New Beginnings & Boundaries 6...

[MaroonLiquid]

Nice work.

Offhand... .I think you let the current situation roll a couple more weeks before "pushing" to work with the triggers.

I totally agree.  The funny thing is, I'm at complete peace over this thing.  I feel like I'm actually handling her issues better than I ever have not concerned with any outcome.  Strange to say this, but I feel like her filing took all the pressure off of the situation.

I've been trying to think about how to broach things... .but ultimately... you guys need to get into some kind of counseling situation. 

Right now... you are the only one regularly seeing a T... correct?

Yes, I see my T again on the 14th... .

I would say let a couple weeks pass... .if she takes no action on the divorce... .well... .that says a lot... .and about 100% confirms that it was a provocation and not something she really wanted.

That's been my plan since the beginning.  Last night I went over and cooked dinner for the family and helped my wife get some things done for her business venture.  She was very affectionate and told me she appreciated how helpful I've been and that she loves me.  I'm trying to show her that I won't be led by her emotions, but instead be led by my convictions and beliefs. 

Do you think that using SET when she is triggered could be better.  I hate to suggest that you change things... but it seemed like your response was direct... .without much SE. 

However... .what it seems you did well... .is notice the trigger... .give a clear response... and move along.

FF

This is where I'm having the issue.  I notice the triggers, but validating that is diificult with her at times.  I could have tried and validated that she was conflicted about talking to a complete stranger about our "dreams for the future" and then remembering she filed something counter to those dreams.  I have no problem validating the "good moments" so to speak, but the "bad moments", I have been burned where she tells me, "You don't know me at all!" and things get worse.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Grey Kitty]

This is where I'm having the issue.  I notice the triggers, but validating that is diificult with her at times.  I could have tried and validated that she was conflicted about talking to a complete stranger about our "dreams for the future" and then remembering she filed something counter to those dreams.  I have no problem validating the "good moments" so to speak, but the "bad moments", I have been burned where she tells me, "You don't know me at all!" and things get worse.

No, you CANNOT validate that kind of thing. The whole point of that sentence is that she is contradicting herself. She's skirting the awareness that those two things cannot both be true at the same time. 'I understand that you are bats*** crazy about this' is completely true, and completely invalidating, and that is pretty much what your statement boils down to!

Even if she hits some self-awareness you haven't seen yet, and explains to you exactly how it is triggering to her, how it is a self-contradiction, try to say as little as possible!

What you want to validate is her FEELINGS. "You seem upset." is the farthest I could imagine going. In your shoes, I'd save validation for times when she isn't stomping through a triggering minefield... .and when you see her trying to play hopscotch into that minefield, look for ways to change the subject or clear the heck out for a while.



It appears that the list of triggering topics I hope you will simply avoid bringing up with her now include commitment to you, spending quality time with you (sans kids), money, and any future plans/dreams the two of you previously talked about together.

You've decided not to bring up the divorce filings, 'cuz any mention is gonna dive right in there, and I'm with you on that.


Say... .did she un-block you on facebook and tag you in whatever she said she wanted to do a couple days ago? (Another good one to notice and keep your trap shut about!)

[MaroonLiquid]

No, you CANNOT validate that kind of thing. The whole point of that sentence is that she is contradicting herself. She's skirting the awareness that those two things cannot both be true at the same time. 'I understand that you are bats*** crazy about this' is completely true, and completely invalidating, and that is pretty much what your statement boils down to!

That was kind of my point too... .

It appears that the list of triggering topics I hope you will simply avoid bringing up with her now include commitment to you, spending quality time with you (sans kids), money, and any future plans/dreams the two of you previously talked about together.

You've decided not to bring up the divorce filings, 'cuz any mention is gonna dive right in there, and I'm with you on that.

I'm learning to avoid those "like the plague"... .

Say... .did she un-block you on facebook and tag you in whatever she said she wanted to do a couple days ago? (Another good one to notice and keep your trap shut about!)

