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Author Topic: Is it possible to be TOO detached?  (Read 1044 times)
Michelle27
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« on: March 26, 2015, 09:55:41 AM »

Out of self preservation (and not necessarily knowing what I was doing), several years ago I started detaching emotionally from my uBPDh.  While I do think it was good for me to lose some of my codependent tendencies, I wonder sometimes if I have taken it too far to allow us to be in a truly mutual relationship.  From what he says and how he acts, I know he's dying for me to be vulnerable and emotional with him but I just don't think it's safe yet as he's just beginning the path of getting professional help.  I asked my counselor about it last night and she confirms from what I've said that I'm probably NOT emotionally safe yet and that it's ok.  But I wonder if it's possible to go too  far in the detaching process and not be able to make a relationship work anymore.
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 11:43:41 AM »

Thanks for bringing this up, Michelle27.

My SO's BP traits and my own codependent traits are things that I have been paying close attention to in just the past few months, but I had a similar process of emotionally detaching—out of self preservation (and not necessarily knowing what I was doing)—several years ago when my uBPso crossed way over the line and I found myself in a very unsafe situation.

I've not been vulnerable in the same ways with him since then, and our intimacy (physical and emotional) has suffered.

I don't know the answer to your question. I know that I'm not comfortable being vulnerable with him, but I'm hopeful that I will eventually cultivate enough inner strength and self-worthiness to feel safe softening much more someday.

Looking forward to seeing what others have to say.
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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 11:54:04 AM »

Out of self preservation (and not necessarily knowing what I was doing), several years ago I started detaching emotionally from my uBPDh.  While I do think it was good for me to lose some of my codependent tendencies, I wonder sometimes if I have taken it too far to allow us to be in a truly mutual relationship.  From what he says and how he acts, I know he's dying for me to be vulnerable and emotional with him but I just don't think it's safe yet as he's just beginning the path of getting professional help.  I asked my counselor about it last night and she confirms from what I've said that I'm probably NOT emotionally safe yet and that it's ok.  But I wonder if it's possible to go too  far in the detaching process and not be able to make a relationship work anymore.

I am in exactly the same situation with my BPDw.  She was diagnosed to me, but the T did not want to tell her.  She still does not know. 

Accordingly, while she has done a bit better with her emotions, it only seems to last as long as we don't talk about anything of substance.  Otherwise it all falls apart.  I try and test her periodically for safety, but she is still not capable of listening to me share anything yet.  Anything of substance brings a huge emotional response from her that turns destructive quickly.

The odd part for us is that she has no problem with sex.  She desires it more than me, but does not seem to need any relationship intimacy to base it on.  It feels very empty to me, but it keeps her regulated so I guess it works for both of us in an odd way.

The hard part seems to be balancing Radical Acceptance with Hope.  Radical Acceptance seems to tell me that there are limits and I need to lower my expectations.  Given that my BPDw is not in any real treatment it kills my hope for any more than we have right now.  It is kind of discouraging to think of sitting in the same place we are right now for the next ten years. 
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Michelle27
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 02:18:54 PM »

The "not being able to talk about anything of substance" is what makes me wonder if I've taken detaching too far.  What kind of relationship doesn't allow for both parties to talk about what matters to them?  I sometimes feel like a roommate he wants to have sex with, not a partner. Grr. 

I've had hope many times and had it deflated due to him lying about getting help and manipulating/sabotaging the process when it's been offered to him (yes, he admits that he did this many times).  I don't even know if I have it in me to be hopeful anymore when it comes to him getting help.  And then to add insult to injury, knowing how close I was to leaving, he flipped a switch and is now "love-bombing" me and I can't even enjoy that because I don't believe it's real! 
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Aurylian
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 03:46:12 PM »

I know there have been a few examples on this forum in the past (e.g. Steph in success stories), where the pwBPD was getting treatment and could recognize on some level when they were dysregulating.  This seemed to allow for intimacy building during the good times, then just riding out the rough times. 

Ironically it is often the most low functioning pwBPD who can obtain this because they know something is wrong and when they aren't low they are more willing to work toward intimacy.  Higher functioners or those who aren't really taking therapy seriously would seem less likely candidates for some level of real intimacy.

I would love to hear more successful stayers chime in on this. 
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Michelle27
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 04:37:10 PM »

I know there have been a few examples on this forum in the past (e.g. Steph in success stories), where the pwBPD was getting treatment and could recognize on some level when they were dysregulating.  This seemed to allow for intimacy building during the good times, then just riding out the rough times. 

Ironically it is often the most low functioning pwBPD who can obtain this because they know something is wrong and when they aren't low they are more willing to work toward intimacy.  Higher functioners or those who aren't really taking therapy seriously would seem less likely candidates for some level of real intimacy.

I would love to hear more successful stayers chime in on this. 

Interesting perspective.  I will have to ponder this. It makes perfect sense.
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« Reply #6 on: March 28, 2015, 01:38:13 PM »

Hey Michelle:

I'm really, really sorry you find yourself in the position that you're in and it is both hurtful, lonely and somewhat frightening. I've seen some good comments and understandings here. We all have different experiences and I'll share mine a bit with you.

