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Author Topic: Alienation of children  (Read 555 times)
newlifeBPDfree
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« on: March 26, 2015, 06:59:57 AM »

My D11 is constantly being alienated towards me by my exBPD husband. I was trying to understand the reason he has such big influence on her and why she is so clingy to him. Whenever she has an option to spend time with me or him, she will chose him. She is much more affectionate with him than with me. I'm really struggling with my relationship with her.

I'm trying to come up with some kind of answer to her change of behavior. We would always do things together and we used to be really close. I don't know what's going on.  Is it possible that he is doing the "love bombing" thing to her? The same way he did it to me at the beginning of our relationship and to all his flings?  I read some of the messages he sent her telling her how much he loves her, that she is the most important person in his life, that he's back in school because of her etc.

Another thing is I think she may be worried about him. He was trying to kill himself last fall and told her it was because of me. His girlfriend found him in the bathroom after my daughter called her to check on him because she was worried he was not responding. afterwards he threw the suicide card at me in front of her numerous times. I can see how she may be worried that if she is not with him, he may try to do it again.

But that does not explain why she is not as affectionate to me as she used to and she does not want to spedn as much time with me. I have been basically begging her to do things - go to the movies, downtown etc but she is always so lukewarm to all my ideas. This also give my ex fuel because he is accusing me of being a bad mother and not spending quality time with her.

I also know he tells her about our legal fight, mediations, courts etc.  He paints me black all the time to her.

I'm trying to show her I love her, I am consistent, I' predictable but I still feel like I'm struggling with her.

Any tips?
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« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2015, 09:00:09 AM »

Hi Newlife,

I'm sorry that you are having to go through this and sorry for your daughter as well.  She is young and can't sort these types of things out in  her mind.

She may be holding you responsible in her mind for your ex's suicide attempt because he has blamed you in her presence.  Parentification is going on here.

It's good that she loves her dad so much and not good for her to feel responsible for his well being.

How is her counseling going?  Do you  guys talk about this stuff in sessions?

Keep being consistent with her, validating her, and letting her know you want to spend time together with  her... .avoid talking about your ex unless she brings something up... .that would be a good time to ask some validating questions.

Here are some links to articles you will find helpful:

Validating Kids in Divorced and Blended Families

The Power of Asking Validating Questions

lbjnltx
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« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2015, 10:06:19 AM »

Hi Newlife,

I'm sorry that you are having to go through this and sorry for your daughter as well.  She is young and can't sort these types of things out in  her mind.

She may be holding you responsible in her mind for your ex's suicide attempt because he has blamed you in her presence.  Parentification is going on here.

It's good that she loves her dad so much and not good for her to feel responsible for his well being.

How is her counseling going?  Do you  guys talk about this stuff in sessions?

Keep being consistent with her, validating her, and letting her know you want to spend time together with  her... .avoid talking about your ex unless she brings something up... .that would be a good time to ask some validating questions.

Here are some links to articles you will find helpful:

Validating Kids in Divorced and Blended Families

The Power of Asking Validating Questions

lbjnltx

I couldnt get her into therapy because my ex is making it difficult. I lined up a therapist and he said he does not agree with me chosing one and poisoning her mind against him. So he went ahead and pciked his own therapist and refused to tell me who it was. The first session was supposed to be yesterday but I think it was all a lie. in the emantime, my therapist that I founf refuses now to work with us unless we are both on the same page. So it looks like I need to find a new one because we will never be on the same page... .

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« Reply #3 on: March 27, 2015, 10:16:17 AM »

We had to get it in writing by the lawyers that BF ex wife would choose three T that were acceptable to her and provide us their names and info.  Out of the three, we were to choose the one T.

This was a nightmare as well because although she provided us a list of three, after much back and forth excuses, she insisted that only one of the three would have time to see D, therefore she couldn't really see the other two T.

*sigh*

I'm sorry you are going through this and in the meantime, your D has to wait for treatment.
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« Reply #4 on: March 28, 2015, 07:07:29 AM »

I just read some text messages my exBPDh sent to my daughter. They say he is scared of me because I threaten him, I'm mean to him, I want to take her away from him etc.