No, she didn't, and I never mentioned it again.  I figured it wouldn't happen and I was right.  I remembered what she told me a few months back that, "She didn't want to have to explain to people who thought she was doing one thing that she is doing another."  I respect that from a standpoint that it is difficult for her to have to confront that issue (kind of the same thing with telling that woman the dreams for our future and then triggering her).  I am looking at Facebook as completely irrelevant at the moment.  I hardly post anything on mine anymore, and don't look at hers.  I do post on our softball team page with stuff that is relevant to the team obviously.

[Grey Kitty]

Sounds a lot healthier about facebook.

I'd look at it as a toxic way to communicate with your wife... .and avoid looking at any of her stuff or posting anything related to her... .

And look it as a way to stay connected to other people, mostly far away, and something that is tempting for me use in unhealthy ways.

These days, my biggest use of facebook is chatting with long-distance friends on it. I like that FB Messenger and my computer have the same conversation... .so I can do quick/short chats on my phone... .and if I find myself wanting to write a book, I can shift over to my computer where I type a lot faster. [My phone has the Messenger app running most of the time. The "Facebook" app which gives me access to my wall is only up for a few minutes most weeks, 'tho I do spend some time surfing FB on my computer.]

[MaroonLiquid]

So everything has been good, and even talked to my wife on the phone this morning.  I texted her this afternoon and said, "Thinking about you!"  She responded an hour later with, "Have you signed the waiver on the divorce paperwork?"  I said, "No, I didn't.  I want our marriage to work."  She said, "If you don't sign it, then it cost me money to have you served."  I haven't responded.  I guess she is splitting... .

[MaroonLiquid]

So everything has been good, and even talked to my wife on the phone this morning.  I texted her this afternoon and said, "Thinking about you!"  She responded an hour later with, "Have you signed the waiver on the divorce paperwork?"  I said, "No, I didn't.  I want our marriage to work."  She said, "If you don't sign it, then it cost me money to have you served."  I haven't responded.  I guess she is splitting... .

I meant to put in my last post that I guess she heard from her lawyer today that I hadn't responded.  Yesterday was the 15th day.  I believe my answer was necessary because now she realizes she will have to spend more money and this puts her at a crossroads... .I'm still at peace.  I actually don't feel I'm walking on eggshells anymore. 

[123Phoebe]

Hi Maroon, it's nice when things are going good, isn't it?  I'm glad you've had so much quality time spent with your family.

I don't even want to get into the possibility or probability of whether or not your wife is going to follow through with the divorce... .

I am seeing a dynamic and it seems to be all or nothing.  Black and White.  Back and Forth.

Is this something that you're willing to continue the rest of your married life doing?  Wonderful, intimate time together (and as a family).  Sending loving sentiments.  Her threatening divorce, you not taking it seriously.  Is it something you can get used to or even want to?  Is it fair to her, when she's making it plain-as-day-obvious that she doesn't appreciate your loving sentiments?

Here's the thing... . She might not follow through with the divorce.  She also might.  There are pages upon pages of people on the leaving board who have been through similar situations as all of us.  In the event that she does follow through, do you really want to take it that far, where she's hellbent on getting a divorce with one of her reasons possibly being because "her husband never took her seriously".

Please don't ever forget that she has BPD-- a serious disorder of the emotions.

I'm really wondering why you haven't addressed the divorce with her yet?  She's brought it up plenty of times to discuss something about it, surely... .  And I mean other than you don't want it. 

[formflier]

 

Maroon,

I think you made a clear statement to her... .she knows where you stand.  I don't think the follow on text needs to be addressed... .certainly not via text.

Here is my guess... .and I stress guess... .at what happened.  And I'm speculating because I'm trying to figure out patterns... or possible patterns.

You send out a nice text... .she has a recent history of responding well... .so... .I think that was good thing to do.