"I would love to hear more successful stayers chime in on this" Well I"m actually one of those people here.

I was where you were five years ago, four years into our marriage. My wife was diagnosed three years ago with BPD.

It was my experience back then that I had to for the same reasons, self-protection and a real lack of understanding how to understand her actions and how mine played into it to make it worse. They say sometimes you have to start making it worse before you can start making it better and that was my experience.

For me it was a really bad path that led to a lot of problems by not meeting her needs for closeness, intimacy which is a relationship check for her, and particularly not meeting her needs of reassurance that she's loved and stable in her relationship. BPD needs are real and honestly they are so intense to them that ignoring or overlooking them may not take you in a better direction but a worse.

We have choices to stay or to go, or at least we should all have a clear understanding of those options. Choosing to stay opens the real possibility to be choosing to stay and make positive changes in your relationship and yes that takes a lot of learning, a lot of understanding: like Aurylian said learning Radical Acceptance of a different point of view and having assurance that the things your partner feels at any given time is REAL to them and not manufactured for attention or manipulation. Whatever the action there will be something so real to their inner meanings. There is a desperate need that wants to be met regardless of how they present that. A fear, an insecurity an emptiness or desperate pain that needs to be addressed. Knowing what it is and what may have triggered that need is not always easy.

Fact is he's coming to you for that need. You don't trust that relationship and I'm sure he probably feels the same way. The real question is how do you build that trust. Trust is the real catalyst to change and bringing about a relationship that can work. It is difficult Michelle but are you where you want to be and stay?

There are other ways forward through learning, building and it really takes both courage and commitment. It takes a vision of what you want and heading down a path to get there. Not an easy path and there will be pot holes and mud puddles that you'll have to wade through along the way but it's really, really possible to turn it around and change your path for a better one. It really depends on what you want and what your willing to put into it after all the past hurts - whether you have the ability to put the past in the past to clear a way for a better future and if that's what you want to dedicate yourself to.

It can be done in some cases sweetheart. Is there a choice to stay in the place you are now when you're scared and unhappy and in indecision? It's about commitment to yourself and what's good for you.

Honestly sweetie you can't change him or force him to anything but you can change yourself and in doing so change the entire dynamically positive that surrounds you. It really is possible. Can you see it being possible for you?




 
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« Reply #7 on: March 28, 2015, 03:06:34 PM »

Hi Michelle,

Out of self preservation (and not necessarily knowing what I was doing), several years ago I started detaching emotionally from my uBPDh. While I do think it was good for me to lose some of my codependent tendencies, I wonder sometimes if I have taken it too far to allow us to be in a truly mutual relationship.

What is your idea of a truly mutual relationship? Does it take into account his (possibly reduced) BPD related tendencies?

Excerpt
From what he says and how he acts, I know he's dying for me to be vulnerable and emotional with him but I just don't think it's safe yet as he's just beginning the path of getting professional help.  I asked my counselor about it last night and she confirms from what I've said that I'm probably NOT emotionally safe yet and that it's ok.

Yup, don't do anything you are not comfortable with. But also keep in mind that by definition you can't be vulnerable without taking risks.

Excerpt
But I wonder if it's possible to go too  far in the detaching process and not be able to make a relationship work anymore.

I think this is always a risk when moving from an enmeshed relationship to a healthier one. Let's not forget longer BPD relationships are really quite stable compared with normal relationships.

Validation is a relationship building and healing tool. I see that you have posted about validation in the past but then we can't do enough here and we can't do it well enough. Check out the different kinds of validation and think about how you can push your boundaries and take some risk.

Are you doing openly self validation e.g. by verbally expressing how exactly you feel? It can give the other some intelligence into our inner life and is of limited risk. If he is very sensitive you may have to stick to the SET (T=your emotion) pattern but ultimately you want to get to a place where you can do this most of the time without much thought. These do not have to be special feelings in areas where you are very vulnerable you could start with simple things like hot, cold, hunger and thirsty etc... In order for him to validate you he needs to understand you.

As you are not feeling totally safe - have you worked on boundaries in more than a black and white sense? A natural pattern when faced with abuse and not being good with boundaries is to establish a first and solid boundary around yourself like "I won't be yelled at" etc... Can you think of your boundary not as a circle but a set of circles that are staggered? Can you think of what you share in sets of easy, risky and impossible to share stuff and place them in the circles? And can you think about the line in terms of line+grey area where an occasional small misstep is managed by you through assertiveness?

Have you truly thought about the worst case? I mean you share something and he uses it to hurt you? Would be nothing really new I guess. So the worst case is he uses another new thing to hurt you. A new tool in his toolbox. Won't increase the frequency of him opening the box. There may be already quite some potent, even more potent tools in his box. So what exactly is the risk?

Again, don't do anything you are to some degree ok with. Possibly your T can help you planning some smaller steps to open up. In some sense you have torn down a unhealthy relationship and have now to rebuild it. This takes time and patience, especially when he is not through therapy yet.

