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Skills we were never taught
98
A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
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Setting Boundaries
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Author Topic: Middle school science and BPD  (Read 477 times)
takingandsending
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« on: March 24, 2015, 09:40:05 AM »

My uBPDw and I attended a lecture at our S9's school about middle school science. The presenter described some ways of sparking children's interest in science, in the natural world around them. She noted that children at that age have to be taught to observe phenomenon precisely and accurately - that it required learning some detachment from what they feel is happening versus really formulating and coming to conclusion of what is happening when they see the results of an experiment over and over.

My uBPDw expressed that, surely, feeling must come into science somewhere. The presenter responded that to teach objectivity, the feelings must take a back seat to allow for just simply observing things as they appear, not as you want them to appear or wish they would appear. This exchange led me to see the pervasiveness of how feelings = facts for a person living with BPD, and why objectivity is something not that is easily accessible for pwBPD. The presenter did go on to say that at a later stage, morals and ethics do enter into science, but at this early stage, learning how to observe is most important.

Anybody have any thoughts on there on this? Does it fit the pwBPD in your life? I am trying to observer my wife's behavior with more detachment and less feeling, and it helps some times ... .and it doesn't help so much other times. I am interested in what folks here think. Is it possible that the pwBPD never moved outside of experiencing the world around them through feeling, never learned the tools of basic observation?    This would explain a lot of the magical thinking that my wife engages in.
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« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2015, 09:44:45 AM »

That is exactly what the core of BPD is... .that feelings=facts.  Even if the facts have to be "bent" to fit the feelings, which is so often what I see described on these boards and with my husband.  It's my understanding that BPD is created from an invalidating childhood, leaving the person stuck in their childhood emotional development.  A 2 year old BELIEVES he/she hates you when you don't give into a tantrum (for the duration of the tantrum at least) and from what I've seen, a pwBPD also believes that the venom they spew in a dysregulation is the truth. 
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ColdEthyl
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« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2015, 09:51:07 AM »

I've recently been dealing a lot more with my dBPDh's mother and I will tell you, she is highly passive/aggressive. I imagine living in that environment with someone who manipulates using feelings as her sword and shield has warped his thinking, leading of course to feelings=fact.

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takingandsending
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« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2015, 10:10:58 AM »

I guess, for me, I can sort of understand feelings = facts for pwBPD, but I still get stuck on how that actually presents in the world. The loss of ability to observe with objectivity is a critical part of functioning in the world. A lot of people, me included, are more aware of my own feelings and place a higher value on them than, say, my neighbor's feelings. He lives in Taiwan much of the year, so his feelings simply don't mean so much to me. It's human nature to see the feelings that we have as having much more bearing on our decisions, our beliefs, etc. than the feelings of others.

But, there is this little piece of awareness, this little objective observer within us all that has the capacity to see outside of our own feelings, to recognize that others are having their own feelings, and that they may be different. We may or may not like that others have different feelings from us, but we can perceive it with some objectivity. It is amazing to me to think that pwBPD have a hard time coming by that. Imagine how crippling that would be! I pray some day there will be advances in treatment and understanding the causes of this illness. It robs a person of the most basic thought processes. My wife isn't a bad person. But she has a frightening capacity to act in very bad ways without understanding, recognition or self awareness. We all have that capacity, but are less inclined to act so because we have some self awareness.

I don't know. Sometimes, it really sparks a lot of compassion in me. Other times, I wish I had never met her.
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ColdEthyl
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« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2015, 10:22:41 AM »

I don't know. Sometimes, it really sparks a lot of compassion in me. Other times, I wish I had never met her.

I feel like that too, sometimes. We become caregivers more often than we should. I think the part you might be getting hung up on is that yes... .pwBPD do  know that other people have feelings, but if someone's feelings are different than the pwBPD, they think there is something wrong with THEIR feelings, thus going into the shame cycle. They compare themselves to everyone and always end up lacking, at least in their view. Self-loathing and shame are also key players.
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enlighten me
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« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2015, 11:06:16 AM »

Ive not thought of this topic like this before. I was aware of feelings = facts but have never thought that they do not or are not abale to view things without objectivity.

we are all guity of jumping to conclussions at times and im sure we have been caught out by doing this. But the majority of the time we can be objective.