It's scary because I dont know what else he is saying to her about me when she is with him.

How do I clarify these things to her without sounding like I talk badly about her dad? How do I let her know that it's completely wrong and it's actually the other way round - that he is the one that harasses me and is mean to me.

I think that part of the reason she is so tight with him is that she believes that he is being mistreated by me and she wants to give him extra love to compensate for it. But how do I make her see that he is the oppressor?

This is so hard to deal with. I met with some anger from her last night. I'm trying to validate her and talk to her but  I feel like he has so much control over her mind. It's truly scary. 
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« Reply #5 on: March 28, 2015, 07:34:37 AM »

This is so hard to deal with. I met with some anger from her last night. I'm trying to validate her and talk to her but  I feel like he has so much control over her mind. It's truly scary. 

Yes, it is hard to deal with.  Yes this would make her angry, it would make me angry too. I'm worried about your daughter, I want her to feel safe and loved and happy. I want her to know that you wouldn't want anything bad to happen to her dad and it's important to you that she have a good relationship with him because he's her daddy and they love each other. I want to tell her that you love her too and will be there for her anytime and anyway she needs you to be.

So... .this is validation.  It solely focuses on her feelings and needs.  It doesn't counterattack nor  does it make excuses for self. 

When we operate from our fears instead of  focusing on skills we sometimes make things worse. Using our fears to drive ourselves towards skill learning/using then fear serves us well.

lbj
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 07:39:13 AM »

I would also suggest having her watch "Welcome Back, Pluto"--I know that is my typical recommendation these days.  It talks in child-friendly ways to educate children about the alienation they are experiencing.  It's on Amazon.  I think it helped our situation--the kids were hearing about it from court-appointed counselors, but they assumed those counselors were "biased" against mom.  Hearing about it in a generic DVD, I think, helped them realize that this really was a thing, not something constructed by counselors trying to turn them against BPD mom (that is how BPD mom had them thinking... .man, she is good at looking like the victim).

Also, if you have a chance to "defend" yourself, it is better when you defend with questions.  Like "How does it make you feel thinking that I am hurting your dad?" and ":)oes that sound like something I would do?  I mean, is it something that sounds like what I do?"
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« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2015, 02:06:12 PM »

So... .this is validation.  It solely focuses on her feelings and needs.  It doesn't counterattack nor  does it make excuses for self. 

I like how you phrase this lbjnltx. When we do not counterattack, it helps to remove ourselves from the triangles that our BPD ex spouses are consumed with ("us" against "them.". The way to do this is to guide your D back to seeing this as something she is working on with her dad. Not something that you are working on with her dad.

Our exes put our kids in the middle. We use validation to help our kids feel this role. Parental alienation can manifest in different ways. It can be parentification, adultification, and infantilization. Adultification is when an adult treats a child like a peer, which can be a form of emotional incest. This is different than parentification, which is when the adult expects the child to assume adult responsibilities of taking care of the parent. Infantilizing is when an adult treats the child as though he or she is helpless, and cannot assume adult responsibilities.

newlifeBPDfree, do you think your ex is adultifying your D11? That may explain why there is a lot of affection in the relationship.

I haven't seem Welcome Back Pluto, but it's one of the DVDs that Richard Warshak recommends -- he is the author of Divorce Poison and a leading expert on parental alienation. It might be worth watching it, or talking to a child psychologist about the merits of the DVD to get their opinion. Maybe there is a reunification therapist in your area that you could talk to? These are the T's that courts order to get involved when the alienation is severe, so they will understand your concerns and may have some good ideas about phrases you can use.

I found it helpful to use specific phrases when my fears were in the red zone, so sometimes just having a handful of phrases, whether validation or something else that Warshak includes in his book, can be very helpful for centering.

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« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2015, 12:00:46 AM »

Lived learned

Can a parent do all three of those things? I see elements of all three of the types of behavior you describe. Is it common or usual for a BPD to fluctuate between those three?
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« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2015, 08:06:10 AM »

Lived learned

Can a parent do all three of those things? I see elements of all three of the types of behavior you describe. Is it common or usual for a BPD to fluctuate between those three?