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« Reply #8 on: March 28, 2015, 03:52:47 PM »

Wow.  Stalwart and AnOught, both very deep and insightful replies.  Thank you so much for the time and thought you both put into this.

You are right, anOught, tearing down the unhealthy relationship is exactly what it feels like I'm doing.  I suppose I haven't given enough thought to the rebuilding stage beyond my own hopes that I can heal from the damage caused by years of abuse, and learning to believe that he really DOESN'T want to hurt me.  I keep hanging onto the idea that he can't possibly truly love me if he could do and say the things he's done. 

I've done a lot of work on what I won't tolerate anymore and that I actually have a choice in whether or not to be affected by his emotions.  At the same time, I'm terrified of being a victim again and I think that's why I don't want to open myself up.  The last handful of dysregulations have mostly been whenever I have expressed an emotion or talked about my feelings.  I think it's natural to feel like it would be better to not express an emotion or talk about my feelings at all which is obviously making me feel even less connected to him.  He's actually asked me to open myself up more and while I understand why, I haven't even come close to allowing myself to go that far.  Maybe I do need to take a risk and see what happens.

Stalwart, I think the idea of solidifying exactly what I want in a relationship beyond the feeling of wanting a "normal" one as opposed to what I have is what I need to do.  I have many books on healthy marriages/relationships that I've been reading and so much of what I read often has me shaking my head thinking that he's just not capable of this or that, based on past behavior.  That feeling of trust has been stomped on big time on both of our sides (I only discovered his year long affair with a friend of mine that happened 4.5 years ago a few months ago) so we have a long way to go.  I keep asking myself why I am staying when it's been so painful for so long, and apart from the caretaker role I got stuck in for years and I keep coming to the conclusion that there must be some love still there.  In talking with a friend the other day, I talked about my knowledge that if we CAN get through this and rebuild the relationship, I imagine that it can be stronger than I ever thought possible because of having gone through what we have. 

I am continuing to work on me, knowing I can't do anything about his side of things.  I now know that I have to keep working on me, that it's a lifetime process not something with a beginning and end.  I'm excited about that... .becoming the best me I can.

Thank you both again.
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« Reply #9 on: March 28, 2015, 05:23:26 PM »

Michelle, Michelle, Michelle:

I am so sorry about the affair. I suspected that. That's actually why I was saying it can be dangerous to disconnect.

Honestly, I hate going back there and I know you can understand that. There is actually a tear running down my cheek as I type this out. I've gone so far away from all of that, that it's difficult to go backward.

My wife also had a one and half year affair with a coworker. It was what brought her down to the bottom of the barrel. It's also what alerted me to exactly what her problem was and her eventual diagnosis because of her reactions being so contrary to what they should have been given the situation. I didn't know it had happened but once it ended they went at each other until she felt forced to leave her job. It wasn't pretty. I only found out when the police came to arrest her the first time for harassment. She sent so many nasty emails I can't even begin to describe it or want to. That's when I found out. It was the second arrest, spending four days in jail with the arm and leg shackles being escorted into the courtroom that really broke her dysregulation and allowed her to come to terms with the repercussions of her actions. Her entire family and friends immediately deserted her for what she'd done. She was really in a desperate place. So was I.

I so know the pain sweetheart, the betrayal, the hurt and where it all takes you. It's a terrible place to live in your thoughts and it's all so devastating. I know it all too well.

I can only tell you what I did. Like you I knew well what the boundaries were in the future, laid them out clearly and knew I had the choice to leave if that's what I decided to do. It's not.

It comes to a point if you decide to go forward that you have to pick a day and say this is the day I start my new life and leave the old one behind me. No regrets, no holding on to the resentment, no allowing the past to negatively affect you and turn the page to a clean slate. That's what I had to mentally do. Slam the door on the past. It's not as easy to do as it is to script out here and I'm sure you know that.

It can be done though sweetie. Understanding all his reasons helps but there is no way that anyone can condone the actions. They're two different things entirely. Others without this disorder complicating it have done it sweetie, you can to if you chose to.

The past can only hurt you, and believe me it probably really hurts him too. Although most don't really show or talk about the guilt or remorse I know well they live in it almost everyday.

You stayed, and he knows that. Turning it around to something positive in the future will help to cement in his psyche that you are THE stayer and open up the path again to trust. I know it's so difficult and it's frightening. I also have been exposed to professionals not agreeing with my choices and having to work it through with my own children that are older for them to understand my choices. They ended up being really supportive but it was difficult for them as well. Two girls and they were both upset.

It really is about you choose and knowing it is entirely your choice and striking that vision of what you want and dedicating yourself to achieving that vision. It's possible when you learn enough about him to totally understand his thinking and reactions. Another real challenge to get it all right.

Bottom line is sweetheart you do deserve better than your past and by your own choices and determination you can have that. I know I've grown so much through the experience for that reason alone it's been a positive experience and the what it comes down to is knowing in your own heart that you really did everything humanly possible to make it work and if it doesn't know that for certain it is time to go because you do deserve better.

I hope you can find your way past the pain. It is a difficult path, but ultimately you have to in one way or another move past it. It's such a toxic place to be in.