However... unbeknownst to you... .she was already triggered... .grumpy... whatever... over the divorce... .it was going to cost her more money.  So... .she comes back at you over it.

I'm totally agreeing with 123Phoebe... .that there does seem to be big swings back and forth... .very white... .or very black.

Wow... .hang tough... .I'm glad you are at peace. 

 

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon,

I think you made a clear statement to her... .she knows where you stand.  I don't think the follow on text needs to be addressed... .certainly not via text.

Here is my guess... .and I stress guess... .at what happened.  And I'm speculating because I'm trying to figure out patterns... or possible patterns.

You send out a nice text... .she has a recent history of responding well... .so... .I think that was good thing to do.

However... unbeknownst to you... .she was already triggered... .grumpy... whatever... over the divorce... .it was going to cost her more money.  So... .she comes back at you over it.

That's the way I feel also.  I'm sure she heard from her lawyer. 

I'm totally agreeing with 123Phoebe... .that there does seem to be big swings back and forth... .very white... .or very black.

Wow... .hang tough... .I'm glad you are at peace. 

 

I agree there too.  I think she sometimes notices her emotions being all over the board and it scares her.  What I also notice is there is usually a big swing the weekend before I have my kids and has had them a week before I keep hers (keep them the following weekend and get mine this weekend).  I didn't respond after the,"I want our marriage to work" text.  When she got to the field for our game a few hours later, she was fine and asked if she could keep score for me.  We talked on the phone a few minutes afterward. 

[formflier]

  What I also notice is there is usually a big swing the weekend before I have my kids and has had them a week before I keep hers (keep them the following weekend and get mine this weekend).

Very good that you are noticing patterns. 

What is the status of your tax situation?

[Grey Kitty]

In the event that she does follow through, do you really want to take it that far, where she's hellbent on getting a divorce with one of her reasons possibly being because "her husband never took her seriously".

Please don't ever forget that she has BPD-- a serious disorder of the emotions.

I'm really wondering why you haven't addressed the divorce with her yet?  She's brought it up plenty of times to discuss something about it, surely... . And I mean other than you don't want it.

Phoebe has a real point here. If your wife says "I want a divorce" and you say "Yes, dear" and look back at your morning newspaper, that would be incredibly invalidating to her... .and what you are doing isn't very different.

Can you think of any way to have a better, more validating conversation with her about it?

I believe she is totally bouncing between painting you or the marriage black and white, or something of the sort. While neither is consistent, both are sincere (at the time!). You are able to validate her when she is being loving toward you.

I think this is obvious, but I'll re-state it anyway--pointing out her utter inconsistency is invalidating.

You *might* be able to explain that it has you feeling genuinely *confused*, if you can keep it about yourself, and she is in a fairly open place.

Here is an interesting discussion area you might try: "We are already living in separate houses with separate finances. How do you see being divorced as different from what we have today?" Do this with sincere curiosity what she is thinking/feeling about it, not as a rhetorical question, and not as a way to 'trap' her into seeing her self-contradictions.

[formflier]

 

Interesting thought.

Does Maroon bring this up... .or just get some responses ready... .for if and when she brings it up?

Here is my take:

If she pays and gets the service done... .then I think at some point Maroon will have to find a good time and initiate the conversation.  Having this conversation when she is painting him black... .is recipe for disaster.

I suppose there is the argument that if he has an effective conversation... .it may stave off her having him served.  Or... .what I think is likely... .is that it could trigger her to push forward.

There is a chance that she has it in her mind that you guys will get divorced, yet continue things as they are now. 

That is me thinking through the "aren't we better friends that we are married" comment.

For sure this conversation is one that Maroon needs to be ready for... .I guess my main questions involve timing.  It does also seem to go against the vibe of "don't touch nothing... ." since the family time aspect seems to be going well.

Thoughts?

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

Interesting thought.

Does Maroon bring this up... .or just get some responses ready... .for if and when she brings it up?

