naive question about helping my SO

[calmhope]

For obviously reasons there is a lot of discussion here about the interactions between pwBPD and their SOs. I have no shortage of those interactions myself

I'm wondering, though, about my high-functioning uBPso's relationships with others … friends, colleagues, family, etc.

Are there ways that you have had some degree of success—I'm struggling to find the right wording—helping(?), influencing(?), supporting(?) more stable relationships between your pwBPD and others?

I don't like the idea of meddling, but I'd love to help in any way with what I see as a painful lifelong pattern of people in his life being "painted black" and/or simply rejecting him because he can be difficult. Often those soured relations spill over into my relationships and I feel increasingly isolated when I can't salvage a friendship or find myself caught in the middle. Is it best to just continue not getting attached to people? Just accept that he will regularly have soured relationships and I may be affected?

Ideally I'd love to encourage him to try T, esp. DBT, but that may never really come to fruition.

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[takingandsending]

Calm hope,

I think you have to choose to be responsible for making and maintaining the friendships that are of value to you. Your SO is doing the best he can, but you have seen his pattern and can guess at what will happen. I have watched my wife do the same over and over, and now we have very few friends. I decided to let the friends that I valued know about her illness, that she may appear overly needy, feel rejected easily but she's doing the best she can. I let them know I value their presence in my life and my kids' lives. I think it has helped overall. Hopefully her friends will have a little more tolerance and patience, and I continue to broaden my own network of support (very slowly). There's no more thought that I can stay in this RS on my own. I need help to work through the hard stuff. I hope this helps.

[calmhope]

I decided to let the friends that I valued know about her illness, that she may appear overly needy, feel rejected easily but she's doing the best she can. I let them know I value their presence in my life and my kids' lives. I think it has helped overall. Hopefully her friends will have a little more tolerance and patience, and I continue to broaden my own network of support (very slowly). There's no more thought that I can stay in this RS on my own. I need help to work through the hard stuff. I hope this helps.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, takingandsending. I think I need to start considering this approach too. My first response to the idea is that it could feel disingenuous in my case, esp. since there is no official diagnosis and since I have not told my SO directly that I believe he suffers from BPD. But perhaps the benefits could outweigh my discomfort. Most people who know me know I am goodhearted and fair and that I refrain from gossip … hopefully my intentions wouldn't be perceived any other way.

[takingandsending]

My wife is not officially diagnosed. Our MC, who spent years working with pwBPD, provided the "diagnosis". But the more I live this experience, the less important a diagnosis seems. Whether or not my wife has 4, 5 or 9 of the indications that BPD presents, it really makes no difference. That she has many of the traits, that they have persisted over the entire period that I have known her (17 years), that she seemingly is at the mercy of them even when it hurts her more than anyone else - that is all that really counts.

When I began viewing it in that light, I reached out to the friends that I valued and trusted the most. What I want to communicate with you is that you need to do this for yourself. Too often, I am not at all fair or helpful to myself. I watch friendships form and break apart, watch family and close personal friends drift out of my life, watch as we really have almost no families we regularly engage with, which would be so healthy and helpful for my children. In the end, my passive indecision and enabling is hurting me, and my family. I encourage you to look at what you need for you. And have the courage to act on it. I am finding that when I do this, it is better for everyone - me, my wife and my sons. 

Also, as far as it goes, my MC has advised not to share this diagnosis with my wife. It is stigmatizing to have a mental illness or personality disorder, and it very possibly would drive her further into shame and fight/flight response. At times, I certainly wrestle with the secrecy, the sneaking. In the end, I recognize that I am in a very challenging, flawed relationship, and the norm simply doesn't apply the way that my ethics believe it should. I don't have the answers here. I am with you in the uneasiness. But I am learning that taking care of the quality of my life only seems to help improve the quality of my SO's life, too.

[an0ught]

Hi calmhope,

I'm wondering, though, about my high-functioning uBPso's relationships with others … friends, colleagues, family, etc.

Are there ways that you have had some degree of success—I'm struggling to find the right wording—helping(?), influencing(?), supporting(?) more stable relationships between your pwBPD and others?

I don't like the idea of meddling, but I'd love to help in any way with what I see as a painful lifelong pattern of people in his life being "painted black" and/or simply rejecting him because he can be difficult. Often those soured relations spill over into my relationships and I feel increasingly isolated when I can't salvage a friendship or find myself caught in the middle.

yeah, we don't want to meddle but then we are at the receiving end as well.