I do feel for your situation and I really, really hope you find the strength to make the right decisions for you and move toward a better tomorrow. 
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Michelle27
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« Reply #10 on: March 28, 2015, 06:27:47 PM »

Thank you once again.  It's actually the anger and resentment that brought me to counseling when I found out.  I felt like I needed to immediately make a decision on whether to stay or go and my thinking was so muddled by the lowest self esteem in my life.  The irony is that I knew with all of my being that he had had at least one affair and had already come to terms with that.  I knew how he would rationalize it (same way he would rationalize how horrible he treated me and my daughter from my first marriage) and how messed up his thinking was.  Knowing that was part of why I began disconnecting when I did.  And yet, I wasn't nearly as upset as when I found out the details... .it was with an acquaintance/friend of mine and it happened precisely during the time I was scrambling to get us help (3 different marriage counselors, begging him to see an individual counselor, signing us up for a couple's communication course, talking to our doctor about it and talking to his friends and family... all of which were totally sabotaged and derailed by him, which he admits).  Upon finding out, I confronted the woman and went onto discover that during that time, when he was so horrible to me, he made her feel so good about herself that she credits him for giving her the strength to end an abusive relationship, and that she believed he was going to leave me for her. 

I had spent the last 3 years turning my attention to taking care of myself for the first time in my life and had lost an enormous amount of weight (140 lbs), changed my attitudes about exercise and gained a whole bunch of confidence in myself and what I was capable of in addition to a new circle of friends in the process.  But that newfound strength wasn't enough for me to handle what I learned a few months ago and I lost it.  Been in counseling since then and I learned that my "strength" was really from hanging onto resentments and anger and was obviously just surface deep.  I've been working on that since then and came a long way.  I also learned in counseling that I didn't need to make a decision about my marriage right now but have decided to give it one more shot for a period of a year with some boundaries in place I never had before.  He is trying too... .for the first time, listening to me in better ways, pursuing psychiatric care, taking CBT classe and requesting intake into our local mental health organization in hopes of getting DBT.  And yet, I still feel like I'm holding back because I don't truly believe he's doing those things for himself, but to keep me because I've made it clear we can't move forward unless we both work on our individual issues.  He's faked it before, walked through steps and then sabotaged it and yes, he admits that.  He also admits that he wouldn't do any of those things if I left him which is a lot of pressure on me.

During the period he had the affair, I was nowhere near disconnected.  I was in fact enmeshed and co-dependent.  So my disconnection was not his reason for doing it.  In fact, my disconnection happened when I went to counseling begging for a way to help my husband and the therapist took repeated sessions to convince me that it wasn't my job to help him, but I needed to take care of me.  I seriously had to be talked into looking after myself.  And, to be honest, I have to admit to my own affair last year when I hit my limit on not having my own needs met.  It was short lived and my husband knows about it. I know on some level that if we can get through this, we can be stronger than ever, but I'm so scared to open myself up again only to be hurt.  We have talked about this and he knows I need time but I can see it's frustrating him. 
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« Reply #11 on: March 29, 2015, 01:04:58 AM »

I'm too detached right now, and I think it's harder on me than it is on her. I have to hide it.

When I first started becoming significantly detached, she would freak out because she thought I was mad at her. Now there are times when I'm distant and she seems to snap out of it. I'm still trying to figure out why. 

I could be that I'm coming across as more strong-willed, or focused, or who knows what. There was a point where she thought it was better that we split up. The last time she brought it up, I had gotten so detached, I figured there wasn't much to lose. I straight-up told her that I wanted a firm answer by the end of the day so I could get on with my life. Was that the best reaction? No. But she hasn't talked about it again.

You mentioned the roommate concept. I threw that out in therapy once. I don't know if it did any good, but it definitely didn't hurt.

As for her love-bombing, I know it's the BPD talking. It takes some of the fun out of the intimacy. There are just too many dry spells and so many excuses. There's definitely some self-preservation going on.
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« Reply #12 on: March 29, 2015, 06:21:13 AM »

When I first started becoming significantly detached, she would freak out because she thought I was mad at her. Now there are times when I'm distant and she seems to snap out of it. I'm still trying to figure out why. 

When there is a big distance then it is much harder for her to project emotions on you and then getting validation through seeing you suffer. That leaves the other option i.e. dealing herself with difficult emotions which she is less used to and only falls back on when she really has to.

This is why boundaries are so important. This is also why getting boundaries right is so critical. A naive approach to boundaries is distance - but that stops other healthy stuff too. This is ok for a temporary emergency measure. The key to proper boundaries is to break the sense of control and not simply distance.
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« Reply #13 on: March 29, 2015, 06:34:17 AM »

I had spent the last 3 years turning my attention to taking care of myself for the first time in my life and had lost an enormous amount of weight (140 lbs), changed my attitudes about exercise and gained a whole bunch of confidence in myself and what I was capable of in addition to a new circle of friends in the process.  But that newfound strength wasn't enough for me to handle what I learned a few months ago and I lost it.  Been in counseling since then and I learned that my "strength" was really from hanging onto resentments and anger and was obviously just surface deep.  I've been working on that since then and came a long way.  I also learned in counseling that I didn't need to make a decision about my marriage right now but have decided to give it one more shot for a period of a year with some boundaries in place I never had before.  He is trying too... .for the first time, listening to me in better ways, pursuing psychiatric care, taking CBT classe and requesting intake into our local mental health organization in hopes of getting DBT.  And yet, I still feel like I'm holding back because I don't truly believe he's doing those things for himself, but to keep me because I've made it clear we can't move forward unless we both work on our individual issues.  He's faked it before, walked through steps and then sabotaged it and yes, he admits that.  He also admits that he wouldn't do any of those things if I left him which is a lot of pressure on me.