I think all three are different ways that adults/parents have bad boundaries with their kids, so I imagine it's possible for all three to exist in one form or another. It could be that the author of the article I read (still trying to find it) described these three types to show that alienation is not always parentification, or infantilization, etc. For example, a child can feel parentified if a parent is seriously ill and not able to take her medication.
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« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2015, 12:21:37 PM »



Excerpt
newlifeBPDfree, do you think your ex is adultifying your D11? That may explain why there is a lot of affection in the relationship.

I had too Google all the terms to be able to answer. I think adultification is possible here. I need to read more about it. I have been reading all kinds of materials and it's helping me a great deal.

As to the Welcome Back Pluto DVD - I'm intrigued but I don't want to be too obvious when I ask my daughter watch it. How do I even approach it? she basically rejects any type of serious discussion I want to have with her. If she suspects that I'm trying to make her do something, she'll refuse to watch it.

She refused to go to a T until my exBPDh convinced her. Obviously all ideas are received by her better when he is the one presenting them.

I also noticed that she is asking him what to say to me, which really worries me. They were texting back and forth behind my back about her spending the night at his place on my night and I when asked her why she was changing plans,  she told my ex what I asked her and asked him what to say.   
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« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2015, 12:31:27 PM »

EDIT: newlifeBPDfree, have you looked at the validation material? That is your number one best place to start. Do you want to share some examples of conversations with your D and see if we can look for opportunities to validate how she is feeling?

When you validate how she feels, it has a powerful effect that she cannot directly resist. Because it's a form of love -- you are acknowledging that this person's feelings are real, and are putting their needs and feelings ahead of your needs and feelings.

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« Reply #12 on: March 30, 2015, 02:14:46 PM »

yes, I looked at the validation material and I've been reading about alienation as well.

Usually she does not want to talk about feelings or anything that's going on at all. The other day, for example, she was angry at me because my ex is trying to get more time with her than he is supposed to and she is fine with it. I was trying to put a stop to it.

He told her that on Wednesdays it's up to her to decide whether she wants to spend the night at his house or mine. She usually picks his house. I was trying to oppose to this practice. She told me she was angry and it looks like she holds a grudge because 1.5 months ago when I filed for restraining order I would not let her see him for a week. I thought that he had really bad influence on her and involving her too mcuh in what's going on between us and I was really worried about her

(more about this here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=272049.msg12581564#msg12581564)

She told me that I took her away from dad for a week and she seemed angry about it. I told her that both dad and I love her very much and that we are going through difficult times and are trying to figure things out. I also told her that I want to have aq relationship with her and I want her to have a good relationship with her dad as well and that I would never take her away from him.

But in general, I feel like most of the times she won;t even open up and tell me why she is angry. She will just say "you should know why I'm angry" or refuse to talk whatsoever. That's why when she opened up and expressed her anger I told her I like hearing things from her even when she expresses negative feelings and is angry at me. I told her that I can usually sense there is something bothering her and I'd rather she told me something negative than bottle it all inside.

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« Reply #13 on: March 30, 2015, 06:12:17 PM »

I'm sorry this is so hard, newlifeBPDfree. I feel for you. Alienation feels like we're losing our kids, a strange and frightening process. You are working on this now in the early stages and that's a good thing.

One thing I remember reading in Warshak's work is that opening a closed mind is a delicate operation. It will happen slowly, and can't be rushed. It might help to think of validation as a long-term strategy -- like watering a seed. Watering once will not make the seed sprout, it's something you will be doing over and over and over again. Sometimes it helps to find phrases that seem to work. Or look at body language. My son stuffed his feelings -- I didn't get the acting out or anger, it was all internalized. So I learned to validate his body language. "It feels like you are angry. You're looking out the window and your jaw is tensed." Some days I would get nothing but a grunt.

