How to validate irrational financial thinking

[townhouse]

Well things were going quite good until this evening when our financial situation was brought up by uBPD SO.

Briefly we have just built three small houses on our large block of land keeping one for ourselves and selling the other two.

The talk started with him saying that with the upcoming sale of the 2nd house he hoped that everything was in order and that I would get back all my money that  I had invested. Now this took me by surprise a little and I answered truthfully that as he knew the project had cost more than we thought and that no I wouldn't get it all back but I didn't care because we had a lovely new home that in itself was an investment.

Things became escalated and I got yelled at. I was taken by surprise and didn't have accurate figures to tell quickly (we were having dinner) I said I could show him on the computer but he just wanted to 'blame' the messenger ... .me.

I guess I could have just told him what he wanted to hear (that I would get all my money back) but surely there comes a point when I have to tell the truth as I see it. But it has cost me... .insults followed by not speaking.

As you may have concluded, money is a sore point with him and although he is very intelligent and has many degrees... .professional success has alluded him because he always leaves any employment because he can't stand the people.

He likes to dream that things are better than they are and hates it when I bring him down to earth as I did tonight. I feel tonight was actually about both of us wanting the best for each other but he of course wasn't interested when I suggested this and just wanted to paint me black again.

So disappointing and once again I'm feeling very low.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

 

Townhouse,

I am currently in the process of downsizing my "side" real estate business with my wife.  For many years she was a big help.  But when BPD traits got bad... .and I was accused of doing things with tenants... .sleeping with them... .admiring them... .etc etc.  I had to pick the business... .or the r/s.

Money discussions are usually trick with me to.  I find it helpful to use vagaries... .

So... .in your case... .if I was you...

(h) I hope you will get all your money back... .

(you) "That's a lovely thought... .I'm sure we will do well... ."

(you) Say... .can you pass the tartar sauce... .this fish is lovely...

When you get home... .hand him laptop with spreadsheet open... .ask him for his opinion.  Or just hand him a printout... something like that.

If he regularly rages... .hand him the paper... .it's "less breakable" than a laptop 

Anyway... .I try not to hover... .let her absorb the info... .and see where that goes.

If accusations come... .I leave room.

Ever tried something like this?

FF

[NGU]

no I wouldn't get it all back but I didn't care because we had a lovely new home that in itself was an investment //

So disappointing and once again I'm feeling very low.

I has to be deflating having a positive outlook pulled away from you like that. Do you think he'll be hanging this over your head for while? Repeatedly bringing it up?

Your post made me think about why depressed or negative people remain that way. I recall it being about the brain, and possibly chemicals, neurotransmitters, neurons and/or cells.

(This is a horrible description of the analogy, but if anyone recognizes it, I'd love to read about the concept again.)

It's something regarding [nouns] shaped like puzzle pieces. The happy and sad ones are shaped differently. The sad thing attaches itself to [another noun]. The sad thing either stays attached or creates a distinct shape. The person remains sad, or feels compelled to remain sad, because the happy puzzle piece won't fit anymore.

Townhouse, I honestly don't mean to make light of your dilemma, but... .

(you) Say... .can you pass the tartar sauce... .this fish is lovely.

FF, that made me laugh.

[formflier]

(you) Say... .can you pass the tartar sauce... .this fish is lovely.

FF, that made me laugh.

Even funnier... .I have used lines... .exactly like that. I generally don't get of "scott free" but maybe there is follow up.

To which I say that I will consult the spreadsheets later this evening when it is convenient.

Once I realized that we where having silly arguments about what the status of a financial thing was... .if a "thing" comes up... .I avoid discussing it until we have a statement or document in front of us.  She will still get grumpy about that sometimes... .but then I will point out the number to the company that prepared the statement... and have suggest if she needs resolution... perhaps she should call them. (never tell them to do something... .suggest)

If she demands you call... .

Tell her you are satisfied with the statement

If she still demands... .

Help me understand why I should call on your behalf when I don't understand what your question about the statement is... .

Putting the ball back in her court has greatly reduced the complaints I get... .

[ydrys017]

Thank you for the post townhouse, but sorry you are going through this right now.  It seems that finances are a common trigger with pwBPD?  I'll share a recent experience.  