A challenge with learning new behavioral habits is that there is often some awkwardness, artificial, conscious or unconscious effort involved. Not saying you should not have standards but "faking" is not so different from "trying and failing". Some trying and failing moved you in a different direction and to the point where you plot a new and even better course. Some trying and failing moves very little.
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« Reply #14 on: March 29, 2015, 08:36:36 AM »

anOught brought up a really great point here and this was one of my very personal challenges moving forward when I decided to 'start over'.

"A challenge with learning new behavioral habits is that there is often some awkwardness, artificial, conscious or unconscious effort involved."

I can only speak to my own experiences and path. Sweeping the past (when there is so much of it) under the carpet puts it out of eyesight but only leaves a huge pile in the middle of the floor that is far too easy to trip over.

Sincerity is a huge challenge when there are lingering doubts. For some people insincerity is a difficult path to maneuver because 'it just doesn't sit well with who you are.' In my case I follow the latter. For me it came down to really having to (not justify the past - infidelity really isn't condonable to me) but understand the past and in some way rationalize it in your mind to compartmentalize it away.

I found so many times I was 'practicing' responses and interactions trying to move forward in a more closely knit relationship. It is difficult, but practice makes perfect. Having the constant wherewithal to use positives when negatives can so easily be a retort, was paramount to changing the dynamics around.

Three years later a constant is hearing "You always know the exact right things to say." That's where practice makes perfect. To recognize the need in another and meet it in a positive, validating and empowering way so they feel listened to, heard and understood takes time and practice. Bottom line really is that probably all of us hope for that in our lives. It's a necessity in hers, more so than mine. I don't struggle with the feelings of low self-esteem, the emotional bombardment of debilitating remorse or the constant and necessary search 'for self' that she does.

Trust is a really difficult thing to offer when it's been misused. "Once bitten, twice shy" Bringing back trust into the relationship I found to be the vital key to the first door that had to be unlocked to start the journey. I can honestly say I don't know which was more difficult to accomplish, trusting myself that I was making the right decisions, or offering her a clean slate on trust again. The latter is more easily accomplished I think. Setting boundaries, not in a way of threatened alternatives, but in a way of closely communicated goals of personal self-improvement went a long way.

Finding a place of both understanding the want and committing to it was empowering. I found taking the steps forward somewhat frightening with very little support or understanding from others (professionals, or both mine and her family members) as to why I would. They did come on board later though when they saw signs of hope and progress; and that was wonderful to have their support. 

None of it is easy, they are huge life decisions but the fact remains that committing to going forward (if you're going to stay) can't be going forward in a stagnated relationship that's constantly unhealthy. For me that can only lead to failure and breakdown in a life that's far too short to waste.

To make change someone has to take hold of the sail and change the direction. In my case who better than me if I've chosen to take on the challenge for us? I don't suffer from a mental affliction that can negatively affect that course like she does.
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« Reply #15 on: March 29, 2015, 09:18:51 AM »

Sorry for hijacking your thread, Michelle. My only defense is that it's on-topic.

A naive approach to boundaries is distance // The key to proper boundaries is to break the sense of control and not simply distance.

My W used to exhibit more symptoms related to her Major Depressive Disorder. That's when she kept talking about killing herself. Despite BPD causing more of a strain on our relationship, at least I can stop worrying about her suicidal ideations while I work on getting my act together.
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« Reply #16 on: March 29, 2015, 09:46:25 AM »

I have posted on this topic.  Some really good info.  Is in this thread.

Just an observation, part of the definition of codependency is that the codependent person is more concerned about the relationship than the other person.  Sometimes the codependent person is more concerned about the relationship than about their own self. 

We are so knowledgeable about the workings of r/s.  We have all read so much, tried so hard, been so supportive.

Even though it is lonely to be detached, taking care of ourselves is a necessity.  We cannot expect our s/o to take care of us. 

The issue that Michelle27 is struggling with, and I am also struggling with, is building healthy interdependency.  The balance between independence and dependence in a relationship.

Michelle27, congratulations on all of your progress.  Keep taking good care of yourself.  Enjoy your life!
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« Reply #17 on: March 29, 2015, 10:24:39 AM »

I asked my counselor about it last night and she confirms from what I've said that I'm probably NOT emotionally safe yet and that it's ok.  But I wonder if it's possible to go too  far in the detaching process and not be able to make a relationship work anymore.

Is it possible to end/destroy a relationship by being too detached? I think it is possible, but I don't think that is what you are describing.