I also used some of the shows that S13 to help. If you watch any Disney shows or Nickelodeon, there are examples galore of self-centered parents. A handful of times we would have the TV on and I would see an interaction -- I would ask S13 what he thought of the dynamic. That's an idea that Warshak promotes, to look at movies or shows that have examples. It allows you to see the dynamic from a values perspective that you can talk to your D about. It's either in his book or on his website that he lists ideas for different shows you can watch.

One thing I will say -- parental alienation is usually something that one parent does, but it's also a dynamic. My T was very blunt with me about my role in that dynamic. It can be hard to hear. But there have been many times when I'm validating S13, and my intentions are not genuine. I want to defend myself, or get S13 to see things my way. Kids who have an alienating parent have incredible radars for this. Your D is still young, and may be experiencing some enmeshment. She might also know, on some level, that both of her parents are focused on their own needs and not hers. I don't know if I'm saying this well. I had to work with my T to describe conversations and have her basically go through them with me sentence by sentence to point out where I was inserting my stuff instead of being authentic and genuinely validating S13.

It's hard stuff. We're here for you 

LnL
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« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2015, 01:02:42 PM »

Excerpt
I'm sorry this is so hard, newlifeBPDfree. I feel for you. Alienation feels like we're losing our kids, a strange and frightening process. You are working on this now in the early stages and that's a good thing.

That's exactly how it feels.

Yesterday I picked her up from her dad's house. We had dinner out and got home about 1 hour later. She went to her room and I heard her talking to someone. I asked her sho she was talking to and it was dad. They talked for 30 minutes at least. I interrupted and said that she was just with dad and I'd like to spend some time with her too. She finally hung up but was not excited to do anything. She shot down all my activities ideas and then she said she was tired and went to bed after showering. I was so disappointed ... .Today she is with her dad again, so he will have more chances to enforce his strong grasp on her.

Also, this morning when I got her up for school, she was grumpier than usually. She is not a morning person but this morning seemed worse. She was trying to print something from my computer but the wireless printer was not cooperating. She asked me to help her but she refused to let me see the document. She was snappy and short with me when I was trying to help. Then when she finally printed it and she was finishing getting dressed I went for a hug and a kiss and she brushed me off and said she was getting something and I was in the way. I told her that it hurt my feelings because I was trying to show her affection and she yelled at me saying "I told you I was getting something" and she got really defensive. Then she stormed out of the house and was walking ahead of me and would not wait for me. I'm really confused. I don't know what happened. I dont know what i'm doing wrong. I'm really strugglig.
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« Reply #15 on: March 31, 2015, 01:23:23 PM »

Each case of alienation is different. Validation is a core skill, worth reading about and practicing. You can also reach out to Richard Warshak on his site -- he does phone consultations if you would like an expert to evaluate what might be going on.

Another option is looking up "reunification therapists" in your area to see if you can consult with them. You may not be able to get your D into see them without a court order, but you can ask them questions that may help allay your fears, or learn some techniques so you can navigate this skillfully.

Warshak also has a list of shows that he recommends parents watch with their kids -- to talk about the shows, not necessarily the alienating parent.

Would you consider reaching out to him or to a T who is experienced in this?
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« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2015, 01:46:11 PM »

Each case of alienation is different. Validation is a core skill, worth reading about and practicing. You can also reach out to Richard Warshak on his site -- he does phone consultations if you would like an expert to evaluate what might be going on.

Another option is looking up "reunification therapists" in your area to see if you can consult with them. You may not be able to get your D into see them without a court order, but you can ask them questions that may help allay your fears, or learn some techniques so you can navigate this skillfully.

Warshak also has a list of shows that he recommends parents watch with their kids -- to talk about the shows, not necessarily the alienating parent.

Would you consider reaching out to him or to a T who is experienced in this?

I just ordered a book by dr Warshak - Divorce Poison I think was the title. I'm goign to try to read it so I can get more knowledge about alienation. I'm actively looking for a therapist as well. I just need something to give me strength to go through the days like today.
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« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2015, 01:57:46 PM »

Yes, Warshak is considered a leading expert on parental alienation. It's a helpful book -- I'm glad you ordered it. He will do phone consultations if you feel that might give you some strength (and information) according to his website: www.warshak.com

Coparenting With a Toxic Ex is another book recommended here by some members who have read it.