About 2 months ago, my uBPDw woke me up at 1AM one night to drill me about finances.  I had noticed that she recently begain opening every bill that came in the mail which was very odd since she hadn't seen or paid a bill in ~10 years. She has not worked in 14 years, and is a SAHM.  I assumed she was calculating our debt/asset ratio as a prep step towards divorce.  So, at 1AM she wants answers, immediately - and wants to know why a particular vehicle is not yet paid off when I promised (?) years ago that it would be.  And, why is our house not paid off yet (we are in it 14 years!), essentially why do I spend so much money on stuff like expensive sports equipment for the kiddies, race cars for 2 of them, muscle cars for 2 of them, ice skate lessons... . yada yada, how bad I am with money... . 

I instantly begin to JADE, it's natural - I'm a CPA and she has a Finance degree, the logic for us two should be easy right?  Wrong solution.    I'm now frantic, beginning to panic, as I see this one could get physical against me - so I tried to think of something 'big ticket' that she had requested, still JADE but does put it 'back in her court' per FF.  I gently reminded her that I refi'd the house 6 years ago into a 15 year with a low rate, the vehicle is financed with a HELOC that calculates into an extremely low finance rate because it's tax deductible, and her request to put $65k+ cash into house improvements would have put a big dent into the debt (I kept silent about 'smart debt'... .).  I was relieved and surprised that it stopped that line of complaining, it simply went to how horrible of a person I am... . But, that one line seemed to work that night.  

I tried it again during the next barrage of finance complaints a few weeks later - didn't work, so I just shrugged it off and went to the garage to work on the race cars!  Some days I have a thicker skin, some days I don't.  I hope you have a thicker skin today.  

[formflier]

 

How often do you get the middle of the night stuff... .

I used to get that alot... .very glad to be rid of it... .

[ydrys017]

For a while there it was fairly frequent, now it's not that often but that is because she is simply holding it back.  She goes to bed when the kids do (around 8:30PM) as a way to avoid me and continue the silent treatment.  However, when I come to bed later I know she is aware because she will roll to her edge and face away - every time.  Although she is a heavy sleeper, I believe that being alone with her thoughts knowing that I'll be coming to bed in 4 hours or so makes for restless sleep, and she catches up during the day while home alone - another reason why absolutely nothing gets done.  

I also believe it will happen more frequently when I'm being uber productive around the house - doing all of the laundry, cleaning up clutter, shuttling kiddies all over, planning meals / nights out, etc... . I used to do it all out of frustration, then did a lot of it incognito to avoid blow ups, now I do it extravertly - as I'm not the one with the BPD, and this stuff needs to get done.  I do it for myself and my family now, if it bothers her - well, she just needs to deal with it.  I will live in fear no more!

One more thing about Finances; it's almost like us non's are supposed to keep all of the finances and related decisions perfectly organized, logical, and have a crystal ball about financial outcomes - otherwise pwBPD are entitled to beat the poop out of us!  I grew up with very little, and learned how to manage money very young - well enough to work/pay my way through college and emerge with very little debt (that I paid off 6 years early!).  So, I just keep reminding myself that I'm not bad with money, she is a SAHM for goodness sake!

[vortex of confusion]

One more thing about Finances; it's almost like us non's are supposed to keep all of the finances and related decisions perfectly organized, logical, and have a crystal ball about financial outcomes - otherwise pwBPD are entitled to beat the poop out of us!  I grew up with very little, and learned how to manage money very young - well enough to work/pay my way through college and emerge with very little debt (that I paid off 6 years early!).  So, I just keep reminding myself that I'm not bad with money, she is a SAHM for goodness sake!

I had to chuckle at this. I have kept up with all of the finances since day one. Early on, he would bug me about finances yet wouldn't do anything to help me keep up with them. We had an accounting program on the computer so I told him that if he wanted to know how things were, he could input stuff into the program and it would generate reports for him. He did that for a while but it became too much work. With online banking, I tell him to log in to the account and look for himself.

I am a SAHM for goodness sake! And I work two part time jobs.

Now, I have my own bank account and pick and choose which account I pay bills from. If I let there be too much money in the joint account, it will likely get spent too quickly. I try to build in a safety net.

I have resorted to a lot of what FF suggested and have answered specific questions with, "I am not sure. We can check on that later." Or, I will say, "I am not sure. Why don't you check into that?"

And there are times that I will indulge in his magical thinking and say stuff like, "Wouldn't it be nice if we could (fill in the blank)?" Now that I have made him responsible for some of his own debts, he doesn't indulge in some of that like he once did.

[Grey Kitty]

About 2 months ago, my uBPDw woke me up at 1AM one night to drill me about finances.

... .

I instantly begin to JADE, it's natural

... .

