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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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« on: March 26, 2015, 01:03:53 PM »



Really nice day outside.  Getting some painting and other small projects done.

Wife is leaving for a week or so tomorrow.  Taking oldest daughter to check out some colleges.

I'm looking forward to managing the household alone... .and working off some projects I've been wanting to get to.

Yesterday seemed to be a gripey high stress day for her.  I validated a little... .and went about my business.  Luckily I was in a good place... had plenty of sleep.  It makes a world of difference.

Hope you guys are all looking forward to a good weekend!

FF
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« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2015, 01:08:47 PM »

Nice weather hear too (SoCal), but that is not too unusual.  Looking forward to a good weekend.  Wife is working out of town for the weekend so I get to have some fun time with my daughters without any distractions or worries.
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If you act like a victim and blame the other person, you're missing an opportunity to grow.

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« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2015, 01:52:47 PM »

Glad you will get some time to yourself, flier! I'm going to have a great weekend. It's gonna be in the 70s here, and it's my daughter's 15th birthday Smiling (click to insert in post) I am taking to her to a pottery class where we can create and paint a keepsake Smiling (click to insert in post) It's going to be a fun surprise Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2015, 02:08:12 PM »

  I am taking to her to a pottery class where we can create and paint a keepsake Smiling (click to insert in post) It's going to be a fun surprise Smiling (click to insert in post)

Nice! Are you working on the same one... or each going to make your own creation?
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« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2015, 02:18:24 PM »

Sounds blissful Smiling (click to insert in post)  Hopefully while your W is away, she won't blow up your phone.  You need the break.
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« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2015, 02:29:30 PM »

Sounds blissful Smiling (click to insert in post)  Hopefully while your W is away, she won't blow up your phone.  You need the break.

Phone "blowing up" got put to bed about a year ago.

I just stopped responding.  We were in MC... .discussed it some.  But after a while she stopped trying. 

Much better. 

Text is strictly logistics now.  Maybe 5% r/s stuff... .if that
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« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 03:53:47 PM »

@formflier good for you for putting that phone part to bed! My H tried that first few years... I put my foot down on that as well.

We are making our own, they have some 'samples' to choose from, from which an instructor will teach and help us with it Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 03:56:40 PM »

 

Several years back... .when my oldest daughter was in 4th grade... .I took her and a bunch of her friends to a pottery place for her birthday. 

We did the standard cake and stuff... but the activity was that we all got to make a small piece of pottery.  Was a lot of fun.  They had tons of things to decorate with there... .those girls were pretty creative!

ff
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« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 04:41:26 PM »

That's so neat! My kiddo is pretty creative, she's a writer and drawer, so I thought this activity would be right up her ally, plus I get a keepsake! heehee
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« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 04:44:47 PM »

That's so neat! My kiddo is pretty creative, she's a writer and drawer, so I thought this activity would be right up her ally, plus I get a keepsake! heehee

My oldest kinda dropped the creative thing... .and is totally focused on horses.  Ok by me.

3rd grade daughter can seriously draw good... .sings good... .always seems to have a neat idea.

And... can she talk... .wow.

We joke that her future hubby better have a big set of ears!

ff
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« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 04:56:10 PM »

That's so neat! My kiddo is pretty creative, she's a writer and drawer, so I thought this activity would be right up her ally, plus I get a keepsake! heehee

My oldest kinda dropped the creative thing... .and is totally focused on horses.  Ok by me.

3rd grade daughter can seriously draw good... .sings good... .always seems to have a neat idea.

And... can she talk... .wow.

We joke that her future hubby better have a big set of ears!

ff

Hee hee Smiling (click to insert in post) I think it's so cool that kids have their own personalities. That seems obvious, since they are different people, but I love celebrating the differences. My D15 is into anime, writing, drawing... .and she does them well. My S10 is Asperger's love science and math. He really enjoys origami and making things out of 'trash' ie cardboard, egg cartons, plastic cups, etc.

Since the time D15 was little she wanted to be an animal cop, and has not changed her mind yet. My S10 recently told me he wants to be a scientist so he can clone humans for experiments, but he's afraid he "might go mad and start experimenting with radiation, so he might just stick to his creations." *giggles*
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« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 08:12:12 PM »

 

Well... .I probably jinxed myself.  I really don't believe in that... .but the evening went to crap.  