What has worked for me:

- giving up on helping her! It is her problem. Boundaries. I don't own the outcome. Not my problem. - There was a lot of over-sharing and trying to get me involved - I stopped that.

- validation and emotional reasoning. While I do not get into problem solving her problems I do provide emotional feedback and emotional reasoning about the other side. My perception but no solution. Initially that was sometimes perceived as abandonment, taking sides, extinction bursts... .

- boundary coaching. Do you have to do this? What is the outcome you want? What is really important? Do you have to react? What would happen if you don't react now? Is this too close a relationship. Are we mixing too much here? Is that not the other sides problem? Is then line crossed? If crossed is the reaction appropriate/proportional? What are the consequences? But again all without taking ownership - she has to decide as she has to live with the consequences.

I found dealing with external conflicts - some of them being also us vs. 3rd party - quite useful as I can be more explicit in what are DBT inspired options for behavior. Especially valuable for boundaries as the they are harder to copy from us than validation.

I think what I do is sharing how I would deal with situations. But I totally accept that she may do it differently for whatever reason, emotion shared or kept private.

[JohnLove]

My wife is not officially diagnosed. Our MC, who spent years working with pwBPD, provided the "diagnosis". But the more I live this experience, the less important a diagnosis seems. Whether or not my wife has 4, 5 or 9 of the indications that BPD presents, it really makes no difference. That she has many of the traits, that they have persisted over the entire period that I have known her (17 years), that she seemingly is at the mercy of them even when it hurts her more than anyone else - that is all that really counts.

When I began viewing it in that light, I reached out to the friends that I valued and trusted the most. What I want to communicate with you is that you need to do this for yourself. Too often, I am not at all fair or helpful to myself. I watch friendships form and break apart, watch family and close personal friends drift out of my life, watch as we really have almost no families we regularly engage with, which would be so healthy and helpful for my children. In the end, my passive indecision and enabling is hurting me, and my family. I encourage you to look at what you need for you. And have the courage to act on it. I am finding that when I do this, it is better for everyone - me, my wife and my sons.  

Also, as far as it goes, my MC has advised not to share this diagnosis with my wife. It is stigmatizing to have a mental illness or personality disorder, and it very possibly would drive her further into shame and fight/flight response. At times, I certainly wrestle with the secrecy, the sneaking. In the end, I recognize that I am in a very challenging, flawed relationship, and the norm simply doesn't apply the way that my ethics believe it should. I don't have the answers here. I am with you in the uneasiness. But I am learning that taking care of the quality of my life only seems to help improve the quality of my SO's life, too.

WOW takingandsending, your feelings and beliefs in your post are the one that has most resonated with me since I have joined bpdfamily.com, and I have been here for a year.

The only difference. My BPDgf was professionally diagnosed while in her previous relationship and that is what led me here, when that diagnosis was revealed to me. Mine has 9/9 at various times throughout our relationship. So what she does and doesn't have has become irrelevant. Top marks. Just in the wrong order. 

[takingandsending]

Hey JohnLove.

A lot of us partners, SOs or spouses on this site are working within our own codependency. We are the right match for pwBPD because we lack the self-respect to make the changes that would help us to outgrow these non (or low) functioning relationships. I am trying to take the next step in my own self-discovery, namely trying to find people other than my coworkers and my wife that I can engage with in a way that braks my own pattern of isolation. I am hoping to join a hiking group and a writing group in my city. I don't want to be dependent on my wife or my kids to define who I am any longer. I think this will be healthier for me and for them. I want to be there for them, but I am finally beginning to understand that I have to choose to want to be there for me, too. Otherwise, I don't think being there for anybody else really works.

And, of course, I really do appreciate and value this community. I would still be in the FOG without bpdfamily and my MC.

[Stalwart]

Hey calmhope:

I so admire the empathy that you display in trying to find answers to assisting your husband with his external relationships. In my experience you're biting off a big one and I really don't know if there are answers to it.

I've had a lot of progress and really positive change with now being able to know when my spouse is engaging in conversations with others she interacting with and heading in a bad direction. I've also in a lot of cases been able to 'help' her mold her thinking a bit especially about being judgmental or other people being judgmental. That's been a big one and it's really helped her a lot. Me too, a happier wife is a happier life  

I don't know how involved you are in learning but you mentioned you thought if your SO took DBT training it would really help improve him. You're absolutely right, but in the event that doesn't come to fruition I'd like to ask you something; have you ever considered taking DBT yourself or even an online CBT course?