I found the Warshak book was like putting my finger in an electric socket. He describes some of the worst cases of alienation, so if you aren't there yet, that can be scary. I preferred Bill Eddy's ":)on't Alienate the Kids" because it helped me get centered. I think part of my son's susceptibility to alienation is that I was in a constant state of anxiety, whereas his dad was like a buddy. Eddy's book gave me a frame of mind that helped a lot.

Also, don't underestimate the power of talking to your child while driving in the car. This isn't to grill them -- you want to read and understand the skills (validation) and techniques (Warshak's book) first.

I would drive to my son's favorite restaurant on the other side of town (a longer drive) and bring one thing up. That's where we started to open things up.

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« Reply #18 on: March 31, 2015, 02:59:56 PM »

Excerpt


Also, don't underestimate the power of talking to your child while driving in the car. This isn't to grill them -- you want to read and understand the skills (validation) and techniques (Warshak's book) first.

I would drive to my son's favorite restaurant on the other side of town (a longer drive) and bring one thing up. That's where we started to open things up.

Funny that you mentioned that, I actually found that out last night. She was much more talkative on my way home than when we actually got home last night.

And I'm the same way - high anxiety and tension, while my exBPDh is this cool dude that she always has fun with. I'm not sure how to compete with that. 
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« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2015, 03:26:27 PM »

And I'm the same way - high anxiety and tension, while my exBPDh is this cool dude that she always has fun with. I'm not sure how to compete with that.  

You don't want to compete. You want to get centered and grounded. Hard, I know. I took a mindfulness-based stress reduction class (MBSR) that has been life-changing. Just learning to pay attention to how I think, and what I think.

I just kept learning, gathering information, trying things, like a scientist.

With your D getting angry about the printer. "Are you angry? I get angry sometimes when technology doesn't work too." Then leave it at that. She is not ready to talk -- she's angry. You validate, not necessarily to get the verbal response you want, but to provide a steady stream of acknowledgement that she is a separate person who has her own feelings. It will create a shift at a deep level. Hard to see at first, perhaps, but it is an antidote to the invalidation of her dad (emotional incest). You aren't chasing her, you are validating her.

She is angry at you because she's angry. Period. Her dad is providing a seductive alternative, but it isn't stable, or safe. On some level, she knows this. But there is nowhere else for her to be heard, so it's preferable to the vacuum of her own difficult and negative feelings. No one is helping her process them (this is no one's fault), the pain of divorce, the fear about what will happen to her dad, who she is, the fear of becoming an adult, the stigma of having a divorced family. Her dad's overwhelming feelings are overtaking how she understands her own.

The more grounded you become, the more you understand the logic of how emotions work, the easier this stuff gets. There are other techniques that are important, like what Warshak recommends. For example, when confronted with a false allegation, you want to set the record straight. No one wants to put their child in the middle, but when the other parent is doing that, not defending yourself creates a deafening silence -- our kids have only one narrative, and it's being provided by the disordered parent. But first you have to validate them. That word again! Because often when kids bring a topic to you, it's because it worries them. ":)ad says you are trying to take me away from him." A child who feels she is half mom, half dad is not going to feel ok about that. What will happen to her? She doesn't know. It scares her.

Our response is often to defend with rational logic. "Of course I'm not going to keep you from your dad. He's just saying that." But we have to do more than that. We have to say, "How does that make you feel when he says that?" That's how you stop alienation from growing. You give your child the skills to fact-check her own feelings. "My dad said my mom is going to do this bad thing. But wait. He's the one who told me it was ok to drive two states away for a week without telling anyone."

Go easy on yourself as you get your head around this stuff. It's black belt level training. You're learning about your own emotions, and your daughter's, and your ex husband's all at the same time, and doing things that feel different than what you're accustomed to. Meanwhile the wolf is at the door, making you feel afraid that you'll lose your daughter.

