need help with a boundary?

[babyducks]

I could really use some help here.   I am not even sure what I need is help with a boundary, I have no clarity   on this one so everyone please dive in and tell me what you see.  I'm very confused.

First of all I have bronchitis and the cough medication is making me fuzzy headed.   I am not on my A game.   

Night before last my partner and I were saying good night on the phone.  We don't live together, my choice because it feels to me like our r/s is pretty volatile.

We've had a successful, no landmines conversation.   She is stressed about work, we talked about the upcoming weekend.

At the very end of the conversation, out of the blue, she mentions she is changing her work schedule next Sunday so she can go to the XYZ Annual Meeting.   This is so out of the blue it's kind of the equivalent of saying look a camel walked through the living room.   I'm startled so I say 'Why are you going to the XYZ Annual Meeting?'  I probably had a tone to my voice.   

I am on the Board of Directors of XYZ which is a local charity/service agency and have been for 3 years.   It's been my thing to do outside our relationship and my partner doesn't normally come with me, and hasn't attended one our events in about a year.

She proceeds to tell me if she changes her lunch schedule and does this and does that she can arrive around 4:30.   The Annual Meeting starts at 3 and ends at 6.   She is telling me this is happening like it's a done deal.   I suddenly realize I am in a discussion about the logistics about this happening before I want to be.   I am not sure I want this to happen, that I want her to attend at all and all my finely tuned early warning bells are chiming up a storm.

So I say something like I am not even sure that I am going to the Annual Meeting yet.   (Bronchitis and btw at this point in the conversation I am coughing nonstop.) And she tells me oh you always go to the Sunday events.   No, not always.   Frequently.   Because she works on Sunday and I don't have to negotiate it.  So suddenly the argument becomes you always go.   

At which point,  I stop the conversation by getting very quiet and saying we can talk about this later.   I hang up and I am pretty pissed.   I feel like my space/time/event has been invaded.  Yet again.   She has made a habit in our time together to join organizations where I am a member.   Adopt habits that I have, if I am a supporter of the local team, suddenly she is a supporter.   Maybe this is mirroring?   Maybe this is where boundaries come in?

Anyhow next morning I get email about how 'really hurt, confused and upset' she is about this and how she was left with the feeling that I don't want her there at all.   Valid.   I don't want to merge into amoeba like oneness.  Especially if the oneness is mostly her.   I'd like to have things of my own.

So I replied to the email and I didn't do a really good job of validating and using the communication tools.   Frankly I was tired of always using the communication tools.   Can't I just once say what I really think without tying it up with a bow on it?

In the email I said "I don't understand how you can decide to change things I am doing in my life and expect me to be happy with it."

Yeah.  Bang.   SO now we have a 'thing' going.    And she is telling me "you are being very angry.   Frankly nothing makes me angrier than being told I am being very angry.   This is old very well worn territory between us.    And it is definitely one of my buttons.     I think that like most of us I have a pretty over developed fear of anger, and have ruthlessly suppressed it in my own life.   About once a year or so, I do slip, normally when I am over tired or pushed beyond bearing and loose my temper.   When I do, I get a entire symphony from her about how I am such an angry person (this is no one else's interpretation) she can barely stand it and no one else sees how very very difficult I am.        I don't know maybe this is a push?

Anyhow I have another email this morning, she wants to get the to bottom of what's going on with me,  which feels like an opportunity to JADE and I should avoid it.   She is all sweetness and light explaining how she is on the side of the angels and once again I am the "pain in the ass to deal with".

I would really appreciate any feedback.   I feel manipulated into another no win situation. 

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

Babyducks,

Not sure if we've ever posted together before... .anyway... .nice to meet you!  

I tend to like to draw people out with questions... but since you've directly asked for help... .and since it looks like this is Sunday... .I'm going to use BLUF (Bottom Line Up Front)... .note... .this style doesn't usually work well with pwBPD traits... .they usually need "prepping" before they can hear the bottom line.

She wants a fight... .for some reason... .don't fight with her... at all.  Even if she shows up to the meeting


Boundaries:  Yes... .this is your thing... .sort of.  My impression is that it is an open meeting... .so... .she can go if she wants.  However... .it seems clear in the grand scheme of things... .this is your thing and you haven't invited her.

So... .I would make a couple things clear to her.  If you can validate a bit first... great.  

statements from you... .that need to be put in your own language... .add in parts from your r/s to make it real.

Try a SET statement.

Sympathy for her relationship frustrations

Empathy

Truth:  I am a much better partner to you when I also have activities independent of you.  (again... .make it you... but you get the point)


If you are not going to be working on Sunday I would like to go to lunch with your before I go to the meeting... .we could go to the new cafe at xyz.  (or you could invite her to something after... .)  