Wrong solution.

Correctomundo. Prep yourself in advance for the right solution.

"It is the middle of the night. I can't have a productive discussion now. I'm going to go back to sleep."

And stick to it.

If she won't let it drop, go sleep on the couch.

You will have a little time to prepare for when you do have the discussion in the morning, or after work. And you will be a bit more calm, and able to remember that JADEing just makes things worse, etc.

[townhouse]

Honestly, this BPD is so complex.

The next morning I managed to say something like" look it's very nice of you wanting me to get all my money back. Let's wait and see the end result" Him... ."I don't care I don't care about anything." I said back something like " for goodness sake can't you be a bit pleasant." He snapped back " just leave me alone I just want to be me" I snapped back " so do I, I just want to be me" he gave me a look and I left the room.

Later he came into my little office saying " do you want to come for a drive in the van ( we have a sort of campervan) ... .we could go to ABC "(the nearest large town about an hours drive away.)

Of course I said Yes and we had a nice day. He only talked about politics but that was fine because he talked in a witty manner and not so negative.

I've read somewhere ( most probably on this site) that pwBPD seem to sense when they have pushed things as far as they dare. Maybe something about the way I spoke triggered him to be nicer... .Who knows.

Anyway, things are a little better again and hopefully I'll get a good nights sleep.

That's horrible about being woken up in the middle of the night ydrso017. I actually try to have a boundary about talking about financials at night... .Leads to too much anxiety to sleep well.

And FF I did get a laugh out of ... ."this fish is lovely" . Humour always takes the edge off the situation.

[formflier]

And FF I did get a laugh out of ... ."this fish is lovely" . Humour always takes the edge off the situation.

Yep... .! 

When you want to change the subject... .get their mind on something else... .best to hand them the subject.

Don't be surprised if they resist the change... .but... .at least you tried.

FF

[formflier]

"I don't care I don't care about anything." I said back something like " for goodness sake can't you be a bit pleasant." He snapped back " just leave me alone I just want to be me" I snapped back " so do I, I just want to be me" he gave me a look and I left the room.

Townhouse,

How often does stuff like this happen?

Tell me about some of the tools that you have read about in the lessons.  Which one(s) do you think would be effective in this situation.

Maybe I'm putting the cart before the horse... .do you think this was an effective interaction?... .productive?

[townhouse]

FF you asked did I think this was an effective interaction. No I don't but as I said in my first sentence ... .'this BPD is so complex'

I do realise that I was Fadeing and not validating, I suppose I snapped back a reply out of frustration (doesn't this happen to others?)but what happened after ... .as I hoped to indicate,  was that for some reason he seems a lot less dysreguated than he has been for about 5 weeks. By this I mean he has hardly spoken to me for 5 weeks. I have tried to be myself around him, validate where I could and not let the situation escalate.

I have found that in the past there has usually been a trigger that has jolted him out of his current dysreg. I guess we and our uBPD SO are all different but the same in many situations.

I thought I could express myself freely on this forum but perhaps I have overstepped the line

when describing my SO 's and my conversations.

[formflier]

I thought I could express myself freely on this forum but perhaps I have overstepped the line

when describing my SO 's and my conversations.

You absolutely can express yourself freely!     Please continue this.

Posts like yours are very good for people to read because you can get a real "feel" for what the conversation was really like. 

So... .I want to be clear... .I don't think there was anything wrong or bad with your post.

As I was considering your post and situation... .I was considering some specific lessons to send you to.  Which was why I asked how often.  If it was fairly frequent... .then maybe this is something to focus on. 

If it is not... .then we all know that there is limited energy to expend in r/s with BPD traits... .so we don't want to focus on things that aren't a major element of the r/s.

Thoughts?


FF

[vortex of confusion]

I do realise that I was Fadeing and not validating, I suppose I snapped back a reply out of frustration (doesn't this happen to others?)but what happened after ... .as I hoped to indicate,  was that for some reason he seems a lot less dysreguated than he has been for about 5 weeks. By this I mean he has hardly spoken to me for 5 weeks. I have tried to be myself around him, validate where I could and not let the situation escalate.

Yes, that happens to a lot of us, especially when feeling tired and raw. I know that I get confused at times because my husband seems to respond better when I am a complete jerk. Sometimes it makes things worse but there are other times when it snaps him out of things.

