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Author Topic: being called selfish, with no empathy...  (Read 477 times)
rise_up
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« on: March 24, 2015, 05:40:25 AM »

im feeling fairly lost this morning. my SOwBPD and i had a wonderful weekend with a spontaneous vacation. we started the week off really well. yesterday night, we had dinner and had said we would spend time together on our deck for the evening. My SO fell asleep on the couch for a while-- i let her do that and then gently asked if she would like to go straight to bed. she sleepily shook her head and just continued to doze on the couch. i grabbed a blanket and put it over her and said i would be outside on our deck. i go to the restroom and suddenly she is awake and up and about.

i asked if she was ok and she said, well you woke me up... .

after i said i was sorry... .she began her tirade. she was obviously irritated and began saying that i deliberately put the blanket over her to wake her up. my mind begins to go haywire. how on earth could that mean i wanted her to wake up? my intentions were to simply make her more comfortable. i apologized and told her what that was meant for and in no way intended to wake her up. she was not hearing any of it.

"why would you think putting a blanket on me when it was already hot would make anything better? dont you read the thermostat?" she kept piling it on and i was taken completely off guard. i held strong to my opinion that i had done nothing wrong... .but that made things totally worse.

the next 2 hours were filled with my silence and her piling things on and coloring my character black-

"you just dont get it. and now you're silent. you dont even understand. you have no empathy and im left here dealing with emotions on my own when it was your fault. i dont care if you didnt mean it... .you do nothing with the emotions you are faced with from me"

now i'm in total FOG and i dont understand what to do except apologize and try to validate.

we went to bed and she said i love you and i said im sorry i hurt her. things calmed down and we went to bed. she woke up this morning and asked me if i could wake up and spend some time with her. i had no problem with that, so i forced myself to wake up and made her coffee and breakfast. i didnt say anything about the night before... .i guess i was still processing.

she starts again: you still dont get it. i asked you to spend time with me and you show me no emotion. all you do is make coffee and something to eat. no affection. nothing. you have no empathy for me. i try to show you in so many different ways what i need and yet you do nothing. it does no good for you to sit there and just think... .that is such a selfish way to act... .and now im left here alone again to pick myself up when that was YOUR job. i dont care what you think about, i care about what actions you take."

i fall into silence again and she pounced on it again. i started getting upset and crying because i felt paralyzed. she left the house after hugging me and said "one of these days it would be nice if i could cry instead of you... .youre just crying because you're thinking about yourself again."

im at a loss. i feel like i do have empathy and im not a selfish person... .but it does go out of the window when im faced with a lot of criticism. i don't know how to overcome this... .im guessing it has to do with validation... .but im just lost about what to do about it. i just feel a little hopeless with the way that i am wired.


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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 09:58:12 AM »

Oh, rise up, I am sorry. That had to hurt. In a moment of tenderness, getting a blanket for your partner, you get rebuked, blamed and basically all of that tenderness is dashed to pieces. No, this is not your fault. Her response was about her feelings in the moment, and try as hard as you and she both want to, that is not going to change ... .ever.

It is really hard not to JADE in situations like this. My MC has stated that when you are attacked, it is natural human response to defend yourself. I am learning to not see fault in me when I do respond that way, even knowing it may make things worse. Sometimes, in front of my uBPDw, I will speak aloud "No. I am not going to justify myself or argue. It's only going to make things worse." What I am saying is that I remind myself or coach myself, and if she has a problem with that, with me not dealing with her feelings in that moment, too bad. I need to take care of myself first before I can help her.

And I guess that is all I can really say to you this morning. Take care of yourself first. This isn't about empathy, mind reading, lack of affection, selfishness. That is all projection and FOG. Only you know the feelings that were in your heart when you placed a blanket on your SO or made breakfast for her or even were willing to force yourself awake and to be with her after she had attacked you the night before. You know what your intent was. To an impartial observer, it would likely be taken as kindness and love. But when you are attacked, the only thing that you can do is take care of yourself first. She is going through something. It probably has little to do with what she is reacting to. When you have soothed yourself and taken care of your needs, you can try to go back to her and ask questions. "When you were upset at me placing the blanket on you, what were you feeling? Is something bothering you that you want to talk about?" If her response directs anywhere but within herself, you can validate her feeling (not her words if they are blaming you) and then express a boundary. This isn't about inviting self abuse. This is attempting a repair but having clear, consisten boundaries to take care of yourself first.