The abc meeting is something that I enjoy independent of our r/s.  Please respect that.  If you are interested in finding additional activities to do as a couple, I am open to that conversation.


Second:  I'm dealing with the "telling me my feelings" thing in my r/s... .I'm determined to get rid of it.

So... .when I get told I'm angry.  I act surprised and befuddled... .and ask if she is inquiring about my emotions.

Sometimes that stops it... .

If she is feisty and says she doesn't need to ask... she knows how I feel:  "Help me understand how you know I am angry... .when I don't feel that way at all?"

Sometimes that stops it... .or tones it down... .

If she escalates again... .I leave the room... .or stop talking about it.

There is more here I want to respond to... .more later.


Oh... .prep in your mind that she may show up anyway... .Do not react!... .what will that look like?

[babyducks]

Thanks formflier,  you've been a big help.   Especially in taking the initial edge off, which is where I tend to do a  bad job with.  Nice to  formally meet you too.      (I think we have passed each other on the boards before, I've been lurking for a while, taking a break from BPD.)

BLUF works for me,  honestly it tends to work better for me.   Captures my attention.

I think you are right, she wants a fight for some reason.   

Yes this is an open meeting.  The annual meeting is a requirement of the state where we tell people what we have been doing with their charitable donations and where the agency is going for the next year.   It's pretty boring actually.   Comes with a long power point display with lots of graphs. 

Truth:  I am a much better partner to you when I also have activities independent of you.  (again... .make it you... but you get the point)

The abc meeting is something that I enjoy independent of our r/s.  Please respect that.  If you are interested in finding additional activities to do as a couple, I am open to that conversation.

Oh Brilliant.   Excellent.   When she frames the conversation is such a way that I am reacting to her mood and emotions I have trouble turning things into a different vein.   This does that nicely.

I hate it when she tells me my feelings.  Especially when she tells me I am angry. 

If she is feisty and says she doesn't need to ask... she knows how I feel:  "Help me understand how you know I am angry... .when I don't feel that way at all?"

When I have tried things like its boomeranged on me.   She has said things like 'you are always so angry I can barely stand to be in the same room as you.'    That was in my pre-understanding BPD days when I tended to make things worse by saying stuff like 'that's nuts".       

There is a reason my screen name is babyducks, I am pretty much about as threatening as a babyduck. So I understand this anger stuff is more about her and her stuff than me and mine but I am having a tough time detaching from it.   I'd really appreciate any thoughts you would care to throw my way on that.

If she shows up at the meeting anyhow I can not react.  I've had lots of practice with her showing up in places that surprised me and everyone there.   I can do civil and cordial.  I am not chairing this meeting so I don't have to be on in public.  I was actually not sure I was going at all because of my bad cold.   

[formflier]

I have fond memories of baby ducks.  The last place we lived... .several years ago... .we lived on a small farm.  Lots of critters.  Anyway... .we get a phone call from some desperate people at our church... .needing a home for some baby ducks.  The knew we raised chickens... .so...   Anyway a pre teen girl at the church had went to the fair... .bought some baby ducks and took them home to her apartment... .yep... .apartment.  Anyway... .told her mom (when mom discovered them... ) that she "won" them.  Fair had packed up... .no way to take them back... so... .

Anyway... .  those guys were a ton of fun.  We had them about a year to year and a half.  Before taking them south to warmer climates to my wife's uncle's place... .where we still catch a glimpse of them every once in while. 

So... .ducks are awesome!     

 Especially in taking the initial edge off, which is where I tend to do a  bad job with. 

Why do you think that is?  Let's not get too deep into this right now... .but let's keep it on "the list"... .but down lower a bit.

BLUF works for me,  honestly it tends to work better for me.   Captures my attention.

It's my preferred style... especially in email... that way you know which emails to deal with first.  However... .in a r/s... .you have to be careful with this.   BPD or not...  

I think you are right, she wants a fight for some reason.   

They get something from it... .not sure.  If you can understand what she is trying to "satisfy"... .then maybe some validation can help... .or you can figure out how to satisfy it in a healthy way.

However... .you talked about boundaries... .this is a good place for you to be clear in her mind.

If she wants to fight... .she can fight... .that's on her side of the fence.  Let her anger be hers... .

The key is... .she doesn't control your emotions or your actions.  You get to choose if you want to fight.  Sometimes... .it may be appropriate... .but it's your choice. 

