnap me one day and never bring me back to her."

"That sounds scary. Do you feel sad when mommy tells you I won't bring you back?"

"Are you scared I would do that?"

"Why do you think mommy says that?"

"When I pick you up and we spend time together, do you worry I won't take you back to mommy?"

":)o you think mommy feels afraid when she isn't with you, and that makes her think bad things will happen?"

":)o you feel safe right now?"

"I am going to take you back to mommy's house after we get to visit and spend time together, just like I do every time."

Something like that. The instinct is to immediately say: "I would never do that." Or, "your mommy is just saying that to make you scared."

We have to slow down and take a deep breath, and recognize what our kids might be feeling when an adult in charge of their world says something frightening. We have to validate those feelings, and then give our kids a chance to develop the skills they need to work through them. We can do this with validating questions, and wind things up with the truth, right when the kids are ready to see it clearly.

Lesson 6 to the right ---------> has a bunch of material on parental alienation. And Lesson 5 has material on raising resilient kids, which is tied into helping them manage the parental alienation. There are also some age-appropriate books you can share with your D about having a parent like her mom.
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Eco
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« Reply #13 on: March 28, 2015, 06:35:41 PM »

Excerpt
Three things helped me with parental alienation.

The first is validation, the second is the truth.  There is an article on validation and younger kids that might be helpful (apologies, I can't remember if I recommended this before). I also like the one on validating questions. You can find both of them here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272638.msg12585648#msg12585648

So something like:

"Mommy says you are going to kidnap me one day and never bring me back to her."

"That sounds scary. Do you feel sad when mommy tells you I won't bring you back?"

"Are you scared I would do that?"

"Why do you think mommy says that?"

"When I pick you up and we spend time together, do you worry I won't take you back to mommy?"

":)o you think mommy feels afraid when she isn't with you, and that makes her think bad things will happen?"

":)o you feel safe right now?"

"I am going to take you back to mommy's house after we get to visit and spend time together, just like I do every time."

Something like that. The instinct is to immediately say: "I would never do that." Or, "your mommy is just saying that to make you scared."

We have to slow down and take a deep breath, and recognize what our kids might be feeling when an adult in charge of their world says something frightening. We have to validate those feelings, and then give our kids a chance to develop the skills they need to work through them. We can do this with validating questions, and wind things up with the truth, right when the kids are ready to see it clearly.

Lesson 6 to the right ---------> has a bunch of material on parental alienation. And Lesson 5 has material on raising resilient kids, which is tied into helping them manage the parental alienation. There are also some age-appropriate books you can share with your D about having a parent like her mom.

great suggestions, as my daughter is only 2 I can be well prepared to have these conversations when its time
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« Reply #14 on: March 28, 2015, 10:16:45 PM »

great suggestions, as my daughter is only 2 I can be well prepared to have these conversations when its time

Practice on people in your life, that's what I've tried to do. Validation is sort of easy, and also complex at the same time. Sometimes I would do it with S13, and it would be going great, and then suddenly I'd end up in the weeds and have no clue how I got there. I had to work with my therapist, literally writing down conversations I had with S13 and then going over them with my T.

My problem is pretty common with people here, I think. I wanted to be right. You can feel it when it's happening, it's like "glee" or something. Your child opens up about feelings something negative toward the other parent, and it feels like a big invitation to come in and celebrate the truth. With my son, it was like his soul got a tiny bit crushed when that happened, and when it kept happening, he started to shut down about things he really needed to talk about.

That's why it's important to resolve your own feelings with your ex, so you don't end up trying to do that with your D.

The good news is that if you do cross the line, and feel bad about it, you can have a do-over. So says my T  Being cool (click to insert in post) Sometimes I'll tell S13 that I was thinking about our conversation, and didn't feel good about my part. I try to own what was going on.

You'll be a pro at this by the time your D is a teen.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #15 on: March 28, 2015, 11:43:23 PM »

Excerpt
Sometimes I would do it with S13, and it would be going great, and then suddenly I'd end up in the weeds and have no clue how I got there

I know that feeling , that would happen with my ex when I tried to validate her.

Excerpt
That's why it's important to resolve your own feelings with your ex, so you don't end up trying to do that with your D.

that's my goal, I have lots of resentment towards my ex right now.

Excerpt
The good news is that if you do cross the line, and feel bad about it, you can have a do-over. So says my T  cool Sometimes I'll tell S13 that I was thinking about our conversation, and didn't feel good about my part. I try to own what was going on.

You'll be a pro at this by the time your D is a teen.

I do that with my 11 year old son, whenever I feel that I didn't handle things right with him I go back to him and let him know and try to make it right. I think it lets him know that im human too and make mistakes and whats important is how you handle mistakes.
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