Does any of this resonate for you? What can you do for yourself right now? I feel for you. And I have been there so many times, too. I am sorry that you are going through this. 
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 10:15:58 AM »

Hello, Rise_up, I am so sorry /hug

I know it hurts that you tried to do something nice and got your hand bit off instead. It's happened to me too  First of, it's not your fault. Ok? From what I am reading, I would guess she was already upset about something else, and the blanket was an excuse to start the tirade.

My dBPDh will also argue like this sometimes, and it's hard for me to understand what his complaint is and it takes me a bit to 'get' what he's trying to say. Often times, it's my word choices that will cause a problem, because he is having a hard time getting MY message. The trick is in learning how to communicate with them in a way they can understand our message, and not interpret wrong when it goes through the BPD filter.

Apologizing is not the same as validating, particularly if you are saying it over and over just to try to calm them down. It's deeper than that... .you have to really listen and that can be tiring... .particularly if you really don't give a fig at the time. Also, any time we get upset and cry, it usually upsets them more. They know they are to blame, then they feel shame and get mad and blahblahblah... .it always feels like we don't have a right to be upset. /sigh

What takingandsending suggested was great, ask her how she felt when the blanket was on her. I get the sense you were JADEing, and as much as it sucks... .that's always going to make it worse.

She got upset in the morning because she asked you to spend time with her, and her idea of that was not you getting up and making breakfast. I would suggest asking "I would love to spend time with you. How would you like to do that?" and go from there.

Hang in there, hun! There's a big ol learning curve to this!

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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 10:33:29 AM »

My SO fell asleep on the couch for a while-- i let her do that and then gently asked if she would like to go straight to bed. she sleepily shook her head and just continued to doze on the couch. i grabbed a blanket and put it over her and said i would be outside on our deck. i go to the restroom and suddenly she is awake and up and about.

i asked if she was ok and she said, well you woke me up... .

after i said i was sorry... .she began her tirade. she was obviously irritated and began saying that i deliberately put the blanket over her to wake her up. my mind begins to go haywire. how on earth could that mean i wanted her to wake up? my intentions were to simply make her more comfortable. i apologized and told her what that was meant for and in no way intended to wake her up. she was not hearing any of it.

"why would you think putting a blanket on me when it was already hot would make anything better? dont you read the thermostat?" she kept piling it on and i was taken completely off guard. i held strong to my opinion that i had done nothing wrong... .but that made things totally worse.

Just read your thread so I know I'm a little late.  This hit home as I went through something similar about a year ago and boy is it ridiculous... .I questioned my own sanity after  Smiling (click to insert in post).  My wife wanted to go somewhere with me that afternoon and she laid down and fell asleep on the bed.  I let her sleep and after a while put a blanket on her and put a glass of water on her bedside table (been asleep about 2 hours).  I think I scared her or something and at first I apologized and she said it was ok.  When she "came to", boy did I get it... .She asked me, "Why in the world would you get me a glass of water knowing I was asleep?  Why in the HELL would I need water when I'm asleep?  You did it purposefully to wake me up to go do WHAT YOU WANT.  You can't stand that I was asleep and HAD to wake me up."  I was thinking, "UMMM, werent you just doing what you wanted?  She also always wakes up thirsty.  Out of being "backed in a corner" I began to JADE.  I realize now why she reacted they way she did.  She was projecting her guilt on to me for falling asleep.  She knew we had to be somewhere and felt bad.  I was not worried about getting there as we could have gone another day.  She feels like taking naps are useless and not a good use of time and instead of saying she was sorry that she fell asleep so long, well, we know about pwBPD and apologies.  I would have just said, "It's okay honey we can go another time.
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 12:24:12 PM »

I've had so many of these paralyzing kinds of interactions with my uBPso, often triggered by innocent and thoughtful actions such as your kind gesture. I can relate to what you must have been going through. I often fall into silence and sometimes end up crying when the attack exceeds my ability to keep absorbing all that criticism. Tears, or any display of my own suffering, usually makes matters worse, especially during these already heated interactions.

i apologized and told her what that was meant for and in no way intended to wake her up. she was not hearing any of it.