I'm not triggered... .but determined.  Even though she is leaving tomorrow... .I'm going to get in to the "control" subject with my wife...  If she flips out... .so be it.

So... .on Tuesdays and Thursdays are "karate nights"... crazy schedules.  I run the house and people come and go.  I don't attend class.  My wife does for a lot of the evening.

Anyway... .my wife is much more liberal with my parents coming over and doing stuff with the kids than I am.  I like my parents... .we just want different amounts of them.  Yet... sometimes she will complain about why they are over all the time... and the answer is... .you called and invited them.  Sigh... .   

My wife... several times without telling me... .involved my parents in picking up kids and bringing them back home from Karate.  I showed up and kids are gone... .that was first I knew of it.  She promised to make it better... .the compromise was that she would make sure parents understood schedule.  Of course... didn't work.  Screwed up my running of the house dealing with kids... .etc etc.  Not to mention being incredibly inconsiderate... .controlling.

So... we had a productive talk... and the agreement was.  On Tuesday nights... .my parents aren't involved.  If they ask... .they are told no... they have to talk to me.  There is no nuance.

So... .tonight I'm painting around the house (small projects) with 3rd grade daughter.  Wife sees this... it's been going on for a while.  I walk into other room... .come back... and several people are gone.  Wife normally would take 1st grader to Karate.  She took 3rd grader as well.

Of course... her phone is off.  :)addy's plans... .cancelled.

Several hours later... .wife shows up.  I ask where they have been... and she starts laughing... .funny thing... .we were at Karate... and happened to see a hair stylist next door... .and happened to walk in.  They could take us right then... .but we decided it would be ok to wait.  

So... I ask where the daughter is.  "I told your parents they could pick her up from Karate and bring her home to be with her."  And wife has to hurry out to go to Karate... .of course... ."no time" to talk because of choices she has made about the schedule.  My... isn't that convenient

My parents ask her... and not me... because I usually tell them no.  Not always... .but usually.  Wife rarely tells them no.

I'm not saying anything to my parents about this tonight.  We've gone down this road in the past... .and they have a valid point.  What are they supposed to do when one parent says yes... and the other says no.  They end up getting jerked around as well.

I am 100% confident I can start out and stay calm... for a while.  She may be trying to "blow something up"... right before leaving.  Who knows... .I really shouldn't try to guess.

If I start feeling triggered... .I'll leave the conversation.

If we come to some agreement fine... .I'll give it another try.  If not... .I'll speak to my parents about this.

Here is the thing... I think my parents should support me... .I would rather not put them "in the middle" of this.

But... .when I am in house without my wife... .if I don't want my parents over.  I will send them packing.

The BS of her figuring out my social and parenting schedule for me... .when she is not around... .is over.

I'm open to suggestions

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« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2015, 10:08:34 PM »

 

She was defensive... kept trying to change the subject. 

She kept changing her "understanding" of previous agreements... .

I kept redirecting back to my original issue and she finally... grudgingly agreed that on Tuesdays and Thursdays... my parents get told no.  Simple 

Wouldn't it be better if they came over earlier... .before... .NO

What if you picked them up... .and your parents stopped by later... NO

It's a simple... .two letter word... .that needs to be used more.

I was please to be able to answer her question... .when she asked... .but what about what I want?

I dodged interruptions... and ignored her rabbit trails... .and I think there was a moment of clarity as I asked her why I didn't make social arrangements for her... .when I was out of the house? 

That if I was alone and needed help... .I was capable of asking or dealing with stuff.

Sigh...

She'll test me again... .most likely... .I'm going to be in more proactive in not only explaining what I am going to do... .but what is NOT going to happen.

I'm tired... .off to bed.  Still looking forward to week with wife out of house... will give me time to strategize
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« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2015, 01:44:59 AM »

Yep. Right there, that is what I found works best. Don't go down the rabbit trail, don't get sidetracked. Know what you want, keep it on track and stick to it. No argument, just here it is.

Nicely done with the "No."
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« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2015, 06:30:05 AM »

 

Woke up good today.  Had good snuggle and some light chit chat in bed.  She is off on her trip in about an hour or so.