Your assessment that deep emotional vulnerability and intimacy with your husband isn't safe strikes me as sound, given your husband's current state.

If the relationship fails due to the lack of emotional connection, which it might, I would NOT say your detachment is the cause. I would say that his limited emotional capacity and maturity is the cause.

If he continues to heal and grow, and you continue to put effort into your marriage, you will eventually reach a point of testing out more vulnerability with him. Trust your own judgement, and advice from your therapist that you will know when to start on it. Try to start small instead of flipping a switch and being fully open with him instantly, if you can when that time comes.

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« Reply #18 on: March 29, 2015, 11:57:32 AM »

I know there have been a few examples on this forum in the past (e.g. Steph in success stories), where the pwBPD was getting treatment and could recognize on some level when they were dysregulating.  This seemed to allow for intimacy building during the good times, then just riding out the rough times.

I would love to hear more successful stayers chime in on this. 

I'll chime in with my story which has its big successes twisted in with other things. My wife was always much higher functioning than what seems typically posted here. We got married over 20 years ago. Early on we had very rare fights at times when she was depressed and I saw what I later realized were hints of BPDish behavior. She did have a messed up FOO, and had already done some real work on herself before I met her.

About 10 years ago, we both retired early, started spending all our time together, and stresses built. Her abusive behavior really started to build... .and by four or five years ago I would say she was behaving in a way that qualified her as diagnosable with BPD. I was accepting a lot of abuse, and was teetering on the edge of actually believing the things she was accusing me of doing.

I started fighting back, found a few supportive friends... .and later found these forums and found much more effective techniques (mostly boundary enforcement). Pretty soon, I wasn't being abused, even though my wife kept trying to.

At one point, she realized on her own that she was the one behaving abusively, not me. This was HUGE, and I know few here on these boards have had that happen.

We were both working on ourselves over the years. Did some MC which helped. Did some mindfulness meditation. Did some other personal growth workshops. We both learned some tools. After one of those she finished a couple-year-long persona breakthrough, and stopped trying to behave abusively toward me. I was amazed, and impressed, and thought everything was OK. I declared her (undiagnosed) BPD to be cured at that point.

A year and a half ago, she was deeply traumatized by a death very close to her. Slipped into depression and anxiety... .darker than I'd ever seen her in before... .and STILL didn't resume abusive behavior. Six months ago she cheated on me. Long complicated story (chronicled on the Staying Board)

The last I spoke to her about our marriage, she had found some amazing clarity. She was honestly able to say 'It isn't you, it is me.' about ending it. That she doesn't believe she can deal with her own stuff while in a r/s with me, she's afraid she would sacrifice herself for me... .until she couldn't... .then explode out again, hurting us both.

I've gone through the most amazing personal growth in the last six months. Part of what she was able to do at the end was because I managed to disengage and leave her to find her own feelings without trying to control/influence them. Her honest assessment that she can't make our marriage work feels like something I *EARNED* with my growth, if that makes any sense. I was able to be good and clear enough that she could see that I wasn't in any way (currently) to blame for what she was feeling.

I feel like I'm ready to blossom into a new and better part of my life... .and I hope she does too, and I hope that someday we can be close enough to share that excitement with each other again, even though our futures are not together like our past was.
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« Reply #19 on: March 29, 2015, 08:59:46 PM »

There is such a goldmine of information in this thread.  I am going to have to save it for future rereads.

I don't have it in me to give all the details but after a huge dysregulation last night in which he disrespected the one boundary I put in place, I had no choice but to follow through with the consequences that he knew would happen and he is staying at a friend's house.  For a week for now and then we'll reevaluate. 
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« Reply #20 on: March 30, 2015, 06:38:57 AM »

I have bounced all over on this subject during my journey. I detached for self preservation and peace and quite. As i heal myself, I need less self preservation, my own personal strength and recovery means that the fear of conflict and eggshells lessens. Hence i am not as afraid of probing those deeper and potentially triggering situations.

Like you I found those superficial "safe' discussions completely dull and without effort. With lack of effort and challenge comes lack of respect as there is nothing to respect but smoke and mirrors. You need to be strong enough in yourself to go back into the smoke and see if there is any fire. You will not feel alive yourself if you don't, the grass will then start to look greener and your enthusiasm for the RS will fade.

Are you strong enough yet to deal with the heat of facing the fire? Don't rush in before you are ready, but it needs to be on your to do list if you want the RS to succeed.

Good to see that you are willing to follow through on boundaries. each time you stand by one you will feel stronger, which reduces fear of conflict. Fear of conflict leaves too many stones unturned.

What we are about here is not risk elimination but rather risk management.
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« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2015, 06:49:32 PM »

"love-bombing" me and I can't even enjoy that because I don't believe it's real! 

Michelle27,

Thanks for starting this thread.  Interesting read.

One thing I would like to challenge you on... .to think deeper on.

How would it change the way that you approached the r/s if you believed it was real?

Why don't you think it's real... ?

I'm one of those that has torn town an unhealthy r/s... .and is building something back in its place.

I've had to lead the way and be open an vulnerable... .and it has cost me several times... .but it has also paid off several times.