If you are in a good place with yourself... and you can express sympathy to her... .or validate a feeling of hers... great.  But don't "own" her negative emotion. 

Can you see a big difference in her "making" you mad... .and letting her keep her negativity but you express sympathy for that?

Yes this is an open meeting.  The annual meeting is a requirement of the state where we tell people what we have been doing with their charitable donations and where the agency is going for the next year.   It's pretty boring actually.   Comes with a long power point display with lots of graphs. 

I'm a government type... .even in my retired military life.  So... I also sit on lots of boards.

I really don't know why I look at my calendar sometimes... .I know what it will say... .another meeting!   

   She has said things like 'you are always so angry I can barely stand to be in the same room as you.'    That was in my pre-understanding BPD days when I tended to make things worse by saying stuff like 'that's nuts".       

So... .if she said that to you now... .you would say... .or react? How?

  I was actually not sure I was going at all because of my bad cold.   

Been a bad winter here too... .I'm about 2 days out of my cold... .actually feel zippy today... getting some things done.

I prescribe a nice hot bowl of chicken soup!   

[sweetheart]

Hi babyducks,

I want to come at this from a different angle than formflier because for me I don't think this is a boundary issue it sounds more like a communication issue.

So my take is, you both had a nice evening.

SO then tells you on the phone she has made plans to go to an open meeting you are part of, that she doesn't usually go to. This triggers you. You were angry about this, about your space and personal time being gate crashed. Your SO accurately senses that you are angry and don't want her there.

To me what follows is not her desire to pick a fight, but perhaps some confusion about why you are upset and what isn't being openly said by you. This triggers her. The situation escalates because she is still confused and you are still angry.

Can you see how confusing it might have been for her ? Rejection sensitivity antennas were probably on full alert and maybe still are.


It might not be possible to prevent her going to a public meeting but you can let her know using SET as formflier has suggested with the Truth part, about how much you value doing things separately and how this space enhances your relationship.

I also wonder if wanting to keep things from becoming 'volatile' means that in not saying what you want and how you feel, places you in a no-win situation. I understand how difficult and frustrating it can be when this happens. Sometimes even with the best techniques a pwBPD will always be triggered. It's important that your voice is heard also. 

[formflier]

I want to come at this from a different angle than formflier because for me I don't think this is a boundary issue it sounds more like a communication issue.

This is a good point... .and one that I should have teased out.

Boundaries are ultimately about what we own... .because then we can enforce it... .it's ours.

The public meeting does not belong to babyducks.

However... .what I picked up on is that it "feels like" a boundary crossing issue to babyducks.  It's her thing... .if she wanted her SO to be part of it... .she would invite her.

Babyducks,

Is there a history here of your partner assuming that she is ok to be at "your" events... .of "pushing" herself into areas of your life where she hasn't been invited? 

FF

[sweetheart]

Babyducks I just found myself wondering have you ever explicitly told your gf that you don't want her to come to this meeting ? Is it something you have already discussed with her ?

[123Phoebe]

Hi babyducks,

I am on the Board of Directors of XYZ which is a local charity/service agency and have been for 3 years.  It's been my thing to do outside our relationship and my partner doesn't normally come with me, and hasn't attended one our events in about a year.

I find myself wondering under what circumstances she has joined you in the past?

Are you feeling any better today, bronchitis-wise?  Hope so!

[babyducks]

Why do you think that is?  Let's not get too deep into this right now... .but let's keep it on "the list"... .but down lower a bit.

I'm not sure to be honest.  It feels like almost a panic response flight/fight, especially if my resources are overtaxed.

   She has said things like 'you are always so angry I can barely stand to be in the same room as you.'    That was in my pre-understanding BPD days when I tended to make things worse by saying stuff like 'that's nuts".       

So... .if she said that to you now... .you would say... .or react? How?

Well I am a little better with my responses and depending on the situation I would either let it go, or if it was ramping up would say something like "You're right I can see this is a very difficult conversation.   Why don't we take some time apart and let things cool off."     I tend to avoid the use of "you" "I" "we" or "our" unless I am accenting a positive.

[babyducks]

So my take is, you both had a nice evening.

SO then tells you on the phone she has made plans to go to an open meeting you are part of, that she doesn't usually go to. This triggers you. You were angry about this, about your space and personal time being gate crashed. Your SO accurately senses that you are angry and don't want her there.

To me what follows is not her desire to pick a fight, but perhaps some confusion about why you are upset and what isn't being openly said by you. This triggers her. The situation escalates because she is still confused and you are still angry.

Can you see how confusing it might have been for her ? Rejection sensitivity antennas were probably on full alert and maybe still are.