"you just dont get it. and now you're silent. you dont even understand. you have no empathy and im left here dealing with emotions on my own when it was your fault. i dont care if you didnt mean it... .you do nothing with the emotions you are faced with from me"

A concept I've been trying out in similar situations with my uPBso is Intent versus Impact. The idea is to assume we all have good intentions. You had very good intentions when you covered your dozing SO. Of course we want to defend our good intentions when we feel they are attacked. However, Whoa! That was in no way my intention! can be an invalidating thing for anyone to hear when they're upset, esp. a pwBP.

I try very hard not to defend my intentions and instead look for feelings to validate (so far, my validation skills are far from stellar, sadly) or at the very least, to acknowledge how my actions may impact my SO (with no mention of my good intentions).

sidenote: Life would be so much easier if our pwBP could recognize their Intent versus their Impact, but I think many of them lack the ability to do that, esp. when they are feeling their painful feelings. I do think many nons may have more of an ability to empathize and recognize the impact of their actions (despite their best intentions!). It may seem unfair, but it may be worthwhile to try out.
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 12:27:53 PM »

 i held strong to my opinion that i had done nothing wrong... .but that made things totally worse.

rise_up,

I don't think I've read any of your threads  before... .I'm glad to finally "meet" you.  

I think the part of your story that I quoted above is the key thing I would like you to examine.  

I'm glad you talked about trying to validate... .that is a key concept.  

So... ready for the "test".  Reading the lessons again is acceptable!  

The highlighted area from your story that I quoted... .did what (    fill in the blank) to her.

This concept I hope we get to here is central to "how to deal" with BPD traits.

2nd thing.  I predict good things for you once you really learn the tools... . 

Why?  

Because you have a partner that seems to be comfortable admitting she has troubling emotions... .and is ok talking about those... .rather than projecting her emotions onto you.

Now... granted... .it seems she is projecting "responsibility" for those emotions onto you... .but... we'll handle that later.

Thanks for this post... .I think it is a great one for many to pay attention to as we work through a critical concept... .which is the answer you are looking for.

ff
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 01:16:52 PM »

Hey ff,

Because you have a partner that seems to be comfortable admitting she has troubling emotions... .and is ok talking about those... .rather than projecting her emotions onto you.

You asked some good questions, but I don't see this one statement the same as you do. She admitted having to deal with her emotions and was resentful that rise_up was leaving her to deal with them. I don't equate that to be "ok talking about" them. In fact, if rise_up tries the repair that I mentioned, she may well not be ok talking about them. She may have little ability to talk about them since they were chain reacting so rapidly. And that's not something he can resolve.
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 01:48:19 PM »



That is certainly a possibility

Some of this comes from my r/s... .where there was a denial of emotion.  She would claim I was the emotional one and she wasn't feeling anything.

Basically... I see acknowledgement that she has emotions that are troubling her... .

So... we're past that... .the question becomes what to do about it after that... . 
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 01:49:32 PM »

 

I should have said... .ok "acknowledging" them... .

ff
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 03:50:03 PM »

S'okay. I am just imposing my own experience with my wife rather than being as supportive as you were. I have actually gone back to investigate after a blow up, trying to see if I could better understand she was feeling v. what she was venting about. My experience has been that my wife usually doesn't want to talk about it or doesn't really remember what she was feeling. That's the tough part. The feelings are so strong, so fast and so sudden that the pwBPD really isn't all that connected to them after the panic reaction has played out. It makes it hard to get home. My MC has spent a whole hour and a half gently asking questions to get to the root of something bothering her. I am not that skilled, or even that  willing to put in that effort. But it's worth it to keep asking, provided you come equipped with boundaries.
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 05:11:41 PM »

 totally curious... .what took and hour and a half to open up about?
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2015, 05:46:07 PM »

You know, I don't really even remember. It was convoluted - something about how my wife felt fearful of her relationship with my S9 when I expressed disappointment about not taking him out skiing.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