Looking forward to chatting more with you to help you figure out when it might be appropriate to take some more risks...

FF
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« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2015, 12:00:19 AM »

Thanks, Formflier.

I don't believe it's real because it's what I saw at the beginning of the relationship and when he crashed upon getting the news of his son's horrible abuse 9 years ago, it was as if a switch was flipped and the rages on a regular basis began.  I now believe that the person I saw when we met and in the good years was him becoming what it was obvious I needed then after coming out of an abusive (mostly physically abusive) marriage.  From what I've read about pwBPD that's why the beginning of a relationship is so amazing... .they become exactly what the other person needs due to their own lack of identity.  If I believe that he meant that, then I also think I have to believe that he's the person I've seen for the last 9 years.  He can't be both. When he realized he was very close to losing me last year, he "flipped the switch" again and started doing things he hadn't done in 9 years... .helping around the house, taking me for dinner once in awhile, etc...   He has also dropped all of his former interests in favor of suddenly enjoying things that I have had interests in for years (and he did not).  It feels like he's trying to become me in order to make me emotionally close again.  I am dealing with PTSD like symptoms when I see him begin to ramp up towards a rage, and he knows this.  When he's not dysregulated, he expresses how he knows he's made me feel emotionally unsafe in my own home and is making it a priority.  I set a boundary after years of carrying around an overnight bag in my car and dozens of times having to flee the house when he raged.  He has been telling me for months that when he dysregulates, he will leave.  We had plans and backup plans in place for this, and yet, when it's happened about once a month since then, he hasn't followed through.  I totally know that he is in the very early stages of getting help (which he does seem to want) and I can't expect the dysregulations to stop just because I want them to, but I can set a boundary that for my own healing, they can't happen in my presence.  He has agreed to leave when asked but on Saturday, he refused to so I did.  The next day, I asked him to pack a bag and leave for a week for now, and he did.  Over many years, lied about wanting help (yes, he's admitted this) and totally sabotaged it when it was offered (and yes, he admits this too).  He has confessed to being emotionally abusive to my daughter from my first marriage because after his son's (from his first marriage) disclosure of sexual abuse that caused him to crash 9 years ago, in his own words, "my son was damaged and I wanted to even it up with your daughter".  During the year that he was telling me he wanted help and having me set up various appointments with marriage counselors (which he now says he deliberately sabotaged 3 different counselors and a couple's communication course that I signed us p for) he was carrying on a year long affair with a "friend" of mine.  I have a huge capacity for compassion and forgiveness, and I know we could get past this if while he was working on his own issues I could depend on my home being emotionally safe by him leaving when he rages. 

So, to answer your question, if I did believe it was real, that he really did have the feelings he did at the beginning of the relationship and now (rather than what he showed me for 9 years), I would feel more ability to be open and vulnerable.  But almost every time I try, no matter how well I'm using the tools and validation, it triggers him into a rage.  And the cycle begins where I shut down emotionally.  I've spent a lot of time and energy both in therapy and in other ways (self help books, websites, etc.) working on the reasons I've put up with this all of my life and really made good strides in my codependency.  My whole reason for starting this thread is that I've disconnected emotionally a lot because of all of this, and I don't know if there is enough left to build it back up again.  The stories in this thread do give me hope, but in the meantime, the damage has to stop so we can do that.
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« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2015, 12:15:33 AM »

And the cycle begins where I shut down emotionally.  I've spent a lot of time and energy both in therapy and in other ways (self help books, websites, etc.) working on the reasons I've put up with this all of my life and really made good strides in my codependency.  My whole reason for starting this thread is that I've disconnected emotionally a lot because of all of this, and I don't know if there is enough left to build it back up again.  The stories in this thread do give me hope, but in the meantime, the damage has to stop so we can do that.

I have been following this thread with interest. I have been slowly detaching from my husband for years. I can pretty much pinpoint when I started checking out. It was shortly after he pushed me down when I was holding our youngest daughter. Prior to that, we would go through periods where things would get bad. I would throw a fit. He would get better. I would relax. Things would get bad and so it went. I can't let myself relax again even though my husband says that he is trying. Yes, he is going to counseling and he is trying. I don't see his trying as sincere because we have so many years of him doing just enough to get by with me. If I relax, then he is going to relax and go back to the way things were. I have tried to explain to him that I can't share with him because I don't feel safe with him. I can make one comment and he will take it and run with it so I shut up again. I periodically test the waters and consistently get the same or similar responses, which tell me that it isn't safe. I am at a point where all I want is peace. I have no expectation of ever being able to be vulnerable with him again. It has reached a point where we are coparents and friends and that is about it. I don't see myself getting to a place where I will ever be able to check back in and be vulnerable with him. Every time he cuts me off or goes down that path where I feel unheard and ignored by him, I detach a little bit more.
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« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2015, 12:48:43 AM »

And the cycle begins where I shut down emotionally.  I've spent a lot of time and energy both in therapy and in other ways (self help books, websites, etc.) working on the reasons I've put up with this all of my life and really made good strides in my codependency.  My whole reason for starting this thread is that I've disconnected emotionally a lot because of all of this, and I don't know if there is enough left to build it back up again.  The stories in this thread do give me hope, but in the meantime, the damage has to stop so we can do that.