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« Reply #15 on: April 08, 2015, 06:33:48 AM »

Woke up good today.  Had good snuggle and some light chit chat in bed.  She is off on her trip in about an hour or so.

So... she is back from her trip.  The college visitation part of the trip was a success... .I think we learned some things we didn't know before... .those actually are putting me more at peace that this is a good move... .the right place for my daughter to go.

It was a nice break to be the only parent in the house.  I had a lot of fun with the kids that were here... .we had good talks... .they helped on projects.   I think good memories were created on both sides

I feel recharged and ready to "deal with" BPD drama.  Of course there has been some... .will start a  new post soon.

FF
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« Reply #16 on: April 08, 2015, 10:03:26 AM »

Uhm, formflier... .help me understand how your parents coming over or helping shuttle your kids around is a problem.

Anyway... .my wife is much more liberal with my parents coming over and doing stuff with the kids than I am.  I like my parents... .we just want different amounts of them.  Yet... sometimes she will complain about why they are over all the time... and the answer is... .you called and invited them.  Sigh... .    

... .

Of course... her phone is off.  :)addy's plans... .cancelled.

... .

So... I ask where the daughter is.  "I told your parents they could pick her up from Karate and bring her home to be with her."  And wife has to hurry out to go to Karate... .of course... ."no time" to talk because of choices she has made about the schedule.  My... isn't that convenient

My parents ask her... and not me... because I usually tell them no.  Not always... .but usually.  Wife rarely tells them no.

I'm not saying anything to my parents about this tonight.  We've gone down this road in the past... .and they have a valid point.  What are they supposed to do when one parent says yes... and the other says no.  They end up getting jerked around as well.

Your parents are only in the middle if you tell them they did the wrong thing when they believed something your wife said. As soon as you contradict your wife with them, you put them in the middle. And as soon as she contradicts you with them, she is putting you in the middle.

If you and your wife are busy fighting a control battle... .and your parents are smart enough to ask the one of you who will give them what they want... .well, it is gonna go this way. Honestly... .I don't see a good way out of this.

I've never considered what it would be like to raise that many kids... .but I expect that the need to schedule kids from place to place and manage the regular urgent kid issues is going to interrupt your time and plans regularly, no matter what you want or expect. For both parents, you, and your wife. Perhaps your wife has accepted this, and doesn't try to accomplish much that cannot be constantly interrupted.

It would seem to me that being flexible around things like your parents picking a kid up after karate would be pretty reasonable. Or from another point of view, expecting a large family to run as like smooth clockwork... .like an aircraft carrier flight deck seems like a recipe for frustration.

Excerpt
The BS of her figuring out my social and parenting schedule for me... .when she is not around... .is over.

Do you mean when she is out of town, or just shifting plans around while she's out on one errand during part of the day?
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« Reply #17 on: April 08, 2015, 05:13:42 PM »

Uhm, formflier... .help me understand how your parents coming over or helping shuttle your kids around is a problem.

My parents are great a lots of things... .but keeping to a tight schedule is not one of them... .they are in their mid 70s... and want to be grandparents... .not keepers of a tight schedule.

So... .when my wife creates a plan... .for what's going to happen when she is not around... .includes my parents in that schedule and my parents don't make it on time... .it creates havoc. 

On tuesdays and thursdays I shuttle people back and forth between karate class... .keep them fed.  My wife participates in class and goes to another exercise thing at same place. 

To keep me from having to pack up all the little kids... .my plan is to have at least one responsible kid at home... .so I can leave babies... .and just run the kids back and forth that actually need to go.

So... .when time comes... .and my parents haven't delivered the kid I was told they would deliver at the time I need... .someone has to skip class... .or everyone has to get loaded up.  Not that easy task... .if you are not expecting to have to do it.

Especially if my wife drove the vehicle with the car seats... .because I wouldn't need them... because my parents would deliver the kid on time.

If it happened once... .no biggee.  But... .wife has different opinion of my parents... .most of the time.  That's fine for her plans... .and if it goes south... she can deal with the fallout. 




Do you mean when she is out of town, or just shifting plans around while she's out on one errand during part of the day?

When she is out of town... .or planning to be out of the house.

In other words... she wants to be in control when she is here.  And she wants to be in control when she is not here.