I don't want to hijack the thread. Your questions were good, advice good. What do you think, rise_up? What can you do for yourself to stop the bleeding and then possibly what can you do to return to your SO?
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« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2015, 06:36:51 AM »

thank you everybody for your thoughts, your truths and encouragement.

this forum is one of the only platforms where i can feel sane in the middle of insanity sometimes. i have posted off and on for 3 years not only about my current SO, but my mother and my ex gfwBPD.

all of your words certainly resonated with me- especially the JADE ing. I went back and read through its definition and consequences when communicating with a pwBPD.

i realized that i am an extremely logical thinker. this trait doesn't do much for me in the face of conflict with a pwBPD. my SO and i essentially begin speaking two different languages in two different wavelengths and that is probably why she didnt feel heard and shoveled more at me because she wasnt getting what she wanted.

i held very strongly to my intentions and played the 'defense lawyer'... .while true to me- did not help things very much due to my SO feeling more invalidated. i realized that i need to ask myself what i really want, to be right or to resolve the conflict.


her cunning manipulative side comes out when she falls into the spiral of dysregulation. one of my boundaries is that if she yells, slams doors/cabinets- i get very triggered and leave the house for 15-20 mins no more no less.  lately in her rages, she says hurtful toxic things to me but whispers in a creepy way... .and says 'see im not allowed to yell... .im not yelling im not yelling im not yelling"... .and continues chanting that at least 20 times. its actually a little scary to witness... .and also unbelievably juvenile... .

my SO is a very insightful person when she is calm. after explosive rages, she takes a lot of ownership of her in appropriate expression of negative emotions. she even asks me- did i cross the line? she isnt capable of that in the moment. when she has crossed the line, i tell her truthfully and she listens intently. in the past, she would rage at me for bad things that happened to her at work. she has done very well with controlling her urge to use me as a punching bag. now the work is focused on dealing with issues between her and i.

thank you all again for all of your words and sharing your experiences. my work is to fight the JADEing.

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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 11:06:11 AM »

I might also suggest something similar to what ColdEthyl said. Ask her how she would have liked you to deal with it.

"I wanted to show my love for you by making sure you were comfortable, but it appears my actions didn't have the right effect. What would you like me to do in the future?" You will get a little more rage, then you say "I understand." They wind down pretty quickly after that. I have said before, I have to use about four times as many words with a pwBPD than I do with a non.

As to the spending time with her, I kind of get where she was coming from. She didn't ask for breakfast, she asked for time. I also get that spending quality time with someone who raged at you the night before is rather difficult.  But what I saw there (it so easy when you are on the outside looking in... .) was that she felt bad for raging at you, didn't know how to handle it, and wanted to know that you still loved her. For you, making breakfast was love. For her, a hug and "What would you like to do with our time?" might have been more what she wanted.

Maybe if you listen to her exact words, and try not to fill in your interpretation. If there is any room for interpretation, ask. "I'd love to spend some time with you. Would you like me to make you breakfast or did you have another idea?"
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« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2015, 11:08:43 AM »

i realized that i am an extremely logical thinker. this trait doesn't do much for me in the face of conflict with a pwBPD. my SO and i essentially begin speaking two different languages in two different wavelengths and that is probably why she didnt feel heard and shoveled more at me because she wasnt getting what she wanted.

I am also a logical thinker, and I struggled with this in the beginning. I still do from time to time. I catch myself falling into a JADE pattern because... .darn it all he isn't making sense! But, it's getting easier and easier with practice to not JADE, or if I do I catch it quicker and change my language. Your assessment is true, that's what happens Smiling (click to insert in post)

Excerpt
lately in her rages, she says hurtful toxic things to me but whispers in a creepy way... .and says 'see im not allowed to yell... .im not yelling im not yelling im not yelling"... .and continues chanting that at least 20 times. its actually a little scary to witness... .and also unbelievably juvenile... .

I experience this as well. My H doesn't do a creepy whisper, but he will repeat himself over and over... .pace, throw things... .his voice gets shrill. When he's dysregulating and his anxiety gets that high, it's usually because I tried to JADE instead of letting him finish his thought... .regardless of how wrong I think it is. I imagine her creepy whisper is designed to do just that... .creep you out.
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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2015, 11:11:51 AM »

Maybe if you listen to her exact words, and try not to fill in your interpretation. If there is any room for interpretation, ask. "I'd love to spend some time with you. Would you like me to make you breakfast or did you have another idea?"