It sometimes hurts when I post here and have somebody point something out that I could do better or need to change. I want to jump up and down and scream, "What the heck? Really? Are you serious? My husband can be a flaming jerk yet I am supposed to do better? I am supposed to do all of this stuff and he doesn't have to do anything but be his clueless, annoying self." Then I take a step back and try to remind myself that I want peace. I am tired of things being this way.

I have found that in the past there has usually been a trigger that has jolted him out of his current dysreg. I guess we and our uBPD SO are all different but the same in many situations.

The tools can help you figure out what the triggers are. It isn't easy at all and you will probably step on a few land mines in the process. It is this crazy process of trying to find the predictable in something that is completely unpredictable.

Sending you some virtual hugs!     

[ydrys017]

Per a previous inquiry, when I'm awoken or she wants to unload anxiety in the early morning hours, I have indeed stated that I need sleep and we can talk about it later.  The last time I did this, she started to dysreg and I responded to her '... to do what she needs to do... ' which resulted in a single punch to the back of my shoulder as I laid in bed.  Yea, it was a quick trip to the couch for the next couple of weeks!

I too will respond / snap back sometimes, it is just a natural reaction to something coming at you that is so illogical and irrational!  I am a freeze/flight type, so I am very quick to retreat and prevent a full escalation, but it's typically too late - the dysreg is in motion... . FF is good at dissecting an actual conversation and recognizing nuances that are easily overlooked when it's your personal experience.  It makes us think, and hopefully remember to perhaps react a little bit differently next time - the key is 'remember'!

[waverider]

Townhouse it certainly is normal for even the most knowledgeable of nons to lash out and say something completely triggering and then have to deal with the aftermath. In fact I do it at times simply because that is how i feel and i can't be bothered pandering to whims and sensitivities. As your ability to dig yourself out of these holes, or redirect, improves, the more likely you are to do it as it is less of a 'biggie" to deal with.

It is also normal human interaction, treating someone permanently with cotton balls does them no favors as they wont appreciate the difference.

I thought I could express myself freely on this forum but perhaps I have overstepped the line

when describing my SO 's and my conversations.

Why do you believe this not so?

The feeling this statement gives me is that you have self doubt issues. This maybe what your partner is picking up on, and transferring that self doubt to be about him, this could be what triggered him. He could have made this particular issue "the big thing' but it could be an on going underlying issue with him.

Do you think this is a possibility?

[townhouse]

Wow where to start. Thank you so much for all your replies.  So much food for thought that I am at times feeling a little overwhelmed but I will get there.

Last reply first... .Waverider

About my comment about expressing myself freely and over stepping the line. And with your consequent observation about my self doubts. I guess you've hit the nail on the head here. When FF asked me "How often does stuff like this happen" I immediately got triggered I guess that once again I had "said the Wrong thing". (Quick message here to FF ... .  This was my reaction and I do understand you were being kind and trying to advise and will discuss this with you further on.

Back to Waveriders' point. Although I have only been on this site for a few weeks I have been aware of SO's disorder for many years and have been practising not Jadeing and validating etc without knowing these terms to describe it. I feel I have been there for him so much, listened to him and spoken as best as I could... .but I say the wrong thing sometimes and as we all know this sets off a dysreg.

I could cope with these however since coming here I now know the term to use is that I feel my SO is a Hermit type and may leave for good at any moment.

I am amazed that some people are able to get the partner to discuss their relationship at all... .like setting boundaries. Most of the time I feel if I discuss anything of a personal nature with SO it could be the trigger that he leaves or gets me to leave as he has done twice.

Yes my enmeshment and abandonment issues are jumping off the page.  I am trying to learn the Lessons, to consider myself more and get through day by day.

As to whether he is picking up these issues from me and transferring it onto himself or if it is just coming from him... .I will have to consider this more.

I am very grateful that I have found this site.

Must leave at this point and will reply again later.

[formflier]

 

Townhouse,

   

My hope is that we can help guide you to the point of a deeper understanding of why some of the things you figured out on your own work or don't work. 

That way when the pwBPD traits in your life throws you a curve ball with some new behavior... .you will have a much better chance of dealing with it in a manner that doesn't dysregulate them.

Do you have an idea of what you would like to work on first?

FF

[Grey Kitty]

   Sounds like you are getting some great insights!

I am amazed that some people are able to get the partner to discuss their relationship at all... .like setting boundaries. Most of the time I feel if I discuss anything of a personal nature with SO it could be the trigger that he leaves or gets me to leave as he has done twice.