It is amazing how much there is to learn about, both for yourself and being able to apply it to maybe assisting him in his difficulties. There are free comprehensive CBT courses on line you can take at your leisure and a lot of information as well to better familiarize yourself with the process and workings of DBT therapy. It's all great information and you seem so engaged and thoughtful already that I know you'll walk away with a lot for the effort.

Just a suggestion and I really hope that you keep poking at this one until you find the answers you're searching for. 

Sorry, I don't know why but I've got this emoticom thingy going here tonight.

Just wondering  

[Stalwart]

Sorry calmheart I meant to start with this and then end with it and lost it entirely. There are naïve questions in a world of so many chaotic enigmas to ponder.

[JeanSchimmel]

I don't like the idea of meddling, but I'd love to help in any way with what I see as a painful lifelong pattern of people in his life being "painted black" and/or simply rejecting him because he can be difficult. Often those soured relations spill over into my relationships and I feel increasingly isolated when I can't salvage a friendship or find myself caught in the middle. Is it best to just continue not getting attached to people? Just accept that he will regularly have soured relationships and I may be affected?

I'm new here and don't know much about what is technically the best things to do (so take my words with a large grain of salt)... .but can you live with-out having "couple" friends and just have your own that you see when your SO isn't around? My SO has no friends left. Just because he can't do friendship with others doesn't mean I can't. In my own relationship I won't be a part of any attempted friendships he makes because they always lead to soured friends.

[calmhope]

the more I live this experience, the less important a diagnosis seems … that she has many of the traits, that they have persisted over the entire period that I have known her (17 years), that she seemingly is at the mercy of them even when it hurts her more than anyone else - that is all that really counts.

This is a good point. While a diagnosis could prove helpful, I'm realizing is isn't a requirement for things to improve here. I can already see some improvement in my r/s with my uBPso since I have been starting to practice validating, SET, boundaries, and mindfulness. Mind you, I'm still pretty unskillful at all of it, so I'm feeling optimistic that r/s will continue a gradual overall upswing as I become more skillful, as will my own self-esteem.

When I began viewing it in that light, I reached out to the friends that I valued and trusted the most. What I want to communicate with you is that you need to do this for yourself. Too often, I am not at all fair or helpful to myself. I watch friendships form and break apart, watch family and close personal friends drift out of my life, watch as we really have almost no families we regularly engage with, which would be so healthy and helpful for my children. In the end, my passive indecision and enabling is hurting me, and my family. I encourage you to look at what you need for you. And have the courage to act on it. I am finding that when I do this, it is better for everyone - me, my wife and my sons. 

Also, as far as it goes, my MC has advised not to share this diagnosis with my wife. It is stigmatizing to have a mental illness or personality disorder, and it very possibly would drive her further into shame and fight/flight response. At times, I certainly wrestle with the secrecy, the sneaking. In the end, I recognize that I am in a very challenging, flawed relationship, and the norm simply doesn't apply the way that my ethics believe it should. I don't have the answers here. I am with you in the uneasiness. But I am learning that taking care of the quality of my life only seems to help improve the quality of my SO's life, too.

I can see how sharing about my partner with valued and trusted friends could be beneficial in lots of ways for all involved. I'm not sure yet what those conversations might sound like in my case. (Will I call it "BPD"? Will I just talk about some of the traits like reactivity and a deep need for validation—which people often judge him for anyway?) I'm also not sure yet just how risky those conversations might be. I'm anxious about making things worse. (There is a good chance he would be livid if he found out—what then? What if something I say leads to more stigma and rejection than might happen otherwise.)

I appreciate your stress on doing this for myself, takingandsending. That seems simple enough, and, yes, necessary. But it's also complicated…

My SO and I both agree we each need to have our own friends, but (consciously or not) he meddles in my friendships. He is very gregarious and I'm quite introverted. I think he tries to "help" me foster friendships with his own overt gestures (LOTS of interaction through social media or text or in-person, obvious matchmaking) towards folks I've expressed interest in getting to know. If I understand the intention here correctly, it's sweet. However, I usually just feel overshadowed and self-conscious, which hinders my own connection.