I have to echo this, because it's a thing I do myself. I assume what he means, and often I am wrong. To me, it seems like the logical interpretation, but he thinks differently than me. So, I am practicing asking what he means, or saying something like "You said X, and I think you mean X, is that what you mean?"
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2015, 11:42:23 AM »

I understand on an intellectual level what you mean by just listening and asking and not filling in my interpretations. It's very true that she was feeling bad and was probably expecting more actions that translates to "I love you and it's okay"... .it's also true that my heart was hurting deeply from the rage the night before so I automatically protected myself by engaging in a rather mindless action of making breakfast. I'm seeing how, as a non, I do a lot of self protection that ultimately hurts her. I feel torn.

Where I also stumble with asking my SO what she has in mind is that she becomes increasingly irritated when I ask... .replying me "I'm not going to provide you with a roadmap... .that's your job... .I'm not your parent or your teacher... ." She actually gets very disgusted at that point. I resort to dangerous mind reading... .which she also hates. We had a really intense conversation a while ago about mind reading and how much I hate it. She agreed but also said there are "baseline foundational" things that I just need to know and that she refuses to communicate because that undermines our partnership.
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2015, 11:57:26 AM »

*nods* Sometimes my H expects me to be a mind reader, too. He will get irritated in the same fashion. I have told him I do not always understand what he needs, and I am asking because I care and I want to hear his message correctly. Using the phrase "help me understand" like Formflier has suggested seems to work pretty well. Phrasing to them is everything. Also, we have to be careful to not have irritation or hurt in our voice... .they are very observant and will pick up on it.

Rise_up, have you read the article on here about radical acceptance?
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2015, 12:14:19 PM »

Language and delivery really matters... .and what works for you... might not for some others.  Most find "help me understand... ." and easy... gentle way to ask... .instead of "why"... .which sounds like a courtroom lawyer.  "Why are you so emotional... ?"  "Help me understand what emotion you are feeling/experiencing right now... "



 i realized that i need to ask myself what i really want, to be right or to resolve the conflict.

Can I suggest neither of this are correct.  Most likely... .the conflict is in her mind... .with her emotions... and doesn't involve you... .let me repeat... .doesn't involve you  even though she may claim its your fault.  

So... validate her hurt (not agree)... .and then exit the scene.  Over time... .they will figure it out.  If they respond well to validation... stick around and keep trying.  However... that is usually a more advanced skill.  Early on when you are still "stopping the bleeding"... .validate and leave (letting them know you will check back in 10 minutes... .or some timeframe like that... .is usually best)


her cunning manipulative side comes out when she falls into the spiral of dysregulation. one of my boundaries is that if she yells, slams doors/cabinets- i get very triggered and leave the house for 15-20 mins no more no less.  lately in her rages, she says hurtful toxic things to me but whispers in a creepy way... .and says 'see im not allowed to yell... .im not yelling im not yelling im not yelling"... .and continues chanting that at least 20 times. its actually a little scary to witness... .and also unbelievably juvenile... .

Again... language matters.  Many have had arguments about what is "yelling".  I'm a fan of "I'll come back in 10 minutes and hopefully we can "talk properly" about this... "  Respectfully also works... .

 she takes a lot of ownership of her in appropriate expression of negative emotions. she even asks me- did i cross the line?

This is great... .many wish they could get to this point.  :)oes she do any counseling... ?  (sorry if you have already said and I forgot... )

she isnt capable of that in the moment.

Very insightful of you... .and most likely very true.  So... .back to my advice of exit the scene.  She is not capable of behaving properly... .leave her to herself... .(with a timeframe so as not to trigger abandonment)... .and leave.


thank you all again for all of your words and sharing your experiences. my work is to fight the JADEing.

Jadeing is so "natural".  If you really feel an explanation is needed... .think first... .then give a nice even delivery... .say it once... .and that is it.  Usually... .it's not the jade... .but the repetitive nature of it.
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2015, 03:05:05 PM »

Hi rise_up.