This was almost an aside, but it caught my eye, as it is about the exact opposite of how I went about enforcing boundaries as I learned here, but instead sounds like setting rules. Let me give an example:

Rule: ":)on't call me derogatory names."

To use that rule, you must communicate it to your husband. (you say you can't do this)

Boundary: "If you call me a derogatory name, I will leave the conversation."

To enforce that rule, you could (after being called a name) say "I won't be spoken to that way." and give him a chance to apologize/stop/back down, and leave if  he doesn't. Or you could just stand up and walk out of the room, without saying anything at all.

The more important difference is who has control:

Rule: He gets the choice--is he going to break the rule or obey the rule. He is in control.

Boundary Enforcement: You choose to protect yourself by taking action. He has no choice or control.


I picked this example even though I didn't know if it was an issue for you or not... .because I found that when I started enforcing boundaries to protect myself from verbal abuse (in all its forms), it made a huge difference in my life.

[takingandsending]

Now, I have my own bank account and pick and choose which account I pay bills from. If I let there be too much money in the joint account, it will likely get spent too quickly. I try to build in a safety net.

Hi VOC. Not to take this thread too far off track, but I was planning on taking a similar approach with my uBPDw. Pretty much whenever we have additional money, she finds a class or program that she enrolls in and away that money goes. This year, it is a large tax refund because of the thousands of dollars spent on her book and business that was funded by halving our savings. Once she heard the amount, she already began eyeing a training program that would consume over half of our refund.

I have had various thoughts, like putting everyone, me, her and two kids on a not to exceed discretionary budget for our hobbies or activities - son (violin, dance), youngest son (viola), me (nothing), wife (book, website, art class, EFT tapping class, life coach training, building wealth class, travel to Hawaii for self-improvement seminars). You get the point - her expenditures are not sustainable.

My other thought was to open a new checking account at the credit union and start putting a portion of my paycheck into that to try to protect me and the kids from financial melt down. So my question to you is, did you take this action on the down low? I am thinking that, as much as I don't like, that is the only way it may work.

[waverider]

I will pick up on this too

I am amazed that some people are able to get the partner to discuss their relationship at all... .like setting boundaries. Most of the time I feel if I discuss anything of a personal nature with SO it could be the trigger that he leaves or gets me to leave as he has done twice.

This does not come quick , easily nor overnight. To get to this stage you have to ease their finger of the defensive trigger. This takes time, and above all consistency and for you to be black and white with boundaries about what you will tolerate and what you wont. In effect YOU have to become totally predictable to them, so they know when you are having a go at them and when you are not.

It is not what you are saying that triggers the defensive blocking it is what they are afraid you are going to say or may be implying. For example if they get used to you saying i will not do XYZ (as that is your boundary) but then get used to you leaving it at that, rather than going on and maybe accusing or implying anything further then escalation is no longer the inevitable consequence so they will not be fired up to deny and defend whatever comes next.

Take away their fear of consequence. that is the biggest hurdle to anyone about opening up, fear of ridicule. To them the fear is much elevated

Boundaries do not need to be discussed as you wont get an agreement they will willing stick to, otherwise you wouldn't need as boundary. All you will get is a weakening of the boundary on your part. Of course enacting a boundary will cause an explosion, that can't be avoided, but at least you are choosing about what, and can be prepared

[vortex of confusion]

My other thought was to open a new checking account at the credit union and start putting a portion of my paycheck into that to try to protect me and the kids from financial melt down. So my question to you is, did you take this action on the down low? I am thinking that, as much as I don't like, that is the only way it may work.

It was on the down low but it wasn't all at the same time. What happened is I got a second job. When I got the second job, I opened the new account to have my money put into it. My pay from my other job went into the joint account. At some point, I quietly changed it so that the money from both of my jobs went into my account. My husband is still the primary breadwinner and makes the most money. I told him about switching the accounts after the fact. He doesn't really seem phased by it. I try to make sure to pay enough bills out of my account that the balance in the joint account stays where it usually is. As a result, it keeps us from spending too much. I really think having an account that he can access that doesn't have extra money in it is really helpful.

[takingandsending]

I figured that when I get my next pay increase, I will just put all of that into the new account. Hopefully, it will stop some of the bleeding.

[waverider]

I figured that when I get my next pay increase, I will just put all of that into the new account. Hopefully, it will stop some of the bleeding.

Has to start somewhere

[takingandsending]

Thanks waverider. That's the same conclusion I reached. Wish I had thought of it sooner, but I am happy that my life is taking new directions now.