And... .the kicker is that she has no responsibility... .because if her plans are followed to a T... .and it doesn't work out... .we should have known better... not her fault... blah blah blah.

Hope that paints a picture a bit better.

FF
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« Reply #18 on: April 08, 2015, 07:33:53 PM »

So you are saying that your wife wants to dictate every plan for the kids, expects you to hold to it, except when something comes up, in which case she expects you to make the change she would have wanted you to make.

And she likes to involve your parents, who often don't run on schedule, and expects you to deal with it when they don't.
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« Reply #19 on: April 08, 2015, 08:57:07 PM »

 

Close enough!

Will try to add more details later if I can... .

When she makes the plans for me... .they don't go well... .even if I follow to a T.

When I make plans... .by and large... .they work out.  Or... .I can tell right where the "chain" got broke... .and the next time it will go better... .or at a minimum the same link in the chain won't be the one that broke.

FF
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« Reply #20 on: April 09, 2015, 07:35:11 AM »

OK... .I've got the problem then... .except I want to add one other part of the problem that you seem to have missed:

When you make plans, and ask/tell/expect your wife to stick to them, you invalidate her, and they DON'T WORK OUT, because she reacts badly.

Even thought they are good plans, the result is the same--it doesn't go smoothly.

Here's the small issue--you are a logistical genius, better than your wife; you make better plans than she does.

Here is the *BIG* picture problem as i see it.

You and your wife are locked into a control battle over how to manage the kids, their activities, etc.

She feels invalidated when you tell her what to do, and reacts badly.

You feel invalidated when she tells you what to do too... .and especially don't like it when she tells you to do things that you 'know' isn't going to go smoothly.

You are doubling down by trying to force or convince her to use your superior plans. (trying to control her)

She is doubling down by telling you what to do all the time when she is away.


And here's what's going to happen... .as long as YOU allow the conflicts with her to be over which plans are 'right' or 'wrong' or 'better' or 'not going to work'... .you aren't going to resolve anything. EVER.

If you want to make things better, you have to take the game up to the next level. You have to address the underlying control battle.


OK... .before I offer suggestions on how... .do you think I've got the situation figured out here?

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« Reply #21 on: April 09, 2015, 12:01:47 PM »

 

Yes... .pretty much figured out.

Toss in a dose of BPDish stuff on top.  For instance... .this morning she approached me to talk about plans. 

Went well for 15 minutes... .I answered questions about a few things... .very pleasant and proper.  Couldn't have asked for better.

Then she started to say that "we" should make decisions... .vice her make them... .or me make them.  I agreed... and listened.

At that point... .it started to go off the rails as she rewrote history.  "I" was the one that made the plans on what to do last week while she was gone (house projects)... .even though she told me to do something else.  Complete falsehood.

Before she left we had chatted about with less kids... .especially younger ones... .I can tear up some rooms... .and get after it.  We talked about other things on the list that might slide some... .while house stuff was a priority. 

She seemed happy with it... .no negativity at all.  I know better than to ask for a declarative statement... ."I FF wife am in agreement with "our" plan".  I've tried that before... .did it work... .nope.

Through the week we chatted... .and she was aware of goings on.

When she came back... .she was impressed... .first day back was great day.

There are a couple small punch list type items to finish up... .I've been doing those and working on finalizing taxes since she is back home.

Anyway... .she now says she didn't want the stuff done that was done last week... .although she says she is grateful it is done and looks great.  But it was my plan... .I ignored her input and did what I wanted.

Again... .complete... utter fantasy.

I didn't pick up the stick and fight with it. 

Anyway... .she now wants me to go to a house that we have that is a 2 day drive from here and install windows and siding... .that is master plan to get our finances fixed.  (she was just at this house on her trip).  I need to go right now and get that done. 

I can see that happening in a couple weeks... .but I want to wrap up (actually finish) the things in work now.  Two weeks ago... .her "big idea" was that we actually finish up projects before starting new ones... I agreed with it.

So... .what I see is the truth... .is on some of the big picture items... .(where I spend my time and effort)... .we agreed a couple weeks ago and I'm finishing that off.  She says it was all my idea and I didn't listen to her.

Again... I didn't fight.