Formflier is on the money in his comments. I think it is a terrific sign that your SO asks you after a dysregulation whether or not she crossed the line. That is something I wish my wife would do - I am not certain that she has ever asked me that, although she has done the "pull" of push/pull when she sees that she has pushed me dangerously close to leaving ... .not so much now that we have kids because she needn't worry as much about me leaving.

Because most of us are co-dependent in some way to even be in these relationships, this one is really important to stress:

Most likely... .the conflict is in her mind... .with her emotions... and doesn't involve you... .let me repeat... .doesn't involve you  even though she may claim its your fault. 

So... validate her hurt (not agree)... .and then exit the scene.  Over time... .they will figure it out.  If they respond well to validation... stick around and keep trying.  However... that is usually a more advanced skill.  Early on when you are still "stopping the bleeding"... .validate and leave (letting them know you will check back in 10 minutes... .or some timeframe like that... .is usually best)

This has made a lot of difference in restoring peace in me and my wife. While we aren't quite getting to good validation for either of us, at least I am not feeling torched so regularly by her, and she is beginning to regulate her blow ups a little better (she is sort of in T, which is helping). Brief validation of feelings and boundaries has been critical.

Thinking on your SO's spooky whispering, she is actually, in a very maladaptive way, trying to regulate her chain reacted emotions to a request you may have made ... ."don't yell at me". My wife also tries to sidestep acceptance of her rage by using sarcasm and really inciting language while not raising her voice ... .but she usually resorts to raising her voice if I don't take the bait. Anyway, it is sadly juvenile. Big thing is, don't take the bait, and when you find your own temperature is elevating, give the short "I see you are feeling angry/upset. You are important to me, and I'd like to talk to you about this, but I need to step away for 15 minutes to cool off myself."

Lastly, there is real value to knowing each other's emotional maps. It really helps couples to navigate those areas that are difficult for one or both partners.

She agreed but also said there are "baseline foundational" things that I just need to know and that she refuses to communicate because that undermines our partnership.

So part of what she asks for here is valid - the part that there are things that you need to know to help navigate those areas where she has hurts. But, there is also a lot of invalid parts of her statement that you are not responsible for - namely knowing these things through pure observation, psychic ability or super-empathetic prowess. Communication never undermines partnership - it is the foundation of partnership. Her views are possibly the system that worked in her house where she grew up ... .you were just sort of expected to know or read people's needs and emotions. I actually understand this "logic" because I grew up in a similar household, which is why I probably I sought it out again as an adult, seemingly can't get enough of it.

My wife also has expressed these things to me, but I am finding, with MC, that she is at least slightly more understanding that the process of learning an emotional map really involves asking questions. I now am accused of not asking questions or having an interest. This migration from not knowing what I should know by now to not being interested to ask enough questions to know is progress, I guess ... .glacial progress. For now, my personal goal is to somehow keep some level of inquiry and receptivity open within myself, despite generally getting stonewalled when I do ask questions. My experience is that this is a lot of work, so I think you have to have liberal doses of self-love/self-care sprinkled in to make it over the long haul.

Wishing you much luck. Keep refining your understanding. Keep posting. We are all rooting for you both. 
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formflier
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Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: Married
Posts: 19076



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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2015, 03:51:11 PM »

  I think it is a terrific sign that your SO asks you after a dysregulation whether or not she crossed the line. 

Something for discussion.

It might be good to thank her for asking... .and use the time to validate her feelings... .and her hard work... .rather than complain about stuff... .even though she asked.

Maybe use SET format... .and for the T part... .mention one thing she can do better (maybe).

You want her to keep asking.

Remember... .it's about her feelings.  BPD is all about that.

So... .directly mentioning things she can do better... .might go ok... or could go bad... .you have to tread carefully here.

The goal is for her to feel better... .and then she will most likely act better.

We "logical" types usually get that backwards.  We feel if we explain their misbehavior... .and the act right... .that they will feel right... .  Because that is what most nons do

Bpd works the other way... .

Feel better... .then... .most likely... act better.  Or... .be in a clearer mind to make better choices.

Thoughts on the different ways of looking at it?
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