You have to be the catcher's mitt. And be patient. At some point, there will be an opportunity, and you are going to ace it. That's how things took a major turn for me. My ex scared the living crap out of my son (and me). I had just finished reading Warshak's book. When S13 came through the door, I hugged him and just said, "I understand. I know. Take as much time as you need, and come find me when you ready. I'm here for you." He went to his room for 20 minutes, and then came down. He was 11 at the time, but cuddled with me like he was 5. The whole story came out, and I just listened. When I talked, I asked questions, and he answered. He was clingy for a week, things kept coming out in bits and pieces. ":)ad said he wanted to borrow my baseball bat to beat you." That came out in the supermarket. "Why do you think he said that to you? Was he aware how you were feeling when he said that? Do you feel ok talking about what happened next?"

It's big stuff. We have a hard job.

We can also get through these things. We have each other to help us find our way.

And books helps  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Breathe.
newlifeBPDfree
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 146



« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2015, 04:19:56 PM »

Thank you so much livedandlearned for taking the time to respond to my issues with such depth and so much useful information.

I do know that I need to be patient and just keep doing what I'm doing. I'm the only stable and grouded person she has in her life and I know that sooner or later he will start making really bad mistakes with her. There were times were he did things that hurt her and she did not want to talk to him at all but I was there trying to eoncourage her to reconcile and have a relationship with her dad. It's sad that he does not do the same. In fact, I think our daughter anger towards me gives him more fuels and this wicked joy. I know I'm strong and that my consistency will one day prevail and speak louder than his workds. It's just hard right now when I really miss what I had with her and I spend time alone, sad and worried that i'm losing my child.

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newlifeBPDfree
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: Divorced
Posts: 146



« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2015, 06:10:43 AM »

Just an update on my situation as something really concerning happened last night.

My daughter was with him last night. He had been sending me harassing text messages all day. At one point he asked if I could change the sole custody to joint custody. I guess it really bothers he does not have joint. I told him that I'm not optimistic he can handle joint custody at this point and I told him why I think so (examples of recent problems with communication, him stopping my daughter from seeing therapist, modeling disrespectful behavior etc). As a response he went off with dozen insulting messages, which I ignored. When I got home he started calling me, which I ignored but at one point he texted me "911 please call". I called immediately worried about my daughter. When he answer I heard her screaming and crying in the background. He told me that his current girlfriend he is living with kicked them out tonight. I heard the GF say Bull***t in the background. Then he told me that they got into it and my daughter ran away and he had to chase her for 45 minutes all over the neighborhood (we live in a large city), which got me very concerned. I was trying to talk to my daughter but she wouldn't. She did not want me to pick her up. When I was trying to talk to her my exBPDh kept saying "you are lying, you piece of shi**t, you filed an order of protection and wouldn't let me see her for a week", and so on which fueled my daughters fears of being taken away from her dad.

I said I was coming to get her. When I got there he came out with her and she reluctantly got on the passenger side of my car. He got half of his body inside the car and started yelling me, blaming for what happened "Youd did this, you lied to me about custody, you were fu***ing the divorce attorney, you are a c***nt, a whore etc. All in front of my daughter... .While passer bys were walking by and looking at us... .

I finally got him out and started driving home. My daughter would not talk and all attempts at me trying to reassure her were met with anger, screaming and kicking. She said I'm going to keep her now. When I tried to touch her or hug her she said "don't touch me", "stay away from me" and when we got home she immediately went into her room. She was texting my exBPDh's girfriend. There was a lot of affection between them, she was telling her she loves her so much and now my mom will take me away from you etc. Then I saw her texting her dad and she was telling him she loves him so much too. All I got is hate and anger.

I'm heartbroken. I dont know how in the world I got to be the villain in last night's event. How was everything flipped and I was blamed for their fight even when I was not there. I don't know how to come out of this. I am so scared what's happening with my daughter. She seems utterly brainwashed and the fact hearing her dad say such vile and disgusting things to me and she still backs him up is really puzzling.
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