So... she went for the "I know how you do things... ."  and started lecturing me... .about a "half dysreg" about how I don't do this at work... .and started listing off how I did my job and organized things for the county.

Then she used that as "proof" as why I should listen to her.  I used MC tools to try to slow her down... she had 5-6 "points" or "proofs" in the air at once... .all about how I think and how I did my job.  All were fantasy... and about 180 from how I actually do my job and think.

I expressed that I was having a hard time following this and needed to slow the conversation down.  She sped up... .I said "I'm too confused to continue this conversation... ."  Got up and walked out of room.

She got louder and talked to herself in the room for about 5 minutes after I left.

I gave it 10 minutes or so and came down to work on a punch list item.

She took a shower.

So... maybe 30 minutes later she is in kitchen... .I give her a touch as I go by... .seems fine.  Came back by... .gave her hug and kiss on neck... .told her I loved her.  (a bit iffy response)

After I left the room she muttered loudly about not listening to her... .I understood about a 1/3 of what she said from a couple rooms away.

15-20 minutes later... .you would have never known it happened. 

Hmmm     

So... .long winded way of saying you basically have it right.

FF

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« Reply #22 on: April 09, 2015, 12:03:56 PM »

 

Ground zero for the control thing... .

When we were still farming... .we did share much better when I was home... .and when I was deployed... .she had control.

Morning chores became disastrous and she asked me for help... .

Chores weren't getting done properly and kids had hurried breakfast... .no family time.

I asked how much time she needed/wanted... .she wanted 30 minutes "back".  Getting kids up 30 min earlier is not a go.

Anyway... .after about a week of me working with kids.  It was all straightened out.  We got our 30 minutes back before they got  on school bus... .had nice family breakfast together.

She was happy about it for a couple of days... .then big dysreg.  This was around 2011-12 timeframe.  She started asserting herself much more... that I didn't deserve to be listened to... .because of all the stuff I had done ... blah blah blah.

Before then... .it was a much more collegial attitude about figuring out what kids would do.

Not sure if this story helps paint a picture... .but... .as far as I'm concerned... this was ground zero.

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« Reply #23 on: April 09, 2015, 12:24:59 PM »

OK, now that we've established that the fundamental structure is a control battle between you and your wife... .lets talk strategy, before we get into tactics and details.

I see one big strategic path for you in this control battle:

Reduce the number of "joint" responsibilities and decisions that can have a control battle over them.

So work on re-defining things in your own mind--what joint issues can you simply cede to your wife? If you let her win, it isn't a control battle!

Also, which things are your domain, and simply not up for discussion and argument with your wife?

For example, if you are working on home improvements, you choose what you will work on and do it.

Do you think you can re-define a significant number of control battles out of existence this way?
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« Reply #24 on: April 09, 2015, 12:27:52 PM »

 

Last "oil and water" thing.

My wife tells people what do to... .if she is standing over the kids... .she is very good at getting things done.  I see this behavior as very "queeny" in the BPD world... .but if the measure is do things get done.  They do.

The moment she wanders off... .the kids relax and stuff slows down.  She reappears and chews a$$ for how lazy they are.

I train my kids how to accomplish things.

I will take a kid and show one of the olders how to fix a fence (for example).  We talk about pros and cons of different methods... and I ask how they would do it.  Once I feel that they have a grasp and it is possible for them to pull it off alone.  I kick them out on their own.

Me:  There is the broken fence... .there are your two younger brothers... .there is the skidsteer... there is the barn with other tools.  I'll be back in two hours to check your work.  (If I figured it should be a 1 hour job).  

Even if they did it in a way that I wouldn't... .but it works... .go with it.  The "measure" is that it must work.

Last story:  I had lectured my oldest son (now and engineering student) about 4 to 5 years ago to not run the skidsteer out of diesel.  Repriming our model sucked... .bigtime.  He had helped me once... .but helped as it he handed me things... .and promised not to tell others the cuss words I said.

Anyway... .I'm deployed to central america.  I call home to respond to an email for help.  He ran it out of diesel (fuel gauge tricky).  

No lecture... .I just reminded him where the manual was.  Gave him a pointer... .told him I believed in him... .and he could do this... but it wouldn't be much fun.