The other type  of "meddling" (as I see it) is a tendency to make snap decisions about people, especially when there is something about the person that triggers some insecurity in my uBPso. (Sort of painting them black before he knows of much at all about them.) When this happens, I never hear the end of his snide remarks about them. I feel like pursuing connections with these folks is just begging for conflict at home.

Although I believe he truly does want me to develop friendships outside our relationship, in both scenarios (the encouraged friendships and the discouraged friendships) his barely under-the-surface jealous/insecure tendencies and his deep hunger for validation/acceptance can creep up at any moment and cause problems.

Ultimately I may carefully tread into discussions with people who I trust and value … I'm just not there yet.

[calmhope]

Thank you, an0ught.

What has worked for me:

- giving up on helping her! It is her problem. Boundaries. I don't own the outcome. Not my problem. - There was a lot of over-sharing and trying to get me involved - I stopped that.

This has sort of been my default all along, and it's still a valid and useful approach in most situations!

- validation and emotional reasoning. While I do not get into problem solving her problems I do provide emotional feedback and emotional reasoning about the other side. My perception but no solution. Initially that was sometimes perceived as abandonment, taking sides, extinction bursts... .

- boundary coaching. Do you have to do this? What is the outcome you want? What is really important? Do you have to react? What would happen if you don't react now? Is this too close a relationship. Are we mixing too much here? Is that not the other sides problem? Is then line crossed? If crossed is the reaction appropriate/proportional? What are the consequences? But again all without taking ownership - she has to decide as she has to live with the consequences.

These ideas are in the direction that I had in mind when I asked the question. I'm hoping to become skillful enough to offer feedback or even some coaching if he is open to it. (I will have to be very skillful and develop a featherlight touch before trying it. He thinks he has everything under control and full accountability almost always rests with the other party when there is any friction )

[calmhope]

I don't know how involved you are in learning but you mentioned you thought if your SO took DBT training it would really help improve him. You're absolutely right, but in the event that doesn't come to fruition I'd like to ask you something; have you ever considered taking DBT yourself or even an online CBT course?

It is amazing how much there is to learn about, both for yourself and being able to apply it to maybe assisting him in his difficulties. There are free comprehensive CBT courses on line you can take at your leisure and a lot of information as well to better familiarize yourself with the process and workings of DBT therapy. It's all great information and you seem so engaged and thoughtful already that I know you'll walk away with a lot for the effort.

Just a suggestion and I really hope that you keep poking at this one until you find the answers you're searching for. 

This is a great suggestion, Stalwart! It is has crossed my mind a few times to do the free CBT online program, so thanks for the nudge. I think I'll try that as my next step

[waverider]

pwBPD split people all the time. You are not going you stop it. You can only address the affects on you. If that means you get accused of not being a suportive partner, then you have to make it clear that you are not just a parrot for your partners likes or dislikes. You are capable of choosing your own friends and acquaintances. You need boundaries for that or you will become isolated.

You also need to set a precedent that he can't use you also as fuel to smear others. Getting drawn in trying to salvage, or mediate, will see you being used for triangulation which will backfire.

Relationships between your partners and others where you are not involved are best left alone to their consequences. Do not take them on, or you will find yourself out of sync and become the subject of "getting it wrong". you can't rescue these. This commonly happens when getting involved in spats with their own family.

[JeanSchimmel]

There are free comprehensive CBT courses on line you can take at your leisure and a lot of information as well to better familiarize yourself with the process and workings of DBT therapy.

What is CBT, cognitive behavior training? I'd be interested in knowing where a person (me) can take free online courses so I can learn better ways of interacting with my uBPDh.

[waverider]

There are free comprehensive CBT courses on line you can take at your leisure and a lot of information as well to better familiarize yourself with the process and workings of DBT therapy.

What is CBT, cognitive behavior training? I'd be interested in knowing where a person (me) can take free online courses so I can learn better ways of interacting with my uBPDh.

Free On-Line Cognitive Behavioral Therapy Program (CBT)

[Stalwart]

Thanks waverider, for responding to Jean. The same one I took and it's really interesting. I was hesitating on posting a thread to an outside source hoping that a moderator would.

Great job.

It's worth taking Jean, a bit time consuming, but done at your leisure. A lot to learn about yourself here and a lot to relate to your situation as food for thought.

Good luck going forward.