Thanks Sweetheart.   Yup you summed things up beautifully.   I felt my time and space were being gate crashed.  and Yes her rejection sensitivity antennas were/are on high alert.     That's probably it in a nut shell.

I do tend to hold back when it comes to saying what I want and need because we almost never have successful conversations when I try to express a need that goes contrary to what she wants, like this one does.

[babyducks]

This is a good point... .and one that I should have teased out.

Boundaries are ultimately about what we own... .because then we can enforce it... .it's ours.

The public meeting does not belong to babyducks.

However... .what I picked up on is that it "feels like" a boundary crossing issue to babyducks.  It's her thing... .if she wanted her SO to be part of it... .she would invite her.

Babyducks,

Is there a history here of your partner assuming that she is ok to be at "your" events... .of "pushing" herself into areas of your life where she hasn't been invited? 

FF

Hey FF

Yeah I know this is a public meeting and she can come or not.   I'm not trying to control where/when she goes. 

There is a history.  A huge history of her coming to my events.   And I suspect part of me being triggered is coming out of that history.   

Like many of us, there was a time when we were apart.   During our time of being broken up, she volunteered at the community garden directly across from my house, joined my place of worship, attended the same lectures I went to and visited many of the same places in the community I normally frequented.  Drove miles out of her way to go to the same grocery store.   She even chose to have the same primary care doctor.    So part of my reaction was #$% here we go again I can't get a moment of peace and quiet.

The other part of my reaction was that intangibles, the tone of voice and the attitude and the complete lack of interest in asking me if I wanted company or what I thought about this idea.  It was presented like a fait accompli which just landed wrong.

[babyducks]

It might not be possible to prevent her going to a public meeting but you can let her know using SET as formflier has suggested with the Truth part, about how much you value doing things separately and how this space enhances your relationship.

Well I tried a simple SET and I think it was too little too late.   

I said I could see she was hoping for a 'good come along I will save you a seat' type reply and that it must have been surprising and difficult when the conversation went in another direction.  I said I could see how my reply looked abrupt and I could have explained things differently.   I then said a version of FF's if she wants to do more together as a couple I was happy to do things we both picked together.   And then I said that doing things independently helped me be a better partner.   And that I wanted to keep this agency separate from us as a couple.

She reacted  negatively to most of that.   Told me I did nothing to clear anything up.  That nothing I said made any sense.   She said that several times.   I wasn't able to validate much of that.   I did tell her I was sorry  that she found this confusing.   which in hindsight probably wasn't the right thing.

She kept asking the same questions, why do you find it so surprising I want to go.  and when I answered she discounted my answer.  So after a while I said I'm thought we should stop this conversation and she said no because she was tired of always putting things on the back burner she wanted to get something resolved.   

She went back to asking the same questions, why did I freak out when I  mentioned this.   I said I don't really think I freaked out I was surprised and I have explained why.   

I finally said I am not going to explain or justify myself any more since you discount what I say.

I asked several times if she wanted to stop the conversation since this was going nowhere.   She said no. 

And then it went down hill.  I should have just stopped the conversation and extracted myself but I was trying to find a graceful way out and there wasn't one.

She finally called me dishonest.  Said I wouldn't even answer a simple question.   Said I didn't take her feelings into consideration and hung up.   

Over all I know I didn't handle that as well as I could have.   Still I am kind of happy I am not wildly upset and anxious.  I'm cutting myself some slack for being a human being here.    I've gone on about my day and got a couple of things taken care of that needed doing.   

Not a win by any stretch of the imagination but I am not beating myself up either.   

[formflier]

Well I am a little better with my responses and depending on the situation I would either let it go, or if it was ramping up would say something like "You're right I can see this is a very difficult conversation.   Why don't we take some time apart and let things cool off."     I tend to avoid the use of "you" "I" "we" or "our" unless I am accenting a positive.

Have you tried the "STOP" format

Sorry you feel that way.

That's your opinion

Oh

Perhaps you are right


At first I would religiously go right down the line.  Basically... she says "you are so angry... .blah blah yadda yadda"

you "Sorry you feel that way" (hush... .nothing else)

"yadda yadda wham bam bleehh"

you "that's your opinion" (shhhh)

you get the picture

After perhaps you are right... .if she is still in full tilt mode... .well... .maybe just walk out.

Try to be very "even" in your delivery.

FF

[babyducks]

Hi babyducks,

I am on the Board of Directors of XYZ which is a local charity/service agency and have been for 3 years.  It's been my thing to do outside our relationship and my partner doesn't normally come with me, and hasn't attended one our events in about a year.