It took him half a day... .but he got it started.  For a 14 year old teenager... .that was a huge confidence boost.

He never ran it out again... .and he made sure the youngers didn't run it out either.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)  Smiling (click to insert in post)

Looking forward to your ideas... .I'll quit telling stories now

FF

this was cross post with your post above
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« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2015, 12:36:05 PM »

Reduce the number of "joint" responsibilities and decisions that can have a control battle over them.

So work on re-defining things in your own mind--what joint issues can you simply cede to your wife? If you let her win, it isn't a control battle!

Yes... .somewhat this is what I am attempting on tuesdays and thursday nights.  Since she is physically not in house much... .I run it my way... don't want her involved.  On the other nights... .she runs it... .I help her and there.  My theory is that you run things your way... .I run things my way when I am here.  We we are both here she runs kids 90% of time.

Also, which things are your domain, and simply not up for discussion and argument with your wife?

For example, if you are working on home improvements, you choose what you will work on and do it.

Do you think you can re-define a significant number of control battles out of existence this way?

Yes... .we have been trending in this direction.  Although maybe we need to make the "boundary" a firmer or clearer one.

This would work much better for home improvement.  For kid things... .very touchy.  Some weeks she expects me to run kids more and make independent decisions.  Most weeks she doesn't.  Usually it is when her plans go wrong that I should have known better. 

I'm not going to let her do whatever she wants with kids... .that won't be ceded... .most other issues... .I'm ready to punt.

FF
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« Reply #26 on: April 09, 2015, 12:49:09 PM »

 

For instance:  She seems to want to attract "wounded children" to the house to be playmates to our kids. 

So... .the boy she was going to move in... his dad committed suicide... .is about flunking out of school... not much money... .

When she is standing over them... .it goes well.

When she decides to bring them over and leave them with me... .without me even knowing... it doesn't go well.

I hear one of my kids screaming hysterically (there is a kid cry that means he is hurt but alive... .I let them work that out on their own.  There is another cry that is about terror... .this was terror cry)  I go running downstairs... .and notice that wife is gone... .screaming coming from room where this boy stays when he comes over. 

Door is shut and when I go to open it... .it's obvious a human is holding it shut... .vice door being locked.  I tell them to open door and ask why FF kid is screaming.  Snickering from other side.  I demand door be opened... .and push again.  Whoever was holding it pushes back. 

I push open door... .the "wounded kid" my wife likes to bring over goes tumbling across the floor and I get to my 5 year old that is crying.  He had bit hit with play sword too hard or something like that... .no other sign of abuse or anything.

Kid claimed he didn't know I wanted in.  Wife doesn't believe it happened as I described it and was a "misunderstanding"... .I should realize that he has "daddy issues". 

Anyway I said that I would not be responsible for him if she was not around.  She huffed and agreed.  She left him with me again... .no notice... .she was just gone.  I took him home.  She flipped out... but hasn't left him with me again.

He rarely comes over anymore.

She thinks it is place of our children to help "fix" these other kids.  I'm all for reaching out... .but having kids in house that don't listen or mind... .doesn't work.  Having a kid that bullies and terrifies younger kids in my house... .doesn't work.   If I ceded this issue to my wife... .there would be constant stream of these broken kids over here... .it would be disastrous.

FF

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« Reply #27 on: April 09, 2015, 01:36:11 PM »

FF, I think you are going in the right direction. And I want to point out to an area of  UTTER FAILURE that you keep trying again and again.

You try to negotiate with your wife.

You try to talk to her about having a 'difficult' child around. She turns it into a fight about her ministry.

She leaves you alone with the child... .you drive the child home.

Boundary enforcement works.

Negotiated agreements don't work. (For some reason, she ends up not following through on her side, or remembers the agreement differently at a later date. You have a long and bad history there!)




Where am I going?

Decide in your own mind what is YOUR domain and what is HER domain, and what has to be a joint domain.

Don't discuss this with her. Simply act accordingly. She will be pissed, but figure it out.

Your other alternative is have a argument/fight with her... .fail to convince her... .and then get to the enforcement action, her being pissed, and then figuring it out.
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« Reply #28 on: April 09, 2015, 04:43:48 PM »

 

Much truth to this.

Hmmm... .more later
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