I have been following this thread with interest. I have been slowly detaching from my husband for years. I can pretty much pinpoint when I started checking out. It was shortly after he pushed me down when I was holding our youngest daughter. Prior to that, we would go through periods where things would get bad. I would throw a fit. He would get better. I would relax. Things would get bad and so it went. I can't let myself relax again even though my husband says that he is trying. Yes, he is going to counseling and he is trying. I don't see his trying as sincere because we have so many years of him doing just enough to get by with me. If I relax, then he is going to relax and go back to the way things were. I have tried to explain to him that I can't share with him because I don't feel safe with him. I can make one comment and he will take it and run with it so I shut up again. I periodically test the waters and consistently get the same or similar responses, which tell me that it isn't safe. I am at a point where all I want is peace. I have no expectation of ever being able to be vulnerable with him again. It has reached a point where we are coparents and friends and that is about it. I don't see myself getting to a place where I will ever be able to check back in and be vulnerable with him. Every time he cuts me off or goes down that path where I feel unheard and ignored by him, I detach a little bit more.

You explained it better than I did, VOC. That's exactly it... .I just want peace too.  But I also feel like if there truly is no hope to eventually (sooner than later) check back in emotionally, I have to move on.  I can't wait for another 9 years for "maybe".  I don't even want to test the waters anymore out of fear.  I can't relax anymore... .been down that path too many times and gotten burned.  That said, I do see that it is possible, or at least it has been in some relationships. 
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« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2015, 01:01:26 AM »

You explained it better than I did, VOC. That's exactly it... .I just want peace too.  But I also feel like if there truly is no hope to eventually (sooner than later) check back in emotionally, I have to move on.  I can't wait for another 9 years for "maybe".  I don't even want to test the waters anymore out of fear.  I can't relax anymore... .been down that path too many times and gotten burned.  That said, I do see that it is possible, or at least it has been in some relationships. 

I have 4 young kids with my spouse so that is my reason for continuing. After 17 years of this, I don't think it is going to change. Only you can decide how much is enough. I am still detaching with the hopes of achieving peace. I don't want my kids to see the fighting and craziness that became so prevalent there for a while. No matter what happens with our relationship, he and I will always be connected through our kids.

I think part of being able to check back in is being able to put the past behind you. I have a difficult time putting the past behind me because his actions keep reminding me of the past. I don't know how to do it without putting my blinders back on and I can't do that.
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« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2015, 05:53:16 AM »

 

A quick thought... .question about the "realness" of feelings and actions.

Does it change the way you approach things if you put "for now" on what he is say and doing... .also on your impression of what he is doing.

Then... .throw in some extra interesting spice... .when you realize that he "cycles" or flips a switch much faster than we "nons" do.

If you put those two concepts above into your thinking... .how would that affect your decision to be vulnerable or not?
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« Reply #27 on: March 31, 2015, 07:53:00 AM »

My take on what is "real"

A pwBPD will paint you black, and heap abuse on you.

a pwBPD will paint you white, and heap praise and love on you.

Neither one is more real than the other.

Neither one is a healthy way to relate to another human being; the pwBPD doesn't have a core sense of who they are in either version.

Both are sincerely felt/believed by the pwBPD at the time.

As YOU grow and become healthy... .neither one feels 'right' to you.
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« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2015, 08:52:26 AM »

 

A little more nuance to add to the discussion... .

For the pwBPD... .it is real... .because it "feels" real at that moment.  The non will usually have a totally different take on it

Most nons look at reality... .and then figure out how to feel about it.

For purposes of this discussion... .the last little bit of nuance to add... .is that for Michelle... .it isn't real.  For her SO... .it is.

If there is a way she can keep her "reality"... .while validating and accepting her SO's reality is different from hers... .it may help move the r/s in a positive direction.

Also will need some acceptance that she will most likely be more accepting of her SO's reality... .than he will of hers... .  That's just how the disorder normally plays out.

Good discussion... .keep it up!

FF
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« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2015, 09:08:51 AM »

My take on what is "real"

A pwBPD will paint you black, and heap abuse on you.

a pwBPD will paint you white, and heap praise and love on you.

Neither one is more real than the other.

Neither one is a healthy way to relate to another human being; the pwBPD doesn't have a core sense of who they are in either version.

Both are sincerely felt/believed by the pwBPD at the time.

As YOU grow and become healthy... .neither one feels 'right' to you.

Which brings us back to the non as an individual are you happily independent or do you grieve/need a close "soul mate'.?

Each person is different in their personal needs. Neither is right or wrong it will come down to whether we are compatible to the inherent dysfunction that will remain if full recovery is not achieved.

I am somewhere in the middle here as i can be quite independent and dont have to share everything, and can take some of the fanciful thoughts as interesting without needing them to be fixed in concrete, just as long as I can see them for what they are. Neither can I live in total superficiality either, and so will push subjects into the trigger zone at times, just to keep it real.
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