Here is my take:

If she pays and gets the service done... .then I think at some point Maroon will have to find a good time and initiate the conversation.  Having this conversation when she is painting him black... .is recipe for disaster.

I suppose there is the argument that if he has an effective conversation... .it may stave off her having him served.  Or... .what I think is likely... .is that it could trigger her to push forward.

There is a chance that she has it in her mind that you guys will get divorced, yet continue things as they are now.  

That is me thinking through the "aren't we better friends that we are married" comment.

For sure this conversation is one that Maroon needs to be ready for... .I guess my main questions involve timing.  It does also seem to go against the vibe of "don't touch nothing... ." since the family time aspect seems to be going well.

Thoughts?

FF

This morning started off well.  My wife texted me and we talked about softball for a bit and getting a hotel room together this weekend.  I decided to call her and talk about what she asked me yesterday about signing the waiver.  I just called her and it didn't go well.  It was a way for her to dysregulate and I realize just how confused she is.  I stayed very calm the whole time.  I asked her why we couldn't go to counseling to try and salvage what is between us.  She went off... .She said there is nothing between us.  She then blamed me for us not going and saying she has been asking for it for years.  I then told her that I got appointments twice that she couldn't make.  Her response was, "IN THE MIDDLE OF MY WORKDAY!  YOU EXPECT ME TO DROP EVERYTHING FOR YOU?"  I said, "Wife, those were the times you told me you were available and so I made the appointments off of that information."  I then got all the blame for our entire marriage (again), how abusive I was (the irony was she was yelling at me), and that I refuse to take responsibility.  The ones I loved the most were, "You expect me and my kids to live under your control, do everything you want and I won't do it anymore.  :)o you think I would have moved my kids and I out if i had any intention of working things out?" (This is not what she said at the beginning of all this).  The other thing I thought that was interesting was when she said, "It isn't costing me anymore money as I already paid my attorney in full.  So if you don't sign the paperwork, I will have you served."  Then why in the world would she text me and say it would cost her money?  She also said, "I thought we could be friends at the end of all this.  I'm not getting into this with you" and hung up on me.  Are you kidding me?  WTH?  I'm wondering if she had this idea that we would "get a divorce", then continue to see each other and try to build something that way to where it "looks good" to outside people.  I'm realizing just how confused and mentally all over the place she is (and maybe she is too).  It's sad.  I'm still at peace knowing I called and was calm and loving and still telling her I want things to work.  It still amazes me at times how pwBPD refuse to take any responsibility and would rather throw someone to the curb that truly loves them than get help.  It is almost like when things are going too well, she has to create an issue to dysregulate over.  Something else struck me weird.  She said something about us being intimate as "just sex" and that I've had sex with other people and should know what she means by that.  I said, "I have no idea what you're talking about, will you please explain it?"  She said, "I won't get into it."    :)o they not hear themselves?  I'm thinking now I should have let it go... . 

[MaroonLiquid]

Interesting thought.

Does Maroon bring this up... .or just get some responses ready... .for if and when she brings it up?

Here is my take:

If she pays and gets the service done... .then I think at some point Maroon will have to find a good time and initiate the conversation.  Having this conversation when she is painting him black... .is recipe for disaster.

I suppose there is the argument that if he has an effective conversation... .it may stave off her having him served.  Or... .what I think is likely... .is that it could trigger her to push forward.

There is a chance that she has it in her mind that you guys will get divorced, yet continue things as they are now.  

That is me thinking through the "aren't we better friends that we are married" comment.

For sure this conversation is one that Maroon needs to be ready for... .I guess my main questions involve timing.  It does also seem to go against the vibe of "don't touch nothing... ." since the family time aspect seems to be going well.

Thoughts?