Imagine every interaction we have being influenced by how we are feeling at the time.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2015, 12:55:57 PM »

Hi enlighten me.

That's kind of my reaction as well. The world would be pretty terrifying to me if all I had as my compass were my immediate feelings without tempering it with some ability to step back and reason. Like ColdEthyl says, pwBPD do have some ability to see/sense other's views - it's just impaired through reflection back on their own fears about what they are thinking. Still, that limited objectivity would be kind of awful.
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ColdEthyl
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« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2015, 01:00:31 PM »

Hi enlighten me.

That's kind of my reaction as well. The world would be pretty terrifying to me if all I had as my compass were my immediate feelings without tempering it with some ability to step back and reason. Like ColdEthyl says, pwBPD do have some ability to see/sense other's views - it's just impaired through reflection back on their own fears about what they are thinking. Still, that limited objectivity would be kind of awful.

I imagine it sucks very much to be them. They are not even sure what they think is 'real' or 'accurate'.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2015, 01:11:42 PM »

My H is a whiz at science and being factual. However, when it comes to me, it seems his decisions and reactions are mostly based on how he feels. He would ace a physics class. If he is looking to purchase something, like a vehicle, he will research the best one, prices, where to get one.

However, in the face of an impending storm, and family telling him to cut a visit short so he isn't stuck driving in it, he will accuse me of being rude to his family because I want to leave. The fact that I don't want to be stuck on the road in a storm, and that I am not rude to his family is not considered, because somehow he *knows* that I am being rude.

When I said there was a leak in the basement, he said there was not, despite all evidence that there was. It just got worse so I called the plumber. However, when he discovers something that needs to be done, he would call the plumber.

When my dryer wasn't working, he insisted it was, and then said it was because I didn't clean the lint filter, however I do clean it. This time, I smiled and then called the repair man. ( it was broken).

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ColdEthyl
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« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2015, 01:20:39 PM »

Hi enlighten me.

That's kind of my reaction as well. The world would be pretty terrifying to me if all I had as my compass were my immediate feelings without tempering it with some ability to step back and reason. Like ColdEthyl says, pwBPD do have some ability to see/sense other's views - it's just impaired through reflection back on their own fears about what they are thinking. Still, that limited objectivity would be kind of awful.

I imagine it sucks very much to be them. They are not even sure what they think emotionally is 'real' or 'accurate'.

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takingandsending
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« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2015, 01:23:11 PM »

Notwendy,

BPD always shows up most strongly in interpersonal relations, so it's clear that some level of objective reason can be employed. But the impairment increases during emotional interaction with people close to us. That's true for everyone, and again, heightened for pwBPD. Your husband may not employ the magical thinking that other pwBPD can do. I have seen a lot of posts here with SO's like mine, who really do equate feelings as the basis for physical science.
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Notwendy
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« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2015, 01:38:20 PM »

I agree takingandsending. I think I have seen both ends of the spectrum. My mother is quite severe- elderly, raised in an era where BPD and mental health wasn't even discussed so I don't think she had any intervention when she was younger. She does make things up based on emotions and has the magical thinking. I think what confused me about my H for so long was that he didn't do it to the degree she does, and so, it was easy for me to buy into his accusations and also his wishes. If he accused me of something, I considered it, since he is so logical in other settings. I let the basement get really bad because, I assumed he had some reason to not believe me.

Since it is his most intimate r/s that results in the worst BPD behavior, it is me, and only me who witnesses it. This is in many ways, a blessing. However, it makes it isolating as well, as others do not see it. My H keeps most people on a non personal basis, and so most people are not as close to him as I am. I am the only person my H is close to, and even so, he is guarded.
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enlighten me
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« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2015, 02:09:40 PM »

It goes a long way to explain some of the interactions I had with my exgf. Depending on how she was feeling would determine the outcome of any conversations. It explaina why one day she would be dead against something and the next day in favour of it.
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bluejeans
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« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2015, 09:02:13 AM »

I have spent far too much time trying to bring my partner back to the facts about something so that I could help her feel better. To no avail. She wants to or can only feel what she feels.  Even though she is in AA where I believe they say "feelings aren't facts".
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