I find myself wondering under what circumstances she has joined you in the past?

Are you feeling any better today, bronchitis-wise?  Hope so!

Hi 123Phoebe,  when she has joined me in the past it was usually at a social event, never a meeting and it was usually pretty loaded.   It had to be negotiated in advance and there was a lot of discussion about will So and So will be there and I don't like this one or what will So and So say and do if we come in together.   Gay couple, arriving together, always creates a bit of a stir.   People will talk just a little.   It's natural.

My bronchitis is a little better.   Still don't like the cough medication though.   

[formflier]

I finally said I am not going to explain or justify myself any more since you discount what I say.

There are some on here that say never JADE.  And... .if they are already on a tear... .that is best advice.  

However... .the FF version is to listen to question... .even if it's a whacky one.  Try to slow the conversation down... .think of your answer... .give the explanation once... .and never again.  

If they re ask... .either ignore... or state "I have clearly answered that... "  

If that doesn't recover or center the conversation... .probably a lost cause... .best to punt and try again another day.

Not a win by any stretch of the imagination but I am not beating myself up either.   

That is the key... .you did your best.  Looked back on conversation and saw you could do better... .and next time you will try to do better.

Noticing you can do better does not mean you did something bad... .

Good on your for that attitude!  

Hope you get to feeling better... .and enjoy the meeting!

FF

[babyducks]

Have you tried the "STOP" format

Sorry you feel that way.

That's your opinion

Oh

Perhaps you are right


At first I would religiously go right down the line.  Basically... she says "you are so angry... .blah blah yadda yadda"

you "Sorry you feel that way" (hush... .nothing else)

"yadda yadda wham bam bleehh"

you "that's your opinion" (shhhh)

you get the picture

After perhaps you are right... .if she is still in full tilt mode... .well... .maybe just walk out.

Try to be very "even" in your delivery.

FF

Form,

I haven't heard of STOP,  interesting.   I'll keep that one in my back pocket for next time.

[formflier]

 

babyducks,

How did you meeting go?  Is your cold getting better?

FF

[babyducks]

Hiya FF,

Cold is better.  I might live after all.   

Meeting is still pending, this Sunday.

My partner raged at me for and I disengaged.   

And very surprisingly she walked her way back from the rage.    Offered me an apology and an explanation.  First time ever she has done that.

It was a quite a learning process for both of us I think.   And had some glimmers of hope.

Thanks for checking in.

'ducks

[formflier]

Hiya FF,

Cold is better.  I might live after all.   

Meeting is still pending, this Sunday.

My partner raged at me for and I disengaged.   

And very surprisingly she walked her way back from the rage.    Offered me an apology and an explanation.  First time ever she has done that.

It was a quite a learning process for both of us I think.   And had some glimmers of hope.

Thanks for checking in.

'ducks

Babyducks,

I'm hoping you can spend some time and write how it felt to get an apology and have some glimmers of hope.

Is this the first time you have disengaged in this manner?

Remember... .we are all at different stages on our journey to "figure out" this disorder that we are dealing with in our r/s.  I think this experience that you just had would be a big encouragement to others.

Thoughts?

[Grey Kitty]

She reacted  negatively to most of that.   Told me I did nothing to clear anything up.  That nothing I said made any sense.   She said that several times.   

... .

She kept asking the same questions, why do you find it so surprising I want to go.  and when I answered she discounted my answer.  So after a while I said I'm thought we should stop this conversation and she said no because she was tired of always putting things on the back burner she wanted to get something resolved.   

She went back to asking the same questions, why did I freak out when I  mentioned this.   I said I don't really think I freaked out I was surprised and I have explained why.   

I finally said I am not going to explain or justify myself any more since you discount what I say.



I asked several times if she wanted to stop the conversation since this was going nowhere.   She said no. 

And then it went down hill.  I should have just stopped the conversation and extracted myself but I was trying to find a graceful way out and there wasn't one.

You know what wasn't working and what would work better. Perhaps I can help you understand why it didn't work.

We have something in the lessons about "How to get out of a circular argument." That is exactly what you were in.

She's not going to leave the circular argument willingly... .because she *is* getting something out of it. What she's getting is a chance to avoid her uncomfortable feelings by blaming you for them.

Anything you do that is 'rational' or 'reasonable' will point out that you aren't to blame for her feelings. Which will invalidate her... .and make things worse.

If you want to end the circular argument before it turns into a full-blown rage, you have to walk away... .while she is telling you that it is your fault, you are being unreasonable, you aren't listening to her, etc., etc., etc.

A statement like "I cannot participate in this discussion anymore." is the best you can do.