FF

This morning started off well.  My wife texted me and we talked about softball for a bit and getting a hotel room together this weekend.  I decided to call her and talk about what she asked me yesterday about signing the waiver.  I just called her and it didn't go well.  It was a way for her to dysregulate and I realize just how confused she is.  I stayed very calm the whole time.  I asked her why we couldn't go to counseling to try and salvage what is between us.  She went off... .She said there is nothing between us.  She then blamed me for us not going and saying she has been asking for it for years.  I then told her that I got appointments twice that she couldn't make.  Her response was, "IN THE MIDDLE OF MY WORKDAY!  YOU EXPECT ME TO DROP EVERYTHING FOR YOU?"  I said, "Wife, those were the times you told me you were available and so I made the appointments off of that information."  I then got all the blame for our entire marriage (again), how abusive I was (the irony was she was yelling at me), and that I refuse to take responsibility.  The ones I loved the most were, "You expect me and my kids to live under your control, do everything you want and I won't do it anymore.  :)o you think I would have moved my kids and I out if i had any intention of working things out?" (This is not what she said at the beginning of all this).  The other thing I thought that was interesting was when she said, "It isn't costing me anymore money as I already paid my attorney in full.  So if you don't sign the paperwork, I will have you served."  Then why in the world would she text me and say it would cost her money?  She also said, "I thought we could be friends at the end of all this.  I'm not getting into this with you" and hung up on me.  Are you kidding me?  WTH?  I'm wondering if she had this idea that we would "get a divorce", then continue to see each other and try to build something that way to where it "looks good" to outside people.  I'm realizing just how confused and mentally all over the place she is (and maybe she is too).  It's sad.  I'm still at peace knowing I called and was calm and loving and still telling her I want things to work.  It still amazes me at times how pwBPD refuse to take any responsibility and would rather throw someone to the curb that truly loves them than get help.  It is almost like when things are going too well, she has to create an issue to dysregulate over.  Something else struck me weird.  She said something about us being intimate as "just sex" and that I've had sex with other people and should know what she means by that.  I said, "I have no idea what you're talking about, will you please explain it?"  She said, "I won't get into it."    :)o they not hear themselves?  I'm thinking now I should have let it go... . 

She just texted and said, "I had hoped that you and I could do this amicably in order to lessen the fallout to our kids. You continue to choose to make it very awkward for all of us. I guess cutting you and therefore your kids off completely is the only way you will clearly understand. I won't be physically abused by someone who says they "love me". I won't be used either. Sign the papers or don't sign them. Your choice."  I haven't and won't respond.  She wants a fight.

[Grey Kitty]

This morning started off well.  My wife texted me and we talked about softball for a bit and getting a hotel room together this weekend.  I decided to call her and talk about what she asked me yesterday about signing the waiver.  I just called her and it didn't go well.  It was a way for her to dysregulate and I realize just how confused she is.  I stayed very calm the whole time. I asked her why we couldn't go to counseling to try and salvage what is between us.  She went off... .

DUDE. On what planet would your wife respond well to a question like that? Of course she went off. You've already fought about being in counseling before. And asking about it implies that there is something wrong with her that she needs to go to counseling. Even though that is true, she isn't going to hear it from you and react constructively.

I was suggesting you ask her about what she feels or what she expects, and listen to what she has to say. That would have been validating.

If you want to improve/save your marriage, STOP ASKING her about areas where she contradicts herself.

Radical Acceptance--The woman you want to stay married to is completely confused and full of self-contradictions, and likely to explode when you point any of them out to her. Don't expect that to change.

[formflier]

Radical Acceptance--The woman you want to stay married to is completely confused and full of self-contradictions, and likely to explode when you point any of them out to her. Don't expect that to change.

And... .if you happen to be around her... .when she figures out a contradiction (such as when you are at the conference with her... and she was talking to that woman)... .it can go south as well.

My remembrance is that you did well with that.

Look... .this one didn't go so well... .can't be changed now.  Press on... .next chance you get... .work on finding a way to validate.

 

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

So I texted my wife to let her know what I found as far as a hotel for our softball tournament this weekend (as she asked me to do) and she responded with details on a different hotel.  I said, "Great, lets go with that."  She said, "We won't be sharing a room."  I responded, "Ok.  I see how sharing a room with you would make you uncomfortable.  It's understandable and don't ever want you to fee that way."  She responded with, "Just leave me alone please.  :)on't text.  :)on't call.  You want to "make me feel" something?  Make me HAPPY by signing the waiver."  Funny, I thought she had paid her attorney in full and was going to have me served whether I signed it or not.  Oh... .That's right... .Yesterday she said it would cost her money if I didn't sign it.  Make up your mind woman!    I didn't respond... .Next week I'm supposed to keep the kids again.  I guess she'll call then.   

[MaroonLiquid]

My wife justs texts me and says, "My lawyer just contacted me and asked if you are going to sign the waiver or not.  His number is on the paperwork if you have any questions.  We need an answer."  I refuse to be put under pressure.  This was after I sent out a team email asking for signatures from my players for my tournament roster... .

[formflier]

 

My understanding is that you have told her that you aren't signing... .as long as that is the case... .I don't think you need to answer a repetitive question.

Hang tough!

FF

[MaroonLiquid]

My understanding is that you have told her that you aren't signing... .as long as that is the case... .I don't think you need to answer a repetitive question.

Hang tough!

FF

I am.  It's almost like a continued "extinction burst" to see if I'll finally play.  Don't know why the pressure to sign the waiver, or a divorce is all of a sudden.  Emotion I guess.  It's almost like a no-win at times.  if I don't sign them, it could be seen by her as controlling, if I do, then I'm abandoning her.  Her text about "cutting my kids off" obviously was a control tactic to get me to bend to what I'm perceiving as she wants. 

[Grey Kitty]

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

[MaroonLiquid]

Maroon, what are your priorities here?

Fighting with her over whether you will sign a waiver of service is really ludicrous.

If you have clearly told her that you won't sign it, and stick to that message, then you are at least being consistent.

But really... .what are you trying to accomplish by being stubborn about this? Do you think that making her pay something around $100 to have you served will accomplish anything?

Step back from the 'game' she's trying to make this into... .and is having fairly good luck at getting you at least worked up, if not downright engaged on it.

What is your 'winning' scenario where you get what you want with your wife? And how is it different from what your wife wants?

From what you say, she doesn't sound interested in dating / replacing you. And you don't sound very interested in moving back in with her, 'tho she sounds afraid of it while dysregulated.

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.  I don't know what she wants.  She is very contradictory.

[Grey Kitty]

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.

Be more specific, what kind of r/s you want with this contradictory woman. Nuts and bolts daily life specific.

You could move back in with her, be an emotional punching bag, and support her financially, the way you did prior to being kicked out. (Guessing that doesn't appeal much... .and don't think she wants it either.)

You could continue living apart from her, but still spend a fair bit of time with her and her kids, just like today. (Complete with dysregulations and silent treatment and divorce threats)

I'm not trying to be a pain here... .but either of those things qualifies as "having a r/s with her".

Paint me a picture of a plausible scenario with your wife being who she is today... .that would be how you want to live with her in your life.

[MaroonLiquid]

I guess I don't understand your question.  im not involved in her game or at least I don't think I am.  My winning scenario is having a r/s with my wife.

Be more specific, what kind of r/s you want with this contradictory woman. Nuts and bolts daily life specific.

You could move back in with her, be an emotional punching bag, and support her financially, the way you did prior to being kicked out. (Guessing that doesn't appeal much... .and don't think she wants it either.)

You could continue living apart from her, but still spend a fair bit of time with her and her kids, just like today. (Complete with dysregulations and silent treatment and divorce threats)

I'm not trying to be a pain here... .but either of those things qualifies as "having a r/s with her".

Paint me a picture of a plausible scenario with your wife being who she is today... .that would be how you want to live with her in your life.

I answered you on my other thread... .

[Rapt Reader]

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